Hand reading 101 - LC but not NC

[Jouster777]

What is villain's range and what do you do?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($19.30)
UTG ($17.10)
MP ($5.80)
CO ($31)
Hero ($29.35)
SB ($15.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $5</font>, Hero calls $3.25.

Flop: ($10.85) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $26 (All-In)</font>, Hero ?

[Gelford]

Hero 4-bets preflop, but as played calls push ... also hero tries to establish reads, while he plays (unless this is villian's first hand or so, but against unknown, I assume major donkness at 25NL)

[Sean Fraley]

NOTE: I'm grinding through NL10 right now, and don't necessarily know what it's like at NL25.

A lot of players will 3-bet TT+, AK, AQ and the like. Particularly donkish players will shove a flop with TPTK or any over pair. Since you failed to 4-bet preflop, you could reasonably consider this the range that you are up against. The only hands that you are afraid of are AA or JJ, your splitting with KK, and you are ahead of the rest. I would probably call this and laugh if he shows a bluffed AK, or go kick a kitten if he shows AA or JJ.

I would 4-bet all-in preflop with this.

[Gelford]

This is a BBV post with EMc looking it soon I suppose, so I will allow myself to keep a light tone.

No need to belitte yourself for grinding 10NL, an allthough I do not play US friendly sites and there is a rumour that they are thougher than the Euro sites, I really do not think you should expect much more from 25NL .. sure, every level gets harder when you move up, but the stumbling block for noobs is usually 50NL and not 25NL /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Jouster777]

If you think this is BBV you are missing the point/lesson...its an important one and I'm surprised you don't see it

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think this is BBV you are missing the point/lesson...its an important one and I'm surprised you don't see it

[/ QUOTE ]

OK ???


Well, jouster ... in that case I politely must ask you why you without any read (or at least any read that has been shared with us) preflop with eff. stacks of only 117BB are not willing to 4-bet kings ??

You might answer that it is to disguise your hand, after which I must ask how can you not call against an unknown on the flop. At a 25NL table he might do this as a bluff, with overs, with a draw or with TP. Sure he might have something, but you seem way ahead of his range.

Then again I am the kind of player, that assumes donk when facing unknowns at 25NL and not the other way around.

[Jouster777]

The reason I didn't 4-bet is because I recognized the limp reraise for what it was AA/KK ALWAYS at microstakes against a non-maniac (a read I didn't give). Since I have KK he must have AA (almost).

The other reason I didn't 4-bet is because I was taken aback enough to botch the hand more than one way. If I trust the read I play for set value if I am going to call on the flop I have to push preflop. I called and called...worst of all options.

Edit: before I called I typed I know you have AA because of the limp RR...just to botch it one more way. It wasn't my finest hand but its important to recognize the limp RR which I thought was well know to regs but impt. for noobs.

[Gelford]

You made a read and went with it ... and for that I will never critize a pokerplayer /images/graemlins/smile.gif

My read in this situation is different (at least against an unknown) and that is what makes poker fun

[boycalledroy]

Push push PUSH push PUSH PUSH. He will call preflop and show AQ/AK/QQ/JJ/1010. Hell I've seen AJ and KQ too. Push the money preflop if its AA its a cooler if he had a worse hand _you_ made the mistake!

[TheDespot]

I do not think you can just assume A-A here without a specific reason (read, etc.).

[udbrky]

If he had AA or JJ, the flop overbet push is quite puzzling.

Did you get hurt when you tripped trying to get to the call button?

[Sean Fraley]

Sorry, I missed the limp-reraise when I was reading it. These are easy to recognize at the table, but I sometimes miss them in posts. This is almost always AA or KK.

Fold.

[Lordy]

Push pre-flop or call flop.
If you really think his range is EXACTLY {AA, KK} you should fold pre-flop. You aren't getting odds for set-value.

[ImprovinNewbie]

JJ, QQ, also KK but HIGHLY unlikely, and AA... the only other hand i put him on is AJ in the hands of a donk.... i do call here. i dont like it.

[ImprovinNewbie]

i didnt notice the limp RR in the post.... that tightens the range a lot. i also think only to AA pretty much... maybe people do this with kings but ive only seen it done with AA.

[Johnny Drama]

did everyone notice that CO limped behind two limpers and then reraised? it's been my experience that this is a real hand a LOT less often than an open-limp/reraise.

I call this all day.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
did everyone notice that CO limped behind two limpers and then reraised? it's been my experience that this is a real hand a LOT less often than an open-limp/reraise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your experience and mine appear to differ drastically. I've never seen a single limp-reraise that wasn't at least QQ, and that was only one time.

