Theists: what should we REALLY do with atheists?

[miketurner]

A few suggestions...
*First, try reading the instructions... The Bible.
*Remember that decisions can take you out of God’s will but never out of His reach. - see 2 Timothy 2:13
*Ecclesiastes 7:8,9 - The end of the matter is better that it’s beginning, and patience is better than pride. Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools. (Hey, this pretty much applies to poker too /images/graemlins/laugh.gif )
*Don’t be a fake to try to persuade them by “putting on a show”. A person’s true character is revealed by what he does when no one is watching. - see Ephesians 6:6
*Be an optimists. Be happy with what you have & praise Him even in the tough times. Some people complain because God put thorns on roses, while others praise Him for putting roses among thorns. - see Philippians 4:8
*Be nice & not condescending. Remember, the measure of a man is not how great his faith is... but how great his love is. - see 1 Corinthians 13:13 also John 13:35. Heck, there is stuff about this all through the book.
*Be generous, both with time & money... but especially time. Time is more valuable than money because time is irreplaceable. The best way to forget your own problems is to help someone solve his. - see Philippians 2:4

Lots more, but I gotta go now. God bless.

[Lestat]

Mike-

Why would you post this in the SMP forum? Aren't there websites that cater to those who wish to be subjected to preaching?

[Nielsio]

Please stop stoning your family.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html

[Barrin6]

The whole time I was reading this, it reminded me of imperalism in Africa.

[LadyWrestler]

Seed, fertilize, feed, water, weed, and pray.

Have a nice day! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
Seed, fertilize, feed, water, weed, and pray.

Have a nice day! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't fertilize me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[hmkpoker]

Elect us for president

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike-

Why would you post this in the SMP forum? Aren't there websites that cater to those who wish to be subjected to preaching?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? If you take out “read bible”, you get a fairly good (albeit incomplete) philosophy
for life. It is certainly a more fitting thread of SMP than this one. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4628374&an=&page=0&v c=1) No one had a problem with it being posted in SMP. It seems consistent with your views that insulting God is ok for SMP but praising Him in any way, or even pointing out good life lessons from the Bible is not. I am afraid you have mistitled your bookmark of 2+2. It is not a link to http://www.atheists.org/ . I would not post this thread there. Here, I think it is fine.
BTW, besides “read your bible”, which of these things in my OP do you object to?

[Lestat]

Ahh.. I guess this is where we differ. I see no philosophical premise anywhere in the OP. My understanding is that philosophy has some amount of rational contemplation. I challenge you to point out anthing from your post which is based on logical conjecture. All I see is faith-based preaching.

[Lestat]

I re-read your post and do see many instances of logical conjecture. But... What does that have to do with "What should we REALLY do with atheists?"

[LadyWrestler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seed, fertilize, feed, water, weed, and pray.

Have a nice day! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't fertilize me. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, sir. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[MidGe]

The heading of this thread "Theists: wat should we really do with atheists?" encapsultates exactly what is wrong with some forms of theism. I am saying some forms with good cause and would not brand the Jewish faith with the same problems for instance. In fact I cannot reacall any animosity that I would have ever experienced towards a religious jew whereas it is a nearly inevitable experience with christians and muslims if they hold to one of the fundamental tenet of their that they have to proselyte or evangelise.

Why doesn't it never enter the mind of theists that they "should" not do anything with atheists. Just let them live and not try to convert or enforce their beliefs morals etc... on others. Those obnoxious theists should, like those examplary jews, live their lifes accordong to their moral standards, examplifying the goodness of their faith and leave others alone. The should eat kosher if they so whish but not impose that on others. They should not have abortions, not read poronographic material, etc.. but should not trying to hijack the political process to impose their morals on others, or keep on saying that anything that deviate from thier view should not be allowed by others. They should, in that, respect, follow the exemplary person of Jewish faith. It will not need be the end of their religions.. Judaism is far from extinct, but it may start to make atheists feel that they need be less concerned about erosion of their atheistic understanding of life.

At the end of the day the proof should be apparent from the lifestyle.

Of course I am talking about open-mindeness here, which is unfortunately contradicting the proselytizing aspect of some (many) faiths.


