Why are some people not Christian? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

iggymcfly

02-24-2007, 01:10 AM

Since you put so little effort into your argument, I'll just refute your points instead of actively proving you wrong.

1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

2. Why does there have to be a human-like being to make the earth. Obviously, something somewhere wasn't created by an outside force. You think God wasn't created by an outside force, I think the earth wasn't. What's the difference. Well except that we actually know the earth was created and there's no evidence whatsoever of a god, especially a Christian one.

3. You have nothing to gain by basing your life around a storybook. If it's "the word of God", then why didn't anyone see God speak it? All we can see is a book written by men that wanted to control other people.

Here's a better question. Why are you Christian? I bet I can answer it pretty succinctly.

1. You grew up in a region where most of the people around you were Christian. Since they said Christianity was true, you believed them.

2. It's comfortable. You get to believe that you'll be completely happy in "heaven" after death and even get to feel superior over others about your silly belief.

3. You've never bothered to actually question your faith and see that there was no foundation behind it. There's no evidence that any of this is true other than some stories that parallel stories that are known to be false such as Greek mythology, and stories that you believe to be false such as the Quran.

I could go into more detail to actually explain why I'm convinced there's no personal God, but I think countering your points and pointing out the lack of thought behind your belief is good enough for now.

Lestat

02-24-2007, 01:17 AM

I hate to invoke FSP, but why would you be Christian when you could be Pastafarian? You must be really be nuts or something!

PuppyFridayYall

02-24-2007, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to invoke FSP, but why would you be Christian when you could be Pastafarian? You must be really be nuts or something!

[/ QUOTE ] You are not funny.

PuppyFridayYall

02-24-2007, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Since you put so little effort into your argument, I'll just refute your points instead of actively proving you wrong.

1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

2. Why does there have to be a human-like being to make the earth. Obviously, something somewhere wasn't created by an outside force. You think God wasn't created by an outside force, I think the earth wasn't. What's the difference. Well except that we actually know the earth was created and there's no evidence whatsoever of a god, especially a Christian one.

3. You have nothing to gain by basing your life around a storybook. If it's "the word of God", then why didn't anyone see God speak it? All we can see is a book written by men that wanted to control other people.

Here's a better question. Why are you Christian? I bet I can answer it pretty succinctly.

1. You grew up in a region where most of the people around you were Christian. Since they said Christianity was true, you believed them.

2. It's comfortable. You get to believe that you'll be completely happy in "heaven" after death and even get to feel superior over others about your silly belief.

3. You've never bothered to actually question your faith and see that there was no foundation behind it. There's no evidence that any of this is true other than some stories that parallel stories that are known to be false such as Greek mythology, and stories that you believe to be false such as the Quran.

I could go into more detail to actually explain why I'm convinced there's no personal God, but I think countering your points and pointing out the lack of thought behind your belief is good enough for now.

[/ QUOTE ] You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

bunny

02-24-2007, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be. Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people not believe? I know there are satanics and other religions who do not believe in God but there are also people who do not have ANY FAITH whatsoever and my question is why?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

I'm sure there are more people who can add to this in detail but this is what I could come up with on a moments notice.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont have faith because, in my opinion, a world without God fits the facts better than a world with God. In reply to your points:

1. Most people seem to think I am psychologically fit, despite not believing in God.
2. I think the laws of physics operated in the universe and the Earth (amongst other things) resulted.
3. I may have nothing to lose, but that doesnt change the fact that I dont believe. Even if there was an awful lot to gain - I still dont believe, so just saying I do wouldnt do much good would it?

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 01:53 AM

Those who do not want to understand, won't. I love free agency!!

bunny

02-24-2007, 01:57 AM

Trust me - I would love to understand.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 02:05 AM

As long as you don't say to yourself, "It's impossible for me to understand and I never will" and you keep it a possiblity, you might someday.

It's important you don't predetermine how you will accept things in the future cause you may be denying a feeling that otherwise if you went into it with a open mind it would be undenyable.

Which is why it's -EV to let physical evidence rule out this point of view.

bunny

02-24-2007, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why it's -EV to let physical evidence rule out this point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not to do with physical evidence vs non-physical evidence. It is more to do with internal conistency. Adopting an internally consistent position is a goal (often implicit or unstated) that all rational people share (irrespective of whether they believe in God or not).

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 02:23 AM

That's true, that's a natural thing. I believe that we have free agency and 1000s of choices to see what we will do. I really believe life on earth is a trial to see what would be do with physical bodies and free choice to see what we would believe. Cause think, if we were all in Heaven before this life, wouldn't the father of us all want to know what we would do without being created with a silver spoon in mouth(knowing everything). It makes sense he would want us to have 1000s of choices, free agency, an evil influence and many different truths claiming to be the one with one being the truth.

He wants to know who is going to be ignorant and ignore things for personal indulgence, who is going to purposely deny good and never learn from it, etc.

We all do bad things, some of us though turn out better then others, and I know there is an argument what if ur born here or there, but God has Mercy too, see he can't purposely give us a certain situation, for it to be a true test, it has to be all natural.

Did I ramble off subject? I don't even remember, it's so easy to just get going isnt it?

Enjoying the discussion Bunny..

flipdeadshot22

02-24-2007, 02:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, I don't by the word of god as defined buy the buyble

Duke

02-24-2007, 02:31 AM

There are an infinity of possible gods, and since 1/infinisty = 0, that means that you believe in 0% of all gods. I, too, believe in 0% of all gods.

Everyone is really an atheist. QED

I figure that argument is better than anything in the OP.

Duke

02-24-2007, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you put so little effort into your argument, I'll just refute your points instead of actively proving you wrong.

1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

2. Why does there have to be a human-like being to make the earth. Obviously, something somewhere wasn't created by an outside force. You think God wasn't created by an outside force, I think the earth wasn't. What's the difference. Well except that we actually know the earth was created and there's no evidence whatsoever of a god, especially a Christian one.

3. You have nothing to gain by basing your life around a storybook. If it's "the word of God", then why didn't anyone see God speak it? All we can see is a book written by men that wanted to control other people.

Here's a better question. Why are you Christian? I bet I can answer it pretty succinctly.

1. You grew up in a region where most of the people around you were Christian. Since they said Christianity was true, you believed them.

2. It's comfortable. You get to believe that you'll be completely happy in "heaven" after death and even get to feel superior over others about your silly belief.

3. You've never bothered to actually question your faith and see that there was no foundation behind it. There's no evidence that any of this is true other than some stories that parallel stories that are known to be false such as Greek mythology, and stories that you believe to be false such as the Quran.

I could go into more detail to actually explain why I'm convinced there's no personal God, but I think countering your points and pointing out the lack of thought behind your belief is good enough for now.

[/ QUOTE ] You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this part of some missionary training program? Are you going to get a "Word of Jesus" merit badge because you tossed a couple condescending yet false arguments at people on the internet?

Could you please direct me to your troop leader?

evolvedForm

02-24-2007, 02:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

This claim is far superior to the others. You're right, atheism makes very little psychological sense. Believers are generally happier than nonbelievers, and they probably live longer. Atheists benefit by satisfying an intellectual conscience, but this by no means measures up to the promise of heaven that satisfies religious people. The problem is, we don't have much of a choice; conscience is a strong thing, and it won't budge easily. (Why couldn't I have taken the blue pill?). An atheist believes that it doesn't matter if he has faith or not, yet he still holds on to a hope for enlightenment, no matter how vain he really knows it is. This is the small amount of faith he allows himself, when he feels confident and proud. In weaker moments even this is too far a stretch.

That's not to say it's all bad, however. There are times the atheist rejoices in his freedom, since he has thrown off the yoke of rigid morality. When opportunities present themselves, he doesn't need to restrict himself like the convservative one who slavishly denies his own pleasure.

But, in the scheme of overall happiness, believers win this round. For the most part, at least. I'm pretty sure there are a good amount of self-loathing, life-resenting christians out there who justify life only by the promise of a better one. And that is very sad.

ChrisV

02-24-2007, 02:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! I guess that settles that then.