[haz31]

fold preflop if you wont felt this on a non-ace flop

[spacetime]

I don't agree with thoughts like this. Its called gaining information and using it to determine whether or not you are ahead. I am not saying that he should fold here, I am saying that IN GENERAL the lack of an overcard to Hero's pair does not make everything fine and dandy.

[Freelancer]

ugh I'd snapcall the flop.

The assumption that every limp/reraise is AA/KK is EXTREMELY dangerous both for your development and decisions. A while back there was a thread in I believe mid stakes about limp reraises from datamined stats and what hands villain would do this with. To most people's suprise it was a mix of AA/KK and occasionally QQ but also A LOT of junk, since junk will get to showdown way less often than a big pair you would have to assume that this is junk atleast half the time (whoaa yeah seriously). Now this might not be correct at these stakes, but your hand is WAY to strong to depend so much on the general tendency of players.

If its a mistake to call with KK here its a very marginal one (based on basic math KK is going to be good most of the time EVEN against a lrr), if its a mistake to fold with KK here its a very big one...



Meh I'm fairly that some people are going to berate me for this but whatever. Preventing big mistakes is more important that preventing small ones, if you agree with me that it is close either way (I hope you do) than a call is obviously the better option (this will never be a big mistake).




Ps. Ask any random 2p2'er if its a big mistake if you never fold KK in a 3bet pot on a non-ace flop, I'd bet 99% would say its a marginal mistake at best. Now ask the if its a big mistake if you occasionally fold KK in a 3bet pot on a non-ace flop, now the answers will be A LOT more diverse.
Pss. I am often snapcalling open pushes in decent sized pots with every big pair, its amazing how often air shows up here. Also its obv. that villain had AA in this example, this means extremely little though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Brian O'Nolan]

[ QUOTE ]
did everyone notice that CO limped behind two limpers and then reraised? it's been my experience that this is a real hand a LOT less often than an open-limp/reraise.

I call this all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

For reals. Not 4 betting here pre is awful. There are plenty of players at this level who just don't fold queens and are limp reraising them for value. You should be 4 betting this all day if limp reraiser is UTG too.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
ugh I'd snapcall the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I called the flop.

I am a firm believer in the uNL paradox "Any maxim that includes the word NEVER or ALWAYS is never correct". This trumps the maxim "a limp reraise is always AA/KK". But there is still value in knowing the maxims.

If I'm going to call the flop I really should just push preflop, no?

Of course he had AA...but[ QUOTE ]
this means extremely little though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ugh I'd snapcall the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I called the flop.

I am a firm believer in the uNL paradox "Any maxim that includes the word NEVER or ALWAYS is never correct". This trumps the maxim "a limp reraise is always AA/KK". But there is still value in knowing the maxims.

If I'm going to call the flop I really should just push preflop, no?

Of course he had AA...but[ QUOTE ]
this means extremely little though. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to push preflop at all, although I prefer pushing preflop more with KK than AA. If villain is likely on a bluff with air your better of calling preflop and letting him continue the bluff. This also goes the same when his range is JJ+ and he gets it all in preflop with all of them, than its obviously more correct to shove preflop (scare cards can hit postflop that might scare the lower PP's).

[corsakh]

I am a little confused following this...

Say you have a read on him and you put him on AA-KK with 100% certainty preflop because of his limp raise. Fine.

He can have: AsAc, AsAh, AsAd, AcAh, AcAd, AhAc and KsKd. Thats 7 hands total.

You beat: 0 hands.
You draw: 1 hand.
You loose: 6 hands.

You are not given implied odds to hit a set.

My question is: why are you calling preflop?

- if you put him on AA-KK range you have to fold preflop;
- if you put him on AA-QQ range you have to call and shove on the flop unless a Q comes out, then you have to fold the flop.
- if you put him on a wide range, you have to shove preflop
or call and reevaluate on the flop.

However, you can not put someone on AA-KK, call them preflop and then think wtf to do on the flop. Too late, train is gone.

[Miko]

One general question considering putting people on ranges.

The less you know a villain, the tighter you assume his range to be? Or the looser...?

What I mean, do you include marginal hands you see in this spot by other (known) players or do you assume he has what he's representing and what he could likely have based on his (logical) line?

I'm struggling with this cause sometimes you put marginal hands (and see others do it) based on what we've seen before by other (less gifted) players but that are the bad players most of the time and we don't see the junk good players do it with.

So, in this example: Is putting him on AJ too here correct? Cause you've seen bad players do it.. (but you don't know if he's bad!).

[Antinome]

IMO an EP LRR is usually QQ+, but a LP overlimp RR is often someone who is merely offended at being squeezed. I wouldn't put them on anything better than AJ+99+.

Obviously 4bet preflop.