TPNK OOP vs spaz

[ImsaKidd]

Villain probably has nutty stats. 1 hand he min3b an UTG PFR with 22, cbet an ATT flop, checked a 4 turn, then CR'ed a Q river.

Given his min3b range and such, whats our turn line here?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $87.55
Hero: $106.10
CO: $125.55
Button: $96
SB: $216.10
BB: $43.25

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $4</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $7</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($22, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $20</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($62, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $37</font>

[Jay Riall]

Lame spot. Probably call again given read. Readless I would have folded the flop btw.

[Etats360]

This is such a [censored] spot but I think I fold here. based on the previous hand, I kind of expect underpairs to check here. I don't think I can call a bet on a river blank, and I only have 2 outs against a K so I think I fold now instead of the river

[FeltBelt]

Why didn't you bet the flop?

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I bet the flop? Let captain wacky bluff, yes?

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I bet the flop? Let captain wacky bluff, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess ...

Or you could bet the flop, find out more about where you are, possibly take it down right there, and possibly get a bluff raise from Captain Wacky.

Or check it, call his "bluff", have an overcard fall on the turn, not know where you are, and probably fold a winner.

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I bet the flop? Let captain wacky bluff, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess ...

Or you could bet the flop, find out more about where you are, possibly take it down right there, and possibly get a bluff raise from Captain Wacky.

Or check it, call his "bluff", have an overcard fall on the turn, not know where you are, and probably fold a winner.

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not finding out "where im at" by leading flop into an obvious whackjob whose range is massive here. I am letting him fold a lot of marginal hands that would cbet.

And the overcard on the turn is obv results oriented IMO.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I bet the flop? Let captain wacky bluff, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess ...

Or you could bet the flop, find out more about where you are, possibly take it down right there, and possibly get a bluff raise from Captain Wacky.

Or check it, call his "bluff", have an overcard fall on the turn, not know where you are, and probably fold a winner.

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not finding out "where im at" by leading flop into an obvious whackjob whose range is massive here. I am letting him fold a lot of marginal hands that would cbet.

And the overcard on the turn is obv results oriented IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, call him down, have him show you K2o, and kick yourself for not betting the flop like you should have.

Or have the stones to raise the turn.

As I said, when you're a nit you can't afford to eff around. You bet when you're likely ahead, and everything goes more smoothly for you. You try to get fancy and let this bozo "bluff" you and suddenly you've spent 75BBs on TPNK and wonder why he's raking a big pot in.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I bet the flop? Let captain wacky bluff, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess ...

Or you could bet the flop, find out more about where you are, possibly take it down right there, and possibly get a bluff raise from Captain Wacky.

Or check it, call his "bluff", have an overcard fall on the turn, not know where you are, and probably fold a winner.

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not finding out "where im at" by leading flop into an obvious whackjob whose range is massive here. I am letting him fold a lot of marginal hands that would cbet.

And the overcard on the turn is obv results oriented IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, call him down, have him show you K2o, and kick yourself for not betting the flop like you should have.

Or have the stones to raise the turn.

As I said, when you're a nit you can't afford to eff around. You bet when you're likely ahead, and everything goes more smoothly for you. You try to get fancy and let this bozo "bluff" you and suddenly you've spent 75BBs on TPNK and wonder why he's raking a big pot in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having things go smoothly is not reasoning to bet. Just because c/c flop puts us in a tough turn when an over falls, doesnt mean it maximizes EV.

Are you open shoving AA to avoid a "tough spot" on a KQJ flop?
What about TT on a T56 2 flush flop?

I can also call him down and be shown 34s that would fold to a donk on the flop.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I bet the flop? Let captain wacky bluff, yes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess ...

Or you could bet the flop, find out more about where you are, possibly take it down right there, and possibly get a bluff raise from Captain Wacky.

Or check it, call his "bluff", have an overcard fall on the turn, not know where you are, and probably fold a winner.

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not finding out "where im at" by leading flop into an obvious whackjob whose range is massive here. I am letting him fold a lot of marginal hands that would cbet.

And the overcard on the turn is obv results oriented IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, call him down, have him show you K2o, and kick yourself for not betting the flop like you should have.

Or have the stones to raise the turn.

As I said, when you're a nit you can't afford to eff around. You bet when you're likely ahead, and everything goes more smoothly for you. You try to get fancy and let this bozo "bluff" you and suddenly you've spent 75BBs on TPNK and wonder why he's raking a big pot in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having things go smoothly is not reasoning to bet. Just because c/c flop puts us in a tough turn when an over falls, doesnt mean it maximizes EV.

Are you open shoving AA to avoid a "tough spot" on a KQJ flop?
What about TT on a T56 2 flush flop?

