ACist Military Officer? What should I do?

[AWoodside]

Sorry if this isn't appropriate for this forum, please feel free to delete/move.

I have a bit of a dilemma that I thought some of you guys might have some insight on. I’ll give what I believe are all pertinent details about myself and my situation...

I’m a senior at a top ranked college (like #1 or #2 every year on those Princeton review things) and will graduate with a double major in physics/philosophy in May. I couldn’t get any financial aid for a few complicated reasons (basically my parents fall somewhere between grossly negligent and actively criminal on the ‘doing your taxes’ spectrum) and didn’t have many outside financial resources. I basically had to make a choice between getting paid to go to a state school or finding a way to pay the roughly 40k+/year to go to the school I’m at. For whatever reason I decided to take a Navy ROTC scholarship that covered about 35k/year and cover the rest with work/loans. Thanks to poker I’ll graduate with basically no debt, and a 5 year obligation to the Navy.

My dilemma is that I’ve basically become an anarcho-capitalist in the meantime. Before college I didn’t think much about political beliefs, but during freshman year I was friends with some activists and through conversations with them I was led to analyze what I thought about politics and decided I was a libertarian. Over the next three years, partly due to 2+2 and partly due to further/deeper thinking about the subject, I’ve decided that to be internally consistent given my guiding principles I’m pretty much by default an ACist. For obvious reasons this has led to a fair amount of internal strife. I’m just wondering what some ACist think I should do, and their general thoughts on the matter.

Some things to think about:
I’m 99% confident that serving in the Navy will be +EV for me. They’re sending me to get a masters in Nuclear Engineering (which counts as part of the 5 years… so it’s really more like 3.5 out active in the fleet) and given my intellectual interests I’m extremely excited about this part of it. Also, being in the military gets you a lot of respect in this country. Being a veteran will lead to a lot of opportunities down the road on top of making people more likely to listen and weigh fairly any radical opinions I might have. I’ve served on a submarine (which is where I’ll be eventually) for a month or two during the summers already and, bracketing all the AC-related qualms, I’m pretty sure I’ll enjoy it. In the event of large-scale war I think I’d be safer in a US Submarine than a major US city. Also, nuclear power officers make a pretty decent salary, especially given that I’m planning on staying single. Finally, military uniforms make getting laid a hell of a lot easier. This has been very true for me thus far even though I live in an extremely liberal area and have crappy ROTC uniforms.

I say I’m an ACist, which is true, but maybe in a weaker sense than some. Basically, I’m a nihilist with an extremely strong aesthetic preference for freedom. So if all else fails, I can rationalize my involvement with the US military by citing the fact that nothing really matters in a deep, ultimate sense anyway. That being said, it still makes me a bit queasy.

I don’t think I could make more than 50k or so a year in poker given my current skill level, which I suppose could be improved upon, but right now I’m not sure if it’s a realistic option. If I quit the Navy I’d owe them roughly 150k. Also, I did sign a contract with them back when I was 18. If I could do things over again obviously I wouldn't join the military, I'd probably get paid $500/month to go to my state school and apply to grad-school somewhere nice. However, I did sign a contract and I think reneging on my agreement would be a bit cowardly/distasteful.

Anyway, that’s a lot longer than I wanted it to be, so thanks if you’ve read this far. I’d appreciate any comments/suggestions/thoughts.

[BCPVP]

Depends on who you ask, I guess. People like Nielso will probably demand you kill yourself. I think that if you want to serve out your contract and then be done with the Navy, that's fine. We all have contacts with the government in one form or another that are almost unavoidable. I look at it as the government has limited my options so sometimes I will have to interact with it. If it makes you feel any better, Mises, Rothbard, and Hoppe all taught at state universities.

Ultimately, you need to decide what you feel is right. Btw, your "path" to AC is identical to mine.

[govman6767]

Walter Souchek said it best in the Big Lewbowski. (Nihlism)

That's the best part of america you can decide to to whatever you want.

