Favorite Bible verses...how do you know they actually said it?

[Insp. Clue!So?]

The recently concluded Jesus Seminar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

found that less than 82% of the sayings attributed to the figure known as "Jesus Christ" were likely uttered by him (note they did NOT establish that any such person really did speak the remaining 18%, but rather the 82% were clearly bogus).

With such a poor record of accuracy, how can you trust that your favorite saying was actually said by the character who is supposed to be saying it and not some medieval monk or ancient jester? And does it matter to you?

[whiskeytown]

[ QUOTE ]
The recently concluded Jesus Seminar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

found that less than 82% of the sayings attributed to the figure known as "Jesus Christ" were likely uttered by him (note they did NOT establish that any such person really did speak the remaining 18%, but rather the 82% were clearly bogus).

With such a poor record of accuracy, how can you trust that your favorite saying was actually said by the character who is supposed to be saying it and not some medieval monk or ancient jester? And does it matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it doesn't matter to me -

as Dostoevsky said in "The Possessed"

“Wasn't it you who said that even if it was proved to you mathematically that the Truth was outside Christ, you would prefer to remain with Christ outside the Truth?”

having said that, I doubt those of the Jesus Seminar have the slightest idea what happened 2K years ago and are not qualified to figure out what did and didn't happen -

if they were eyewitnesses, then fine - but otherwise they're just someone with another opinion - even me /images/graemlins/smile.gif - glad we can all have our own opinions and still be wrong - (whoops, there I go drifting into politics again)

the Jesus they describe is just a guy who said nice things - as far as I can tell, they're writing off the resurrection in that list of events -

fortunately, their opinions have no bearing on my faith.

rb

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The recently concluded Jesus Seminar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

found that less than 82% of the sayings attributed to the figure known as "Jesus Christ" were likely uttered by him (note they did NOT establish that any such person really did speak the remaining 18%, but rather the 82% were clearly bogus).

With such a poor record of accuracy, how can you trust that your favorite saying was actually said by the character who is supposed to be saying it and not some medieval monk or ancient jester? And does it matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it doesn't matter to me -

as Dostoevsky said in "The Possessed"

“Wasn't it you who said that even if it was proved to you mathematically that the Truth was outside Christ, you would prefer to remain with Christ outside the Truth?”

having said that, I doubt those of the Jesus Seminar have the slightest idea what happened 2K years ago and are not qualified to figure out what did and didn't happen -

if they were eyewitnesses, then fine - but otherwise they're just someone with another opinion - even me /images/graemlins/smile.gif - glad we can all have our own opinions and still be wrong - (whoops, there I go drifting into politics again)

the Jesus they describe is just a guy who said nice things - as far as I can tell, they're writing off the resurrection in that list of events -

fortunately, their opinions have no bearing on my faith.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

Why even bother arguing that their opinions are wrong when you don't care if they are right? What if they could prove it unequivocally? Would that matter to you? If not, then why claim this intellectual honesty that you've reviewed their data and support and found it wanting?

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
The recently concluded Jesus Seminar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

found that less than 82% of the sayings attributed to the figure known as "Jesus Christ" were likely uttered by him (note they did NOT establish that any such person really did speak the remaining 18%, but rather the 82% were clearly bogus).

With such a poor record of accuracy, how can you trust that your favorite saying was actually said by the character who is supposed to be saying it and not some medieval monk or ancient jester? And does it matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the "How can I" question is usually answered with "Cause I do", right? I think knowing, choosing or having faith in the bible is a personal choice and that's all that matters is how you view your personal choices. It's really not something I think can be debated successfully. Science and Math can be debated, God really can't cause you can't prove it true or false and there is no possible solution that anybody can forsee in doing so. So I really think all that matters is what you personally believe and how feel about that belief.

I do think that believing is a natural feeling that you can have for something,some choose to exercise that feeling.

What is provable or what isn't doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because if you don't think the bible is true because it can't be proved then there is probably no chance of you believing that it is. So why care if others do I guess is my point. I certainly don't care if people don't believe in God, although I do indulge in a discussion here and there, but that's more out of curiousity then investing feeling in there views.

BTW, nice post vhawk...
Mike

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The recently concluded Jesus Seminar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

found that less than 82% of the sayings attributed to the figure known as "Jesus Christ" were likely uttered by him (note they did NOT establish that any such person really did speak the remaining 18%, but rather the 82% were clearly bogus).