ChrisV

02-24-2007, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

#335 ARGUMENT FROM WHAT MAKES SENSE (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm)

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Doesn't it just make more sense that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good deity created the world out of nothingness, from magic, essentially, and then punished us for eating a piece of fruit, and then incarnated himself in human flesh and came down to shed his own blood so he could break his own rules, and then went through hell on a temporary basis and then went back into the sky and promised to come back and take everyone who believed in him to this heaven no one has ever seen?
(2) Well, doesn't it?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duke

02-24-2007, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

#335 ARGUMENT FROM WHAT MAKES SENSE (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm)

[ QUOTE ]
(1) Doesn't it just make more sense that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good deity created the world out of nothingness, from magic, essentially, and then punished us for eating a piece of fruit, and then incarnated himself in human flesh and came down to shed his own blood so he could break his own rules, and then went through hell on a temporary basis and then went back into the sky and promised to come back and take everyone who believed in him to this heaven no one has ever seen?
(2) Well, doesn't it?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

What a cheater. When you say it like that, it just seems silly.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you put so little effort into your argument, I'll just refute your points instead of actively proving you wrong.

1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

2. Why does there have to be a human-like being to make the earth. Obviously, something somewhere wasn't created by an outside force. You think God wasn't created by an outside force, I think the earth wasn't. What's the difference. Well except that we actually know the earth was created and there's no evidence whatsoever of a god, especially a Christian one.

3. You have nothing to gain by basing your life around a storybook. If it's "the word of God", then why didn't anyone see God speak it? All we can see is a book written by men that wanted to control other people.

Here's a better question. Why are you Christian? I bet I can answer it pretty succinctly.

1. You grew up in a region where most of the people around you were Christian. Since they said Christianity was true, you believed them.

2. It's comfortable. You get to believe that you'll be completely happy in "heaven" after death and even get to feel superior over others about your silly belief.

3. You've never bothered to actually question your faith and see that there was no foundation behind it. There's no evidence that any of this is true other than some stories that parallel stories that are known to be false such as Greek mythology, and stories that you believe to be false such as the Quran.

I could go into more detail to actually explain why I'm convinced there's no personal God, but I think countering your points and pointing out the lack of thought behind your belief is good enough for now.

[/ QUOTE ] You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this part of some missionary training program? Are you going to get a "Word of Jesus" merit badge because you tossed a couple condescending yet false arguments at people on the internet?

Could you please direct me to your troop leader?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like us all at one point or another, he hasnt learned the proper way to start a discussion to be well receieved.

We all been there, we know how to do it right, from doing it wrong and still learning better ways to discuss things.

schaef

02-24-2007, 03:11 AM

Why does it bother you that some others don't believe? Why are you approaching this fundamentally irrational concept (minus the astronomy/astrophysics aspect) rationally?

Phil153

02-24-2007, 03:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
This could be an interesting topic for discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does something always have to be made by someone?

You'd think [censored] like you would have learnt some humility by now, after having been proven wrong about almost everything. No, schizophrenics aren't possessed by demons, you idiots. Simple, impersonal biology. No, the sun isn't driven by turtles or elephants or chariots or Gods. Simple, impersonal physics. No, there ain't some dude in the sky running a lightning and thunder show, who's responsible for all the rain. Just the impersonal forces of nature. You can slaughter all the animals/people you want to appease the weather God(s), your crops won't get a drop more rain, and you'll still be an idiot.

For everything they can't explain, people with your lack of imagination have always postulated a ghost in the machine. And they have ALWAYS been proven wrong. An observant man would learn to be humble and cautious before invoking an argument that's been proven wrong more times than any other in the history of thought.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not believe in Santa? Apart from the scorn of your peers, you have nothing to gain by denying Santa. Also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question).

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure there are more people who can add to this in detail but this is what I could come up with on a moments notice.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should pray for inspiration/extra gray matter?

Philo

02-24-2007, 03:54 AM

benjdm

02-24-2007, 04:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
there are also people who do not have ANY FAITH whatsoever

[/ QUOTE ]
Yo.
[ QUOTE ]
and my question is why?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because faith is nothing more than wishful thinking.
[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it does. How doesn't it ?
[ QUOTE ]
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

[/ QUOTE ]
It wasn't 'made' by a being.
[ QUOTE ]
3. Why wouldn't you be?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because there is no good reason to be.
[ QUOTE ]
You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is no word of God because there is no God.

furyshade

02-24-2007, 04:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

[/ QUOTE ]

somewhere in the area of 15 billion years ago, a singularity reversed its polarity in relation to time, and went reverse to current time, i.e it exploded, this created a universe filled with energy, of the next few billion years, the energy condensed into matter, starting with hydrogen, helium, and a little bit of lithium, as dark matter and the universes expansion progessed to shape these new formed chemicals, they started cooling and creating heavier elements, these began to swirl based on factors that are a bit lengthy to explain, as the swirled they condensed around a central point, and in the outer rims of this center point, most likely a black hole, stars begain to form, and planets in their wake formed as well, and thus we have our little floating rock in the universe

getajob

02-24-2007, 04:22 AM

the way i look at it is if there is a God, and if he wanted to give a message(religion) to the world, then the true message from the true God should reach more people than any other "fals" message/religion.

In other words if there is a correct religion, then God should be powerful enough to make sure it's the most popular by a mile.

if the God's "message" is the judaen Bible, it definately fits the bill.

muslims/islam, jews, messianic jews, christians (catholic, protestant, orthodox, anglicans, mormon, J's witness)

these are all founded on the Old Testament and make up roughly 54% of the world's population (not just people who believe in God)

hindu - 13%
buddhist - 5.8%

if you're looking for a relationship with the true God, there's only one logical choice, a OT based religion/faith.

of the OT based religions, Christianity and muslim are by far the most popular coming in at 33% and 20%....

personally atheism isn't an option for me, for numerous reasons, most notebly the scientific fact that something can't come from nothing, life can't come from non-life, also DNA.... nearly every living thing on this planet is insanely complex. there's no one who will debate that, even really really ignorant people..

i can't see how anyone can be confident in a beliefe such as evolution, not that it doesn't exist, but that most take it as a explanation for all things, trying to give it credit for things i believe are from God.

Neuge

02-24-2007, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Believers are generally happier than nonbelievers, and they probably live longer.

[/ QUOTE ]
What evidence do you have for either of these claims?

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 04:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the way i look at it is if there is a God, and if he wanted to give a message(religion) to the world, then the true message from the true God should reach more people than any other "fals" message/religion.

In other words if there is a correct religion, then God should be powerful enough to make sure it's the most popular by a mile.

if the God's "message" is the judaen Bible, it definately fits the bill.

muslims/islam, jews, messianic jews, christians (catholic, protestant, orthodox, anglicans, mormon, J's witness)

these are all founded on the Old Testament and make up roughly 54% of the world's population (not just people who believe in God)

hindu - 13%
buddhist - 5.8%

if you're looking for a relationship with the true God, there's only one logical choice, a OT based religion/faith.

of the OT based religions, Christianity and muslim are by far the most popular coming in at 33% and 20%....

personally atheism isn't an option for me, for numerous reasons, most notebly the scientific fact that something can't come from nothing, life can't come from non-life, also DNA.... nearly every living thing on this planet is insanely complex. there's no one who will debate that, even really really ignorant people..

i can't see how anyone can be confident in a beliefe such as evolution, not that it doesn't exist, but that most take it as a explanation for all things, trying to give it credit for things i believe are from God.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe in God, you believe in Satan most likely right?

Who would have a more earlthy power, Satan or God.

The answer is Satan because his goal is to influence us and put us in volurable positions to do evil things as where God let there be his teachings in writing but cannot influence our decisions unless through faith in him.

He just can't make someone feel his power that doesn't want it, that wouldn't make any sense. He wants you, in a world where there is an evil influence and you have your free agency, to make the decision to have faith in him and explore that possiblity with an open heart and mind, if you do that, you will not be denied.

What you do with this knowledge is up to you but it might be the most important thing you will ever read that you will forget most likely within 15 seconds, hmm I wonder who would want that to happen? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

MidGe

02-24-2007, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
... if the God's "message" is the judaen Bible, it definately fits the bill.
...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I suggest all you xtians, Muslims, etc quickly convert to Judaism. At least it is not quite as fragmented as the xtians who thinks catholics are not true xtians, the catholics who think nobody can be saved outside of the church. I am not even talking about Muslim views of those who reject Islam. At least Judaism has no positions, afaik, about salvation, they are quite exemplary in being more interested in how they, themselves, live.

mbillie1

02-24-2007, 05:07 AM

Is OP serious? "How is it possible NOT to be a christian?"