Stick with the Navy nuclear Eng. is way +EV you might discover the bomb that destroys the earth.

[Nielsio]

I have a rather long response planned.

But I'd already like to say that you could post your question here as well:
http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/TopicsActive.aspx

There are many people dealing with similar type of situations.

For example there was one kid who thought about working for the airforce base in his local area.

[wdcbooks]

Honestly, I don't understand what the problem is. You signed a contract with all the terms fully disclosed in exchange for compensation in the form of tuition assistance. It was my understanding that voluntary agreements are the lifeblood of AC. You made one. Keep it.

[canis582]

C-

[Borodog]

I'm an anarcho-capitalist college professor at a state university, getting paid with stolen money.

Basically, I have come to peace with being a hypcrite.

Think of yourself as a mole in the enemy camp. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[canis582]

Chomsky admits that most of his salary comes indirectly from military contracts that MIT has. He even did linguistic work directly for the Navy during the early 60's, I believe.

[AWoodside]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I don't understand what the problem is. You signed a contract with all the terms fully disclosed in exchange for compensation in the form of tuition assistance. It was my understanding that voluntary agreements are the lifeblood of AC. You made one. Keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you’re right that this was voluntary and therefore a lot of ACist qualms are assuaged in a certain sense. I suppose the problem is that there is a way I can avoid serving in the Navy without breaking contract, which would be to pay them back for my education/$$ they spent training me in the summer (the 150k I mentioned). Right now this doesn't seem worth it to me, so in effect I'm putting a price on my principles. My life will be a lot easier if I decide to serve in the Navy for 5 years and then get out... so it looks like I'm off to kill people for money.

Referring to it as "killing people for money" may be a bit extreme, but I like to frame things in the most challenging way possible when trying to decide my own, personal course of action. I also realize that in some sense every person who lives in the US and doesn't refuse to pay their taxes is supporting the same causes I'm having moral qualms about... but there are abstraction layers and then there are abstraction layers. Also, paying taxes is coercive (if you don't men with guns will come make you/take you away) whereas my refusal to participate in the military would simply cause me a great deal of financial strife + the loss of the +EV aspects of being an officer I described above.

So basically what it comes down to is that I'm actively supporting an institution that I have moral qualms with (and I do have other options, albeit fairly -EV ones) but right now it seems like the net +EV is worth more than my principles. Framed that way, coupled with a healthy dose of nihilism, it doesn't actually seem that horrible to me. However, at an absolute minimum it makes me extremely uneasy. Also, I worry that I'll regret my decision post-commissioning, at which point I'll really be stuck because attempts to quit could result in life-destroying criminal charges (treason, dishonorable discharge, etc), jail time, or a host of other things that would basically compromise me for the rest of my life in the good old US of A.

I need to reconcile these issues in the immediate future or it wont matter anyway. I have to either find the courage to quit and strike out on my own massively in debt, or somehow come to peace with the apparent contradictions between my beliefs and lifestyle for the next five years or so. Hope that clarifies things a bit.

p.s. I'm not really worried about my ability to perform as an officer, regardless of whether or not I end up regretting the decision. I've had a lot of experience with analogous situations and always excelled, regardless of my personal feelings... so this isn't an issue. If I decide to go through with it and become a military officer I'll give the Navy what I promised them in my contract and I'm confident that my performance will be rated highly.

[TomCollins]

Just pretend you are part of a paid security force... unless you are a pacifist like Nielso.

[troymclur]

I really see no problem here, other than you complaining about the contract you willingly signed up for. Think about it this way, your mind will do much good in the military by offering ideas that are virtually non-existant in the environment. Why not see what you can do to help the military be a better organization rather than look for a way out? You're going to be an officer, after all, and that will give you the ability to make a far greater impact on peoples lives than if you were enlisted or not in the military at all.

[pvn]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I don't understand what the problem is. You signed a contract with all the terms fully disclosed in exchange for compensation in the form of tuition assistance. It was my understanding that voluntary agreements are the lifeblood of AC. You made one. Keep it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read the post, he has two options to "keep" his contract.

