Minorities and their pride

[SlowHabit]

I do not know if this is allowed in this forum but I’ll take a chance on it. I also hope people do not get offended on this issue.

I am a Vietnamese-American and while I do not go around flipping signs and yelling “AZN pride,” I know I get extra satisfied whenever I see Asians do well in something or in any competition. I don’t particularly like Yao Ming but I love it when he takes Erick Dampier and Chris Kaman to school. I don’t watch ice skating but I smile every time Michelle Kwan wins. In other words, I enjoy Asians whooping a.ss.

I know many people in the Vietnamese community do shady stuffs to get to where they are right now but I have a hard time “hating” their styles, especially when we don’t have wicked jump-shots and we ain’t slinging crack rock either because we don’t want to get send back to Vietnam. But no matter what they do (besides killing/empting saving accounts obviously), I don’t have a problem with them. In fact, I’m damn proud of whatever they’ve accomplished so far. We came here about 35 years ago and we’re building a very strong Vietnamese community in Orange County. Some of us are actually involved in politics and are winning some seats albeit small positions.

Best of all, we kind of “stick” together. Not in the sense that all Vietnamese love each other but we show support to each other whenever one is in a competition. I’m pretty sure this is the main reason why Dat Pham won “The Last Comic Standing.” It wasn’t because he was funny (I cringed at almost all of his jokes. In fact, I thought his jokes were embarrassing). He won because he was Vietnamese. How do I know this? Because my mom and my friends’ moms called in (using our home phone and all the cell phones moms had their hands on) to vote for Dat. They probably didn’t understand what was coming out of his mouth because they didn’t even watch the show. They knew he was Vietnamese so they called in; even radio stations announced the competition to the community so we could show our support. For this reason alone, I know for sure if I was ever on TV for a competition, I know I would get at least 750,000 votes without any real talent.

Enough with my Viet pride. The main purpose of this post is for me to find out if other minorities feel the same way as I do. I do not have many friends outside my Vietnamese circle so I do not know. Do Indians/Koreans/Chinese/Japanese/etc have the same sense of support within their communities? In addition, I want to know what you guys think about my sentiments. Am I racist for enjoying so much of my ethnicities’ success? How do you feel if you were a participant in a competition like “The Last Comic Standing” and lost even though your jokes were obviously funnier? Would you get upset (who wouldn’t when they lose) that you lost because a particular ethnic community came together and just vote whatever and would you hate/dislike them for it?

Thanks.

[El Diablo]

SH,

The most surprising thing to me about your post is that you seem to also get a lot of pride when other Asians like Chinese do well. I've found that most of my Vietnamese/Korean/Chinese etc. have a lot of pride in their ethnicity, but don't identify very much with other Asian ethnicities.

BTW, I just locked a similar thread that talked about some of this stuff: Dids on pride (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=9166741&an=0&page=0#Post 9166741). I'll often lock older threads like that unless there's some particular reason to keep them active.

[Duke]

@Diablo

Yeah, I've noticed that too, but I figure that's a result of nationalistic indoctrination at an early age crippling the natural instincts of people to identify with their DNA.

@OP

Your feelings are completely in line with wanting your DNA to propagate. There's nothing "wrong" with it. That would be like saying that animals shouldn't look out for their own young above those of other species.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

kind of offtopic, but whatever. convo I had 2 days ago at work:

KBZ to a Japanese girl I work with: boy how about all that Japanese media coverage of Daisuke Matsuzaka (new Japanese Red Sox pitcher) - expectations sure are high!

JG: Yes, they are KBZ. I just don't know why he would want to come to America to play. Just the money?

KBZ: Well, apart from the money, lots of these guys are super competitive, and really want to compete against the best players in the world, so they come to America.

JG: (looks at me with eyes of death, ends conversation)

KBZ: (stammering) umm...ummm...kind of like how European basketball players come to the NBA??

Cliff notes: don't insult Japanese baseball, or probably anything Japanese.

[fish2plus2]

Slow,

This thread sucks, why dont you talk about being born in Vietnam, living in a black community, coming to America and all that other stuff you alluded to once in OOT?

