Autism

[El Diablo]

I don't know much about autism, but I've seen autistic people and when they are swaying and making random grunts and noises ("low functioning autistics"), while I realize they are very different than retarded people my general impression is not that they are engaged in any really deep thought or anything. This video and story really gave me a whole new view of this stuff. Would be interested in any stories you guys have about autistic people you know.

YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnylM1hI2jc) (Make sure you keep watching until the "translation" part starts at least)

CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/02/21/autism.amanda/index.html) (the second video link "Watch Amanda communicate in her own way" profile by Sanjay Gupta and the blog post by her are especially interesting)

[cobrakai111]

I have spent several years volunteering, working and lobbying at the Massachusetts State House for people with special needs and mental health problems. Autism being one of the bigger issues. Some of the most amazing people (and difficult work) I have ever encountered.

Maybe this belongs in the documentry thread but I would really recommend the movie "How's Your News?" It was produced by South Park's own Parker and Stone and one of the people in the film was the basis for TIMMY!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0298917/
A Documentary chronicling the travels of a team of reporters and crew across America in a hand painted RV. Each of the reporters have a disability ranging from Down's Syndrome to spastic cerebal palsy and their own style for gathering news. The basic approach is "man on the street" reporting and the interactions are sometimes hysterical, sometimes confusing but always honest.

[octopi]

I just watched the Amanda thing last night. Previous to that, CNN ran a documentary on another young lady who was thought to be severely retarded until she learned how to communicate at the age of 13. I think it was called "Autism is a World". She was then proved to be highly intelligent and is now attending college, although she sometimes has to wear a helmet to prevent injury from when she involuntarily hits herself.

I think the documentary tagline says it well: "When you meet her, she does not make eye contact. She obsessively attacks your buttons, endlessly stands at the faucet and watches water pour over her hand. You would not approach this person." Anyhow, Sue Rubin, who the documentary is about, gives a really unique look into the world of autistic people (or those we tend to 'ignore') and how it makes them feel. I watch it whenever I see it on CNN.

Interesting to note, I think I've met more people with Asperger's Syndrome (a variety of autism) via message boards than any other way. Correlation?

[gumpzilla]

Tangentially related, but my sister works as a teaching aide for a 10 year old autistic kid. She's told some pretty funny stories about him. He apparently likes to go into the bathroom and take off all his clothes. He is also VERY upset about the five pubic hairs he has, repeatedly mentioning that "needs to get rid of these hairs. I'm an alien." He also told my sister that he no longer liked her and wasn't going to do what she said:

"Why's that, Cam?"
"Well, I like girls, and I like Yugioh cards. You won't let me play with my Yugioh cards, and you won't let me touch the girls."
"Hmmm. That's too bad, Cam. I think I'm going to have to keep you in during recess."
"Oh. I like recess. I guess I'll listen to you."

One thing that I think I must have picked up from The curious incident . . . is that autistic people frequently don't lie. Apparently Cam does, though he'll usually come clean if you ask him a couple of times, saying "Okay, you got me!"

[cobrakai111]

Asperger's is one of the more prevelant forms and it also is one of the most functional forms. That's probably part of the reason.

[bisonbison]

Thanks ElD. Really interesting.

[[censored]]

I've recently read a couple of articles on Autism in National Geographic and I believe Discovery Magazine. It's really alarming to see the unexplained growth in Autism and actually makes me weary of having children.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4386/lineplotphpfr1.png

here is a USA today article, obv not as good as the ones found in more in depth publications



Link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-07-06-autism_x.htm)

Here is a movie about Autism made by Don Imus who along with his wife has been very active in trying to get more funds directed towards research

Link (http://www.autismspeaks.org/sponsoredevents/autism_every_day.php)

[jba]

[censored]

lots of stuff I've read/heard from people who seem to know what they're talking about indicate that the increase in diagnosed cases aren't necessarily that more people have it, but more that docs are getting better at diagnosing it. Also there are more conditions/symptoms that are now included under the "autism" umbrella (for example, aspergers was not considered or recognized as autism until sometime in the 90s).

