Bad end of a straight flush draw, do i want to get it in here?

[halperin]

How do i want to go about playing this striaght flush draw. if a ten comes i lose to any Queen. do i normally want to get it all in here, fold, or call and see if i hit....

what about in a normal situation with a stragiht flush draw where im not drawing to the lower end, do i want to get it all in on the flop/turn?


Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $60.75
CO: $58.55
Button: $66.10
Hero: $50.25
BB: $49.55

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.5, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.2</font>, BB calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $5</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($16.5, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

River: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($16.5, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

Results:
Final pot: $16.5

[Sean Fraley]

An OESFD is basically a made hand for all intents and purposes. You are greater than 50% to hit either the straight or flush by the river, and in this case two of your outs are to a hand that is likely the nuts. 3-bet all-in and hope for the best, just like you would if your hole cards were a pair of eights.

[alphatmw]

[ QUOTE ]
An OESFD is basically a made hand for all intents and purposes. You are greater than 50% to hit either the straight or flush by the river, and in this case two of your outs are to a hand that is likely the nuts. 3-bet all-in and hope for the best, just like you would if your hole cards were a pair of eights.

[/ QUOTE ]micro stakes players probably stay micro stakes players because of micro stakes advice as crappy as this one.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
micro stakes players probably stay micro stakes players because of micro stakes advice as crappy as this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you do us the service of explaining the flaws in my thinking, or are you just gonna pop in and say "yoos is stoopid" without any further input? In the event that I'm wrong, it would seem that both OP and I could benefit from intelligent, well thought out advice. You response has failed to provide OP with any useful answer to his original question, and allows me to continue playing hands like these in a fashion that may be wrong.

[Pontus]

[ QUOTE ]
players probably stay micro stakes players because of micro stakes advice as crappy as this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well, what could thay both have?

I'd like to say that there is a great risk that BB has a flush draw since he called the flop. Else he has middle/low pair with a decent kicker or mid-pair and nothing. But that's just my analyse of the hand, it could be way off.

UTG raises you on the flop. Then what could he have?
QT, AJ-QJ, J9, 9x? If J9, he must be hoping that someone will hit something on the river and check-raise, and 9x... Because it's micro limit he is maybe scared for what the others might have or he just thinks that a bet wouldn't scare you so he's doing best in waiting for the river card to come.

But what about the river play and the hands I put them to?

Well, maybe they are scared by the aces. That takes away the AJ possibility from UTG, I guess. But he is in last possition and only checks. Then I guess he hasn't got QT either. Any of the 9-ers? No, then he would bet, I guess.
Then he has either KJ or QJ?
Ill actually go for the QJ since he did raise your bet on the flop and with QJ, he gets the straight draw too.

What about BB? The flush draw didn't hit so he would just check? But with what kind of flush draw? A-Qx of hearts? Scared that he's only second best? I'd say so. I'll go for the A-x of hearts.

So their hands according to me should be:
Hero: 6h, 7h (Daah!)
BB: Ah x-hearts
UTG: QJ.

Now I'we actually forgot the question since I'we been writing for a while and this is probably completely off since it's the third hand or something I try to find out what the opponents have. But still, now I'we written it so why not post it!?

[boycalledroy]

Problem with unraise pots is that you can NEVER know where you stand. Does a flopped straight hold up against a random hand, I'm going to hazard a guess at yes. So I reraise his raise on the flop. The ONLY hand you are scared off here is KQ, and if he has that, curse and rebuy!

If he has KQ we still have outs!

[holyfield5]

he has Qh 10h you better fold!!

id try to get AI on the flop also, you are OOP, and you might get a fold, also i feel the ignorant end straight has more power as outs that way, moreso than if it hits with you guys betting it out. you can eliminate draws to a better straight and higher flushes if you push the flop hard.

[alphatmw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
micro stakes players probably stay micro stakes players because of micro stakes advice as crappy as this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you do us the service of explaining the flaws in my thinking, or are you just gonna pop in and say "yoos is stoopid" without any further input? In the event that I'm wrong, it would seem that both OP and I could benefit from intelligent, well thought out advice. You response has failed to provide OP with any useful answer to his original question, and allows me to continue playing hands like these in a fashion that may be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
An OESFD is basically a made hand for all intents and purposes.

[/ QUOTE ]wow really? so made hands are ones that can expect to win 50% of the time on the flop? usually when you flop a set, straight, flush, or better, you want to be able to win more than just 50% of the time. a made hand possibly has the rest drawing near dead. his hand currently is about 99% to be the worst hand, at the moment. and you call that a "made hand". incredible.