FWIW, I am yellow on the inside.

[MTUCache]

Personally, I think the "pride" that comes from things like this is comical.

You're rooting for people you don't even know (and normally wouldn't even care about), just because they have something in common with you?

Should I root for people because they wear glasses? Or because they're overweight? It's just as rediculous really. They'd identify with me about as much as they'd identify with anybody else. It's a level of unquestioned adoration that rivals teenage girls and boy bands... what exactly is this link you have to them, and do you think it matters to them?

Exactly what is it about their success that you enjoy? The idea that you could do the same thing and succeed? Or the fact that they're "sticking it" to all the other groups that have held you down in your life? What elevates them to this hero status?

I won't be so cliche/redneck as to say: "If white people talked like this they'd be accused of being racist!", but I don't see how my sentiments could be far from that. If I were to take additional pleasure from watching someone white beat on some other culture (in whatever form of competition), there wouldn't be a question that I was a horrible person.

With all that said, I can certainly relate to the "rooting for the underdog" theme... almost everybody does, because deep down everybody has some insecurities and they like to see people held down overcome. But when you apply that to an entire race or group of people, regardless of whether they really are "underdogs", doesn't that just show your insecurities about being associated with that entire group?

How much different is this than saying "we" whenever you're talking about your favorite sports team... like you had something to do with their success. Sure, enjoy their success if you're a fan, but don't be a fan just because of their success. If you're going to root for them, don't just do it when they win, or when they "overcome".... you know?

[fmxda]

My guess is that OP, along with other Asian-Americans, feels pride in his race because of similar experiences with and a common history of racism and discrimination. Good examples of this happening in other groups would be LGBTs and blacks.

I would venture that El D's friends are probably from backgrounds where Asians are not a tiny minority. From my own experience, Asian Americans from a major urban area, or college campus generally feel less pride in the entire Asian race than those in the Midwest, or in a small town. I see this translating to ethnic pride in sports as well. Hispanics of all ethnicities probably feel a lot of pride in Scott Gomez, one of the few Hispanic NHL players, but I bet allegiances probably divide into national pride--Dominican, Puerto Rican, etc--when it comes to baseball.

[ QUOTE ]
Should I root for people because they wear glasses? Or because they're overweight?

[/ QUOTE ]
You can argue that near-sighted and overweight people are discriminated against... but not to extent that racism exists and hurts, and also these characteristics not something they are born into, and generally they can be changed.

[ QUOTE ]
I won't be so cliche/redneck as to say: "If white people talked like this they'd be accused of being racist!", but I don't see how my sentiments could be far from that.

[/ QUOTE ]
White people can easily feel pride in each other. See Aussies rooting for Joe Hachem in the WSOP, expatriates pulling for each other in Argentina or Thailand.

White pride in the United States doesn't happen much because a) whites are a majority in a lot of places, b) whites generally do not suffer from much discrimination. But sometimes being white is a hindrance and means being part of a minority. You can be sure as hell that a lot of white hiphop and r&b artists identify with and feel pride in Eminem and Justin Timberlake for overcoming barriers in that industry.

[maryfield48]

It's a double-edged sword. Terms like 'credit to his race' or it's opposite number 'traitor to his race' stem from the same sense of identity.

Apart from any biological imperative, it is almost trite to observe that those who are defined by others (and to some extent themselves) by their differences from the majority are going to experience common cause, and even communality, with others of their group.

It is an insidious (and harmful to both majority and minority) effect of group-prejudice.

[fmxda]

[ QUOTE ]
Apart from any biological imperative, it is almost trite to observe that those who are defined by others (and to some extent themselves) by their differences from the majority are going to experience common cause, and even communality, with others of their group.

It is an insidious (and harmful to both majority and minority) effect of group-prejudice.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not a simple deviation from the majority that causes us to feel intense pride in a group. A lot of it has to do with the discrimination and prejudice that was and still is experienced by a lot of these groups.

