KQs flops TP and faces donkbets

[poker_n00b]

I did not have any reads at the tme of playing the hand. He just sat down. But when reviewing the session I noticed one hand when he raised KJo from BB after several limpers and played it aggro vs short stack on QJx flop.



1. Do you make the turn call?

2. What river bets do you call on non ace non 7 rivers?

3. What river bets do you call if ace falls?

4. What river bets do you call if 7 falls?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($3.90)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($21.25)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($27.65)</font>
SB ($15.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.25</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1.

Flop: ($3.85) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2</font>, Hero calls $2, BB folds.

Turn: ($7.85) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4.

[Triggerle]

1. Yes, but I'm not happy about it.

2.-4. I call no river bet. Well, maybe a really small one.

[poker_n00b]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Yes, but I'm not happy about it.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[Triggerle]

because (1) KQ is a trap hand if played for TPGK value and (2) we are only ahead if UTG 2-barrel steals.

[poker_n00b]

He cannot 2-barrel value bet his 7x and Kx like this?

[Triggerle]

He could, but it's more likely he has something reasonable with the bet sizes. If you have a read that he would do this with 7x or Kx (i.e. he is retarded) then I'd probably min-raise the turn and shut down then.

[GoadToad]

Does anyone else raise this flop to 6-7, and then put no more money in? Or is that just a recipe to get bluffed off on the river.

[cowhead]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else raise this flop to 6-7, and then put no more money in? Or is that just a recipe to get bluffed off on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think thats the line I would take

[dirtysanchez]

@ poker noob:

1: yes, but only b/c its small. this board is very dry and he donkbet into you on the flop and followed up on the turn, this is 77 a lot.

2-4) only calling a decent-sized river bet w/ a K river, otherwise 1/2 pot or less is all im willing to go

@ those raising the flop: thats much better on a drawy board, here we are either way ahead or way behind on the flop most of the time. calling is best IMO esp as we arent closing the action on the flop

[poker_n00b]

Ok. He had 55 and went all in on the King river which gave me full house.

I think I put myself in a tough calling down situation. Instead I could have raised the flop and prevent him from 3-barreling air and putting me into very tough situaton.

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. He had 55 and went all in on the King river which gave me full house.

I think I put myself in a tough calling down situation. Instead I could have raised the flop and prevent him from 3-barreling air and putting me into very tough situaton.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the flop is the easiest way to play for sure, but it is not the most +EV. your line is good here

[ImprovinNewbie]

my only question is why you are just calling. are you calling hoping he'll bluff the river and you think you are ahead or are yo worried you are behind. i htink you can raise flop definitly or maybe turn.

[ImprovinNewbie]

i like this advice but im not sure i get it. letting the villian bluff with air will net you the most money most of the time but shutting things down with a raise will make other streets easier. right?

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
i like this advice but im not sure i get it. letting the villian bluff with air will net you the most money most of the time but shutting things down with a raise will make other streets easier. right?

[/ QUOTE ]

basically thats right, but the reason its applicable in this case is the important thing. look at the board. there are really no draws for him to be betting, we are either way ahead or way behind. by raising we are guaranteed action from the part of his range that is way ahead of us, and almost never getting action from the part thats way behind (which is drawing to 2-3 outs almost always). by calling we get action from his entire range. if the flop were drawy then raising would be A+, but here we dont really have anything to price out/get value from

[cowhead]

I wanted to bump this because I'm a little confused as to the way ahead/ way behind thing. In this hand Hero raised and utg limps then calls Hero's raise. What hands would he do this with? (actually I dunno since I'm still a nl beginner but...) either AA or a pocket pair.

So when utg bets at Hero on the flop we are either way behind or way ahead (if we're way ahead he's probably just betting w/ air). The recommendation is the call in this situation since if we raise we're only getting called by hands we're way behind.

The thing I don't understand is that the same situation happens on the turn. We have to call. So thats $6 we've invested by the river. If the river is a blank we're again in the same situation and have to call another bet, lets say $8. Of course villain might not bet the river... but how often do players bet two streets with nothing and then check the river? (Maybe more often then I realize?)

So anyway, Hero is supposed to call on three streets and hope that he is way ahead and Villain is firing with air. And I think he has to have air if he's way behind because what kind of hand connects w/ the flop and can be limped utg and then call a raise.

If however, Hero raises on the flop he will only get called by hands he's way behind... but at least he will only have to invest that one raise.

Basically I don't understand how calling is more +ev than raising. It just seems like the turn bet probably indicates we're actually way behind but obviously villain isn't going to fold his hand there... so why not raise?

Am I making any sense? What am I missing?

[Triggerle]

I can't really answer your question but NL holdem is a very complicated game and often it's not really clear which line is best even in hindsight.