I can also call him down and be shown 34s that would fold to a donk on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you make your decisions easier and make your opponents actions more reliable, that is +EV. Having things go smoothly IS absolutely +EV because making good decisions is +EV.

You're not going to call him down often enough AND see 34s often enough to make your strategy here a correct one.

Just stop dicking around and play tight and aggressive. Nobody is suggesting you shove. Just stop being an overthinking tool and bet your good hands against a bad player. Pretty simple.

[Clayton]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Clayton]

FeltBelt, you are kinda right and kinda wrong.

that said, i dont love you anymore.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
FeltBelt STFU you give terrible advice

[/ QUOTE ]

Then give some better advice.

And tell me why mine is terrible.

There's a lot of talk on here and very little to back it up. Explain yourself or stfu.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
FeltBelt STFU you give terrible advice

[/ QUOTE ]

Buddy Christ is my savior.

Clayton: turn line? you play flop any different?

[Clayton]

dammit, you are too quick for my ninja edit

elaboration given after i win this donkament

[Clayton]

I change my mind again

FeltBelt you really give terrible advice. Betting out this flop? are you serious?

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]


Okay, call him down, have him show you K2o, and kick yourself for not betting the flop like you should have.


[/ QUOTE ]

you are horribly results oriented


[ QUOTE ]
Or have the stones to raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

a turn CRAI is horrible, hes shown strength and you are now bluffing without any gauge as to his holdings

[ QUOTE ]
As I said, when you're a nit you can't afford to eff around. You bet when you're likely ahead, and everything goes more smoothly for you. You try to get fancy and let this bozo "bluff" you and suddenly you've spent 75BBs on TPNK and wonder why he's raking a big pot in.

[/ QUOTE ]

you make the best play, not the ABC comfy plays. christ sake.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
I change my mind again

FeltBelt you really give terrible advice. Betting out this flop? are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am.

Not stop telling us what you effing think and start telling us WHY. Anyone can come on here and tell everyone what they think should be done on a hand, but without the why it is just hot air.

Now explain or stfu. I've explained my reasoning already (see, I do that).

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you bet the flop and let him easily bluff you off, since a queen cant be good, right?

holy god

[Clayton]

i could seriously go on forever, FeltBet, but you arent worth the time. posters like you turn good SSNL players into bad SSNL players.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, but when you're a 2p2 nit, you don't make your money by putting yourself in positions where nutbars can easily bet you off your marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you bet the flop and let him easily bluff you off, since a queen cant be good, right?

holy god

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh no, I'd call a flop raise.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I change my mind again

FeltBelt you really give terrible advice. Betting out this flop? are you serious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I am.

Not stop telling us what you effing think and start telling us WHY. Anyone can come on here and tell everyone what they think should be done on a hand, but without the why it is just hot air.

Now explain or stfu. I've explained my reasoning already (see, I do that).

[/ QUOTE ]

I explained why your thinking was results oriented and incorrect.

Leading flop FOLDS worse hands and loses us value because he then doesnt bluff them (maybe he will bluffraise, not nearly as often as he will bluff cbet though). We dont gain value, we lose it.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
i could seriously go on forever, FeltBet, but you arent worth the time. posters like you turn good SSNL players into bad SSNL players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think it's posters like you that do that. You disagree, but you can't say why. You give crappy advice and don't explain yourself, then you wonder why you go on huge downswings even though you're such a great player in your own mind.

You've got lots of time to tell me why Hero shouldn't bet this flop. Do it or stfu.

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]

When you make your decisions easier and make your opponents actions more reliable, that is +EV. Having things go smoothly IS absolutely +EV because making good decisions is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

DUH. but is it MOST EV? no.

[ QUOTE ]
Just stop being an overthinking tool and bet your good hands against a bad player. Pretty simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is insulting to everyone who tries to become the best they can be.

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i could seriously go on forever, FeltBet, but you arent worth the time. posters like you turn good SSNL players into bad SSNL players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think it's posters like you that do that. You disagree, but you can't say why. You give crappy advice and don't explain yourself, then you wonder why you go on huge downswings even though you're such a great player in your own mind.

You've got lots of time to tell me why Hero shouldn't bet this flop. Do it or stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm up 25k this year, how are the 1/2 doldrums for you?

you are blind to your terrible advice.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When you make your decisions easier and make your opponents actions more reliable, that is +EV. Having things go smoothly IS absolutely +EV because making good decisions is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

DUH. but is it MOST EV? no.


WHY NOT?

[ QUOTE ]
Just stop being an overthinking tool and bet your good hands against a bad player. Pretty simple.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is insulting to everyone who tries to become the best they can be.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHY?


