FH facing strange river push

[ciki57]

Villain is 25/9/1.2

At first i though this is insta-call.

But is it really? There are a lot of hands that that beat us: AA,KK,QQ,JJ,99, (8x, but would he raise PF in BB with that?)
We only beat a bluff here (or QT if villain is a mega-donk).
We split with AJ (would any other jack raise PF?)

Do we actually have to lay this one down???
Or do we see a bluff here 1/3 of times? We may have induced it with turn check...

Also what do you guys think about flop raise? Is this OK?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

CO ($50)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($64.71)</font>
SB ($50)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($42.90)</font>
UTG ($54.62)
MP ($56.31)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $1.5</font>, UTG calls $1.50, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $3</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, BB calls $9.

Turn: ($30.25) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($30.25) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB bets $28.90 (All-In), Hero ....

[FastPlaySlow]

Tough. I feel like folding but would probably call.

[Marshall28]

limp calling w/ this hand is soooooooo terrible.
flop bet is really bad too.
flop call is really bad.
river is easy fold.

[Marshall28]

oh, i thought u bet it and he raised it. your raise is still terrible though.

[sebbb]

why is the flop raise terrible? please explain as it is something I do sometimes when I sense weakness

I fold the river too

[Marshall28]

its terrible because you have showdown value, and you are essentially turning your hand into a bluff.

if u wanna do this when u "sense weakness" ... do it when u dont have a hand. in this situation you can call and check down if he is so weak with little worry of letting him catch up.

what type of hands are u expecting to call your raise here? ... any hand that doesnt contain an 8? ... unlikely.

[ciki57]

So should i fold to his raise PF?? I mean the pot was multiway , I'm on the button with QJs. I'dont think a call here is terrible.

Flop. Is calling better, or do you suggest dumping TP right there? AFAIK his bet could be just standard c-bet with AK,AQ.

[ciki57]

[ QUOTE ]

what type of hands are u expecting to call your raise here? ... any hand that doesnt contain an 8? ... unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would 8X raise PF from BB?

[Brian O'Nolan]

If villain is a standard 25/9... what is he raising from the BB and calling your flop raise with that you are beating? Zero, nothing, nada. This is AA/KK/QQ/JJ and a pretty standard river fold. The flop raise is OK, he could have AK/AQ easily, but once he calls that you are usually drawing to 2 outs. You need a real solid read that he would play AK like this to call the river.

[Marshall28]

never limp on the button. EVER. its that simple. if im in sb or bb or whatever and u limp on the button, im gonna raise it up w/ any playable hand. you will then be in check/fold mode pretty much 95 percent of the time. u want to be pushing the action, not giving control away to another player.

ill say it one more time, YOU HAVE SHOWDOWN VALUE!!! so raising his bet is pointless. i am very aware that he could have pretty much anything and just be c-betting. thats the reason you call. if you raise, like i said before, u r turning your hand into a bluff. you dont need to raise him because you will win at a showdown a good majority of the time if it is the case that he has nothing. by raising, you just give villain an easy decision by allowing him to fold hands that missed, and you are essentially building a pot for him when he does have a hand.

heres something to think about. i will never bet a flop that has the bottom card paired when i have paired the top card. there is almost ZERO value in doing so. youll hardly ever get called by a hand you beat, and you wont be able to get any value later in the hand.

[ciki57]

[ QUOTE ]
never limp on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't if i'm first in, but UTG limped before me.

[Marshall28]

lol, is that all you took out of everything i said? ...

[ciki57]

[ QUOTE ]


ill say it one more time, YOU HAVE SHOWDOWN VALUE!!! so raising his bet is pointless. i am very aware that he could have pretty much anything and just be c-betting. thats the reason you call. if you raise, like i said before, u r turning your hand into a bluff. you dont need to raise him because you will win at a showdown a good majority of the time if it is the case that he has nothing. by raising, you just give villain an easy decision by allowing him to fold hands that missed, and you are essentially building a pot for him when he does have a hand.

heres something to think about. i will never bet a flop that has the bottom card paired when i have paired the top card. there is almost ZERO value in doing so. youll hardly ever get called by a hand you beat, and you wont be able to get any value later in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes sense. Ty, for the comments!

[Check_The_Nuts]

[censored] saw you raised the flop. Nice try on the bluff, you gotta fold now (as stated above).

I don't think you should always raise button, I steal from button like 40-60% a lot of the time, I shouldn't be raising 3-4 limpers all the time with junk cuz they always gunna call. Versus single UTG limp here I raise probably 80% of the time unless blinds are super loose like 50/2/whatever types and are just gunna call anyways.