1) Serve the five years.

2) Reimburse the Navy (~$150k)

[MuresanForMVP]

"killing people for money" when you'd be a nuclear engineer? sorry but that's kind of a ridiculous way to put it.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, that’s a lot longer than I wanted it to be, so thanks if you’ve read this far. I’d appreciate any comments/suggestions/thoughts.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't overlook the possibility of your views changing slightly over the next few years.

Have fun Bubblehead /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if this isn't appropriate for this forum, please feel free to delete/move.

I have a bit of a dilemma that I thought some of you guys might have some insight on. I’ll give what I believe are all pertinent details about myself and my situation...

I’m a senior at a top ranked college (like #1 or #2 every year on those Princeton review things) and will graduate with a double major in physics/philosophy in May. I couldn’t get any financial aid for a few complicated reasons (basically my parents fall somewhere between grossly negligent and actively criminal on the ‘doing your taxes’ spectrum) and didn’t have many outside financial resources. I basically had to make a choice between getting paid to go to a state school or finding a way to pay the roughly 40k+/year to go to the school I’m at. For whatever reason I decided to take a Navy ROTC scholarship that covered about 35k/year and cover the rest with work/loans. Thanks to poker I’ll graduate with basically no debt, and a 5 year obligation to the Navy.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the 5 years is after you graduate, right? Is there wiggleroom on how you can spend that time?


[ QUOTE ]
My dilemma is that I’ve basically become an anarcho-capitalist in the meantime. Before college I didn’t think much about political beliefs, but during freshman year I was friends with some activists and through conversations with them I was led to analyze what I thought about politics and decided I was a libertarian. Over the next three years, partly due to 2+2 and partly due to further/deeper thinking about the subject, I’ve decided that to be internally consistent given my guiding principles I’m pretty much by default an ACist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another one bites the dust. Just kidding /images/graemlins/wink.gif


[ QUOTE ]
For obvious reasons this has led to a fair amount of internal strife. I’m just wondering what some ACist think I should do, and their general thoughts on the matter.

Some things to think about:
I’m 99% confident that serving in the Navy will be +EV for me. They’re sending me to get a masters in Nuclear Engineering (which counts as part of the 5 years… so it’s really more like 3.5 out active in the fleet)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah


[ QUOTE ]
and given my intellectual interests I’m extremely excited about this part of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? Working on atomic weapons doesn't sound so wonderful to me.


[ QUOTE ]
Also, being in the military gets you a lot of respect in this country. Being a veteran will lead to a lot of opportunities down the road on top of making people more likely to listen and weigh fairly any radical opinions I might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought you were an ACist. And now you're talking about the respect you'll get from people for being a military guy. Why are you interested in those people? In the opinions of people who are slaves to the men who murder for money? Who will lick your boots and wave flags of approval for being so noble as to kill people on the other side of the world!?


[ QUOTE ]
I’ve served on a submarine (which is where I’ll be eventually) for a month or two during the summers already and, bracketing all the AC-related qualms, I’m pretty sure I’ll enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why. Isn't it soulcrushing work? Having to blindly follow orders all day. And all those other guys in the military are soulless robots. They do what they are told and have no moral compass of their own. For them the highest moral is to 'serve your country'.


[ QUOTE ]
In the event of large-scale war I think I’d be safer in a US Submarine than a major US city. Also, nuclear power officers make a pretty decent salary, especially given that I’m planning on staying single.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, now we're getting into the realm of pure excuses. This stuff is NOT WHAT IT'S ABOUT. The problem is your conscience. And now you're making stuff up to silence your consciense. Let me tell you: it's never gonna work. You have to listen to your conscience. If you don't, your kill your ability to have empathy and have real human relationships and hapiness. That's the best thing you've got. Working in the machine of war; the machine who is designed to kill humans, and being involved with that business, will absolutely crush your soul.