You can't just give opinions without reasoning. What part of this do you not understand, you godamn idiot?

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]

You can't just give opinions without reasoning. What part of this do you not understand, you godamn idiot?

[/ QUOTE ]

you stress making easy decisions, and then cite a turn raise. what?

you stress to "overthinking tools" to not even bother with spots like this. you like to avoid smaller +EV decisions to make life "easier". the landscape of NL has become such that passing up these "tougher" decisions can be the difference between losing and breakeven, breakeven and winning, winning and killing.

you are, in essence, telling people who want to learn, want to extract in those small +EV spots, to forget it, because they are overthinking tools and should spend their time laying on their back sipping lemonade betting TPTK against morons.

you are the antitheses of a winning player at higher stakes. enjoy beating 1/2 for a marginal crappy rate, because your mindset will never beat 3/6 or higher.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i could seriously go on forever, FeltBet, but you arent worth the time. posters like you turn good SSNL players into bad SSNL players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think it's posters like you that do that. You disagree, but you can't say why. You give crappy advice and don't explain yourself, then you wonder why you go on huge downswings even though you're such a great player in your own mind.

You've got lots of time to tell me why Hero shouldn't bet this flop. Do it or stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm up 25k this year, how are the 1/2 doldrums for you?

you are blind to your terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each). So really, take your "I'm up 25k this year, and you suck because you post 1-2 hands" and shove it up your ass.

But again, this doesn't do a damn thing to address the point that all you do is tell us what you think without saying why. Maybe because you can't? You said you didn't have time, yet you've posted like 5 times since then.

Get it through your head--explain your reasoning or keep being a know-it-all bag of hot air. There's no in-between.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You can't just give opinions without reasoning. What part of this do you not understand, you godamn idiot?

[/ QUOTE ]

you stress making easy decisions, and then cite a turn raise. what?

you stress to "overthinking tools" to not even bother with spots like this. you like to avoid smaller +EV decisions to make life "easier". the landscape of NL has become such that passing up these "tougher" decisions can be the difference between losing and breakeven, breakeven and winning, winning and killing.

you are, in essence, telling people who want to learn, want to extract in those small +EV spots, to forget it, because they are overthinking tools and should spend their time laying on their back sipping lemonade betting TPTK against morons.

you are the antitheses of a winning player at higher stakes. enjoy beating 1/2 for a marginal crappy rate, because your mindset will never beat 3/6 or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just more BS hot air. It doesn't address Hero's play in this hand in any way. It just makes a bunch of vague "you don't get it and I do because you suck" statements. Those aren't persuasive.

Let's make it simple for you: WHY IS CHECKING MORE +EV THAN BETTING ON THIS FLOP AGAINST THIS OPPONENT?

Answer that or stfu, seriously. You're embarrassing yourself on this thread.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahah

proof of 10ptbb/100 over 100k hands at 2/4 and 3/6 please.

Did I mention - ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i could seriously go on forever, FeltBet, but you arent worth the time. posters like you turn good SSNL players into bad SSNL players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think it's posters like you that do that. You disagree, but you can't say why. You give crappy advice and don't explain yourself, then you wonder why you go on huge downswings even though you're such a great player in your own mind.

You've got lots of time to tell me why Hero shouldn't bet this flop. Do it or stfu.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm up 25k this year, how are the 1/2 doldrums for you?

you are blind to your terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each). So really, take your "I'm up 25k this year, and you suck because you post 1-2 hands" and shove it up your ass.

But again, this doesn't do a damn thing to address the point that all you do is tell us what you think without saying why. Maybe because you can't? You said you didn't have time, yet you've posted like 5 times since then.

Get it through your head--explain your reasoning or keep being a know-it-all bag of hot air. There's no in-between.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I was busy jamming a fork into my eye rather than arguing more.

Im gonna summarize some stuff one more time:
1: We have seen villain min3b 22 OOP and cbet an ATT flop. He then bluff CRed the ATT 4 Q board. This guy has some moves, whether they are good or not cant be determined.

2: This board is dry and we have a medium strength hand. He is much more likely to fire this board because it rarely hits our hand.

3: We cant be TOO happy about getting AI, but we want to get max value from spaztards whacky bluffs and such.

4: We dont know if he raises flop donks frequently or just folds to them. He can be really loose for the first bet but tighten up considerably if someone raises him or leads.

5: Getting him to fold a worse hand SUCKS. We lose value by not letting him bluff.

Maybe some stuff I forgot. Your turn.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahah

proof of 10ptbb/100 over 100k hands at 2/4 and 3/6 please.

Did I mention - ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[/ QUOTE ]

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you or anyone else on here, because it makes no difference to the play of this hand. Believe my rates or don't, I could care less.

[w33ktight]

given read i call flop and fold turn.

as to this thread: wow

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahah

proof of 10ptbb/100 over 100k hands at 2/4 and 3/6 please.

Did I mention - ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[/ QUOTE ]

We think too much I guess. I guess what we were missing is playing hands in the most transparent way possible and getting villains to fold in spots where they are very likely to bluff.

[Clayton]

[ QUOTE ]


Let's make it simple for you: WHY IS CHECKING MORE +EV THAN BETTING ON THIS FLOP AGAINST THIS OPPONENT?

Answer that or stfu, seriously. You're embarrassing yourself on this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

because you let villain continuation bet a wide range of his holdings that he wouldnt have otherwise. you probably have the best hand, but you can make more money letting him bluff than betting out, as he will only give you action with a better hand, albeit the small percent of times he calls the flopbet with TT intending on putting no more money in.

additionally some times he will raise you with a better hand, and sometimes with a worse hand of those times he raises. hero puts himself into a spot where he has to fold.

hero has to ask how he makes the most out of the situation, and betting for value against someone who will only give a great amount of action with a better hand is clearly less EV than checking and letting him bet a huge range of holdings preying on heros weakness.

simple stuff. or am I overthinking too much for your "FELT HAVE QUEEN. FELT BET!!!!" philosophy that will make me broke?

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahah

proof of 10ptbb/100 over 100k hands at 2/4 and 3/6 please.

Did I mention - ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[/ QUOTE ]

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you or anyone else on here, because it makes no difference to the play of this hand. Believe my rates or don't, I could care less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahah you are the world's worst liar. You realize the very best players only beat those games longterm for like 6ptbb/100 or so? (correct me if I'm wrong Clayton).

[Clayton]

it was possible to beat those games for higher in like, july and earlier. no way after party died. especially after frist. though, i think 1/2 can be beatable for like 8+ these days w good table selection. just pure speculation.

10+ at 2/4 and 3/6 is LOL.

posters like felt belt are why SSNL is going down in quality. he takes the entire basis of my argument (avoiding small, tougher +EV opportunities is retarded) and skewing them as "blowing hot air".

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Let's make it simple for you: WHY IS CHECKING MORE +EV THAN BETTING ON THIS FLOP AGAINST THIS OPPONENT?

Answer that or stfu, seriously. You're embarrassing yourself on this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

because you let villain continuation bet a wide range of his holdings that he wouldnt have otherwise. you probably have the best hand, but you can make more money letting him bluff than betting out, as he will only give you action with a better hand, albeit the small percent of times he calls the flopbet with TT intending on putting no more money in.

additionally some times he will raise you with a better hand, and sometimes with a worse hand of those times he raises. hero puts himself into a spot where he has to fold.

hero has to ask how he makes the most out of the situation, and betting for value against someone who will only give a great amount of action with a better hand is clearly less EV than checking and letting him bet a huge range of holdings preying on heros weakness.

simple stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given how likely he is to bluff, according to you, why doesn't he bluff raise us? Why does Hero "have" to fold is this villian raises the flop? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Hero is not *looking* for a "great amount of action" here. He's looking to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind, and he will only know the difference between these two is he is a bettor, not a caller. Hero is looking to get a lot of action when he's got a killer hand, not a marginal one--with a marginal one he's looking to make good decisions.

Remember that Hero is also looking to invest the minimum when behind. Checking the flop gives Hero no information with which to make that judgement, so Hero gets lost on the turn, often folds the best hand or calls down a loser, and wonders why. The reason why is because Hero didn't play the hand properly from the beginning and put himself in a good position to make correct decisions.

Really, this is basic poker 101. You're chasing some thin +EV proposition against a horrific player when the key to beating such players is to take them to valuetown when you are ahead, make them pay for more cards, use the information your bets provide to make good decisions, and AVOID DIFFICULT DECISIONS WITH MARGINAL HANDS.

But if you want to get all FPS with a marginal holding on a paired board with two possible overcards on the way and an opponent that both bluffs AND calls too much, feel free. Maybe you're good enough to get away with it, but I highly doubt it.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahah

proof of 10ptbb/100 over 100k hands at 2/4 and 3/6 please.

Did I mention - ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[/ QUOTE ]

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you or anyone else on here, because it makes no difference to the play of this hand. Believe my rates or don't, I could care less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahah you are the world's worst liar. You realize the very best players only beat those games longterm for like 6ptbb/100 or so? (correct me if I'm wrong Clayton).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess I'm running hot, though admittedly most of those hands were played pre-Frist, when the games were a LOT easier. Again, it makes no difference to me what you believe. None.