Why does the so-called "Science, Math and Philosophy" board always degenerate into some inane argument about whether or not god exists? You are a physical creature in a physical universe. For evidence of this, see THE ENTIRETY OF MODERN SCIENCE. What part of you is going on after you die? Your entire modality of being is through embodiment... you can't even conceptualize what it would be like to exist disembodied, why the hell would you believe that such existence exists? If you do, why would you think that it's good in any way? Mostly, what could possibly make you think that your belief is the most reasonable one out there?

What makes god's law law? Is it right in itself, or right because god says so? If the latter, what happens if god changes its mind? How does your soul interact with your body? Does it cause your body? Do you have free will? It's difficult for any genuine theology to accommodate free will, but the entirety of christian moral theory depends on it. There are so many absurd and unsolvable problems with any dogmatic theism that always result in a "that's the mystery of faith" type response from someone like OP. And yet you have the nerve to suggest that there's some sort of deficiency in my reason for NOT sharing your beliefs?!

The only reason we think of ourselves as monads or atoms (or our "souls" or whatever as monadic or atomic) is because of the linguistic constructs we are constantly employing to discuss the issue. Try knowing something about science, math or philosophy next time. Sorry if this is coming across as harsh, but I think the question OP should have asked is:

"In 2007 in a developed, educated and scientific country, how can anyone possibly believe in god/religion?"

benjdm

02-24-2007, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"In 2007 in a developed, educated and scientific country, how can anyone possibly believe in god/religion?"

[/ QUOTE ]

In the developed, educated, and scientific countries, they don't, generally.

eurythmech

02-24-2007, 05:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be. Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people not believe? I know there are satanics and other religions who do not believe in God but there are also people who do not have ANY FAITH whatsoever and my question is why?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

I'm sure there are more people who can add to this in detail but this is what I could come up with on a moments notice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're trolling, right?

I would probably believe in the Christian God if I had any little indication that anything in Christianity made sense. If I had any sign that such a God existed etc.

MidGe

02-24-2007, 06:26 AM

Why would anyone be christian, really?
[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, it doesn't.
[ QUOTE ]
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

[/ QUOTE ] and who was god made by then ;-)
[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have everything to loose by following a god depicted, in the bible, as lying, being hateful and behaving in horrible way from a human morality viewpoint.

I'm sure there are more people who can add to this in detail but this is what I could come up with on a moments notice.

getajob

02-24-2007, 06:44 AM

judaeism alone makes up less than 1%

you should try not taking things out of context for the specific purpose of trolling, it's lame and uncontructive

iggymcfly

02-24-2007, 06:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from someone who can't believe the whole planet isn't convinced of Christianity's truth on these three bases.

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice, not one of these arguments gives any evidence that the Christian god exists in any way. They lack any fundamental logic whatsoever. Also, I don't think I could find a statement that more accurately defines trite than "so the earth was made by whom then".

Honestly, OP does bring up a good point though. How could anyone actually believe in Christianity. I always feel like if I sit and talk with Christians for a couple of hours, they'll have to realize how silly the whole thing is, but they never do. I mean it's so obvious. How do they miss it?

PokerAmateur4

02-24-2007, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You'd think [censored] like you would have learnt some humility by now, after having been proven wrong about almost everything. No, schizophrenics aren't possessed by demons, you idiots. Simple, impersonal biology. No, the sun isn't driven by turtles or elephants or chariots or Gods. Simple, impersonal physics. No, there ain't some dude in the sky running a lightning and thunder show, who's responsible for all the rain. Just the impersonal forces of nature. You can slaughter all the animals/people you want to appease the weather God(s), your crops won't get a drop more rain, and you'll still be an idiot.

For everything they can't explain, people with your lack of imagination have always postulated a ghost in the machine. And they have ALWAYS been proven wrong. An observant man would learn to be humble and cautious before invoking an argument that's been proven wrong more times than any other in the history of thought.

[/ QUOTE ]This is good writing.

MidGe

02-24-2007, 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
judaeism alone makes up less than 1%

you should try not taking things out of context for the specific purpose of trolling, it's lame and uncontructive

[/ QUOTE ]

The other xtians church, and the muslims, are at each other throats, why should they not focus on what they all seem to agree to, the OT?

I think it is very constructive.

Sorry you don't see it. I guess yours is a typically narrow-minded x-brand of christianity or islam view.

Of course from your perspective everyone should become catholic. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lestat

02-24-2007, 07:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to invoke FSP, but why would you be Christian when you could be Pastafarian? You must be really be nuts or something!

[/ QUOTE ] You are not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to be funny. Just trying to match your logic.

PokerAmateur4

02-24-2007, 07:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to invoke FSP, but why would you be Christian when you could be Pastafarian? You must be really be nuts or something!

[/ QUOTE ] You are not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to be funny. Just trying to match your logic.

[/ QUOTE ]You did. OP, what's the difference in logic between what Lestat said and what you said?

MidGe

02-24-2007, 07:10 AM

At least, since Pastafarian is not as finely/detailed or defined as xtianity it is more coherent and lack less in internal logic and consistency.

iggymcfly

02-24-2007, 07:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You'd think [censored] like you would have learnt some humility by now, after having been proven wrong about almost everything. No, schizophrenics aren't possessed by demons, you idiots. Simple, impersonal biology. No, the sun isn't driven by turtles or elephants or chariots or Gods. Simple, impersonal physics. No, there ain't some dude in the sky running a lightning and thunder show, who's responsible for all the rain. Just the impersonal forces of nature. You can slaughter all the animals/people you want to appease the weather God(s), your crops won't get a drop more rain, and you'll still be an idiot.

For everything they can't explain, people with your lack of imagination have always postulated a ghost in the machine. And they have ALWAYS been proven wrong. An observant man would learn to be humble and cautious before invoking an argument that's been proven wrong more times than any other in the history of thought.

[/ QUOTE ]This is good writing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I feel kind of bad that I went back to my silly argument with the OP from 30 posts ago right away instead of commenting on this gem. Very well-articulated.

getajob

02-24-2007, 07:23 AM

i'm not sure why my post made you want to bring up Satan, but ok..

there's a good reason why we're born into a world of sin, with a sin nature. Since God has limited free will (he can't compromize his perfect nature ie 'sin') it would be highly unfair to make us responsible for free will. In other words if God gave everyone the choice to sin, eventually we'd all fail and suffer the consequences.

Instead God took the burden of responsibilty away from us so that when we sin, God has no problem with forgiving us because it was He who predestined us with sin.

through out the bible God has a habit of throwing a curve ball at those who believe they understand the teachings. for example many jewish religous leaders were extremely offended at all the laws Jesus broke and changed around. Jesus basically told all the jews that what they believed, the laws they followed, it was all to show them how much they needed a savior to free them.

anyway, i believe that the idea of the after life consisting of heaven and hell is not what it seems. fire is often used as a form of purification in the Bible, i believe everyone will be shown the truth after they die, and it will be so powerful that everyone will acknowledge it, painful as that might be.

getajob

02-24-2007, 07:38 AM

lol... you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever read the Bible? Do you know the difference between jew, christian, and muslim?

It always amazes me when people try arguing and giving opinions on issues they have absolutely no understanding of.

i don't associate myself with any current branch of christianity. there's no mention of them in the bible, in fact it specifically says that there are no hidden truths that need to be taught, you can get everything you need just by reading it yourself.

Churches are for fellowship, comunion, prayer, and guidance.

anyway, i wish you the best

yukoncpa

02-24-2007, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
lol... you have no idea what you're talking about. Have you ever read the Bible? Do you know the difference between jew, Christian, and Muslim?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why laugh? Most posters here, and certainly Midge, have read the bible and understand the difference between the various major beliefs. Judaism is based on the Torah, or what Christians call the Old Testament. Given that the old testament is correct, it is pretty obvious that Christianity must be false. Why? For one, Jesus Christ did not fulfill any of the old testament Messianic prophesies. But regardless of if Christianity is true or not, Christians who would condemn a person to hell for simply not believing, are offensive. Christians seem to believe that faith and not works are all it takes for admittance to heaven. Jews are much more logical in their thinking. “Salvation” (which isn’t technically a Jewish concept ) isn’t achieved through faith in a three in one man/God , but rather through living a good life, doing what’s right, and when you make a mistake, atone for that mistake, by repentance, which means making amends to those you’ve wronged.

[ QUOTE ]
It always amazes me when people try arguing and giving opinions on issues they have absolutely no understanding of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why be rude? Just address whatever issues a poster has no understanding of.

MidGe

02-24-2007, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever read the Bible? Do you know the difference between jew, christian, and muslim?

