busted flush draw, call down river bet with A high?

[so sick bro]

Never played with villain before have been at the table for 2 orbits and villain seems not to be getting too out of line at all but is in there and has raised a few pots so far and has just finished debating with another player over whether or not they're going to play a 200 HU. Villain wasted very little time after my river check making his bet. He had seemed like a good enough player that with the massively drawy board out there he would definitely repop me at SOME point he had any type of real hand. With the money already in the pot is it worth calling down here banking on villain having a lower fl draw or possibly dry straight draw?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($22.70)
UTG ($8.35)
MP ($24.65)
CO ($18.75)
Button ($4.70)
Hero ($24.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.75) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.75</font>, BB calls $0.75, UTG folds.

Turn: ($2.25) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.75</font>, BB calls $1.75.

River: ($5.75) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3.

Final Pot: $11.75

[iamVillaiNmo]

lol. This isn't limt. You def. should not be calling this river.

Second...I you probably want to try to c/r this draw on the flop instead of leading both streets.

Third, I don't just limp here in SB. You should raise or fold.

[ama0330]

This is not where to make money in NLHE, I think that your flop lead is okay but I'd just give up on the turn, there is a fair chance you'll get a free river anyway but double barreling a drawy flop like this is asking for a call. As far as the river, he's called two streets already so all you beat is a lower busted draw and veruss an infinite range (given that nobody raised preflop) you are nowhere near good enough often enough on this river to make a profitable call.

If I were one tabling and had played with villain for many hours before I might do this, but in this case I would just check fold the turn. Double barreling at uNL is generally -EV. Theres no need to get caught up in excessive overthinking, just let it go.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Third, I don't just limp here in SB. You should raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is okay out of position particularly at a really loose table where you are likely to get paid off if you hit big or catch 2pair or something. Being OOP with a marginal hand is okay in a limped pot where postflop is simple but OOP in a raised pot you will be compelled to make a cbet and against very loose opponents this is generally -EV out of position, even three handed.

[so sick bro]

[ QUOTE ]
lol. This isn't limt. You def. should not be calling this river.


[/ QUOTE ]

That shouldn't change whether you call down light or not, what do I give him, potbetting the river after flat calling flop and turn when two overs fall what do you see him making such a strong bet on the river with? Q4? Q10? 56? I don't think so. That riverbet screams either bluff or monster and from the short time watching this guy I don't think he flat calls two streets with a monster on such a drawy board

[iamVillaiNmo]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not where to make money in NLHE, I think that your flop lead is okay but I'd just give up on the turn, there is a fair chance you'll get a free river anyway but double barreling a drawy flop like this is asking for a call. As far as the river, he's called two streets already so all you beat is a lower busted draw and veruss an infinite range (given that nobody raised preflop) you are nowhere near good enough often enough on this river to make a profitable call.

If I were one tabling and had played with villain for many hours before I might do this, but in this case I would just check fold the turn. Double barreling at uNL is generally -EV. Theres no need to get caught up in excessive overthinking, just let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is goot but I really think C/R is teh best play here because he might just check the flop in which you can safely just check/call a turn.

I know you are losing on some bets but you aren't trying to build all sorts of money in here when this pot is unraised.

I would check/raise flop and might call a push, if i felt like gambling.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
what do I give him, potbetting the river after flat calling flop and turn when two overs fall what do you see him making such a strong bet on the river with?

[/ QUOTE ]

My answer to this is "who cares?"

It doesnt actually matter what he has, what matters is that it is simply not profitable for you to call here. Sure you could call and be right, and you could call and be wrong, but long term you are going to breakeven at best in this play and its totally irrelevant whether you have him beat or not.

Its fun to analyse plays like this but this is a hand you should just be tossing in future as there is no value in it. You should concentrate on putting yourself in situations where the decisions are easy both situationally and mathematcially.

I know that there is a strong chance that you are good here but getting used to just not being able to call was a huge step forward for me as this play is low reward and high variance. Its the type of play which could be critical in the late stages of a tournament but in a cash game, really you can just fold every time here and make money.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
I would check/raise flop and might call a push, if i felt like gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offence but this is terrible advice, never do this.

[so sick bro]

tyvm for the detailed analysis and advice ama. If i could replay the hand I would definitely check the turn. It also turns out I was wrong about thinking villain would repop me on this board with a made hand, he had Q5.

[br.bm]

super easy fold
call if he bets $0,25 or $0,5

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
tyvm for the detailed analysis and advice ama. If i could replay the hand I would definitely check the turn. It also turns out I was wrong about thinking villain would repop me on this board with a made hand, he had Q5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analysis of the hand is not incorrect but the warped logic that the players at this level use makes any kind of EV calulation impossible and useless. Trust me, just throw these hands away in future - you will see some seriosuly incredible [censored] shown down here!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif