What sick, twisted god would want people to have faith? [Archive]

Prodigy54321

02-24-2007, 09:59 AM

I didn't title this post..."What sick, twisted god would want humans to have faith in him ? for a very specific reason...I wrote in the thread about the religious experience...

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what is a real shame if a god exists and does things like this and expects them to be taken as reason to believe in him...is that he lacks respect for humans in that he doesn't give us something that can be evaluated rationally and logically...he must know that thinking logically helps us to not come to false conclusions...it is not enough to say that it is because he wants us to have faith in him..there is no aim of faith, you cannot just use faith to believe in him, but not have faith in other incorrect conclusions, faith does not work that way.

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why do people consider faith as superior to reason?...the answer seems to be that I am generally wrong in saying this..people generally believe that reason is superior in nearly all applications....

except one (or few)...these being the ones concerning the god that they believe in...again, I do not say these being the ones concerning God . because this is misleading...not only do people refrain from using faith in regard to typical every day questions, but they also refrain from using faith in regard to all other religions or "faiths" as they would be called.

as I said in the response that I quoted, the belief that doing this is fine is absurd...

you cannot have faith in one thing, but not in another...what possible reason could there be for this?...having faith that the Christian god exists, but not having faith that there is an giant orange (or a teapot if you like) somewhere far away in outer space are EXACTLY the same...one just as resonable/unreasonable as the other

the difference is only one thing, and it is what has kept us from making such bizarre claims as orbitting teapots...evidence...I think we all must admit that although the evidence in support of the existence of a god or a specific god is extremely weak, there is certainly some evidence for these..more than that of the teapot that is...and that is what should bring people to their conclusion on this topic..

adding faith essentailly does NOTHING...faith MUST be equal for all things..leaving us with what we started with, just the evidence and a rational evaluation..

the danger here is that although it SHOULD add nothing, people do give it a net value on...well..whatever the hell they want..it will never make a person more likely to come to a correct conslusion, it will ALWAYS make a person more likely to come to an incorrect conclusion.

it does not make sense to put faith in the Christian god but not in Osiris or Zues...

selectively using faith is nothing more than a roll of the dice, and a crapshoot at that...

give a group of 100 people a choice between any 5 conclusions on any topic..allow them to ONLY use faith to come to the conclusion, and you should get an even split between the 5 options...that is the nature of faith..any actual deviation from an even split means that something other than faith is involved..

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as I wrote in the response that I quoted..if there is a god of the kind that we commonly think of...why in the world would he approve of the use of faith?...why would he consider it as superior to reason...to support the use of faith in typical day to day questions is extrememly malevolent...I cannot imagine something that could cause more harm than this..thankfully, most people don't believe that god would approve of using faith do decide whether or not we should go to war..although a frightening number of people probably do believe this to be true...

so most people believe that faith should only be used when dealing with the question of god...this of course would be bizarre for a god to support..where people could be brought to the conclusion that he exists and he should be worshipped by rational means, instead they are more likely to come to the false conclusion that he does not exist..simply because they use faith instead of or along with reason.

people seem to believe that faith has some inherently good quality that reason does not...and this, as I have said many times before, is the most dangerous ideology we know, because it allows people to support conclusions and actions that would otherwise be known to be harmful.

yukoncpa

02-24-2007, 10:25 AM

The New Testament makes a moral story out of the disciple Thomas, who wasn’t around when Jesus showed up ( after his death ) at the dwelling where his other disciples were and showed them the wounds in his hands. Because they saw the wounds in his hands, they believed. But doubting Thomas wasn’t there, and when told of Jesus’s return by his buddies, he too wanted to see the wounds before he would believe. ( John 20:19 to approx John 20:25 ). Well Jesus finally gave Thomas the proof he wanted, but then Jesus rebuked him for asking for the proof, telling Thomas, that you know me, so why would you doubt me? Blessed be those who don’t know me and have faith. ( I’m paraphrasing )

Well, my interpretation, is that if I walked and talked with Jesus and knew he was a God and then when my same buddy, the God, showed up, and I said, "hey - I don’t believe you are who you say you are, give me further proof." Well, I can see why Jesus would get pissed off. But this story is no reason for the rest of us who didn’t actually know Jesus to blindly believe in him.

Prodigy54321

02-24-2007, 11:39 AM

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The New Testament makes a moral story out of the disciple Thomas, who wasn’t around when Jesus showed up ( after his death ) at the dwelling where his other disciples were and showed them the wounds in his hands. Because they saw the wounds in his hands, they believed. But doubting Thomas wasn’t there, and when told of Jesus’s return by his buddies, he too wanted to see the wounds before he would believe. ( John 20:19 to approx John 20:25 ). Well Jesus finally gave Thomas the proof he wanted, but then Jesus rebuked him for asking for the proof, telling Thomas, that you know me, so why would you doubt me? Blessed be those who don’t know me and have faith. ( I’m paraphrasing )

Well, my interpretation, is that if I walked and talked with Jesus and knew he was a God and then when my same buddy, the God, showed up, and I said, "hey - I don’t believe you are who you say you are, give me further proof." Well, I can see why Jesus would get pissed off. But this story is no reason for the rest of us who didn’t actually know Jesus to blindly believe in him.