[/ QUOTE ]

By the sound your answer I have read it more than you have. I mean of course, the Koran as well as the OT and NT and other religious writings.

But I disagree with you that churches are for guidance, if they are, they are failing. Churches are not necessary for prayers or communion. Maybe they provide fellowship... You seem to be sucked in for that one.

chief444

02-24-2007, 03:43 PM

Because you can't come up with a better argument than that as to why I should be.

Why are some people not [insert random religion here]?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

Disclaimer: FWIW I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I'm ok just admitting I (or anyone for that matter) don't know for sure. I have nothing against anyone who believes or doesn't beilieve in whatever God. But nobody really knows. And that's ok to just admit. What's always confused me is why most people feel they must form a strong opinion one way or the other.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and who was god made by then ;-)

[/ QUOTE ]

This question is equal when saying then who created the universe unless you want to believe it started from nothing, which is well, some made up belief your comfortable with.

[ QUOTE ]

You have everything to loose by following a god depicted, in the bible, as lying, being hateful and behaving in horrible way from a human morality viewpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever hear the saying you can look at this Half Empty or Half full? I guess there are 2 ways to look at things and both will feel equally about those 2 ways. I love free agency!

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there are more people who can add to this in detail but this is what I could come up with on a moments notice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Post cause there can be a valid response, point of discussion right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 04:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from someone who can't believe the whole planet isn't convinced of Christianity's truth on these three bases.

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice, not one of these arguments gives any evidence that the Christian god exists in any way. They lack any fundamental logic whatsoever. Also, I don't think I could find a statement that more accurately defines trite than "so the earth was made by whom then".

Honestly, OP does bring up a good point though. How could anyone actually believe in Christianity. I always feel like if I sit and talk with Christians for a couple of hours, they'll have to realize how silly the whole thing is, but they never do. I mean it's so obvious. How do they miss it?

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is completely useless because one, you critize lack of absolute proof, which is the whole point of Science and Math is new discovery.

And when you say how could anybody believe in Christianity your doing the same thing he is.

Yes, OP is totally just ridiculous because you can't just say why arent you this, etc. He should know that a true belief in God means more then being a Holiday Christian.

eurythmech

02-24-2007, 04:21 PM

Why did there have to be a beginning?

Lestat

02-24-2007, 04:28 PM

This question is equal when saying then who created the universe unless you want to believe it started from nothing, which is well, some made up belief your comfortable with. 

I seriously don't understand how theists don't see the paradox here. Nobody is going to disagree that "first cause" is currently anything but inexplicable. But plugging in a god as an answer creates much more problematic questions than it answers, since such a god would have to be even MORE complicated than the universe itself in order to create it.

So which is more problematic: That a complicated universe sprung up out of (who-knows)? Or that an even more complex god just sprung up out of nothing?

Let's see if you can provide a serious answer this time, instead of throwing around insults because you can't think of anything intelligent to say.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not sure why my post made you want to bring up Satan, but ok..

there's a good reason why we're born into a world of sin, with a sin nature. Since God has limited free will (he can't compromize his perfect nature ie 'sin') it would be highly unfair to make us responsible for free will. In other words if God gave everyone the choice to sin, eventually we'd all fail and suffer the consequences.

Instead God took the burden of responsibilty away from us so that when we sin, God has no problem with forgiving us because it was He who predestined us with sin.

through out the bible God has a habit of throwing a curve ball at those who believe they understand the teachings. for example many jewish religous leaders were extremely offended at all the laws Jesus broke and changed around. Jesus basically told all the jews that what they believed, the laws they followed, it was all to show them how much they needed a savior to free them.

anyway, i believe that the idea of the after life consisting of heaven and hell is not what it seems. fire is often used as a form of purification in the Bible, i believe everyone will be shown the truth after they die, and it will be so powerful that everyone will acknowledge it, painful as that might be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I brought it up because it's what I believe is the center on confusion and diverse thinking into SOOOOO many things other then God.

I think it's great what you believe. I sure as hell think its better then having the mindset that just cause science and math doesnt prove it, I shouldnt believe in it mentality.

You may not believe this but your way of thinking about heaven and hell is what Mormons believe. We really refer to hell as outer darkness. It's not Hell as most think of it, fire, etc. We also believe the fact that people are going to go up and realize the truth and look at the decisions they made on earth and remember there existance in heaven before going on earth and really weep and repent.

However, I believe there are some people who will deny Christ to his face who are truly evil, I just don't think it's like many. Like just the true evil who didn't just develope a evil sickness, but they are sickenly evil.

They will be cast out so far away into outer darkness it would make the universe look small and the hell would be knowing what they could have had with better choices.

Mormons believe in 3 levels of Heaven, just makes sense doesn't it? That there are so me people who deserve to go one place and not the other, who knows which, as it is not obvious, it's really down to who you truly are on the inside and what you would do if truth was presented right in front of you, etc.

You natural intuition is remarkably spot on sir. You should explore that.

theweatherman

02-24-2007, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mormons believe in 3 levels of Heaven, just makes sense doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why stop at three? why not an individual heaven for each individual? certainly no one is equally pious.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 07:07 PM

Cause its not my Heaven, it's the Heaven that was told by Jesus to Joseph Smith.
_
No man can wear one face to himself and another to the multitude without finally getting bewildered as to which may be true.

Hawthorne

arahant

02-24-2007, 07:14 PM

Have these threads become more common lately, or is that just a false impression? Why do we continue to discuss this issue with morons? Can't we just have some sort of more interesting side discussion about the cultural and social underpinnings of religion? I mean, this is just sad. It's not like there is some debate over whether christians have a clue. For chrissake...."the world is complicated so god did it"? Damn...

valenzuela

02-24-2007, 07:56 PM

valenzuela

02-24-2007, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since you put so little effort into your argument, I'll just refute your points instead of actively proving you wrong.

1. "Psychological sense?" WTF is that? Is that where the idea that there's a man in the sky that takes care of all your needs and makes you happy for eternity is comfortable? Is that psychological sense? I suppose believing in Santa Claus makes pyschological sense too. Too bad it doesn't make actual sense.

2. Why does there have to be a human-like being to make the earth. Obviously, something somewhere wasn't created by an outside force. You think God wasn't created by an outside force, I think the earth wasn't. What's the difference. Well except that we actually know the earth was created and there's no evidence whatsoever of a god, especially a Christian one.

3. You have nothing to gain by basing your life around a storybook. If it's "the word of God", then why didn't anyone see God speak it? All we can see is a book written by men that wanted to control other people.

Here's a better question. Why are you Christian? I bet I can answer it pretty succinctly.

1. You grew up in a region where most of the people around you were Christian. Since they said Christianity was true, you believed them.

2. It's comfortable. You get to believe that you'll be completely happy in "heaven" after death and even get to feel superior over others about your silly belief.

3. You've never bothered to actually question your faith and see that there was no foundation behind it. There's no evidence that any of this is true other than some stories that parallel stories that are known to be false such as Greek mythology, and stories that you believe to be false such as the Quran.

I could go into more detail to actually explain why I'm convinced there's no personal God, but I think countering your points and pointing out the lack of thought behind your belief is good enough for now.

[/ QUOTE ] You're reasonings are trite, incorrect, and lacking fundamentals.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, I missed this valuable post. I guess Im now a christian.

CallMeIshmael

02-24-2007, 08:04 PM

Now... even though I agree with the religious views of a lot of the responders, I have to say that a lot of people on this board are so in love with posting about how illogical religion is, that they TOTALLY FELL INTO WHAT THE OP WANTED THEM TO DO

getajob

02-24-2007, 08:19 PM

ur mormon sitnhit?

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 09:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ur mormon sitnhit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct

Ralph Wiggum

02-24-2007, 09:37 PM

OP: Try to step into the shoes of an atheist. I'd suggest doing some research and reading the works of famous atheist like Sam Harris & Richard Dawkins. Then try to construct an argument against religion & Christianity. Then I think you'll better understand, if not agree that there's a very strong argument against religion.

vhawk01

02-24-2007, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to invoke FSP, but why would you be Christian when you could be Pastafarian? You must be really be nuts or something!

[/ QUOTE ] You are not funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians really, really hate the FSM. And they usually act like they don't get it. Do you think they really don't get it, or are just intimidated by the fact that it is extremely powerful and amazingly simple? Thats pretty terrifying, I suppose.

vhawk01

02-24-2007, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As long as you don't say to yourself, "It's impossible for me to understand and I never will" and you keep it a possiblity, you might someday.