[ QUOTE ]
Finally, military uniforms make getting laid a hell of a lot easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again: why would you possibly be interested in those type of uniform-loving people? Haven't you noticed that those type of relationships can never make you happy? Those people are an empty shell of conformity and will cling on to anything that seems real and virtuess. But they will never get that fullfillment from soulless robots, and neither will you get anything out of them.


[ QUOTE ]
This has been very true for me thus far even though I live in an extremely liberal area and have crappy ROTC uniforms.

I say I’m an ACist, which is true, but maybe in a weaker sense than some. Basically, I’m a nihilist with an extremely strong aesthetic preference for freedom. So if all else fails, I can rationalize my involvement with the US military by citing the fact that nothing really matters in a deep, ultimate sense anyway. That being said, it still makes me a bit queasy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Morality exists in your mind. It will have the biggest effect you can possibly imagine. It's inescapable. And if you smuther it, you'll have to smuther your sound emotional capacity as well.


[ QUOTE ]
I don’t think I could make more than 50k or so a year in poker given my current skill level, which I suppose could be improved upon, but right now I’m not sure if it’s a realistic option. If I quit the Navy I’d owe them roughly 150k. Also, I did sign a contract with them back when I was 18.

[/ QUOTE ]

That contract has no moral content whatsoever. You had been brainwashed by your parents and by public school.


[ QUOTE ]
If I could do things over again obviously I wouldn't join the military, I'd probably get paid $500/month to go to my state school and apply to grad-school somewhere nice. However, I did sign a contract and I think reneging on my agreement would be a bit cowardly/distasteful.

[/ QUOTE ]

NO. no. no. A thousand times no. True heroism, honour, integrity and virtue is STANDING UP to evil. The people who go off to war are the real cowards. They've never stood up to their abusers and will kill and die as to not having to think about the false moral principles they've received.

[tomdemaine]

[ QUOTE ]
That contract has no moral content whatsoever. You had been brainwashed by your parents and by public school

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a little off to me. So I can get out of a contract so long as I think I was brainwashed into it?

Say I buy a car with 3 years 0% credit then when the bill comes due (after driving it around for 3 years for free) I decide that the flashy advertising and overbearing sales pitch brainwashed me into buying it. Should I be able to get all my money back?

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That contract has no moral content whatsoever. You had been brainwashed by your parents and by public school

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a little off to me. So I can get out of a contract so long as I think I was brainwashed into it?

Say I buy a car with 3 years 0% credit then when the bill comes due (after driving it around for 3 years for free) I decide that the flashy advertising and overbearing sales pitch brainwashed me into buying it. Should I be able to get all my money back?

[/ QUOTE ]


18 years of institutionalized soul-crushing propaganda (which brakes most people's brains for life) != flashy ad.

[arahant]

You know, you are really kind of screwing the taxpayers here, if that makes you feel better. They (I) have already given you 150k upfront; add on the advanced instruction, + 5 years of pay, and it looks to me like you are being grotesquely overpaid for 3.5 years of work. So it should be pretty easy to view this as sucking the lifeblood out of the corrupt government institution. Or just screwing me...whatever conforms to this ACBS best...

What exactly are you otherwise planning on doing in the next 5 years that is somehow noble (by your standards)?

But hey, at least your parents didn't pay taxes!

[MuresanForMVP]

[ QUOTE ]
The people who go off to war are the real cowards. They've never stood up to their abusers and will kill and die as to not having to think about the false moral principles they've received.