[ QUOTE ]
You are greater than 50% to hit either the straight o flush by the river, and in this case two of your outs are to a hand that is likely the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]...which means he has a made hand? no. furthermore, a 10 would make a board of 89TJ and he would only be using his 7 for his straight. any 7 has him tied, any Q has him beat. this is very relevant.

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet all-in and hope for the best, just like you would if your hole cards were a pair of eights.

[/ QUOTE ]god i can't believe i'm actually analyzing this post, its so bad. pushing in here isn't terrible but doing it with the rationale of "hoping for the best" is completely stupid. give him a reason to do so(mention fold equity, semi-bluffing, ANYTHING). also, did you notice that pushing would mean raising about $44 into a $11 pot? did you notice that it was a huge overbet? did you consider reraising, but not pushing? why didn't you mention any of this?

at these stakes, people hate to fold so there is a HUGE case for smooth calling and getting it in with an ACTUAL made hand. this would depend on the read of the villain, another thing you also neglected to mention.

look dude, the advice you gave him (3 bet all in) wasn't horrible but you gave the crappiest rationale for doing so. basically, you gave terrible analysis but stumbled upon a decent answer (albeit not a great one), just because the difference in EV in pushing and smooth calling at these stakes is probably pretty marginal.

in response to OP's second question, if you're not drawing to the lower end of the straight, you probably have overs which makes your hand MUCH MUCH stronger, and in which case i would definitely advocate a reraise on the flop (but not an all in). as played, this raise really doesn't look like a bluff to me so it seems that the raiser is calling whatever you do. i don't like pushing because when he calls, you guarantee to be no better than ~50% and he could easily have a made straight, a bigger flush draw, or a set (which you're only ~40% against. i like the way you played it, and i only reraise in this position if you think you have enough fold equity (like, if you have been playing very tight so far and have reason to believe villain has noticed or if villain has shown a tendency to raise and let go of hands before, neither of these are likely at these stakes)

happy sean?

[alphatmw]

[ QUOTE ]
Problem with unraise pots is that you can NEVER know where you stand. Does a flopped straight hold up against a random hand, I'm going to hazard a guess at yes. So I reraise his raise on the flop. The ONLY hand you are scared off here is KQ, and if he has that, curse and rebuy!

If he has KQ we still have outs!

[/ QUOTE ]can i reapply my first post in this thread again for this reply? we're scared of KQ, O RLY?

seriously, im not kidding. the quality of micro stakes advice is appalling at times.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
happy Sean?

[/ QUOTE ]
Marginally.

[ QUOTE ]
seriously, im not kidding. the quality of micro stakes advice is appalling at times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your second response to this thread was much more useful than the first. I will be the first to admit that I'm nothing more than a micro-grinder and have no illusions to the effect that I'm God's Gift to Poker, therefore I'm willing to accept the fact that the advice I give, while the best to my current level of insight and ability, is quite likely inferior to that of more experienced players. The problem I had with your response was that it accomplished nothing more than pointing out that my response was less than optimal. If you had taken the time to make your first response as detailed as the second, you would have accomplished the following:

1) OP would have gotten better advice on how to play in this kind of situation.

2) I would have gotten better advice on how to play in this kind of situation.

3) You would have set an example for other respondents and I as to what a superior response would contain, and the rationale it would be based around.

I appreciate the responses and honest critique of the more experienced players who frequent this forum. That is why I spend time both reading and responding here. If you feel the quality of advice given in this forum is appalling, please do us the favor of setting a positive example. Simply posting a response to the effect of "your response is crap" does nothing beneficial to the quality of dialogue encountered among those of us who are working hard to become both better players and posters.

[Hoffma]

I posted a thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=9281389&amp; PHPSESSID=&amp;fpart=1#Post9281389) recently about this basic situation and got some really good feedback. I don't like shoving OESFD into two opponents. It's already a high variance play against one opponent, and I'm not adding to that variance by giving two people the chance to call my ridiculous overbet.

I think you took the right line. Against one opponent, a fairly strong argument can be made for pushing your OESFD. When called, you are a slight favorite against most hands and a dog against only QT, sets, and higher value hands suited in clubs. This is why fold equity is of utmost consideration when pushing flops like these. It's a coinflip most often when you're called, so beware the value of the idea that all OESFDs are worth being pushed on the flop. This idea is far too simplistic to apply to any real, developed strategy.

Once again, I like your line.