With such a poor record of accuracy, how can you trust that your favorite saying was actually said by the character who is supposed to be saying it and not some medieval monk or ancient jester? And does it matter to you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the "How can I" question is usually answered with "Cause I do", right? I think knowing, choosing or having faith in the bible is a personal choice and that's all that matters is how you view your personal choices. It's really not something I think can be debated successfully. Science and Math can be debated, God really can't cause you can't prove it true or false and there is no possible solution that anybody can forsee in doing so. So I really think all that matters is what you personally believe and how feel about that belief.

I do think that believing is a natural feeling that you can have for something,some choose to exercise that feeling.

What is provable or what isn't doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because if you don't think the bible is true because it can't be proved then there is probably no chance of you believing that it is. So why care if others do I guess is my point. I certainly don't care if people don't believe in God, although I do indulge in a discussion here and there, but that's more out of curiousity then investing feeling in there views.

BTW, nice post vhawk...
Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is making that point that you can prove that Jesus didn't say the things attributed to him. If thats the case, would it matter to you? Would you just choose to believe it anyway, like I choose to believe I won that $600 pot where I had AK and the other guy had KK and the board was AK743? I mean, I had 2 pair, I have faith that 2 pr is a pretty good hand.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]

I think he is making that point that you can prove that Jesus didn't say the things attributed to him. If thats the case, would it matter to you? Would you just choose to believe it anyway, like I choose to believe I won that $600 pot where I had AK and the other guy had KK and the board was AK743? I mean, I had 2 pair, I have faith that 2 pr is a pretty good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

God did his works through and spoke to the prophets(don't know exactly if he spoke to every single one), so it says in the bible. Which would mean it didn't have to just come from the mouth of God in the old testament or Jesus in the new.

Just cause I want 2 pair to be better, it doesnt matter.
According to the rules of that game in which you accepted when choosing to play say you lost, then you did. That is reasonable.

To say you should not believe in the Bible cause it cannot be proven as absolute fact isn't reasonable
because in the Bible it says you have to do things on faith and not just fact.

So it would be contradicting your beliefs if you thought that the only things possible are ones that are physically discovered, so would it be for scientist and philosophers if you think about it.

Do you really think someone can 100% prove these claims? Of course not. Why entertain that thought, cause you can? Just cause we can do something,
doesnt mean it's for our well being.

If you believe in science and math then things must be 100% to have an absolute belief. And to change someones belief in God, you should also bring something 100% or else why change.

Which is why I understand that people choose not to explore it. But as a science , math type person, shouldn't you explore all possiblities since anything
is possible? Wouldnt that be the scientific and philosophical way? Be an explorer, you live only once right? There might be something out there you need
to discover. You really have to explore all the possiblities out there with an open mind to make a true discovery to right?

The reason I speak of a belief in God as being different then a belief in science is because God created science, science doesnt rule God but God could make sceience not matter if that be his will. God>Science.

So I can dismiss there having to be scientific proof to believe in God who created everything scientific and he could also make it so you could not scientifically prove anything he doesn't want proven.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
To say you should not believe in the Bible cause it cannot be proven as absolute fact isn't reasonable

[/ QUOTE ]
Most atheists are not making the claim that you shouldnt believe in the Bible cause it cant be proven.

Most claim you shouldnt believe in the bible because it contradicts known facts. Also because it contradicts itself.

What do you think the proper response would be if the bible made some claim which was incontrovertibly false? If it told you the moon was invisible or something, yet you could see it. Do you think the right course of action would be to abandon your belief in the bible, or continue to hold contradictory beliefs?

[SitNHit]

If it said the moon was invisible, I probably would assume they used the word moon as a metaphor, maybe it would be soul. As in soul is invisible to truth. If the bible did say that, I guarantee you we would be using that as a figure of speech today just cause of it(random thought)

Take Care.

[bunny]

What I find curious is that you so strongly believe the bible is right. Nothing can be proven to a total skeptic, but things which are true can usually be substantiated in some way. I havent heard many good reasons to believe the bible is the word of god. The most common seems to be because it says it is. (I think this is especially true if you are willing to take a metaphorical view of the bible - since then even archeological evidence is not going to be relevant).

[SitNHit]

I think it makes sense to believe it's true. And that it doesn't make sense for a human not to. In terms of a poker player, it's +EV. In terms of logic, it just seems right. In terms of my personal feelings, I have felt a feeling so strong about it that I cannot have a scientific, mathematical, human, or universal reason not to follow that feeling.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of logic, it just seems right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on this? If it's logic is it possible to break it down into logical steps? (Again, not a proof, just an explanation of what it is that logically compels you to accept the bible as true).

[ QUOTE ]
In terms of my personal feelings, I have felt a feeling so strong about it that I cannot have a scientific, mathematical, human, or universal reason not to follow that feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]
I expect this is the same reason I had for believing in God. In my opinion, it's the only rational grounds for belief (though I think it is slender). Having said that, I think it's important to explore other possibilities for what may have caused the feeling.