It's important you don't predetermine how you will accept things in the future cause you may be denying a feeling that otherwise if you went into it with a open mind it would be undenyable.

Which is why it's -EV to let physical evidence rule out this point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope you mean 'absolutely will' and not 'might.' Otherwise, it doesn't say much about benevolence.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As long as you don't say to yourself, "It's impossible for me to understand and I never will" and you keep it a possiblity, you might someday.

It's important you don't predetermine how you will accept things in the future cause you may be denying a feeling that otherwise if you went into it with a open mind it would be undenyable.

Which is why it's -EV to let physical evidence rule out this point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope you mean 'absolutely will' and not 'might.' Otherwise, it doesn't say much about benevolence.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's so funny , this moment im blasting "Another a Brick in the Wall" by Pink Floyd - "We don't need no education", TEACHER, LEAVE US KIDS ALONE, while reading this forum, bobbing my head to slick beats. It makes it very fun, Gilmour doing his genius on the guitar right now.

Anyways, it's true that those who set out on a truth seeking quest and really want it I can't see how eventually unless you die young you won't get that feeling but since sooooo many don't , a vast majority, I said might cause I don't know a particular persons purpose, I just know the grand purpose.

vhawk01

02-24-2007, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As long as you don't say to yourself, "It's impossible for me to understand and I never will" and you keep it a possiblity, you might someday.

It's important you don't predetermine how you will accept things in the future cause you may be denying a feeling that otherwise if you went into it with a open mind it would be undenyable.

Which is why it's -EV to let physical evidence rule out this point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope you mean 'absolutely will' and not 'might.' Otherwise, it doesn't say much about benevolence.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's so funny , this moment im blasting "Another a Brick in the Wall" by Pink Floyd - "We don't need no education", TEACHER, LEAVE US KIDS ALONE, while reading this forum, bobbing my head to slick beats. It makes it very fun, Gilmour doing his genius on the guitar right now.

Anyways, it's true that those who set out on a truth seeking quest and really want it I can't see how eventually unless you die young you won't get that feeling but since sooooo many don't , a vast majority, I said might cause I don't know a particular persons purpose, I just know the grand purpose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I die young? LOL.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 11:41 PM

Well if someone dies when there 15, they not reach the maturity needed to look at things with open mind.

But as evident, some never reach it.

That not make any sense to you? If I say I or you means everyone. Just the way I speak.

vhawk01

02-24-2007, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well if someone dies when there 15, they not reach the maturity needed to look at things with open mind.

But as evident, some never reach it.

That not make any sense to you? If I say I or you means everyone. Just the way I speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but surely Jesus can't exclude kids from understanding, if understanding is so pivotal.

iggymcfly

02-24-2007, 11:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
 This question is equal when saying then who created the universe unless you want to believe it started from nothing, which is well, some made up belief your comfortable with. 

I seriously don't understand how theists don't see the paradox here. Nobody is going to disagree that "first cause" is currently anything but inexplicable. But plugging in a god as an answer creates much more problematic questions than it answers, since such a god would have to be even MORE complicated than the universe itself in order to create it.

So which is more problematic: That a complicated universe sprung up out of (who-knows)? Or that an even more complex god just sprung up out of nothing?

Let's see if you can provide a serious answer this time, instead of throwing around insults because you can't think
of anything intelligent to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, I do consider myself an atheist in general, but a weak atheist in that I can see the arguments of deism, and think it has some merit. This paradox right here is a major reason why I don't completely resist the argument for some form of deity.

Look at the time paradox. Time as we know it is infinite, basically with no beginning or end. And yet if you look at all the events through the history of the universe, one of them must have been before all the others. Basically, time in itself, is nonsensical.

Therefore, you could make the argument that there must be some kind of being or consicousness outside of time that created this nonsensical time-governed universe. A "god" who just exists perpetually.

On the other hand, this could just be another "god of the gaps" argument in that we don't understand how time works and are therefore making artifical constraints. Also, note that this argument in no way suggests a personal god or an afterlife. It does keep me from completely resisting some form of deism however.

SitNHit

02-24-2007, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if someone dies when there 15, they not reach the maturity needed to look at things with open mind.

But as evident, some never reach it.

That not make any sense to you? If I say I or you means everyone. Just the way I speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order for his plan to work, everything has to be natural, those who don't live a full life will learn what they need to in heaven or whatever he wants to do, of course when given our own place, bodies, minds and allows the devil to enter this world there are going bad things as a result. And some things naturally will happen cause that's how it needs to be.

Why do you expect me to explain in a way that you will understand when your goal is to not understand anything I say but come back with something meaningless.

Right, but surely Jesus can't exclude kids from understanding, if understanding is so pivotal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your like one of those kids that just keeps asking , why?

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

BTW, Pink Floyd Rocks

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 12:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if someone dies when there 15, they not reach the maturity needed to look at things with open mind.

But as evident, some never reach it.

That not make any sense to you? If I say I or you means everyone. Just the way I speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but surely Jesus can't exclude kids from understanding, if understanding is so pivotal.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order for his plan to work, everything has to be natural, those who don't live a full life will learn what they need to in heaven or whatever he wants to do, of course when given our own place, bodies, minds and allows the devil to enter this world there are going bad things as a result. And some things naturally will happen cause that's how it needs to be.

Why do you expect me to explain in a way that you will understand when your goal is to not understand anything I say but come back with something meaningless.

Your like one of those kids that just keeps asking , why?

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

You seem to be in that boat from your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first paragraph contradicts what you said earlier, but its the answer I wanted to get at, thats why I kept prodding. When a person dies cannot possibly have any impact on whether they achieve understanding. Surely you agree?

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 12:01 AM

SitNHit

02-25-2007, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if someone dies when there 15, they not reach the maturity needed to look at things with open mind.

But as evident, some never reach it.

That not make any sense to you? If I say I or you means everyone. Just the way I speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but surely Jesus can't exclude kids from understanding, if understanding is so pivotal.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order for his plan to work, everything has to be natural, those who don't live a full life will learn what they need to in heaven or whatever he wants to do, of course when given our own place, bodies, minds and allows the devil to enter this world there are going bad things as a result. And some things naturally will happen cause that's how it needs to be.

Why do you expect me to explain in a way that you will understand when your goal is to not understand anything I say but come back with something meaningless.

Your like one of those kids that just keeps asking , why?

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

You seem to be in that boat from your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first paragraph contradicts what you said earlier, but its the answer I wanted to get at, thats why I kept prodding. When a person dies cannot possibly have any impact on whether they achieve understanding. Surely you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of technicalities that are not worth getting into that explain this. It would be like me trying to explain how to make my famous spahghetti and meatballs to a dog.

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 12:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well if someone dies when there 15, they not reach the maturity needed to look at things with open mind.

But as evident, some never reach it.

That not make any sense to you? If I say I or you means everyone. Just the way I speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but surely Jesus can't exclude kids from understanding, if understanding is so pivotal.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order for his plan to work, everything has to be natural, those who don't live a full life will learn what they need to in heaven or whatever he wants to do, of course when given our own place, bodies, minds and allows the devil to enter this world there are going bad things as a result. And some things naturally will happen cause that's how it needs to be.

Why do you expect me to explain in a way that you will understand when your goal is to not understand anything I say but come back with something meaningless.

Your like one of those kids that just keeps asking , why?

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

You seem to be in that boat from your posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your first paragraph contradicts what you said earlier, but its the answer I wanted to get at, thats why I kept prodding. When a person dies cannot possibly have any impact on whether they achieve understanding. Surely you agree?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of technicalities that are not worth getting into that explain this. It would be like me trying to explain how to make my famous spahghetti and meatballs to a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flattering analogy.

iggymcfly

02-25-2007, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of technicalities that are not worth getting into that explain this. It would be like me trying to explain how to make my famous spahghetti and meatballs to a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey SitNHit. What happened to your promise from the other day to quit trolling and try to actually engage in reasonable discussion. You're not making any kind of analogy ar all here; you're basically just saying that the posters on here are as stupid as dogs and they wouldn't understand what you say, even though it's obvious that you're not even smart enough to express your own opinions.