[7ontheline]

I know this is kind of weak of me to make the following claims without the links to back it up, but from what I understand, a significant part of the rise in autism are two things:

1) Better recognition of autistic children, instead of calling them mentally retarded

2) Even more importantly, a broadening of the definition of autism within studies. Clearly this is going to raise the incidence of this disorder, without necessarily indicating a true increase.

Edit: Curse you, jba.

Anyway. . .

There is sadly some secondary gain associated with the diagnosis of autism. Schools get more money for aid if their students have formal diagnoses. Parents get money from the government for health care if their chilfren are autistic. It's sad and cynical, but true.

[skunkworks]

A couple of years back there was a lot of controversy about whether children's vaccines were causing a rise in autism cases. The hypothesis was that one of the additives to these vaccines contained mercury and might be causing it. link (http://specialchildren.about.com/od/autismandvaccines/i/vaccines_2.htm)

[Jack of Arcades]

my nephew is very highly autistic and can't speak, but he communicates with a machine. he pushes picture buttons and he can say what he's hungry for, etc.

[El Diablo]

Jack,

See, a guy like that, in the past I probably would think that he is less mentally capable than normal people and feel like he is struggling mentally to express some basic things. After seeing this video, it was the first time that I felt like someone like your nephew could have far more complex thought processes going on than I previously would have imagined.

[Duke]

I read this from slashdot the other day:
Possible key to autism. (http://www.nj.com/starledger/stories/index.ssf?/base/news-11/117177694297300.xml&coll=1)

I figure it might be applicable and interesting. Apparently it could have something to do with an inability to metabolize fatty acids, if I remember correctly.

[tacklebox]

There is a wide spectrum for autism. My second daughter has been diagnosed with autism. It is not severe, but makes life more difficult than it should.

It is hard for her to relate and socialize with children her age (2nd grade), but she is advanced academically, 3 grade levels ahead in spelling, math and writing. It is amazing how she can remember things like b-days and other events.

Right now we feel that it does have something to do with the mercury in vaccines. The chemicals in the human brain are slightly different for all of us. A chemical being introduced can effect some children the way it should, but not others. Kind of like doing a drug such as LSD, the drug effects people in different ways, and a bad dose can mess up your mind.

I am thankful that with the advances in medicine that autism and other illnesses can be detected and treated. I hope future generations will not need to worry about them.

[mmbt0ne]

Funny you should post this, I watched "The Real Rainman" on Discovery Science the other day. It's a documentary about Kim Peek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek) who was the inspiration for Dustin Hoffman's character in Rainman.

I was absolutely in awe of his abilities, and how he seemed to be living a fairly normal life considering how severe his autism is.

[JaredL]

diablito,

My host family in Sevilla had an autistic son. He was 26 at the time and lived at home. I was actually somewhat annoyed that the program I was in didn't tell me this because I would have liked to have read up on it. I guess they don't because they don't want people to try to change after finding out. He was at neither extreme - nobody would think he wasn't autistic but he was fully responsive when you interacted with him.

He pretty much spent all day walking around. When he did he constantly was rocking back and forth shifting his weight from his front foot to his back foot. He pretty much always was playing with something in his hands. The most common would be something like a paper clip attacked to a pencil. He would often look at it and twirl it back and forth in his left hand, usually between the first and second fingers but sometimes between his thumb and first finger, so that it touched his finger and thumb in his right hand, if you can picture that. On occasion I would get Kinder eggs, which are chocolate eggs with a small toy on the inside. He would often just take the toys right off of my desk and twirl those in his fingers instead of his pencil-paper clip combo.

When you talked to him he would never look at you. I'm pretty sure that this even includes his mother, father and grandmother who all lived in the house. While he sometimes would look at me, every time I looked back at him he would look away, sort of like when you get caught staring at a chick or something like that. He would however respond and had a good memory. I feel a bit bad, but a couple times to satisfy my curiosity I would have a conversation where I would ask him a bunch of random things like when his siblings' birthdays were and other things like that. He always nailed them spot on. I don't know if he could do crazy arithmetic savant stuff, but I doubt it.