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I forgot to add something that is related to this...

faith in the sense of your post is not the type of faith I am referring to...faith in a person that for instance they are telling the truth about something is not what my post is about...faith in this sense is based on evidence that a person would not lie to you...

if a random person were to knock on your door telling you that they need help paying for the hospital bill of their sick grandmother...trusting them would probably be unwise.

if a friend of yours who has been confirmed to be pretty trustworthy in the past did the same thing...trusting them would probably be fine..

people who have rationally and logically come to the conclusion that God exists and that he "steers" their life and is trustworthy, and therefor trust him..that is, make decisions based on that belief..have not used any type of faith that I am referring to in my post..although it is often called faith.(unless they put an amount of trust in this principle that is not afforded by their degree of certainty..for instance believing that god told them to destroy the earth..you'd have to be more sure that all of your conclusions about god are true and that he is demanding this than any conclusion I think anyone has been brought to on the earth thus far)

Phil153

02-25-2007, 08:16 AM

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as I wrote in the response that I quoted..if there is a god of the kind that we commonly think of...why in the world would he approve of the use of faith?...why would he consider it as superior to reason...to support the use of faith in typical day to day questions is extrememly malevolent...I cannot imagine something that could cause more harm than this

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I think the faith a God (if it existed) would desire is:

- Unwavering belief that there exists a power greater than yourself (lack of narcissism)
- Unwavering belief in the goodness and righteousness of that power

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that idea, provided God actually exists. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Of course, turning that general faith towards any particular book, interpretation, religious organization, historical figure, or epistemic system makes you a pitiful clown. And requiring it would make God a rather odd creature.

tame_deuces

02-25-2007, 08:33 AM

Do you think religious people are widely different in their cognitive approach to life than others?

I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

So within us most likely lies a mechanism for accepting cultural norms and teachings as truths. Evolutionary speaking it would seem the perfect adapative mechanism for a social creature like humans.

For instance, let's assume a 45 degrees celsius temperature. Almost every human in a civilized country would wear clothing when going out to shop, even in that extreme heat. Most would assume a person which did not do this to be either crazy or of poor morals (pending on viewpoint). That not wearing clothes is either very embarassing or poor morals is a truth which culture has given us.

Most would never reflect on it, and even if we did, we'd still have a very hard time shaking the 'truth' from our mind.

kurto

02-25-2007, 11:51 AM

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Do you think religious people are widely different in their cognitive approach to life than others?

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Certainly. At least in certain respects. Take that guy sitnhit... he left because people challenged his beliefs. Many religious have no interest in challenging their beliefs which dictate much of how they think and act. They PICK a set of beliefs and then stick their head in the sand. They exercise cognitive dissonance on regular basis. I don't think its fair to say all people approach life this way.

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. Most western children are led to a belief in Santa Claus. That doesn't mean there's anything inherent in Humans about it.

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So within us most likely lies a mechanism for accepting cultural norms and teachings as truths. Evolutionary speaking it would seem the perfect adapative mechanism for a social creature like humans.

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Well, certainly I agree here. That is our minds have developed the ability to learn. The problem with religion is it teaches people to STOP learning so far as anything contradicts the religion. That is a perfectly great evolutionary FOR RELIGION, but not for those who follow it.

Re: Clothes- I think is a good example of the BAD parts of learning. If its extremely hot out, wearing clothes is not necessarily good. In NYC during the middle of a heatwave, you'll see Hasidic Jews wearing long wool coats. Certainly it cannot be healthy.

"Less civilized" people without restrictive cultural norms are likely to dress more appropriately for conditions. It takes a religious cognitive approach to life to have people wearing cloths that are detrimental to one's health.

On an interesting sidenote- front page of today's yahoo news is that Iran is cracking down on women dressing too casually. Thank God for religion and its dress codes. Those women were endangering themselves by not dressing appropriately. Thanks religion for taking such a 'cognitive' approach to life.

dknightx

02-25-2007, 01:33 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

Prodigy54321

02-25-2007, 02:26 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

dknightx

02-25-2007, 06:42 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children." hope you can see the difference. As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

tame_deuces

02-25-2007, 06:57 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. Most western children are led to a belief in Santa Claus. That doesn't mean there's anything inherent in Humans about it.

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My only point was that learning a religion is no different than learning any other culturally accepted 'truth'. As an adaptive social mechanism which makes perfect sense for humans to possess.

kurto

02-25-2007, 07:51 PM

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I believe most of us on this forum were raised in religous households. We're well aware of the process.

I can also back it with documentaries like what's on HBO now (I believe its called Friends of Jesus) where 6 year old kids are taught to sign songs about how evolution is wrong and dinosaurs are in the Bible.

Why do you assume my experience is shallow? (rhetorical question... you're angry because people are talking about your irrational beliefs. compared to your beliefs, all of our experiences and thoughts must be shallow.)

kurto

02-25-2007, 07:56 PM

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children."

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Not completely different. You just don't like how its written. But it is no less honest.

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As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

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What in the world is making you qualify this? I used to be a Christian. Are you at all surprised to learn that my parents were Christian? Even more bizarre, THEIR parents were Christian too!

I have several good friends who are Jewish. Oddly enough, there parents AND grandparents.... ARE ALL JEWISH!?!?!?

I can count on one hand the number of people I know who are a different religion then there parents of all the people I met in my 30+ years.

Prodigy54321

02-25-2007, 08:01 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children." hope you can see the difference. As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

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if we are simply talking about being faithful then..not necessarily about a god or gods..but just faith in general...