I wouldn't call it biological or hardwired, but just look at the history of minorities and their persecution in ANY culture, whether it's Jews, Gypsies, early Christians, Tibetans, Native Americans, aborigines, etc. and it's no wonder why they feel the need to be insular and identify themselves so strongly with others of similar experiences.

[pokerraja]

Yes, OP, It is natural for minorities to support one another moreso than normal. This is something that a white person simply can't relate to. You must walk in our shoes to truly understand some of our behaviors. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

[7ontheline]

It's not just about discrimination, or at least not the commonly seen most negative sense of the word. Part of being a minority is that you get stereotyped to some degree - you are pigeonholed into what observers consider a "standard" archetype for your race. This isn't blatant racism, but maybe just a subtle mindset. It's always nice to see people of your race achieve, and especially achieve in areas outside of the norm. This causes people to look upon that race either as successful or more versatile than previously thought. So when they look at you, they think of good images in regards to your ethnicity as opposed to negative. Everyone (not just bigots) is pre-judging you based on your appearance. Obviously, the extent to which this colors their final opinion of you is extremely variable, but I'd rather that image be a positive one. White people are such a dominant majority that their race isn't often looked at as a determining factor in first impressions. Instead, it's going to be things like how they are dressed, if they are overweight, etc.

[KotOD]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think the "pride" that comes from things like this is comical.

You're rooting for people you don't even know (and normally wouldn't even care about), just because they have something in common with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there is a good chance that they may be related:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/8/214236/6651

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[natedogg]

I feel the same way about my mountain white trash heritage.

Whenever I see someone doing something successful and they are a snaggle-toothed stringy-haired white trash loser with faded ring on their back pocket from the long-term storage of a chewing tobacco tin, well it just warms my heart and makes me feel proud.

GO KID ROCK! YOU ARE THE MAN!

Even better if they are part of an apocalyptic-minded christian cult.

natedogg

[Banks2334]

[ QUOTE ]


I know many people in the Vietnamese community do shady stuffs to get to where they are right now but I have a hard time “hating” their styles, especially when we don’t have wicked jump-shots and we ain’t slinging crack rock either because we don’t want to get send back to Vietnam. But no matter what they do (besides killing/empting saving accounts obviously), I don’t have a problem with them. In fact, I’m damn proud of whatever they’ve accomplished so far.



[/ QUOTE ]
So its ok for Vietnamese to do "shady stuffs" just because you're Vietnamese?
My g-parents came to this country 60 years ago from eastern europe. They held people from their country to a higher standard so that they would fit into American culture and not bring shame onto their nationality. In the past 10-15 years there has been another big influx of people from the "homeland" and some of them are doing "shady stuffs". Their behaviour is criticized and looked down upon. No excuses are made because of where they come from. Cultural difference perhaps? I don't know. Any thoughts?

[orange]

I'm not really sure I feel the same way as you do. I think it really depends on the environment your brought up in and those who you associate with.

I grew up in FL and then Nebraska. Neither of which have a large asian population (I'm Chinese) and I really can't relate with many asians. I have very few asian friends and the majority of my friends are white.

I can sort've agree when you say that you'll root for Yao or whatever because he's asian (my parents do alot). But IMO, thats only because whites are a heavy majority in the United States. If you look 100 years ago when the United States was still fairly diverse in regards to people being 100% Irish/German/French/Chinese/spanish/Italian/etc (and not so mixed as today), you can still see plenty of 'pride' for your race.

[Anacardo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we don’t have wicked jump-shots and we ain’t slinging crack rock

[/ QUOTE ]

great movie

[/ QUOTE ]

Shee-it, it's hard bein' young, from the slums, eatin' five-cent gums, wonderin' where ya next meal's comin' from...

Makes me wanna grab the nine and the shottie.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
SH,

The most surprising thing to me about your post is that you seem to also get a lot of pride when other Asians like Chinese do well. I've found that most of my Vietnamese/Korean/Chinese etc. have a lot of pride in their ethnicity, but don't identify very much with other Asian ethnicities.