[ImsaKidd]

Feltbelt:

Can you please address the 5 points I posted TY.

[Clayton]

this whole "betting to see where I'm at" nonsense is why bluffraising flop oop bets has become so ridiculously profitable, and why betting QT to "see whats up" can get exploited huge, and this is just the villain that will raise hands that beat and lose to QT, making hero in a tough, probably -EV spot.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]

Given how likely he is to bluff, according to you, why doesn't he bluff raise us? Why does Hero "have" to fold is this villian raises the flop? I sure as hell wouldn't.

...

Hero is not *looking* for a "great amount of action" here. He's looking to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind, and he will only know the difference between these two is he is a bettor, not a caller. Hero is looking to get a lot of action when he's got a killer hand, not a marginal one--with a marginal one he's looking to make good decisions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Errm, way to completely contradict yourself.

And you wonder why every SSNL thread you participate in turns into a trainwreck ..

[FeltBelt]

1: We have seen villain min3b 22 OOP and cbet an ATT flop. He then bluff CRed the ATT 4 Q board. This guy has some moves, whether they are good or not cant be determined.

Then let him make one on you on the flop. Or bet out and avoid having him make moves. Make your decisions easier and his actions more reliable. Checking just because you've seen him bluff before is ridiculous because of the combined chance you'll be outdrawn, are behind now, and that you'll be forced to fold a winner if he makes a move you can't call.

2: This board is dry and we have a medium strength hand. He is much more likely to fire this board because it rarely hits our hand.

Yeah, so let him raise you on the flop if you think you're very often ahead here. If you want him to "fire" and don't have a plan for what you're going to do when an overcard hits the turn, then why are you playing this way? Is your plan to call down a marginal strength hand all the way to showdown, investing 100BBs in it because he might be bluffing the whole way?

Again, make your decisions easier by betting like you should. If this guy has moves, make sure you can interpret them more accurately. Being a calling station because he's been caught bluffing or folding a winner because he puts too much heat on you is usually not a sign of good decision making.

3: We cant be TOO happy about getting AI, but we want to get max value from spaztards whacky bluffs and such.

This just makes no sense when you don't play in such a way so as to be able to distinguish a bluff from legitimate strength. Your strategy appears to come down to "I've seen him bluff before, I hope he is bluffing this time, I hope he continues to bluff for the entire hand (even though a smooth call on the flop reeks of strength even to a maniac), I hope that I don't get outdrawn, and I hope I'm not behind right now." That's a lot of hope. I prefer knowledge.

4: We dont know if he raises flop donks frequently or just folds to them. He can be really loose for the first bet but tighten up considerably if someone raises him or leads.

We also don't know if he fires three barrels with air, calls a flop donk light, raises a flop donk light, or anything else. So maybe we shouldn't get too godamn fancy, since we don't know what the hell is going on for the rest of the hand when we do?

5: Getting him to fold a worse hand SUCKS. We lose value by not letting him bluff.

Yeah and getting outdrawn sucks, folding a winner when he puts too much pressure on you sucks, calling down a loser sucks, and having him shut down his bluffing after your flop smooth call sort of sucks. All of these things are more likely to happen when you play as you did.

When you bet out, there is a chance he will instantly fold a hand he would have bluffed once with. I'll take that chance when it means I know where I'm at more clearly at most points in the hand, when I will STILL get value from him when he calls me down with 99, for example. You're forgetting (conveniently) the possibility that he will still call you and make his bluff later in the hand when you can pick it off. And you have a MUCH better chance of picking it off correctly when you bet the flop.


Sigh. This is such a simple hand and such a simple set of concepts, but it's obvious some of you just don't get it. I really no longer care, because this forum is so rarely about rational argument anymore. It's just a dick-waving contest now, and it's tiring and frustrating.

[HUD-BOT]

Minraise to punish him at his own game. Seriously though, push on the turn he probably has a draw he's calling with. By draw I mean he's calling AJo.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Given how likely he is to bluff, according to you, why doesn't he bluff raise us? Why does Hero "have" to fold is this villian raises the flop? I sure as hell wouldn't.

...

Hero is not *looking* for a "great amount of action" here. He's looking to win the most when ahead and lose the least when behind, and he will only know the difference between these two is he is a bettor, not a caller. Hero is looking to get a lot of action when he's got a killer hand, not a marginal one--with a marginal one he's looking to make good decisions.


[/ QUOTE ]

Errm, way to completely contradict yourself.

And you wonder why every SSNL thread you participate in turns into a trainwreck ..

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to look up the meaning of "contradict". Getting raised once is not necessarily "a lot of action". And calling that raise may make villian's actions later in the hand much more reliable. As I said, against this player I'm not folding to a raise, though I suppose a monster raise would force that. I bet the flop because I am so often ahead, even when villian raises it (a normal amount).