I think that children certainly are "brainwashed" into believing that faith is a virtue..that there is nothing wrong with believing something not only in lack of evidence, but despite evidence...

this may not be so true with regards to everyday life, but with regards to questions about god, etc...it is certainly true... (EDIT: to add that I think that it does steps a good deal into everyday life as well...which is terrible)

would children naturally develop thees tendencies?..I don't think they would if it weren't for the influence of their parents and community...in the age that we live in, it is apparent that looking at evidence and coming to rational conclusions is the way that we come to truth...

I want to add that I understand that children must "have faith" because of their situation as vulnerable people..but I think it is only the "brainwashing" of children that makes them continue to look at faith as a virtue when they grow up and are able to operate rationally.

*I also can't seem to find any statistics..I would guess that you are right about muslim vs christian %s as well.

EDIT: note that by "brainwashing" I do not mean it in the typical extreme sense.

dknightx

02-25-2007, 08:09 PM

1. you were all raised in a christian household, and you are no longer christian? doesn't that DISPROVE your point?

2. shallow - "having little depth", meaning you are basing your opinions on your own (and others) experience.

3. and yes, it is completely different. Saying "Most Faithful are brainwashed into as children" is completely different than saying "majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents". im sorry that you cant seem to grasp the difference between the two statements.

4. nice job using ancedotal evidence. HBO Documentary = ALL OF CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLDS IN THE WORLD!!! oh man, you know people that fall under this category! THE WHOLE WORLD MUST ACT IN THE SAME WAY!! maybe you should meet more people, possibly in places outside of NA and europe? like i said, i'd like to see stats the stats you are using to back up your claims. oh yeah, heres a point of reference, 90% of the adults at my church are first generation christians. Less than 25% of the youth have christian parents, and most of those kids did NOT grow up in christian households (parents became christians after/before they were saved). So like i said, i'd like to see what you are using to back up your claim. If its personal experience and HBO Documentaries, they why can't i do the same?

5. i'm not sure what you are so upset about. I agreed with his statement saying that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", and added that I believe that it is more common with muslims than christians. Do you have a particular problem with that statement? Maybe you read my reply sarcastically, not sure why you were led to do that.

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 08:11 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children." hope you can see the difference. As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

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if we are simply talking about being faithful then..not necessarily about a god or gods..but just faith in general...

I think that children certainly are "brainwashed" into believing that faith is a virtue..that there is nothing wrong with believing something not only in lack of evidence, but despite evidence...

this may not be so true with regards to everyday life, but with regards to questions about god, etc...it is certainly true...

would children naturally develop thees tendencies?..I don't think they would if it weren't for the influence of their parents and community...in the age that we live in, it is apparent that looking at evidence and coming to rational conclusions is the way that we come to truth...

I want to add that I understand that children must "have faith" because of their situation as vulnerable people..but I think it is only the "brainwashing" of children that makes them continue to look at faith as a virtue when they grow up and are able to operate rationally.

*I also can't seem to find any statistics..I would guess that you are right about muslim vs christian %s as well.

EDIT: note that by "brainwashing" I do not mean it in the typical extreme sense.

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And why is 'faith is a virtue' only applicable with regards to religious ideas? Because its the only place left for it. You can't argue that faith is a virtue (at least not with a straight face) in any other context, because the answers are there for you. A little kid has faith he can jump off the house and fly...this isn't virtuous. So, the faithful beat a hasty retreat to safer ground, a place where they are certain (but not necessarily correct) that their faith will never be challenged.

Which is fine, as long as it stays there. But of course, this sheltering of the false idea that faith is a virtue has a way of seeping into everyday life. We see it all the time in anti-intellectual attitudes. Reason, logic, evidence, support, all of these words are used with derision. FAITH, and its lesser cousins, "I just know" and "It feels right to me" become persuasive arguments in all subjects, to the detriment of progress.

dknightx

02-25-2007, 08:14 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children." hope you can see the difference. As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

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if we are simply talking about being faithful then..not necessarily about a god or gods..but just faith in general...

I think that children certainly are "brainwashed" into believing that faith is a virtue..that there is nothing wrong with believing something not only in lack of evidence, but despite evidence...

this may not be so true with regards to everyday life, but with regards to questions about god, etc...it is certainly true... (EDIT: to add that I think that it does steps a good deal into everyday life as well...which is terrible)

would children naturally develop thees tendencies?..I don't think they would if it weren't for the influence of their parents and community...in the age that we live in, it is apparent that looking at evidence and coming to rational conclusions is the way that we come to truth...

I want to add that I understand that children must "have faith" because of their situation as vulnerable people..but I think it is only the "brainwashing" of children that makes them continue to look at faith as a virtue when they grow up and are able to operate rationally.

*I also can't seem to find any statistics..I would guess that you are right about muslim vs christian %s as well.

EDIT: note that by "brainwashing" I do not mean it in the typical extreme sense.

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thanks for the civil reply. Anyways, my point is that i DO AGREE WITH YOU in that A LOT of children that are raised in christian households are (in a sense) brainwashed/trained to believe something that they would not have believed on their own. I think this is wrong, and will let my children make their own decisions (and will support it 100% (yes, even homosexuality))

what i was trying to get across is that a large percentage of the growth in the christian church today is NOT from people raised in christian families (in fact, thats probably where the largest DECREASE in christian population is coming from), but from people who are 1st generation christians. I could use my personal experience (and the experience of people i know) to back up my claim, but i'd rather look at the statistics. It doesn't look like there are any available, however. I'll try to do some more searching monday at work. I really don't mind being proven wrong, but i'd rather there be some sort of stats shown before i make a decision (not some HBO documentary or JESUS CAMP)

dknightx

02-25-2007, 08:16 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

[/ QUOTE ]

are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children." hope you can see the difference. As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

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if we are simply talking about being faithful then..not necessarily about a god or gods..but just faith in general...