[/ QUOTE ]

my goodness this is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. "The people who go off to war are the real cowards" is one of those phrases that people use to get attention but have zero substance whatsoever. 1).Making that statement assumes that you understand why people volunteer to go to war...which you clearly have no concept of and 2).What takes more courage: complaining and pointing fingers on an internet message board, or being willing to put your life on the line for something you believe in (whether that's God,your country, or more importantly one of your comrades in arms...remember we're not debating which of these reasons is "legitimate")? It's like fighting for one of your family, would you fight and die for a family member of yours Nielsio? I think it is you who is the true coward.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
NO. no. no. A thousand times no. True heroism, honour, integrity and virtue is STANDING UP to evil. The people who go off to war are the real cowards. They've never stood up to their abusers and will kill and die as to not having to think about the false moral principles they've received.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's ridiculous. From the tone of your post, it sounds like if you could push a button and disband the U.S. Military you would. Doing that would make you the greatest mass-murderer in history.

I'm all for less government, but this AC thing is a joke. Grow up, we don't live in hamlets anymore.

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
That's ridiculous. From the tone of your post, it sounds like if you could push a button and disband the U.S. Military you would.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't change the topic, no one's talking about that. What we are talking about it joining the military while it's waging aggressive wars with no end in sight. Is it odd to you that the OP has moral qulams with being put in a kill or be killed atmosphere and participating in these aggressive wars? I think it would be odd to me if he didn't.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for less government, but this AC thing is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll gladly debate you on that any time /images/graemlins/smile.gif. However this thread is not the place for it.
[ QUOTE ]
Grow up, we don't live in hamlets anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
Living in hamlets != being opposed to aggressive and unnecessary wars.

[MuresanForMVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's ridiculous. From the tone of your post, it sounds like if you could push a button and disband the U.S. Military you would.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't change the topic, no one's talking about that. What we are talking about it joining the military while it's waging aggressive wars with no end in sight. Is it odd to you that the OP has moral qulams with being put in a kill or be killed atmosphere and participating in these aggressive wars? I think it would be odd to me if he didn't.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm all for less government, but this AC thing is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll gladly debate you on that any time /images/graemlins/smile.gif. However this thread is not the place for it.
[ QUOTE ]
Grow up, we don't live in hamlets anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]
Living in hamlets != being opposed to aggressive and unnecessary wars.

[/ QUOTE ]

how is being a nuclear engineer anything close to being put in a "kill or be killed" atmosphere?

[tomdemaine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That contract has no moral content whatsoever. You had been brainwashed by your parents and by public school

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems a little off to me. So I can get out of a contract so long as I think I was brainwashed into it?

Say I buy a car with 3 years 0% credit then when the bill comes due (after driving it around for 3 years for free) I decide that the flashy advertising and overbearing sales pitch brainwashed me into buying it. Should I be able to get all my money back?

[/ QUOTE ]


18 years of institutionalized soul-crushing propaganda (which brakes most people's brains for life) != flashy ad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like opinion. Who is drawing the arbitrary line over which things are brainwashing?

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
how is being a nuclear engineer anything close to being put in a "kill or be killed" atmosphere?


[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, I was under the impression he was doing this after the military, I guess I'm wrong. Still something to be said about doing anything to that's considered helping an aggressive war machine, at least in my (and the OP's) opinion.

[MelchyBeau]

[ QUOTE ]


Why is that? Working on atomic weapons doesn't sound so wonderful to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not what he will do as a nuclear engineer. He will work on nuclear reactors.

[govman6767]

[ QUOTE ]
"killing people for money" when you'd be a nuclear engineer? sorry but that's kind of a ridiculous way to put it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nuclear Engineer in the navy equals 1 of 2 things.

1) You work on the engines that power the nuclear subs

2) You get to push the button that launches the nukes from the subs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I would rather have job #2 because job # 1 kills fish if waste is released and I would rather nuke humans then fish.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it odd to you that the OP has moral qulams with being put in a kill or be killed atmosphere

[/ QUOTE ]

What's odd to me, is not considering you would be put in that situation. It's the military.

Considering the time-line I'm assuming his views/beliefs have changed since he signed up, and whether he didn't think we'd be in the situation we're in now or not agreeing with the current situation, doesn't seem to be relevant. He knows he can get out of his commitment, with just monetary repercussions, and basically just repay a loan.