Prodigy54321

02-25-2007, 12:41 AM

SitNHit

02-25-2007, 12:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of technicalities that are not worth getting into that explain this. It would be like me trying to explain how to make my famous spahghetti and meatballs to a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey SitNHit. What happened to your promise from the other day to quit trolling and try to actually engage in reasonable discussion. You're not making any kind of analogy ar all here; you're basically just saying that the posters on here are as stupid as dogs and they wouldn't understand what you say, even though it's obvious that you're not even smart enough to express your own opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in regards to discussing what others believe, you have the argument of dogs. If I were to make posts and let a dog look at the screen and he barks three times, I don't see a difference in the majority of the posts here when it comes to religion and God.

Thought you should know. BTW, my posts usually seem more tempered when I am tired, so if you see one that's all nice and polite and well thought out, it's cause I am awake and energized. When I am not, I am not as alert, aware, smart and more emotional and intollerant.
t't

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of technicalities that are not worth getting into that explain this. It would be like me trying to explain how to make my famous spahghetti and meatballs to a dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey SitNHit. What happened to your promise from the other day to quit trolling and try to actually engage in reasonable discussion. You're not making any kind of analogy ar all here; you're basically just saying that the posters on here are as stupid as dogs and they wouldn't understand what you say, even though it's obvious that you're not even smart enough to express your own opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in regards to discussing what others believe, you have the argument of dogs. If I were to make posts and let a dog look at the screen and he barks three times, I don't see a difference in the majority of the posts here when it comes to religion and God.

Thought you should know. BTW, my posts usually seem more tempered when I am tired, so if you see one that's all nice and polite and well thought out, it's cause I am awake and energized. When I am not, I am not as alert, aware, smart and more emotional and intollerant.
t't

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know what tempered means, and you know less about religion and God than the vast majority of posters here. You know more about Mormonism than some of us, though probably not all. Its hilarious to me that you think religion = your religion and God = your God.

NotReady

02-25-2007, 01:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If I were to make posts and let a dog look at the screen and he barks three times, I don't see a difference in the majority of the posts here when it comes to religion and God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Post of the week.

flipdeadshot22

02-25-2007, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why did there have to be a beginning?

[/ QUOTE ]

This has a physical basis (wiki thermodynamics), or I can give the simplest explanation in five words as: Entropy is a monotonic function

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 01:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I were to make posts and let a dog look at the screen and he barks three times, I don't see a difference in the majority of the posts here when it comes to religion and God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Post of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]

NR, are you seriously agreeing with him? Compared to what? If you think that the majority of posters in this forum have the understanding of a dog compared to the understanding of SitNHit, -1000 respect points.

NotReady

02-25-2007, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]

NR, are you seriously agreeing with him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just thought it was funny. Calvin used to refer to his opponents as barking dogs. When I read him for the first time decades ago I thought he was being harsh. I'm beginning to think he was lenient.

vhawk01

02-25-2007, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

NR, are you seriously agreeing with him?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just thought it was funny. Calvin used to refer to his opponents as barking dogs. When I read him for the first time decades ago I thought he was being harsh. I'm beginning to think he was lenient.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the post of yours I just read about robot evolution, are you sure condescension is the way to go?

NotReady

02-25-2007, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]

After the post of yours I just read about robot evolution, are you sure condescension is the way to go?

[/ QUOTE ]

After a response like yours it becomes ever more attractive.

flipdeadshot22

02-25-2007, 01:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who read this? Equating intellectual curiosity with childishness; and being in favor of total ignorance. Oh, and <bark, bark, bark>

flipdeadshot22

02-25-2007, 01:30 AM

Also, isn't philosophy defined as the art of asking questions? Doesn't that make you feel a bit strange posting something like the above quote in a discussion group entitled: "Science, Math, and Philosophy"?

Lestat

02-25-2007, 02:25 AM

On the other hand, this could just be another "god of the gaps" argument in that we don't understand how time works and are therefore making artifical constraints. Also, note that this argument in no way suggests a personal god or an afterlife. It does keep me from completely resisting some form of deism however.


I very much agree with this and it might interest some that I also don't completely reject the idea of some form of deity.

Most likely we don't fully understand the dimension of time (if it even exists at all). My main point was that we should avoid jumping to the conclusion of a "personal" god just because these things are beyond our mental capacity. Lack of understand is in no way proof of anything. Especially something that would have to be more complicated than that which we don't understand.

ShakeZula06

02-25-2007, 02:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your like one of those kids that just keeps asking , why?

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

[/ QUOTE ]
You, or rather any christian is making the claim that the Christian god exists. If anyone is going to hold any type of position, why would they do so without any reason? My cell phone is sitting next to me, I think it created the universe. Why you say? Well, some things are unexplainable, it just did. Stop being childish and asking why.

kurto

02-25-2007, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your like one of those kids that just keeps asking , why?

That's how a child acts. Children need an answer for everything then never like what they hear. So grow up and quit making very stupid comparisions or reasons, I am human, God is God, your you and some things are unexplainable. The End.

[/ QUOTE ]
You, or rather any christian is making the claim that the Christian god exists. If anyone is going to hold any type of position, why would they do so without any reason? My cell phone is sitting next to me, I think it created the universe. Why you say? Well, some things are unexplainable, it just did. Stop being childish and asking why.

[/ QUOTE ]

How, in any way, is this going any different then any sitnhit thread?

utter pointlessness.

Klompy

02-25-2007, 05:09 AM

read about half the thread, but you're a retard if you don't think there is a god.

MidGe

02-25-2007, 05:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
read about half the thread, but you're a retard if you don't think there is a god.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? LOL. It just shows how easily you are convinced, dude!

Duke

02-25-2007, 06:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
read about half the thread, but you're a retard if you don't think there is a god.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? LOL. It just shows how easily you are convinced, dude!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm quite certain that he just reverted to his own ideas on the matter, and wasn't at all convinced either way by any post in the thread.

DonkBluffer

02-25-2007, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
read about half the thread, but you're a retard if you don't think there is a god.

[/ QUOTE ]

A classic 32'er!

ARGUMENT FROM SMUGNESS
(1) God exists.
(2) I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

roblin

02-25-2007, 01:57 PM

why even bother reasoning with religious people? reason with reasonable people istead. much more rewarding.

evolvedForm

02-25-2007, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What evidence do you have for either of these claims?

[/ QUOTE ]

As to the claim that believers are generally happier, I have personal experience and, not to mention, the basic argument that ignorance is bliss.

As to the claim that beleivers live longer - I read this statistic a while back. Hard to evaluate it objectively, I admit. However, it does make sense from the standpoint of relieving stress. If you think faith will save you, you're mind can better be at ease.

RazzSpazz

02-25-2007, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why even bother reasoning with religious people? reason with reasonable people istead. much more rewarding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aristotle says "For a man whose life is guided by emotion will not listen to an argument that dissuades him, nor will he understand it. How can we possibly persuade a man like that to change his ways? And in general it seems that emotion does not yield to argument but only to force. Therefore, there must first be a character that loves what is noble and feels disgust at what is base."

Perhaps our arguments will one day sink in...and eventually each successive generation will reason a bit more than the previous one...

MuresanForMVP

02-25-2007, 04:41 PM

Hoi Polloi

02-26-2007, 07:23 PM

MegaloMialo

02-27-2007, 08:37 AM

Could someone who fully comprehends the bible tell me why god only cares that we have faith?
If god is all knowing should he not know that we would come to a point in our evolution where we would seek answers through logic and not through putting blind faith in a book that supposedly was written 2000 years ago by humans.
Why should be just have faith in that? why is it bad to request some proof?

mvdgaag

02-27-2007, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please elaborate
[ QUOTE ]
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all there is no reason to believe it has been 'made'. Most alternatives are more plausible than god to me.
[ QUOTE ]
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trying not to be sarcastic, so please answer why there is a difference: You've got nothing to lose to believe in santaclaus either.

If there is a god he is a very evil one: Look at the world.

bluesbassman

02-27-2007, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did there have to be a beginning?

[/ QUOTE ]

This has a physical basis (wiki thermodynamics), or I can give the simplest explanation in five words as: Entropy is a monotonic function

[/ QUOTE ]

Entropy isn't a function at all (it's a property of a system), much less a monotonic one.

flipdeadshot22

02-27-2007, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did there have to be a beginning?

[/ QUOTE ]

This has a physical basis (wiki thermodynamics), or I can give the simplest explanation in five words as: Entropy is a monotonic function

[/ QUOTE ]

Entropy isn't a function at all (it's a property of a system), much less a monotonic one.