[/ QUOTE ]

Other Asians I know just generalize to Asian, as opposed to their race in particular. This one Chinese girl I knew was complaining about the way the US treated Japanese during WW2. I said to her, "You do realize that China was at war with Japan during the same time period, don't you?" She said it didn't matter, Asians have to stick together.

[Shadowrun]

im pretty sure the way the japs treated the chinese, or vice versa was pretty awful

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the way the japs treated the chinese, or vice versa was pretty awful

[/ QUOTE ]

don't you mean the "chinks"? of you're going to use slurs, use them all.

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the way the japs treated the chinese, or vice versa was pretty awful

[/ QUOTE ]

don't you mean the "chinks"? of you're going to use slurs, use them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

confused/images/graemlins/confused.gif japs is short for japanese (as well as jewish A\american princess but that is for another thread)

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im pretty sure the way the japs treated the chinese, or vice versa was pretty awful

[/ QUOTE ]

don't you mean the "chinks"? of you're going to use slurs, use them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

confused/images/graemlins/confused.gif japs is short for japanese (as well as jewish A\american princess but that is for another thread)

[/ QUOTE ]

This reminds me of the time I had a manager I was working for who got hired from a company in Toronto (I'm American, of Japanese descent, FWIW).

He asked about some good ethnic restaurants in the area (San Jose, CA) and I told him, "If you head out to this area between Jackson and Taylor and 5th and 6th, there's a couple of good Japanese restaurants there."

He says, "Oh yeah, isn't that called Japtown or something?" I said, "Yeah, I think so...in about 1942."

So, to make a long story longer, no, it's not "short for Japanese". It would be approximately on par with using (n-word), except, rightly or wrongly, the public in general and this board in particular is more sensitive to anti-Black slurs than it is to anti-Asian slurs.

One of the drawbacks of being a "model minority", I guess. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Shadowrun]

well the difference to me is when i used the words japs with asian friends they never say anthing about it
but if i would use the n words that would not be the case.

i mean for godsake im russian (parents) when people use the word ruskis for short do i get mad, do i say that it is racist no because it would be retarded.

you can not argue that japs is on par with the n- word.

even more so should i make my jap friends use the word gaikokujin as opposed to Gaijin.

[fmxda]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

You cannot argue that "Jap" is on par with "Ruski"

[ahnuld]

jap is obviously bad, and not knowing that is on par with not realising saying "I got jewed" is bad.


OP, I feel the same way within the jewish community.

[Shadowrun]

"It is considered by some to be the shortened version of the word for Japan." I am part of those people but personally i like my japanese friends and culture (i got to a college with lots of asian kids), and well id stop using the word jap.

my last question is should i make my japanese friends use the word gaikokujin as opposed to Gaijin.?

p.s. do you really think the n-word and jap is comparable?

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
jap is obviously bad, and not knowing that is on par with not realising saying "I got jewed" is bad.


OP, I feel the same way within the jewish community.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am jewish as well but i could care less that sandy koufax, sean green, or whoever are jews.
(i just used sports as an example)

[El Diablo]

Guys,

No more posts on Jap. Refer to Wiki link posted above for any questions.

[AggroFish]

[ QUOTE ]
...We came here about 35 years ago and we’re building a very strong Vietnamese community in Orange County. Some of us are actually involved in politics and are winning some seats albeit small positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Westmister/garden grove scares me.

[MarkSummers]

I have no pride. If I weren't a self-hating Jew, I'd be a plain old anti-semite.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, OP, It is natural for minorities to support one another moreso than normal. This is something that a white person simply can't relate to. You must walk in our shoes to truly understand some of our behaviors. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do people really see this behavior as some mystery?

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...We came here about 35 years ago and we’re building a very strong Vietnamese community in Orange County. Some of us are actually involved in politics and are winning some seats albeit small positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Westmister/garden grove scares me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did it get bad recently?

[AggroFish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...We came here about 35 years ago and we’re building a very strong Vietnamese community in Orange County. Some of us are actually involved in politics and are winning some seats albeit small positions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Westmister/garden grove scares me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did it get bad recently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, bad attempt at humor. I live not too far away in Newport.