Check out this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=plnlpoker&amp;Number=6340355# Post6340355) (Warning, this is from a player playing the highest limits and not really applicable here) for some interesting thoughts regarding a similar situation. I found that by thinking out of the box like that you can bring your game really forward. Of course, at our limits you can't take any of the advice and apply it, but it's the thinking that can help you even down here.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok. He had 55 and went all in on the King river which gave me full house.

I think I put myself in a tough calling down situation. Instead I could have raised the flop and prevent him from 3-barreling air and putting me into very tough situaton.

[/ QUOTE ]

This tough situation was also by FAR the most profitable one given his holding. Calling down seems like a pretty good line to me here. What is he limping with PF that did real well on this board? The 3 turning makes quad 3s unlikely, and maybe he could have 77, but other than that you're in very solid shape. And the bets aren't so huge. I would call the turn, and call most rivers.

[Warteen]

I usually raise the flop and check behind on the turn to induce a bluff / see a cheap showdown. It looks like you got maximum value out of this opponent with your c/c line though, since he's the type to take an aggressive stance with a weak hand.

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to bump this because I'm a little confused as to the way ahead/ way behind thing. In this hand Hero raised and utg limps then calls Hero's raise. What hands would he do this with? (actually I dunno since I'm still a nl beginner but...) either AA or a pocket pair.

So when utg bets at Hero on the flop we are either way behind or way ahead (if we're way ahead he's probably just betting w/ air). The recommendation is the call in this situation since if we raise we're only getting called by hands we're way behind.

The thing I don't understand is that the same situation happens on the turn. We have to call. So thats $6 we've invested by the river. If the river is a blank we're again in the same situation and have to call another bet, lets say $8. Of course villain might not bet the river... but how often do players bet two streets with nothing and then check the river? (Maybe more often then I realize?)

So anyway, Hero is supposed to call on three streets and hope that he is way ahead and Villain is firing with air. And I think he has to have air if he's way behind because what kind of hand connects w/ the flop and can be limped utg and then call a raise.

If however, Hero raises on the flop he will only get called by hands he's way behind... but at least he will only have to invest that one raise.

Basically I don't understand how calling is more +ev than raising. It just seems like the turn bet probably indicates we're actually way behind but obviously villain isn't going to fold his hand there... so why not raise?

Am I making any sense? What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok some thoughts/clarification: 1) most of villains range that we are way ahead of is small pairs that have two outs.

2) your thinking about villain's play is flawed. most random donks at uNL like to slowplay rather than donkbet 3 streets for value, so i think his leading every street actually sways it towards us being way ahead, as a set would most likely look for a c/r on the flop or turn

3) yes if we raise the hand plays itself, but we show more profit long-term calling down here and re-evaluating each street. raising the flop seems attractive because its easy, but you lose out on a bet or two from the villain when you are ahead. picking the villains turn and river bets are what make this line more +EV. especially when you consider that we can lose two bets from him when we are ahead by raising the flop but we can really only save ourselves one when we are behind (the raise on the flop will cancel out the saved turn bet)

[Antinome]

As an unrepentant donkbetter myself let me explain what I think Villian's thinking should be-

First principle of LAGgy play- most flops miss most people.

It clearly missed BB, all he has to get through is the preflop raiser- and he already has a pair, so he thinks he probably has the best hand, and maybe can get you to throw away 99, 88, 66, 78, 67, and play weaker Ks scared.

If we don't donkbet what will you do? Surely you know the..

First principle of cbetting- There are no flops better for cbetting than K high flops.

The TAG will be betting here, K or not. It would be better if he were in MP or later, it reduces the chance he has KQ, KJ, or KT, since the tighter TAGs will throw those hands away from EP or MP. A bet from him will tell us nothing.

So we bet. A call from you tells us either you have a weak K, a huge hand built for trapping, a stubborn TT,JJ,QQ, or a big time read on our play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The board pairs. This can't possibly have helped the tight preflop raiser, barring a trappy 77, KK. It could have helped us. We donkbet with any part of the board, right?

A bet here can get you to fold TT-QQ, some weak K's. Worth doing. Only KQ, KJ is calling. AK and hands bigger than that are springing the trap now. Occassionally a really tight player is calling here with AK or AA. Fine. they make up for that by always folding weak K's. Bad players and people with a read on our play will call with Kx.

You call. Therefore your hand is probably KQ, KJ. Villian knows this, or ought to. Now he just has to act accordingly. an A is a scarecard- not a terribly believable one if you work through the hand, but it will usually work. I'd be betting, so you should call. A seven is rough. I'd definitely play 7x the same way as this, and knowing that I beat KQ I'd make you pay. You should fold. Anything else, and you're ahead of his range. Call most bets.

I like Villian's play, but not his betsizing. He should bet 3 on the flop and 5 on the turn. He should also do the same thing with sets or two pair or AK, but usually they slowplay those hands. Watch for it. If they slowplay these hands then you should go back in time and play it exactly like you did. I like your play so far. Let the guy hang himself.

Now if Villian is a TAG, sLP, or W/T, that's a whole different thing, and I fold turn.