I have no issue, there is no irksomeness in me towards, the old and devout jewish guy who lives close to me. We greet each other, we speak, we have even spoken at length about his religion. I like him, admire his faith and appreciate his pragmatism. The same with some quakers people I used to know. But, oh boy, when it comes to those that feel the need to confirm their faith, to overcome their insecurities by, or due to their evangelism trying to, having everybody else to agree with them, I really find them obnoxious, unhealthy and dangerous to the world, regardless of their creed.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Why doesn't it never enter the mind of theists that they "should" not do anything with atheists. Just let them live and not try to convert or enforce their beliefs morals etc... on others. Those obnoxious theists should, like those examplary jews, live their lifes accordong to their moral standards...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem they face if they tried to follow your advice is that their moral code advocates proselytising. Thus, they have to try and persuade you or they would not be living a "good" life.

For what it's worth, I'm a theist who doesnt feel a moral obligation to convert others and, like you, find evangelical theists nauseating. I sympathise with their moral plight however, especially if they too find it nauseating /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem they face if they tried to follow your advice is that their moral code advocates proselytising. Thus, they have to try and persuade you or they would not be living a "good" life.


[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad you could see the point I was making, bunny.

I do think that the need (or worse, command) to proselytize or evangelize, is, indeed a first form of intolerance. As such I consider equally as unhealthy all those religions which have this a a fundamental tenet of their faith.

[bunny]

What do you think they should do though? If they truly believe it is morally wrong to leave you to live as a sinner, unchallenged, shouldnt they berate you from a street corner and thrust pamphlets at you?

I find this a very tough question - after all, evangelists just irritate me - a suicide bomber believing he is morally bound to murder is far scarier.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think they should do though? If they truly believe it is morally wrong to leave you to live as a sinner, unchallenged, shouldnt they berate you from a street corner and thrust pamphlets at you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that need is truly the evil inherent in some religions.


[ QUOTE ]
I find this a very tough question - after all, evangelists just irritate me - a suicide bomber believing he is morally bound to murder is far scarier.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a matter of degree and environment... christianity went thru a similar, or even worse era... and, dangerously to me, could do so again.

[LadyWrestler]

Hi!

I believe he was using the question as a way of sharing his ideas of how we Christians should REALLY try to deal with athiests, and to remind Christians of what the Bible has to say about it. Personally, I took the title and original post in that light and reread the verses he cited.

Have a nice day! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[LadyWrestler]

Thank you for the reminder, MikeTurner! God bless you and yours. -Sharon.

[miketurner]

As usual, MidGe took a dishonest approach to his posts. Please try reading my posts before you respond to them, not just the title... which was an obvious parody of this pointless thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4628374&an=&page=0&v c=1)

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi!

I believe he was using the question as a way of sharing his ideas of how we Christians should REALLY try to deal with athiests, and to remind Christians of what the Bible has to say about it. Personally, I took the title and original post in that light and reread the verses he cited.

Have a nice day! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the reminder, MikeTurner! God bless you and yours. -Sharon.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. Sometimes I need reminding too. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
& you’re welcome

[Prodigy54321]

from the first post I saw you start..(on your car accident etc) I though that you had a genuine intention to try to have unbiased discussions on the topics that we discuss in this forum....

but after reading this post, it seems clear to me that responses to your original posts sent you into defensive mode...which is where I believe this post comes in....it seems to me that you are actually more focused now on not opening yourself up to ridiculing comments...and thus make posts that have no rebuttal points available...and make you feel better about your beliefs....

I'm willing to accept that maybe I am wrong...not only on the issues of your posts, but also my understanding of your intentions...if another opinion is offered to me, but you seem to be too set in your opinions that you are not willing to offer any chance for rebuttal.

(I am not attacking the fact that you are not allowing any deviation from your faith..because this is not negotiable IMO...but your cander in general.)

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
As usual, MidGe took a dishonest approach to his posts. Please try reading my posts before you respond to them, not just the title... which was an obvious parody of this pointless thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4628374&an=&page=0&v c=1)

[/ QUOTE ]


Umm... Maybe YOU should read YOUR posts, or practice what you preach...

[miketurner]

I’m not positive I understand what you mean. I might, but not sure.

Everything I say is ridiculed by a small # of posters here... regardless of whether I “open myself up to ridiculing comments” or not. I don’t see anything defensive in my OP here though, as I am not defensive about it at all. I am truly at peace with it.


There is very little (if anything) here that is discussed in an unbiased form. But the blatant lies told about Christians here are many. The original thread of a similar title is a fine example of that. People might actually believe what they say, I guess. That is why a thread like this is needed. It says the truth about Christian beliefs and that seems to really upset the people who are determined to spread only lies.


