4's full underboat, and im 400+BB deep

[ImprovinNewbie]

This hand happened a while ago and i dont have the exact HH but ill never forget it. i think there is a valuable lesson here.

Villian UTG is really good. we've been sitting together for hours and we're both 400+BB deep. only a few hands ago i had the chance to stack him when he had trips and i had the boat and we played it way small and im pissed about it. MP is kinda standard, no speacial reads. the only read i have about UTG, is he WILL c/c good hands and will do almost anything to make the most money. he is normally a 1/2 player making the switch from party (thats how long ago this was, another post reminded me of this hand.)

UTG- $45
MP- 10
MP1- 3
CO- 5
BTN (hero) 55
BB and SB irrelevant, they fold.

Preflop- hero is dealt 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG calls, MP raises to .45, Hero calls and UTG calls.

Flop- K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG checks, MP bets 1.4, BTN raises to 3.75, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn- K /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG checks, MP bets 5, Hero raises to 22, UTG goes all in for another ~10, MP calls, hero Calls.

River- 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

3 players all in pot is $100+.....

what is everyones oppinion? by far, the biggest pot ive ever played in terms of BB.

[dirtysanchez]

edit: nm misread position. i probably call a bet and pray for AK/KJ/KQ and shove if he checks b/c he cant really fold anything

[ImprovinNewbie]

on which street.... the turn?

[Sir Winalot]

Find a way to get your money in the middle. Sure, this could be TT or KT, but AK and KQ play it the same.

[marvin_1935]

so everyone got it in on the turn? i'm going to stack off vs TT/KK/KT every day of the week. what was the lesson you learned?

[ImprovinNewbie]

right after we got it in on the turn i remembered that he was REALLY into check calling with big hands. maybe this is like the rounders opening hand, where you just arent going to get away from it, but then i realized the ONLY hands he could have were AK (unlikely) and KT. especially being both of us so deep, and him being a very capable player. i think the reason he didnt go AI on the flop is he new i had a big one from my raise and then new he had nuts with the sick ass turn, and that i was trapped. against everyother player i think i play the same, but i think the reade was more important and i had the chance to make one of the best plays of my short career and missed it with the hard on of a "big hand" although an easy read told me i was beat. lesson.

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
on which street.... the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol ignore me i thought we had some money behind for river, getting it in on turn here is A+

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on which street.... the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol ignore me i thought we had some money behind for river, getting it in on turn here is A+

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are good UTG players with 400 BB stacks to start, what could we possibly pay this off with given the action so far? People are calling off 400 BBs here with AK? (We'll neglect the limp-call PF, which seems a bit unlikely for AK, too.)

Now, obviously the read might be mistaken, but if UTG generally seemed kinda solid to me, that check/overcall line on the flop is setting off all kinds of alarm bells once the turn pairs the board.

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on which street.... the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol ignore me i thought we had some money behind for river, getting it in on turn here is A+

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are good UTG players with 400 BB stacks to start, what could we possibly pay this off with given the action so far? People are calling off 400 BBs here with AK? (We'll neglect the limp-call PF, which seems a bit unlikely for AK, too.)

Now, obviously the read might be mistaken, but if UTG generally seemed kinda solid to me, that check/overcall line on the flop is setting off all kinds of alarm bells once the turn pairs the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

what is a "good" utg player limp/calling that beats us here? i think KJ and KQ have to be possibilities

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on which street.... the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol ignore me i thought we had some money behind for river, getting it in on turn here is A+

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are good UTG players with 400 BB stacks to start, what could we possibly pay this off with given the action so far? People are calling off 400 BBs here with AK? (We'll neglect the limp-call PF, which seems a bit unlikely for AK, too.)

Now, obviously the read might be mistaken, but if UTG generally seemed kinda solid to me, that check/overcall line on the flop is setting off all kinds of alarm bells once the turn pairs the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

what is a "good" utg player limp/calling that beats us here? i think KJ and KQ have to be possibilities

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much, but that isn't really the point. Even if his range has nothing that beats us, if it has nothing that calls us either then betting has no point. And his range will of course have hands that beat us.

Are you calling KJ, KQ or AK there? I might think about AK but that deep, against an opponent who didn't seem sucky to me and given this action, I'm tossing KJ and KQ for sure, and probably AK most of the time as well.

[ImprovinNewbie]

tossing as in, no way he has that? i mean deep, you can limp with many more hands right and the odds make up for a little lost PF equity. so a tricky solid player (some one moving down from higher limit) could have a lot of stuff there. i think...

[dirtysanchez]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
on which street.... the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol ignore me i thought we had some money behind for river, getting it in on turn here is A+

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are good UTG players with 400 BB stacks to start, what could we possibly pay this off with given the action so far? People are calling off 400 BBs here with AK? (We'll neglect the limp-call PF, which seems a bit unlikely for AK, too.)

Now, obviously the read might be mistaken, but if UTG generally seemed kinda solid to me, that check/overcall line on the flop is setting off all kinds of alarm bells once the turn pairs the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

what is a "good" utg player limp/calling that beats us here? i think KJ and KQ have to be possibilities

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much, but that isn't really the point. Even if his range has nothing that beats us, if it has nothing that calls us either then betting has no point. And his range will of course have hands that beat us.

Are you calling KJ, KQ or AK there? I might think about AK but that deep, against an opponent who didn't seem sucky to me and given this action, I'm tossing KJ and KQ for sure, and probably AK most of the time as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

my point with that is that there really isnt a hand that a "good" UTG player has gotten here with at all so i wouldnt give him credit for folding any K here.

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Find a way to get your money in the middle. Sure, this could be TT or KT, but AK and KQ play it the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt a "really good" UTG would stack off with AK here. I would just call the turn instead of raising (like you did).

and wtf: 400BB deep you can't push this turn profitably versus most people. Villian would have to be completely brain-dead to think AK is good on a turn where 300BB go in.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
tossing as in, no way he has that? i mean deep, you can limp with many more hands right and the odds make up for a little lost PF equity. so a tricky solid player (some one moving down from higher limit) could have a lot of stuff there. i think...

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I meant if you shoved on the turn, I'm folding pretty much any nonboat K.