[Jay Riall]

You're talking like SSNL would care if you kept making strategy posts?

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
this whole "betting to see where I'm at" nonsense is why bluffraising flop oop bets has become so ridiculously profitable, and why betting QT to "see whats up" can get exploited huge, and this is just the villain that will raise hands that beat and lose to QT, making hero in a tough, probably -EV spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah so the answer is to just call him down and hope we're ahead the whole way and don't get outdrawn or get blown off a winner?

Ridiculous.

Bet when we're likely ahead, get money in the pot while ahead, make villian pay for more cards, make villian's actions more reliable later on, and use the information the bets give you to make good decisions. This is BASIC stuff.

I'm done with this thread. You're so entrenched in your position you can't even consider the merits betting the flop. Typical.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
You're talking like SSNL would care if you kept making strategy posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not posting here for you, [censored]. I'm here for me.

[cbboy]

Is he going to be calling you down with a hand you beat though? If he is an aggressive maniac, let him bluff off his chips. You just don't get it, do you?

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
Is he going to be calling you down with a hand you beat though? If he is an aggressive maniac, let him bluff off his chips. You just don't get it, do you?

[/ QUOTE ]

But when you don't bet the flop ... YOU CAN'T TELL WHEN HE'S BLUFFING. YOU HAVE TO JUST FRIGGIN HOPE THE WHOLE HAND THAT HE IS, AND THAT HE HASN"T OUTDRAWN YOU.

Jesus christ on a stick why is this so effing hard to understand!?

[cbboy]

So you want to bet and just fold all worse hands? And is he really going to be betting the whole way with a worse hand?

Edit- maybe it is you that doesn't get it...

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
Is he going to be calling you down with a hand you beat though?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he often will. Any PP comes to mind, as does AK, AJ, etc.

[Clayton]

felt belt go home

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
So you want to bet and just fold all worse hands? And is he really going to be betting the whole way with a worse hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he isn't betting the whole way with a worse hand, this strategy blows up. That's the very scenario it depends on.

I think it's MUCH more likely that he calls the whole way with a worse hand than that he bets the whole way with one.

And since you don't know anything about his strength when you play like a station, I'd much rather be a bettor against this opponent.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
felt belt go home

[/ QUOTE ]

gfy

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're talking like SSNL would care if you kept making strategy posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not posting here for you, [censored]. I'm here for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just about done with this thread. You keep saying he will bluffraise us, and lead just so he cant put a move on us, WTF.

[FeltBelt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're talking like SSNL would care if you kept making strategy posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not posting here for you, [censored]. I'm here for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just about done with this thread. You keep saying he will bluffraise us, and lead just so he cant put a move on us, WTF.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am saying it is a possibility. And if you bet out it's more likely to happen later in the hand, when you have more information because you played it properly and can accurately snap it off.

Once you smoothcall this flop, he's often shutting it down unless he's ahead because your call reeks of so much strength. So when he's way behind, you'll get the one bluff out of him, but rarely more than that.

When you're ahead but he has a call-able hand, like a PP, he might call you down. He might also bluff at a time when he shouldn't (a Q or 7 drops) or when you can easily snap it off.

What exactly are the advantages of checking the flop? Letting him start making moves on you, leaving yourself in the dark, possibly getting bet off a winner, possibly getting outdrawn and not knowing it, and getting one small bluff out of him on the flop? Great.

[FeltBelt]

One final thing. You're basing your whole "let him bluff" strategy on seeing ONE hand where he got way out of line, because he "probably" has "nutty" stats. That's really absurd.

Even if he was a maniac I think your strategy is suboptimal. But the fact that any value at all to be derived from your strategy depends entirely on him being a maniac when you don't have sufficient evidence to ascertain this fact is what makes this a truly poor play.

[dirtysanchez]

holy christ wtf is this nonsense. Immsa, you think hes bluffing, call him down. clayton, thank you for your effort here but you're not getting anywhere with him, and youve done enough to show anyone whos confused here whats correct.

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
One final thing. You're basing your whole "let him bluff" strategy on seeing ONE hand where he got way out of line, because he "probably" has "nutty" stats. That's really absurd.

Even if he was a maniac I think your strategy is suboptimal. But the fact that any value at all to be derived from your strategy depends entirely on him being a maniac when you don't have sufficient evidence to ascertain this fact is what makes this a truly poor play.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you are questioning whether or not hes really a maniac why in the holy [censored] would you even consider bet/calling the flop here?