[SitNHit]

Logically, and may I preface this that I think I see things very clear and I make it a point in my life to not lie to myself just cause it may make life easier at that moment.

I really think that there being an Adam and Eve, prophets of god who experienced various moral lessons and observed others, Plan of Salvation by Jesus Christ, Restoration of the Gosepl through Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ, and all the stuff inbetween is so clearly the most likely scenario and one day I got that feeling that it definatley was that I can't deny.

You may not like this but the greatest achievment the devil ever had was making people believe he doesn't exist and have influence on there decisions to steer away at all costs from believe in his enemy.

And you know what his second greatest feat is? Making you believe the above is the most absurd thing you ever heard.

And still some read this, I'm the one who's brainwashed or lying to myself or nuts but with all this out there I just don't see how you can just brush it aside cause of math and science and a few smart peoples opinions throughout history.

Call me crazy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Logically, and may I preface this that I think I see things very clear and I make it a point in my life to not lie to myself just cause it may make life easier at that moment.

I really think that there being an Adam and Eve, prophets of god who experienced various moral lessons and observed others, Plan of Salvation by Jesus Christ, Restoration of the Gosepl through Joseph Smith by Jesus Christ, and all the stuff inbetween is so clearly the most likely scenario and one day I got that feeling that it definatley was that I can't deny.

You may not like this but the greatest achievment the devil ever had was making people believe he doesn't exist and have influence on there decisions to steer away at all costs from believe in his enemy.

And you know what his second greatest feat is? Making you believe the above is the most absurd thing you ever heard.

And still some read this, I'm the one who's brainwashed or lying to myself or nuts but with all this out there I just don't see how you can just brush it aside cause of math and science and a few smart peoples opinions throughout history.

Call me crazy /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt call you crazy, but I also wouldnt call the above a logical argument. It is more a restatement of your firm belief (which I reiterate, I think is a perfectly fine way of grounding your faith, just not very persuasive to a skeptic).

By logic, I meant something like

"These are some things which are true - Fact A, Fact B, Fact C, etc
A logical consequence of these being true is that God exists" (together with some sort of argument showing how the facts lead to the conclusion). The advantage of doing this is it makes it clear what prior assumptions one's conclusions rest on.

I would also point out that the above process is not "atheistic" - many theologians have put a lot of effort into trying to demonstrate the rationality of a belief in God, as have many of the Christian posters on this forum. Asking for a logical argument is not an atheist tactic it's more "that's how we do things around here".

In your case, it seems that "The bible is true" is taken as a fact. Or the "I have a strong belief in God for which I can conceive of no possible alternative explanation" is taken as fact. If this is the case, it may indeed make sense to you to believe in God, but that doesnt imply that it is a logically derived conclusion.

[SitNHit]

I understand that it would be great if there were facts for all things, but the whole point of the bible is faith. Who will choose to exercise that choice and will reconize the bible as truth. That's why we got a whole life man, and those who don't now, believe will have a chance in heaven so don't panic and think you have to articially create a belief, but once you know, trust me, you won't deny it and know exactly what I mean, so if that happens, congrats.

I know it seems like a sacrafice from your end, but when you get that feeling it changes your view on things.

[iggymcfly]

Hey, SitNHit, would you mind responding to a few things. I'm not trolling here, I'd honestly like your take on them.

1. The creation story.
Where do you think it came from. The idea that creating one planet (the earth) took longer than creating the whole rest of the universe combined. Would you argue that this was clearly people guessing how the earth came about who didn't have modern science? If you believe that they were just making a story here (which didn't really have a moral, so I don't see how it could be a metaphor), then what aspersions does that cast on the rest of the bible?

2. The fact that Judaism is completely devoid of the Christian concept of hell.
Hell in the Christian sense is pretty much unmentioned in the Old Testament. It was thought that God helped his believers during their time on earth, but the idea that God sent the good to heaven and the evil to hell was not mentioned until the New Testament. If the Bible was real, wouldn't God have made this known to his followers long ago. Or do you agree that this concept was only constructed around the time of Jesus.

3. The concept of faith as a virtue
How can believing everything that your told possibly be an important virtue. If someone honestly doesn't believe in the Christian god, why should this be held against them. Why would a just god create a person and then damn them to an eternity in hell when they don't figure out the answer to a riddle. Isn't the only conceivable reason for faith to be considered a virtue that the people saying it is a virtue are trying to control others and make them fall in line with their story.

If you would honestly consider each of these questions and not just ignore their substance and give a terse reply that the Bible feels right, I'd appreciate it.