I think that children certainly are "brainwashed" into believing that faith is a virtue..that there is nothing wrong with believing something not only in lack of evidence, but despite evidence...

this may not be so true with regards to everyday life, but with regards to questions about god, etc...it is certainly true...

would children naturally develop thees tendencies?..I don't think they would if it weren't for the influence of their parents and community...in the age that we live in, it is apparent that looking at evidence and coming to rational conclusions is the way that we come to truth...

I want to add that I understand that children must "have faith" because of their situation as vulnerable people..but I think it is only the "brainwashing" of children that makes them continue to look at faith as a virtue when they grow up and are able to operate rationally.

*I also can't seem to find any statistics..I would guess that you are right about muslim vs christian %s as well.

EDIT: note that by "brainwashing" I do not mean it in the typical extreme sense.

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And why is 'faith is a virtue' only applicable with regards to religious ideas? Because its the only place left for it. You can't argue that faith is a virtue (at least not with a straight face) in any other context, because the answers are there for you. A little kid has faith he can jump off the house and fly...this isn't virtuous. So, the faithful beat a hasty retreat to safer ground, a place where they are certain (but not necessarily correct) that their faith will never be challenged.

Which is fine, as long as it stays there. But of course, this sheltering of the false idea that faith is a virtue has a way of seeping into everyday life. We see it all the time in anti-intellectual attitudes. Reason, logic, evidence, support, all of these words are used with derision. FAITH, and its lesser cousins, "I just know" and "It feels right to me" become persuasive arguments in all subjects, to the detriment of progress.

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what about having faith that a person will or will not do something? Even if they've failed your 100 times in the past, if you believe (for whatever reason) that this time they won't do it, is that not faith? maybe my definition of faith is different than what you are describing.

ShakeZula06

02-25-2007, 08:18 PM

An old friend I knew in highschool (we both now go to different colleges) and I got into a discussion about Religion. This wasn't really a debate, rather he was looking at religion a lot and trying to decide, and we were discussing some things about it. One excerpt that pertains to the Op that I sent to him:
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The fact is that according to the bible you can only get into heaven if you accept Jesus as your savior. Being that it's impossible on rational grounds to actually conclude that you know (or even think it's likely that)Jesus died for your sins it makes it kind of hard. I mean if there is a Christian God that truly does mandate this, then it surely isn't a just God. What type of God would say that you only get salvation if you believe he exists even when there's a complete lack of evidence he exists?

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When I came to this board I was a Christian. This was mostly because my parents and extended family were mostly Christian and partly just appeal to force (what if he does exist, then I could spend eternity in hell for not believing in him). Luckily, unlike a lot of Christians I'm always looking to question my positions and beliefs and the rationality of this board helped me in that regard. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 08:52 PM

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I sure don't, so the thinking process that leads to faith is probably inherent in all human beings.

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Oh come on. Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children. ....

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are you going to provide something to back up that claim or just assume that it is true based on your own personal, shallow, and limited experience?

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I don't know of the specific numbers, but I'm sure that an overwhelming majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents (If you doubt this, I can try to find some statistics)..let's take the children of christians and the children of muslims...

is this just a coincidence?..of course not....children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims, not because they have each come to their own independent conclusion and there is just a vary strange coincidence of how it turned out..it is because their beliefs are very largely determined, not by evidence, not by independent evaluation, but by what is "fed" to them by their parents (and community to a lesser degree).

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what you just wrote is completely different than "Most 'faithful' are brainwashed into as children." hope you can see the difference. As for your point that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", that is probably more true with muslims (because of environment) than it is with Christians. I would really like to see some statistics if they are available though (can't seem to find anything).

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if we are simply talking about being faithful then..not necessarily about a god or gods..but just faith in general...

I think that children certainly are "brainwashed" into believing that faith is a virtue..that there is nothing wrong with believing something not only in lack of evidence, but despite evidence...

this may not be so true with regards to everyday life, but with regards to questions about god, etc...it is certainly true...

would children naturally develop thees tendencies?..I don't think they would if it weren't for the influence of their parents and community...in the age that we live in, it is apparent that looking at evidence and coming to rational conclusions is the way that we come to truth...

I want to add that I understand that children must "have faith" because of their situation as vulnerable people..but I think it is only the "brainwashing" of children that makes them continue to look at faith as a virtue when they grow up and are able to operate rationally.

*I also can't seem to find any statistics..I would guess that you are right about muslim vs christian %s as well.

EDIT: note that by "brainwashing" I do not mean it in the typical extreme sense.

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And why is 'faith is a virtue' only applicable with regards to religious ideas? Because its the only place left for it. You can't argue that faith is a virtue (at least not with a straight face) in any other context, because the answers are there for you. A little kid has faith he can jump off the house and fly...this isn't virtuous. So, the faithful beat a hasty retreat to safer ground, a place where they are certain (but not necessarily correct) that their faith will never be challenged.

Which is fine, as long as it stays there. But of course, this sheltering of the false idea that faith is a virtue has a way of seeping into everyday life. We see it all the time in anti-intellectual attitudes. Reason, logic, evidence, support, all of these words are used with derision. FAITH, and its lesser cousins, "I just know" and "It feels right to me" become persuasive arguments in all subjects, to the detriment of progress.

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what about having faith that a person will or will not do something? Even if they've failed your 100 times in the past, if you believe (for whatever reason) that this time they won't do it, is that not faith? maybe my definition of faith is different than what you are describing.

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You can count that, if you want. And guess what? Most people will call you stupid and naive. You are going to get burned if you continue to approach people like that.

Actually, this is a perfect example of my point. I agree that that IS faith, and its a type of faith that is more or less derided and rejected by most people, even most theists. The reason its so easy to dismiss? All we have to do is wait, and watch that person let you down again. The answers are readily available.

ShakeZula06

02-25-2007, 09:05 PM

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what about having faith that a person will or will not do something? Even if they've failed your 100 times in the past, if you believe (for whatever reason) that this time they won't do it, is that not faith? maybe my definition of faith is different than what you are describing.

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It's a matter of degree. You certainly have reason to belive the guy is going to fail based on the fact that he's failed 100 times. If you want to say you know he'd going to fail, well that's fallacious, but to say he's most likely going to fail is just reasoning. What reasons would you have to believe god exists?

kurto

02-26-2007, 12:41 PM

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1. you were all raised in a christian household, and you are no longer christian? doesn't that DISPROVE your point?

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Of course not. Where did I ever imply that people cannot overcome their indoctrination? And it was working. I was a Christian believer until I was better educated and really examined my beliefs and my religion.

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2. shallow - "having little depth", meaning you are basing your opinions on your own (and others) experience.

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Well, if you consider 'atypical' personal experience as well as the observations of hundreds of Christian families, the representation of Christianity throughout our popular culture, the study of our religion in my own church as well as in college, a few books and documentaries shallow, then fine. Though your calling it thus in no way rebuts anything I've posted.

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3. and yes, it is completely different. Saying "Most Faithful are brainwashed into as children" is completely different than saying "majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents". im sorry that you cant seem to grasp the difference between the two statements.

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Why don't you try to articulate the difference. Most children are fed their religion as children before the have the intellectual capacity to understand what they're being taught. You're not happy with the wordchoice, but that doesn't mean its incorrect.

Let's use this definition so there's no confusion:
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any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion

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When little 6 year olds are taught to sing songs about how the earth is 6000 years old, evolution is the work of satan, etc. This is brainwashing.

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4. nice job using ancedotal evidence. HBO Documentary = ALL OF CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLDS IN THE WORLD!!!

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Hmmmm. That's weird. Nowhere did I say the doc represented all Christians. You're dishonesty makes baby jesus cry.

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like i said, i'd like to see stats the stats you are using to back up your claims. oh yeah, heres a point of reference, 90% of the adults at my church are first generation christians.

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Wow. Your church was be representative of the whole world then. I stand corrected. lol You're funny.

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If its personal experience and HBO Documentaries, they why can't i do the same?

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I'm comfortable with people expressing their experiences. I'd be surprised if you honestly think your experience is representative. Would you like to wager that if we did a poll of religious Christians on this forum, that the majority of them would come from a Christian background?

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i'm not sure what you are so upset about. I agreed with his statement saying that "children of christians become christians and children of muslims become muslims", and added that I believe that it is more common with muslims than christians. Do you have a particular problem with that statement?

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I'm not upset. There's nothing upsetting to me in this forum. I just think thought it bizarre that you made such an odd statement. What experience do you have with Muslims to make such a statement? You'd already admitted you couldn't find any statistics. So I was just curious what experiences (even anecdotal) you could have had to make a generalization about all Muslims and how they compare to Christians? (see... I was raised as a Christian in a Christian country... I've lived in multiple parts of the country, belonged and participated in several churches, have known hundreds of Christian families and have a lifetime of observing our Christian culture. I feel qualified to make some observations about Christianity. But I've only known half a dozen muslims. Because of this I wouldn't compare Muslim culture or upbringing to Christians. It surprises me that you can. That's all.

kurto

02-26-2007, 12:50 PM

if you're interested in sharing... I'm curious to hear about your conversion if you're interested in sharing.

You were a nonbeliever and then became a Christian? How old were you when you changed? And what happened? Did you go to a church on a whim? Or were invited by local outreach?

Just curious. I only know 2 adults who kind of changed their faith in that direction. (actually, they were both raised as Christians, kind of left the church and were later born again. Though neither says they ever completely stopped believing. I should say I've never met any adult who was 100% a non-believer who because a believer.)

Duke

02-26-2007, 01:11 PM

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if you're interested in sharing... I'm curious to hear about your conversion if you're interested in sharing.

You were a nonbeliever and then became a Christian? How old were you when you changed? And what happened? Did you go to a church on a whim? Or were invited by local outreach?

Just curious. I only know 2 adults who kind of changed their faith in that direction. (actually, they were both raised as Christians, kind of left the church and were later born again. Though neither says they ever completely stopped believing. I should say I've never met any adult who was 100% a non-believer who because a believer.)

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This strikes me as odd, as I haven't yet met anyone who went from no belief to any religious views either. It seems like there should be a lot of people going that way, as the world seems to be pretty anti-intellectual. When people don't value reason or proof, which they definitely seem to be demonstrating on the whole, it seems that they'd be open to what belief offers.

Why aren't there many?

dknightx

02-26-2007, 01:51 PM

thanks for the replies, maybe you didn't understand my point. First, let me firmly state why these two statements are different:

"Most Faithful are brainwashed into as children"
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"majority of children grow up to hold the same faith as their parents".

The first concludes that MOST faithful (as in a LARGE majority of the faithful christian population), are brainwashed as children (i have no problem with the usage of the word brainwashed here, just MOST faithful). The second statement merely concludes that there is some strong correlation between growing up in a religious home and ending up being in that same religion. Like I stated in my previous post, I disagree with the first statement because the driving force behind christian growth is 1st generation christians (mostly outside of the USA/Canada/Some of Europe though, which is probably why you don't experience this as much first hand). Anyways, i was merely trying to point out that your personal experience (or mine) does not speak for the whole.

So let me make one final statement about this point. I do believe a lot of "brainwashing" occurs in the christian church towards children, and I personally am against this kind of teaching. I believe that faith quote someone posted a while back explains why. A lot of children who "grow up" in the church end up leaving the church when they are older (either college or post college). Why is this? Well mostly because their faith is not their own. The faith that they have is from their parents, friends, environment, etc. They didn't think anything through, they never read much of the bible themselves, they only rely on information that they have been force fed. I don't think this is the correct approach, and personally i find things like Jesus Camp, etc to be quite disturbing. So long story short, i dont think children should be making decisions on religion, and parents should allow their kids to make their own decisions (of course i WANT my kids to be christian, but i'll let them make their own decision).

oh yeah, maybe i should add that i'm asian.

revots33

02-26-2007, 02:36 PM

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So long story short, i dont think children should be making decisions on religion, and parents should allow their kids to make their own decisions (of course i WANT my kids to be christian, but i'll let them make their own decision).

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So will you take your children to a mosque, a synagogue, A Mormon temple, and all the other varieties of religious services every week? Or will you do what most parents do, and just take them along with you to your church?

Maybe you take issue with the word "brainwashing" when it's something as relatively benign as bringing your children with you to your church. But how exactly do you think most children end up following their parents' religion? It is by being exposed to it, and it's teachings, at the most impressionable age.

It may not be the theatrics of Jesus Camp, but it is indoctrination all the same. I sat in Catholic Church every Sunday and heard about hell and the devil and original sin and you can bet that stuff stayed with me well into adulthood. My parents weren't trying to brainwash me, but it happened just the same.

dknightx

02-26-2007, 02:42 PM

i won't take them anywhere unless they want to go. when they are really young ill probably have to bring them to church, but the children's program at my church doesn't really teach too much, its more like a day care. teaching doesn't really begin until middle school, and they do not attend the "adult" congregation until they are in college, also i believe you can not get baptized until you are in high school. but once my kids are old enough to stay at home by themselves, then they can do whatever they want.

Duke

02-26-2007, 02:59 PM

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i won't take them anywhere unless they want to go. when they are really young ill probably have to bring them to church, but the children's program at my church doesn't really teach too much, its more like a day care. teaching doesn't really begin until middle school, and they do not attend the "adult" congregation until they are in college, also i believe you can not get baptized until you are in high school. but once my kids are old enough to stay at home by themselves, then they can do whatever they want.

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I'd say that being too young to stay home alone coincides completely with being extremely impressionable. At the very least it will be instilling in them the idea that your church has some sort of legitimacy that the other ones they didn't go to (for other religions) do not.

vhawk01

02-26-2007, 04:23 PM

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i won't take them anywhere unless they want to go. when they are really young ill probably have to bring them to church, but the children's program at my church doesn't really teach too much, its more like a day care. teaching doesn't really begin until middle school, and they do not attend the "adult" congregation until they are in college, also i believe you can not get baptized until you are in high school. but once my kids are old enough to stay at home by themselves, then they can do whatever they want.

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I'd say that being too young to stay home alone coincides completely with being extremely impressionable. At the very least it will be instilling in them the idea that your church has some sort of legitimacy that the other ones they didn't go to (for other religions) do not.

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Fine, but I think you are doing a disservice by criticizing dknight for this effort. He is trying to do exactly what we all think parents should be doing, which is holding off on the religion until the kids are less impressionable and better able to make their own decisions. Unfortunately, he still has to deal with practical realities like "A little baby can't just sit at home by himself and make himself a pot pie." So, he is going to bring his kid to church when he is really young, leave him at daycare, go to service, and come home.

FWIW, dknight, I think that is far more than a 'good-faith' effort at giving your kid a fair chance. Its how I hope to raise my kids, since my gf is reasonably devout Catholic.

Duke

02-26-2007, 04:38 PM

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i won't take them anywhere unless they want to go. when they are really young ill probably have to bring them to church, but the children's program at my church doesn't really teach too much, its more like a day care. teaching doesn't really begin until middle school, and they do not attend the "adult" congregation until they are in college, also i believe you can not get baptized until you are in high school. but once my kids are old enough to stay at home by themselves, then they can do whatever they want.

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I'd say that being too young to stay home alone coincides completely with being extremely impressionable. At the very least it will be instilling in them the idea that your church has some sort of legitimacy that the other ones they didn't go to (for other religions) do not.

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Fine, but I think you are doing a disservice by criticizing dknight for this effort. He is trying to do exactly what we all think parents should be doing, which is holding off on the religion until the kids are less impressionable and better able to make their own decisions. Unfortunately, he still has to deal with practical realities like "A little baby can't just sit at home by himself and make himself a pot pie." So, he is going to bring his kid to church when he is really young, leave him at daycare, go to service, and come home.

FWIW, dknight, I think that is far more than a 'good-faith' effort at giving your kid a fair chance. Its how I hope to raise my kids, since my gf is reasonably devout Catholic.

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I was mainly making the point that it's virtually impossible for parents to not have their religion rub off on their kids, no matter how hard they try. His effort would indeed be a good thing.

kurto

02-26-2007, 05:23 PM

I think, though, that its very difficult for any parent to not raise their child in their religion.

If I were a Christian, I would believe that its my duty to my child AND to God to raise my kid as a Christian. I'm pretty certain if I had the drive to I could find some quotes in Deuteronomy that support as much. (I could be off on the chapter since I'm no longer practicing but I'm fairly certain the Bible says as much)

A child looks to their parents. I don't see how dnight can not legitimize his/her (I'll say his from here on out since I don't know any better) beliefs for his children as any of us would?

Dnight? Are you not going to baptize your child? Teach them about Christmas and its Christian story? Take your child to church? Is there no sunday school at your church? Are you going to have them pray? Are you going to pray in front of them? If so, aren't you going to have to tell them about your belief in God, etc.?

I think we ALL say we'd like to raise our kids to choose on their own. I'm just not certain we really have the ability to do as much. I know that my brother (who, granted, is an over-the-top born again) has said that it is HIS DUTY to try to save my soul... there is NO doubt that he would't feel the same way about his children.

Don't most religions teach that its a parents duty to raise their children in their faith?

txag007

02-26-2007, 05:30 PM

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If I were a Christian, I would believe that its my duty to my child AND to God to raise my kid as a Christian. I'm pretty certain if I had the drive to I could find some quotes in Deuteronomy that support as much. (I could be off on the chapter since I'm no longer practicing but I'm fairly certain the Bible says as much)

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Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them. Deuteronomy 4:9

dknightx

02-26-2007, 05:36 PM

(yes i am a guy). Anyways, for raising children, of COURSE they will be exposed to christianity, and im not sure what i can do about that. Basically my point is that i do not want my child to be a christian merely because that is what i want, or what i have taught them. I want it to be a choice they make on their own. As I stated earlier, or church does not baptize kids (i think thats more of a catholic thing to baptize babies), and you must be at least in high school before you can get baptized. As for sunday school, up until 5th grade, its mostly a day care where they will sing some songs and do some arts and crafts. Of course those are all "christian" related like god loves you, love your neighbor, sharing with others, being humble, etc, etc, but nothing like some of the stuff i've been hearing (like YOULL BURN IN HELL IF YOU DONT REPENT, etc, etc). Once they reach middle school, they start doing bible studies, but even the middle school program is fairly basic (and mostly talks about basic truths, etc). The youth do not move into the adult sunday school/congregation (we have a youth and adult congregation on sunday) until they are in college. So bottom line, my children will be raised in a christian home, and be exposed to christianity, but the decision to be christian will be their own, and I will constantly remind them that they have that freedom, and that they have the freedom to explore other religions. I think it says a lot about your faith if you reach it "on your own", especially after spending some time exploring.

Wubbie075

02-26-2007, 05:40 PM

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heres a point of reference, 90% of the adults at my church are first generation christians. Less than 25% of the youth have christian parents, and most of those kids did NOT grow up in christian households (parents became christians after/before they were saved)

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I am still confused by this. 90% of your church grew up in a completely non-religious household and "became" christians? How many generations back did this atheism go? Or, were they jewish? Muslim? Buddhist? I find this extremely difficult to believe.

Somehow I think it is more likely a situation where the families had a christian background, but were later "born again" and realized how un-christian they "really" were and don't consider themselves christians for that earlier portion of their lives. If this is not the case I'd love to hear about it. Please explain in more detail.

txag007

02-26-2007, 06:10 PM

The decision to become a Christian (by accepting Christ) is something everyone must do on their own, but we have a responsibility as Christians to transfer our faith to our children and our children's children (as per Deuteronomy 4:9).

dknightx

02-26-2007, 06:19 PM

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heres a point of reference, 90% of the adults at my church are first generation christians. Less than 25% of the youth have christian parents, and most of those kids did NOT grow up in christian households (parents became christians after/before they were saved)

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I am still confused by this. 90% of your church grew up in a completely non-religious household and "became" christians? How many generations back did this atheism go? Or, were they jewish? Muslim? Buddhist? I find this extremely difficult to believe.

Somehow I think it is more likely a situation where the families had a christian background, but were later "born again" and realized how un-christian they "really" were and don't consider themselves christians for that earlier portion of their lives. If this is not the case I'd love to hear about it. Please explain in more detail.

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you must have missed the part where i said i was asian (chinese if that answers some of your questions)

dknightx

02-26-2007, 06:20 PM

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The decision to become a Christian (by accepting Christ) is something everyone must do on their own, but we have a responsibility as Christians to transfer our faith to our children and our children's children (as per Deuteronomy 4:9).

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i will do my role as a parent to share my faith with my child as well as expose them to christianity, that is all.

bunny

02-26-2007, 06:24 PM

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if you're interested in sharing... I'm curious to hear about your conversion if you're interested in sharing.