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're talking like SSNL would care if you kept making strategy posts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not posting here for you, [censored]. I'm here for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just about done with this thread. You keep saying he will bluffraise us, and lead just so he cant put a move on us, WTF.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am saying it is a possibility. And if you bet out it's more likely to happen later in the hand, when you have more information because you played it properly and can accurately snap it off.

Once you smoothcall this flop, he's often shutting it down unless he's ahead because your call reeks of so much strength. So when he's way behind, you'll get the one bluff out of him, but rarely more than that.

When you're ahead but he has a call-able hand, like a PP, he might call you down. He might also bluff at a time when he shouldn't (a Q or 7 drops) or when you can easily snap it off.

What exactly are the advantages of checking the flop? Letting him start making moves on you, leaving yourself in the dark, possibly getting bet off a winner, possibly getting outdrawn and not knowing it, and getting one small bluff out of him on the flop? Great.

[/ QUOTE ]

God man you are a [censored] broken record. It's almost like you aren't even aware that a flush beats a straight, it's THAT bad.

If you bet the flop and get raised, now the pot is big, we're still two streets away from seeing a showdown, and still have no real "information" being gained. We don't know his frequencies of bluffing the turn or on the contrary giving up.

If we're behind he has 3 outs usually at most. Best case scenario he has AK and has 6 outs, all of which are transparent. And he'll be drawing completely dead a ton of the time as well.

[Xanta]

[ QUOTE ]
holy christ wtf is this nonsense. Immsa, you think hes bluffing, call him down. clayton, thank you for your effort here but you're not getting anywhere with him, and youve done enough to show anyone whos confused here whats correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
Thanks for the posts clayton. I struggle against this type of opponent and your posts have made it pretty clear how to play optimally against them.

I feel sick and call down as well. FWIW in my experience a river blocker against this kind of opponent is burning money, correct?

[josh_x]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each).

[/ QUOTE ]

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaahahahahah

proof of 10ptbb/100 over 100k hands at 2/4 and 3/6 please.

Did I mention - ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

[/ QUOTE ]

I have absolutely nothing to prove to you or anyone else on here, because it makes no difference to the play of this hand. Believe my rates or don't, I could care less.

[/ QUOTE ]
omfg the saying is "i couldn't care less" ffs what are you (and other people who say this) thinking?

[Barrin6]

Why is this hand so hard?
C/c call the flop
then donk-bet a safe turn and hope for a c/r. Pray and c/c his push on the river (assuming river is safe)

edit:
feltbelt,
Don't take everything too seriously here. It's just that your reasoning doesn't make sense. Clayton will give everyone a hard time, because he wants to help you guys. Just wish he was a little nicer.

[PerDoom]

Feltbelt, thanks for making SSNL a haven for unintentional comedy. 10 pt/bb100 lmao.

[Dan Bitel]

I saw a 60+ post thread, thought I'd check it out.

Saw the thread hand and thought...its a bit interesting, but worth 60+ replies?

Then I saw feltbelt's 1st post....and it all makes sence.

OP,

I probably just c/c this player down. However, with the K on the turn, I just fold and wait till next hand

[2Paul2]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw a 60+ post thread, thought I'd check it out.

Saw the thread hand and thought...its a bit interesting, but worth 60+ replies?

Then I saw feltbelt's 1st post....and it all makes sence.

OP,

I probably just c/c this player down. However, with the K on the turn, I just fold and wait till next hand

[/ QUOTE ]

[jumbojacks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I saw a 60+ post thread, thought I'd check it out.

Saw the thread hand and thought...its a bit interesting, but worth 60+ replies?

Then I saw feltbelt's 1st post....and it all makes sence.

OP,

I probably just c/c this player down. However, with the K on the turn, I just fold and wait till next hand

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't read most of the posts, but betting this flop is pretty bad to "see where you're at." It's a line that's too exploitable by good/bad aggressive players since you'll just get (bluff) raised and what have you learned? I really don't like to lead out after someone else bet a previous street in this spot since it seems like such a defensive move that looks too transparent, similar to betting to "see where you're at" on the flop in this situation. Call down or fold, I think either line should be ok here.

[Freelancer]

I got about halfway through this thread all I can say is;
Awesome BBV thread, not so great for strategy...

[Montezuma21]

First of all let me just say thanks to everyone who has contributed in this thread. FeltBelt, Clayton(great vid btw), DB etc. flame wars, whilst to you may be just a bit of fun, are a really great way for the rest of us to learn.

anyway, onto the hand:
addressing the point that leading the flop here is the safe option. I'm afraid i have to disagree. we are much more likely IMO to get bluffed off this hand if we lead the flop. As such C-C is the safer option because:

1. A flop lead is likely to be interpreted by villain as a bluff or a Q. he will NOT put us on a 7 because he won't believe anyone plays like that because:
a. he's a donk, and donks don't understand leading with strong hands
b. we can assume that he has some BASIC idea of his table image, and he'll think that the most +EV move for us would NOT be to lead with a 7, but to CALL.
Therefore: A lead is highly likely to be interpreted as a WEAK hand. Villain knows that a float and a bet on the turn, or a flop raise is highly likely to push off the hand, which is in fact the case. We have therefore allowed villain to play perfectly according to the FTOP.