My “purpose” of this thread was genuinely for the theists of this board. It has already been addressed by LadyWrestler.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As usual, MidGe took a dishonest approach to his posts. Please try reading my posts before you respond to them, not just the title... which was an obvious parody of this pointless thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4628374&an=&page=0&v c=1)

[/ QUOTE ]


Umm... Maybe YOU should read YOUR posts, or practice what you preach...

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean? Is it wrong for me to point out that you are dishonest? Or is it wrong that I said another thread was pointless?

[billygrippo]

instructions? the bible was written a long time ago. this is like using the instructions for my first TV on my new plasma screen.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
instructions? the bible was written a long time ago. this is like using the instructions for my first TV on my new plasma screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough... I mentioned a few instructions. Which of them is outdated and no longer useful?

[Borodog]

How about not women not wearing their hair in braids in church?

Edit: This is not meant to be a snarky remark. I am genuinely interested in why many theists feel it is OK to essentially cherry pick which pieces of the Word of God are to be adhered to and which aren't.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
How about not women not wearing their hair in braids in church?

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not sure how that applies to dealing with atheists, but I’ll play along anyway. First, please help me out & tell me where it says that.

[billygrippo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
instructions? the bible was written a long time ago. this is like using the instructions for my first TV on my new plasma screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough... I mentioned a few instructions. Which of them is outdated and no longer useful?

[/ QUOTE ]

"*First, try reading the instructions... The Bible. "

the bible has tons of outdated, out of context stories and morals. many more when taken literally.

granted it also has tons of good morals/guidelines (esp in some of the parables).

however, this book written by man thousands of years ago, is hardly "instructional". For you to tell us it is the "manual of life" is the same as me telling you "bob saget is the real God".

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about not women not wearing their hair in braids in church?

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not sure how that applies to dealing with atheists, but I’ll play along anyway. First, please help me out & tell me where it says that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry; I didn't mean for it to apply specifically to dealing with atheists. My apologies.

Let me look it up; that's one that my wife has used in the past, and she is a Christian.

[billygrippo]

on a side note, isnt sodomy a sin? your avatar is a sin then, no?

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about not women not wearing their hair in braids in church?

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not sure how that applies to dealing with atheists, but I’ll play along anyway. First, please help me out & tell me where it says that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry; I didn't mean for it to apply specifically to dealing with atheists. My apologies.

Let me look it up; that's one that my wife has used in the past, and she is a Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it looks like it wasn't specifically "in Church", but Timothy says:

"9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent . . ."

I know plenty of women who braid their hair, wear gold and pearls and expensive clothes, and who teach and have authority over men and are not silent. Is that a bad thing?

Peter 3:3 says some of the same things.

[miketurner]

Cool. I’ll have to get back to you on this when my wife gets home. My daughter is being a little demanding of my time right now. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
on a side note, isnt sodomy a sin? your avatar is a sin then, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

My avatar is an animation making a joke. I don’t think that a joke is a sin. If I find out it is, I will change it. Note that I don’t proclaim to be sinless anyway, but I do my best.

[Prodigy54321]

As I acknowledged in my response, I thought it possible that I was minunderstanding the point of your post (and thus your intentions)...and I now think that this could quite possibly be the case. My comments were pointed toward thee fact that this post includes points that IMO cannot be put to any real opinion or any refutation (with the exception of direct refutation of the validity of the Bible in full) And I'm not about to make an attempt at that. My point is that your post does not serve atheists much...I suppose it's not a crime to set aside a discussion for theists only, but seeing as this is a "spinoff" of a previous thread which included atheists in the discussion.... we would hope that posts include some info, not from the Bible, but from more "reliable" sources...although as a theist, I would not ask you to admit that the Bible is fundamentally flawed, it is also, not too much a burden I think to include other info as well.

I probably misunderstood the tone of your post, and for that I apologize, but If open discussion is what you are looking for in this forum, a more scientfic view of the world (at least for evidences purposes, would serve you greatly.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, it looks like it wasn't specifically "in Church", but Timothy says:

"9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it does mean “in church.” The chapter this is in is “Instructions on Worship.” I don’t suppose this has to mean in church, but it’s a fair assumption.

I think the point is that Christian women should not rely on such extremes of adornment for beauty. 1 Peter 3:3,4 (which you also cited as relating) says “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment... Instead, it should be that of your inner self...” The way that we view “braided hair” has certainly changed, but the message itself is very relevant today. Do you not think that true beauty is “on the inside”? This would be especially true in the church... “Are you there to worship, or to be seen?” kind of thing.