[/ QUOTE ]

admittedly, it's been about two years since my last class in thermo, so I may be a little off, but as to it not being monotonic, are you trying to tell me that at the scale of the universe, it isn't constantly increasing?

Silent A

02-27-2007, 05:32 PM

I'll just add that monotnic funtions in time don't need to have a beginning.

y = hyp_tan(t), for example, is monotonic, exists from t= (-inf,+inf), and is bound by y = (-1,+1).

ramsclub

03-01-2007, 09:18 PM

the red one definatly the red one

PuppyFridayYall

03-05-2007, 02:53 AM

Have yet to see a single good argument here.

Jake

Lurker.

03-05-2007, 03:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Have yet to see a single good argument here.

Jake

[/ QUOTE ]
that pickle is bad news.
On to your post.
"i have yet to see a single good argument"
you haven't even given a good argument. The only part of the OP that makes any sense at all is the psychological part.
The earth formed over time, just like the other planets in the solar system which is in the universe. It was NOT created by some higher power in seven days yada yada yada.

Sidenote: If you're so religious you shouldn't gamble.
That is all.

ChrisV

03-05-2007, 04:01 AM

You didn't advance any new arguments to start with.

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) is a subjective judgement. God not existing makes plenty of sense to me.

2) is a version of the cosmological argument, which has a number of problems, the most glaring of which is that it begs the question of who made God. Christians usually respond with a smug "Nobody - he's always been there!" as though that answered the question. The idea that the universe didn't require a creator is no different to the idea that God didn't require a creator. Both are a rejection of the idea that everything needs to be created or caused.

3) is Pascal's wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager). The thing I've never understood about that old chestnut is the idea that you can choose to believe. I believe that the sky is blue. If my life depended on believing that the sky is red, I couldn't do it. I can say I believe that, but the fact is that I don't.

Piers

03-05-2007, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are some people not Christian

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s debatable. But on general principles, variation is desirable for flexible evolution. Who knows maybe things will change so that it does make psychological sense.

[ QUOTE ]
So the earth was made by whom then?

[/ QUOTE ]

No one knows, and know when will ever know. However many people have a need to believe they know and answer to this.

Edit: Sorry I misread earth for universe. Check out an Astrophysics textbook for an explanation of the formation of the earth.

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldn't you be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you believe it’s a conscious decision? Maybe for some people it is.

[ QUOTE ]
You have nothing to gain by not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh? What dose “the word of God” mean?

SixT4

03-05-2007, 05:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be. Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people not believe? I know there are satanics and other religions who do not believe in God but there are also people who do not have ANY FAITH whatsoever and my question is why?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

I'm sure there are more people who can add to this in detail but this is what I could come up with on a moments notice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe in a God, but the proof that Jesus was the Son of God is in rather sketchy, biased and unreliable accounts that were written an awful long time ago.

Also, the church is full of [censored].

MidGe

03-05-2007, 05:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. God not existing is a relief to me. At least there is a limit to the possible evil he/the universe is capable of.

2. So, god was made by who then? Moran!

3. You have everything to gain by not taking the bible seriously. You may hit on a better solution than the one promoted in it.

Sorry, this was really addressed to the poster you answered! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

bunny

03-05-2007, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3) is Pascal's wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager). The thing I've never understood about that old chestnut is the idea that you can choose to believe. I believe that the sky is blue. If my life depended on believing that the sky is red, I couldn't do it. I can say I believe that, but the fact is that I don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
My understanding is that Pascal never suggested you could choose to believe. His argument was that if you immersed yourself in Christian culture and acted like a believer (even though you began an atheist) you would eventually come to believe for real. The claim then being that if you dont actually believe at the end of your life or if God doesnt actually exist, then you have lost nothing.

_brady_

03-06-2007, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Have yet to see a single good argument here.

Jake

[/ QUOTE ]

The arguments you made could be made for pretty much any religion. So then...

Why are some people Christian and not Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.?

ojc02

03-06-2007, 08:36 AM

http://i6.tinypic.com/2hpod9j.jpg

Ben K

03-06-2007, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

This claim is far superior to the others. You're right, atheism makes very little psychological sense. Believers are generally happier than nonbelievers, and they probably live longer. Atheists benefit by satisfying an intellectual conscience, but this by no means measures up to the promise of heaven that satisfies religious people. The problem is, we don't have much of a choice; conscience is a strong thing, and it won't budge easily. (Why couldn't I have taken the blue pill?). An atheist believes that it doesn't matter if he has faith or not, yet he still holds on to a hope for enlightenment, no matter how vain he really knows it is. This is the small amount of faith he allows himself, when he feels confident and proud. In weaker moments even this is too far a stretch.

That's not to say it's all bad, however. There are times the atheist rejoices in his freedom, since he has thrown off the yoke of rigid morality. When opportunities present themselves, he doesn't need to restrict himself like the convservative one who slavishly denies his own pleasure.

But, in the scheme of overall happiness, believers win this round. For the most part, at least. I'm pretty sure there are a good amount of self-loathing, life-resenting christians out there who justify life only by the promise of a better one. And that is very sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Far superior perhaps but still far from correct. Non-believers are more intelligent and better educated, on average, than believers. This has been proved many times.

Greater education improves life expectancy because of access to better jobs with better pay and increased access to healthcare and generally better life preserving decision making. This is also proved continually by studies into mortality.

So there are proven positive statistical links between non-believing and life expectancy.

As for general happiness, well. A bit hard to measure no? Essentially, believers and non-believers do all the same things in life, often including church so why would you suggest they would be generally less happy. Oh, yeah becuase you're told this is the case.

Hoi Polloi

03-06-2007, 06:32 PM

Why are some people not atheists?

This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be. Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people believe? I know there are satanics and christians and other religions who believe in God and my question is why?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain by following the word of God as he set it out.

PuppyFridayYall

03-06-2007, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. God not existing is a relief to me. At least there is a limit to the possible evil he/the universe is capable of.

2. So, god was made by who then? Moran!

3. You have everything to gain by not taking the bible seriously. You may hit on a better solution than the one promoted in it.

Sorry, this was really addressed to the poster you answered! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Says the man who can't spell moron,.

PuppyFridayYall

03-06-2007, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why are some people not atheists?

This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be. Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people believe? I know there are satanics and christians and other religions who believe in God and my question is why?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain by following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm wow this is so inherently stupid I don't know where to begin. Don't you think its a little obvious that you just copied my post and changed some words around? The one thing is it doesn't make sense your way.

Lestat

03-06-2007, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are some people not atheists?

This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be. Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people believe? I know there are satanics and christians and other religions who believe in God and my question is why?

1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain by following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm wow this is so inherently stupid I don't know where to begin. Don't you think its a little obvious that you just copied my post and changed some words around? The one thing is it doesn't make sense your way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, and to everyone not of your ilk, YOUR way doesn't make sense! It's laughable that you can't see his response is no more stupid than the OP (his intention, I'm sure).

What a small little self-important world you live in.

MidGe

03-06-2007, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. God not existing is a relief to me. At least there is a limit to the possible evil he/the universe is capable of.

2. So, god was made by who then? Moran!

3. You have everything to gain by not taking the bible seriously. You may hit on a better solution than the one promoted in it.

Sorry, this was really addressed to the poster you answered! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Says the man who can't spell moron,.

[/ QUOTE ]

Newbie, hey! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ChrisV

03-07-2007, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Says the man who can't spell moron,.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joke reference:

http://www.dannemann.org.uk/images/morans.jpg

btw, I notice you ignored my post and instead quoted things you could ridicule.

Hoi Polloi

03-07-2007, 11:04 AM

I sorry you find it stupid. I was simply trying to make the point that these beliefs are largely dependent on perspective and assumptions. After all, what does it mean to say that belief in the christian god is intuitively sensible? That the very belief is self-justifying? That's just begging the question as far as I can see.

Let me try this another way:

[ QUOTE ]
This has been something that has pestered me lately and I just don't think it makes sense inuitively to not be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I'm not sure what you mean by "intuitively". Are you saying "I don't know why people don't believe in god."?

[ QUOTE ]
Even more important and what I'm truly getting at is why do people not believe?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, your key question is "Why don't people believe in god."?

[ QUOTE ]
I know there are satanics and other religions who do not believe in God but there are also people who do not have ANY FAITH whatsoever and my question is why?

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you're asking, then, why don't people believe in any kind of supreme being be it satan or the christian god? So you can understand believing in other gods but not believing in some supreme diety or super-human entity just does not make sense to you? Persumably because there's so much evidence for the presence of satan, or god, or supernatural forces in the world?