A flop C-C on the other hand, for the reasons stated above, is MORE likely to lead villain to think we have a 7 (as opposed to a Q or a float), and he will therefore be LESS likely to pull some moves on this hand (because he'll be scared of the 7), allowing us to:
1. make an EASIER (though by no means easy) decision on later streets when facing heat to fold.
2. get to SD at a lower cost if villain has a medium strength hand.


Now that we have established that the decision is easier, let's now examine if it's +EV, working under the assumption that villain is very liekly to bet at this flop:

Scenario 1: We bet, villain folds: we've now lost the value of villain's CB
We bet, villain raises or calls, and we check the turn: we have no idea where we're at , and villain (for the reasons stated above) is likely to correctly interpreted our hand as a medium strength hand that can't stand a lot of heat. he knows exactly where we're at, and can play accordingly.

We check, villain bets and we call: we've got his CB, and he likely believes our hand is stronger than it is, and we can get to SD for less (which is our aim here): we win because we're forcing him to play exactly as we want him to. he is MORE likely to shut down on the turn without the goods, and LESS likely to pull moves.

therefore, C-C flop is both the safer option and the most +EV one. writign this on the go, so don't know if it all makes sense.

On another note: We have signalled strength with our flop flat call. Villain bet again on the turn. We fold because: 1. IF villain has a 7 or a K(unfortunate turn, but we shouldn't be results oriented, an A or a K scare card come on the turn only around 16% of the time), he has us beat
2. IF villain does NOT have a 7, his play in this hand is bad (at SSNL, the fact that his play is in this case absolutely correct does not take away from how bad the play actually is in an SSNL scenario) and therefore, we know we're very likely to stack him later on, and need not (although technically we should push every edge blahblahblah) risk our stack on such marginal situations.

[Tickner]

Just fold the flop because of reverse implied odds. Theres no need to continue with this hand. You have no idea where you stand and you get put in tough positions on the turn all day here. Even with the read I still fold the flop, but its close.

[Jay Riall]

Ok, so I obviously doubted Feltbelts claim to be crushing the bigger games earlier in the thread. So I asked him to pm me his stats, and all I can say is wow. This guy is a freaking poker god. You should all listen to his expert advice from now on.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/7030/statsth0.png (http://imageshack.us)

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I obviously doubted Feltbelts claim to be crushing the bigger games earlier in the thread. So I asked him to pm me his stats, and all I can say is wow. This guy is a freaking poker god. You should all listen to his expert advice from now on.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/7030/statsth0.png (http://imageshack.us)

[/ QUOTE ]

Liar- he said he had like 120k hands!

[BigJimSlade]

To be fair, he never said he was a 10PTBB/100 winner. Someone misread what he wrote and then everyone started calling him a filthy liar

[cbboy]

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair, he never said he was a 10PTBB/100 winner. Someone misread what he wrote and then everyone started calling him a filthy liar

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I play 1-2, 2-4, and 3-6. All recreationally, as I have a very intense job (I've made more than 25k at that this year, so really you don't impress me at all). Playing recreationally, at every level I am above 10BB/100 with a large hand sample (over 100k hands at each). So really, take your "I'm up 25k this year, and you suck because you post 1-2 hands" and shove it up your ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I missing something... that seems like he is saying he is a 10bb/100 winning player...

[BigJimSlade]

I thought 10PTBB = 20BB?

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought 10PTBB = 20BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[mertzo]

10 BB in PT = 10PTBB

[BigJimSlade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought 10PTBB = 20BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so...

He said he was a 10BB/100 winner, Jay said bahahahahahahahahahahahaha proof of 10PTBB/100 please, then other people called bs on his winrate and oh god i don't even care i'm probably wrong anyway and I wish I never posted in the first place

[Jay Riall]

Ok, so either hes lying about a 10ptbb/100 winrate or he's an idiot for giving his winrate in bb/100.

[Dan Bitel]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so either hes lying about a 10ptbb/100 winrate or he's an idiot for giving his winrate in bb/100.

[/ QUOTE ]

cant it be both?

[cbboy]

Well, I assumed that he was talking about his PT stats that say he is a 10bb/100 winner. I assumed that he meant 10PTBB/100, but I could have misinterpretted what he said.