2nd Law of Thermodynamics

[phiphika1453]

How could the universe come together in an orderly fasion (ie. life) when this law states that entropy will always increase?

[madnak]

Because the "law" is limited in application. It's not absolute and irrevocable, it merely describes an observed tendency. Of course, there was more free energy at the beginning of the universe (what we see as "order" is actually entropic), but talking about how that original potential developed gets outside the idea of this universe (with its particular tendencies).

[BluffTHIS!]

Use the search function and you find several other "intelligent design" discussion threads.

[phiphika1453]

[ QUOTE ]
Use the search function and you find several other "intelligent design" discussion threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not interested in the intelligent design threads.

I was wondering if there was a scientific explanation as to how (or what forces) would cause a decrease in entropy when clearly the 2nd law states other wise.


It is also possible I am not TOTALLY understanding the law itself.

[BluffTHIS!]

phip,

Why do crystals form?

[phiphika1453]

i dont know. i feel this question is geared for a different point/reason, but I am not sure what you point you are trying to make me understand.

WHY they form is beyond me and probably everybody else, but how the get to that point by decreasing entropy is intriguing, to me at least. (I am correct in saying they decrease in entropy by forming, correct?)

[Metric]

It's all right for the entropy of a small piece of a system to decrease, as long as the total entropy of the whole thing is increasing. In the case of life, we would all die pretty quickly were it not for the sun, which definately causes the total entropy of the system to be increasing with time.

Yes, it would be a shocking discovery indeed to find a closed, macroscopic system in which to total entropy was decreasing in violation of the 2nd law. But it's never been observed.

[mjkidd]

OP -- Life violates the second law of thermodymics like me making ice does. When you put the water in the freezer, the entropy of the water decreases as it freezes. WTF man, in THIS house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! Oh, but wait a minute. To cool the water, we had to let Freon expand, which increases the Freon's entropy. And we had to burn some coal for the electricity, another increase in entropy.

Life's the same thing. We take in complex molecules and excrete simple ones. We heat our surroundings. We ain't violating the second law, dog.

[Neuge]

Entropy is not the same thing as disorder, at least not in the way most people use the word. It is disorder in the sense of the number of microscopic states that a system can take. Typical macroscopic interpretations of order or disorder, especially by lay persons, are inadequate in describing entropy.

[Fels krone]

If you look more closely at the history of the universe, or even the history of earth; you might see that things went from a state of high energy to lower energy differences.

Thats the way it feels to me; in that in order for life to form, the entropy needed to increase to create a more suitable environment.

[Duke]

Gravity.

[ChrisV]

phiphika,

This is what you're looking for (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html). I recommend TalkOrigins as a resource for any other questions about evolution.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it would be a shocking discovery indeed to find a closed, macroscopic system in which to total entropy was decreasing in violation of the 2nd law. But it's never been observed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it possible to come up with a realistic, logical model of such a system?