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this list, then, are some issues that for you are addressed sufficiently only by your belief in god or belief that there is some supernatural power.

Well, let me address each of these in reverse order.

#3. Why wouldn't you be [a believer in god]? You have nothing to gain buy [sic] not following the word of God as he set it out.

This point begs the question of belief by asserting that I can know prior to belief that the Bible ("following the word of God as he set it out") is without doubt the word of god. But, why should I believe that to be the case? The bible is a document that people say is the word of god but there is nothing intrinsic to the bible that would lead me to believe it is the word of some super natural entity. If I just stumbled across the bible on side walk or in a drawer in a hotel room; what is there about this physical object that can assure me that it is the inerrant word of a divine being? Believing the bible to be the word of god is always already wrapped up with belief in god such that the argument that I should believe in god because I have nothing to lose by following the rules laid down in the bible by an entity in which I do not believe in rather assumes what it sets out to prove, no?

As to the particular issue of whether or not I have something to lose by following these rules; are there not many, many rules in the bible (613 in the old testament alone) that most so-called believers have not even heard about let alone follow? For instance, adulterers should be stoned to death in the village square. Do you believe that? Do I have nothing to lose by following that rule? How about the rule that says I should sell all my possessions and follow Jesus. Do you follow this rule? Do I really have nothing to lose by following it?

#2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

Where does this question come from? Does one wander about wondering "who made the earth"? Is this a pressing question? If so, why exactly this question? Why the question of authorship? Or craftsmanship? Or a personhood ("who")? Who made the earth? It is sort of a weird question. I went to the lake to go fishing but I couldn't fish because I was stymied by this nagging question: who made the lake?

So, in short, the earth was not made by anyone. Not by man, nor beast, nor bird, nor god. Zeus didn't make it, Allah didn't make it, Jesus didn't make it, Yahweh didn't make it. It is unmade, uncrafted, as it were. It is no one's junior high science fair model.

#1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

One or more posters suggested that this was the only part of your post that made any sense but, for the life of me, I have no idea what you mean by psychological sense. Do you mean that the world must have a creator since everything we know was make by someone so to the world must have been made by someone? Man-made things were made by man. Everything else seems rather unmade to me.

Or are you simply saying that christians get a good deal. Follow Jesus and live forever in paradise; that you can't understand how anyone could reject such a great deal--it is literally unthinkable? This goes back to the whole belief business. If I tell you that I will give you eternal life on an ice cream planet if only you shave your head everyday of your life are you going to do it? Ice cream planet, eternal life, good deal!! Well, you'd probably ask yourself, why should I believe this guy is capable of fulfilling this promise? And so you would be in my shoes when someone like you says to me, why wouldn't you be a christian: eternal life, paradise, good deal!!!

So, there are my active reasons for not taking this great deal. On the passive side, it just doesn't come up. I don't wander about wondering whether there's a powerful all-knowing creator with a plan I should be devoting my life to. It just doesn't come up.

I hope that helps.

Hoi Polloi

03-07-2007, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

What in a nutshell you understand "following the word of God" entails? Love thy neighbor, do unto others, accept Jesus as your personal savior? Anything else?

CORed

03-07-2007, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. It doesn't make psychological sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
As opposed to Christianity, and other religions for that matter, which just plain don't make sense. Why do I need faith and what is it good for?

[ QUOTE ]
2. So the earth was made by whom then? ;- )

[/ QUOTE ]
Nobody. What's the problem?

[ QUOTE ]
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I see it, I have a lot to gain by living by what makes sense to me instead of living by a mishmash of writings from two thousand to several thousand years old which somebody arbitrarily selected from a whole lot of other writings and proclaimed, based on nothing, to be the word of God.

revots33

03-07-2007, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3. Why wouldn't you be? You have nothing to gain buy not following the word of God as he set it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

You convinced me. How do I sign up?

PuppyFridayYall

03-09-2007, 06:02 AM

Ok, I read all the posts carefully and I guess I have some explaining to do as most of you are a bit confused generally about my meaning here.

First, I'm not trying to be predjudiced. I think it is VERY important that people get along as a whole otherwise the world wouldn't function well as it should. But you people (the majority of you not everyone in this thread) are acting like a bunch of morons...including the idiot who couldn't spell moron. You don't have to be condescending to get your point across people. Let your words speak for themselves. I wasn't talking about why people aren't other religions. I'm wondering why EVERYONE isn't a Christian. Sure it is within your right to be whatever you want to be but I think the majority of you are a bit confused about what religion you are if you're not Christian. What I'm trying to say is you can be bhuddist, jewish, or something else but what I'm wondering is why more people aren't Christian themselves...even if they are these other religions initially. So this needs to be cleared up. Another thing that is bugging me are the reasons people are atheist. I have yet to see a concise answer that makes both psychological and spirtual sense but I'm sure you guys'll be working on that :- )

MidGe

03-09-2007, 06:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...including the idiot who couldn't spell moron...

[/ QUOTE ]
Young puppy, you are not learning fast, are you?

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing that is bugging me are the reasons people are atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason needed to be an atheist, there is nothing to justify, it is all natural. When it comes to positing a personal loving god, above all I would exclude the bible, which, when read without prejudices, describes an abhorrent god and actors in his game, resulting in intellectual positions so indefensible logically, that they better even the Kama Sutra. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Moran!

yukoncpa

03-09-2007, 06:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason needed to be an atheist, there is nothing to justify, it is all natural. When it comes to positing a personal loving god, above all I would exclude the bible, which, when read without prejudices, describes an abhorrent god and actors in his game, resulting in intellectual positions so indefensible logically, that they better even the Kama Sutra.

Moran!

[/ QUOTE ] I wonder how the young puppy thinks you are supposed to spell noone?

Hoi Polloi

03-09-2007, 09:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...you people...are...a bunch of morons... You don't have to be condescending to get your point across people.

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Pot meet kettle. Eye meet log.

Spare me the epithets, but what do you find so compelling about Christianity that you can't understand why other are not similarly compelled?

blutarski

03-10-2007, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

First, I'm not trying to be predjudiced... I'm wondering why EVERYONE isn't a Christian. Sure it is within your right to be whatever you want to be but I think the majority of you are a bit confused about what religion you are if you're not Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

So...just trolling then?

Here's the clear and concise of it:

1. Provide any testable proof that God exists. If you can't you have no basis saying he does.

2. If this was 2500 years ago, you'd be saying the same thing about Zeus. If you were born in India, you'd be saying the same thing about Krishna. If you were raised in a country that completely outlawed religion, you'd have no idea of the concept of God.

Dig?

kbinder

03-11-2007, 12:51 AM

nice trolling OP

venom007

03-11-2007, 05:16 PM

Religion is the dumbets thing mankind ever invented.....thread over.

metsandfinsfan

03-12-2007, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Says the man who can't spell moron,.

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lolz retart

metsandfinsfan

03-12-2007, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I read all the posts carefully and I guess I have some explaining to do as most of you are a bit confused generally about my meaning here.

First, I'm not trying to be predjudiced. I think it is VERY important that people get along as a whole otherwise the world wouldn't function well as it should. But you people (the majority of you not everyone in this thread) are acting like a bunch of morons...including the idiot who couldn't spell moron. You don't have to be condescending to get your point across people. Let your words speak for themselves. I wasn't talking about why people aren't other religions. I'm wondering why EVERYONE isn't a Christian. Sure it is within your right to be whatever you want to be but I think the majority of you are a bit confused about what religion you are if you're not Christian. What I'm trying to say is you can be bhuddist, jewish, or something else but what I'm wondering is why more people aren't Christian themselves...even if they are these other religions initially. So this needs to be cleared up. Another thing that is bugging me are the reasons people are atheist. I have yet to see a concise answer that makes both psychological and spirtual sense but I'm sure you guys'll be working on that :- )

[/ QUOTE ]

OP. I was brought up Jewish. When the Messiah comes, i was taught there will be peace and harmony on earth. Jesus came 2000 years ago. There is no peace and harmony on earth. Therefore, i do not believe Jesus is the Messiah.

Even if i did, Jesus was a Jew. He followed Jewish laws. His last supper was a passover seder. But Christians do not follow these Jewish laws. Christianity was started 200-300 years after Jesus's death.

So my question to you OP is even if i did think Jesus was the Messiah, why would i follow Christianity?