You were a nonbeliever and then became a Christian? How old were you when you changed? And what happened? Did you go to a church on a whim? Or were invited by local outreach?

Just curious. I only know 2 adults who kind of changed their faith in that direction. (actually, they were both raised as Christians, kind of left the church and were later born again. Though neither says they ever completely stopped believing. I should say I've never met any adult who was 100% a non-believer who because a believer.)

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I dont know if you intended to include "remained so until they died" but I was a 100% non-believer who became a believer for about ten years. Although I now again believe there isnt a God, it was a very strong belief while it lasted. (My immediate and extended family have been atheists for 2 generations at least, my parents/aunts/uncles/etc all passionately and vocally so).

kurto

02-26-2007, 06:38 PM

lol

I have to admit I didn't count people on this forum. I apologize, Bunny for not counting you in my headcount.

You, sir, are my sole example of a person raised in a family of atheists who converted (if only temporarily).

bunny

02-26-2007, 06:48 PM

I think it must be happening more broadly in Australia (though I dont have any anecdotal evidence) since the generation before mine were largely atheist, yet recently there have been some churches with a sudden resurgence of members (mainly young families, I believe).

I think these new converts were probably brought up atheistically (though perhaps there was christian lip-service). In the city where I live, the bulk of the increase is in the poorer suburbs who have been suffering from economic "reform" over the last 20 years or so - perhaps it is hope that is driving their conversion.

kurto

02-26-2007, 06:53 PM

I have to admit I don't understand the significance of you being Chinese? Perhap I should ask for more clarification... Chinese American? Is your church primarily non-Americans?

Though I cannot back up anything with stats, I don't think the majority of Christians (at least in the West) are adult converts.

On another note- Just wanted to say that I respect any attempts to let our children make decisions about such profound decisions on their own when they get older. I certainly think that someone making an informed decision to follow a certain path is more meaningful then choosing a path you've been raised to follow since you were a child.

Personally, I just wonder if its humanly possible. I am an atheist and have a child on the way. I don't see how I can be honest with my child about my beliefs and raise them completely neutral about the concept of God. Nor, if I was a believer, would I find it possible for me to not do everything I could to teach my child my beliefs.

I intend to raise my child to be inquisitive and question things. If my child does this and somehow becomes religous, I imagine I'll grin and bear it. But the child certainly will have come acoross the notion of deep skepticism towards religion. I'm willing to bet there's a greater liklihood that my child will be atheist AND I'm willing to bet if I were religious there is a greater likelihood that my child would also grow to share my religion then not. (Though I'm betting the likelihood of retaining a families religion is also dependent on geography. That is... if you're raised in the Bible Belt you are probably more likely to remain religious then if you're raised in NYC. This is only based on personal observation.)

dknightx

02-26-2007, 07:18 PM

i guess the chinese thing was a bit ambiguous. My church is probably 98% chinese. The adults are mostly immigrants from taiwan (and the rest from china), and accepted christianity either in asia when they were adults, or after moving to the US (for college or work) ... previously either buddhist or atheist (mostly atheist though). i only know a handful of adults who grew up in a christian household (or were converted as youth). The rest of them converted their parents AFTER they became christian.

As for the youth, the children of these adults mostly attend church, but only about 30% of the eligible (age wise) youth are actually baptized ... i would say a good percentage of them did not start going to church until middle school or high school. Personally my parents are not christian, and i grew up in a non-christian household.

revots33

02-26-2007, 07:23 PM

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FWIW, dknight, I think that is far more than a 'good-faith' effort at giving your kid a fair chance. Its how I hope to raise my kids, since my gf is reasonably devout Catholic.

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I agree it is commendable but dknight's attitude certainly isn't the norm. Most Christians expect their children to become Christian, (and Muslims expect their children to become Muslim, etc.) They send them to Sunday school, bible study, etc. with the express intent of passing on their faith to their children.

Prodigy54321

02-26-2007, 07:59 PM

dknightx,

I appreciate your attitude towards raising your children..I believe that trying to minimize your own influence on them wrt beliefs of this nature and allowing them to come to their own conclusion is best..

I do, however, think that doing this, as a christian, implies doubt...

as txag pointed out, it is pretty clear that christians are supposed to instill their beliefs in their children..

so is it that you don't necesarily believe those passages to be indicative of God's will...or is it that you have at least some doubt that your beliefs are true? or neither?

Duke

02-26-2007, 10:06 PM

dknightx

02-26-2007, 11:38 PM

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dknightx,

I appreciate your attitude towards raising your children..I believe that trying to minimize your own influence on them wrt beliefs of this nature and allowing them to come to their own conclusion is best..

I do, however, think that doing this, as a christian, implies doubt...

as txag pointed out, it is pretty clear that christians are supposed to instill their beliefs in their children..

so is it that you don't necesarily believe those passages to be indicative of God's will...or is it that you have at least some doubt that your beliefs are true? or neither?

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of course i believe that its god's desire for my children to be christian. I mean, i WANT that myself! Basically my point is that, if its not a faith that they develop through their own personal relationship with god, then it is a useless faith. God doesn't want drones who are programmed to believe him, he wants true followers. I would rather my children were "hot or cold" then merely "lukuwarm". Let there be no doubt, i WILL share my faith with my children (and pray for them, etc), but at the same time, i WILL teach them that they must experience God themselves, and not rely on MY experience to determine what to believe. God gave man free will, and without free will, faith is useless.