[ QUOTE ]
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent . . ."

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have me a little stumped on this part. I think this is talking about church. I don’t think this means that a woman cannot teach school, for example. As far as the “silent” part... I know there is a lot about men being still and silent as well (Ps 46:10, for example). I think it will take a lot of study on my part to fully understand the implications of this and this certainly gives me something to study. Thank you.

[miketurner]

Sure, I see your point. If this be the case, I think this same level of scrutiny should apply to all threads. I definitely see a double standard here. What “reliable” sources inspired the following threads?
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4717380&an=0&page=0&gone w=1#UNREAD)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post4717400 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4717400&an=0&page=0#Post 4717400)
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post4628374 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4628374&an=0&page=0#Post 4628374)
I’m not going to go on, but I easily could. You get the idea, I’m sure.

I think my posts could be challenged in an intelligent, thoughtful, and enlightening ways. It’s just that few people here are capable of doing so. Borodog always seems to step up to the plate, while some others seem to feel much more comfortable taking the low road... little insight, & lots of unfounded insults.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
A few suggestions...
*First, try reading the instructions... The Bible.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm an atheist, but I'll give "reading the instructions" contained the Bible a try. Here are a few I found interesting:

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)


As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)


Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.' Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)



Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

[Prodigy54321]

a lot of the posts in here have little to no value and are just "shouting matches" of insults..I think that "most" of these are for comedic value and are not meant to be taken too seriousley, but every once in a while we start serious discussion, and if this is the goal, it must have content that can be referred to in the same context (an atheist refuting one of your opinions on a subject that relates to the teachings of the Bible doesn't have much chance for any real discussion, but rather discussion on historical fact, or scientific truth is something that can be discussed among theists and atheists alike)

[miketurner]

Jesus established a new covenant with God. Search “covenant” in the concordance of your Bible. There are too many references for me to list here.

[miketurner]

Hmmm. I’ll definitely put some thought into what you are saying. Right now, it seems like you are saying that stating outlandish, or inflammatory things are welcome here... They are great conversation starters or at least comic relief. But saying a positive “philosophy” for life can be found in the Bible (and giving a few examples) is unworthy of a philosophy forum? You seem like a reasonable person, and it is quite possible that I am misunderstanding you here. I just think that reasonable conversation should at least be a goal here and everything shouldn’t have to be a fight. I’ve seen people fight over some pretty irrelevant things here. Is the “fight” more important than the “content”?

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus established a new covenant with God. Search “covenant” in the concordance of your Bible. There are too many references for me to list here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm aware of that, but that doesn't refute the point of my post.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jesus established a new covenant with God. Search “covenant” in the concordance of your Bible. There are too many references for me to list here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I'm aware of that, but that doesn't refute the point of my post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think it does just that.

[LadyWrestler]

Are we having fun yet, Mike? If only they knew and could understand what we have. Wow! Keep up the good fight!
-Sharon.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus established a new covenant with God. Search “covenant” in the concordance of your Bible. There are too many references for me to list here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean to say that god changed its tune? That he changed his standards? Then maybe he will change them again and you could be in trouble.

[purnell]

I'm going to pray for them tonight... all of us here actually... and there's nothing any of you can do to stop me. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MidGe]

purnell,

good on you! From my view point that's quite cool, just don't do any preaching to me from a totally ego-inflated and smug position of superiority. More than anything, I would be very happy if every christian did spent their time on just that instead of trying to impose their morals on me.

I truly think the world would be a better place then.

[miketurner]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we having fun yet, Mike? If only they knew and could understand what we have. Wow! Keep up the good fight!
-Sharon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehh, I have mixed feelings about what I am doing here. On one hand, I’ve been inspired to read my Bible more. I know you have said that you have read scripture that I have posted. These are good things.
On the other hand, the only fool bigger than the person who “knows it all” is the person who argues with him. Read Proverbs 9:7 - 9

[LadyWrestler]

"Read Proverbs 9:7 - 9"


Good point! I did!

We have planted seeds (sometimes poorly in my case) that may or may not take root. If one does it will have been worth it. I get in God's way sometimes, and I am going to disengage from this part of 2+2 for a while. (My e-mail is in my profile. If anyone is sincerely interested and wants to know more from me, I trust God to direct them there.)

Thank you, Mike. God bless you and your family!

-Sharon.