But his naivete showed when he said:
"p.s. I'm not really worried about my ability to perform as an officer, regardless of whether or not I end up regretting the decision. I've had a lot of experience with analogous situations and always excelled, regardless of my personal feelings... so this isn't an issue."

It is an issue, and it will be resolved within his first ninety days. He'll either get with the program or he won't, and despite his thoughts about "bluffing" his way through - it won't happen. Out of the dozen or so officers on the pig boat, half will be Naval Academy Grads or career Officers - and who he is will come out, whether he likes it or not. The way he was treated in NROTC summer school is nothing compared to the way an Ensign is dealt with. The indoctrination happens, and it happens fast. Just like a boot goes through - ninety days. In three months you know everything you need to know about a man.

But they won't string him from the gallows. They'll just shuffle him off to some non-critical rearward position. It happens all the time. The guys on the front-line are there because they want to be there, and they won't allow anyone in their fire-team, squad, or as the squids say section, who doesn’t want to be there.

Is that just peer pressure? I'm not sure. To me it's more of a sifting process than a follow-the -leader mechanism. Most of the guys just want to know who they're next to.

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather nuke humans then fish.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wow.

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it odd to you that the OP has moral qulams with being put in a kill or be killed atmosphere

[/ QUOTE ]

What's odd to me, is not considering you would be put in that situation. It's the military.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer my question at all. Is it odd to you that the OP has moral qualms with being put in a kill or be killed atmosphere (I have been corrected, though, he wouldn't be on the battlefield, so revise that to Is it odd that the OP has moral qualms with working for an aggressive war machine?)
[ QUOTE ]
Considering the time-line I'm assuming his views/beliefs have changed since he signed up, and whether he didn't think we'd be in the situation we're in now or not agreeing with the current situation, doesn't seem to be relevant. He knows he can get out of his commitment, with just monetary repercussions, and basically just repay a loan.


[/ QUOTE ]
yes, just $150,000. Don't get me wrong, it is a contract and he's bound by that contract, but that doesn't make it any less of a predicament. in fact it makes it more so.
[ QUOTE ]
But his naivete showed when he said:
"p.s. I'm not really worried about my ability to perform as an officer, regardless of whether or not I end up regretting the decision. I've had a lot of experience with analogous situations and always excelled, regardless of my personal feelings... so this isn't an issue."

It is an issue, and it will be resolved within his first ninety days. He'll either get with the program or he won't, and despite his thoughts about "bluffing" his way through - it won't happen. Out of the dozen or so officers on the pig boat, half will be Naval Academy Grads or career Officers - and who he is will come out, whether he likes it or not. The way he was treated in NROTC summer school is nothing compared to the way an Ensign is dealt with. The indoctrination happens, and it happens fast. Just like a boot goes through - ninety days. In three months you know everything you need to know about a man.

But they won't string him from the gallows. They'll just shuffle him off to some non-critical rearward position. It happens all the time. The guys on the front-line are there because they want to be there, and they won't allow anyone in their fire-team, squad, or as the squids say section, who doesn’t want to be there.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you defintely know more about this then me. Considering you're either $150,000 in the hole or spend 5 years of your life in the military, it be tempting not to take say a desk job in the miltary if possible.

To the OP,

We can't really make this decision for you. Only you can. Personally I don't know how much "regular" time you get in the military, but to me having 5 years of life in my 20s gone doesn't sound very appealing. If with your degree you can get a high paying civilian job and just pay off the debt with time I think I'd go with that. You only get to be young once, why spend it having orders barked at you, or doing something you consider morally wrong? But again, this your choice and you must think long and hard about this. I don't envy making that decision either (although i do envy having a good degree /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

[latefordinner]

is there really a question here? just move up limits, get robusto and pay it off /images/graemlins/wink.gif

it's not my position to advise you what I would do in your situation, however there might be some options that you are not aware of. I would get in touch with the folks at www.objector.org (http://www.objector.org) and have a free, confidential phone conversation with a counselor who specializes in these things.