One problem with some autistics apparently is that they don't like to be touched. It was no problem with him as he had no problem with me patting him on the shoulder. I don't think I ever gave him a hug but his parents and grandmother did as well as the standard two-kisses thing they do in Spain.

He had a huge appetite. When we had meals, he would pretty much always scarf it and his mom was constantly telling him he needed to slow down when he ate and not eat so much. He would also take stuff off of the table even after his mom had told him not to. Based on his expressions, he thought he was being clever and sneaky and getting away with it even though that was obviously never the case.

As far as being functional, he could eat, go to the bathroom, shower and dress himself with no problems. I think there is no chance in hell that he could have cooked himself any sort of meal and I certainly wouldn't trust him around a stove by himself or with a knife. The most dangerous thing about the knife is that he would probably twirl it as described above and that would be dangerous.

I don't have a huge amount of experience with people with mental retardation or any other such disability. Really, my host brother is the only person of this type with whom I've frequently interacted. However, I would say that it's not in the same dimension as mental retardation. I think autistics like him are more mentally capable than the mentally retarded but they are deficient in other ways like communication, making a connection, emotions and so forth.

Jared

[Zeno]

Here is a very good on Autism written by an autisic woman that managed to enter 'our world'. I recommend this book highly to anyone interested in Autism: Thinking in Pictures (http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Pictures-Expanded-Life-Autism/dp/0307275655/sr=8-1/qid=1172201865/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-6985677-5026834?ie=UTF8&s=books)

Book Description

Temple Grandin, Ph.D., is a gifted animal scientist who has designed one third of all the livestock-handling facilities in the United States. She also lectures widely on autism—because Temple Grandin is autistic, a woman who thinks, feels, and experiences the world in ways that are incomprehensible to the rest of us.

In this unprecedented book, Grandin delivers a report from the country of autism. Writing from the dual perspectives of a scientist and an autistic person, she tells us how that country is experienced by its inhabitants and how she managed to breach its boundaries to function in the outside world. What emerges in Thinking in Pictures is the document of an extraordinary human being, one who, in gracefully and lucidly bridging the gulf between her condition and our own, sheds light on the riddle of our common identity.

__________________________________________________ _____

I read this book a number of years ago partially because I have two autistic nieces, one quite sever, one less so.

There are patterns that emerge in observing some autistic people and Jared mentions some in his very good post. My severely autistic niece cannot live in society or function on her own and does not speak at all. She has certain movements and patterns of behavior that are repetitious and puzzling to us normal functioning adults. One example is that she will jump up and down while failing her arms and hands and laughing and smiling and make a continual "uh-uh-uh" noise. Then she suddenly stops. Other movements are a continual picking of her clothes or clothes of others or the repetitive slapping of her fingers against her forearm. These are just a few examples. She can function as far as eating, dressing and simple domestic activities but spends most of her time on a couch lying down and observing. There are probably emotional problems that simply stem from the fact that she cannot interact with other people around her, she realizes this and has given up to live in her own world trapped within the sensory perceptions that she can understand and relate to. At least this is my hypothesis.

My other autistic niece can function in the world but not without help. She can do some signs and can speak some words, doing some reading and arithmetic, and she can obviously understand a great deal of language but can’t articulate or communicate much on her own. Again, I think this adds to frustration and emotional unbalance and leads her to admonishing herself to "Calm, Calm” - she tells herself out loud. She is a very good at kitchen duties and worked in a school kitchen for a time. She lives in a comfortable routine and does many jigsaw puzzles, which she is extortionately good at. Again, I think this helps her deal with a world that she can’t intact with on a normal basis. Her nickname is Pip. She also has patterns of things she does but to much less of an extent than her sister and in ways that are more 'understandable'. She has to eat her food in a certain way and always has it segeragated on her plate in a fashion that seems obsessive.


Autism is partially linked, I think, to brain chemistry and sensory input into the brain and the ability to make sense and order of the sensory input. The true cause(s) of autism are still unknown at this point. There are certainly some websites that deal with this puzzling phenomenon.

-Zeno

[crazy canuck]

Here is an interesting video on Temple Grandin (1 hr long):

link (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1063749803579204077&q=documentary)

Also another fascinating one on Steven Wiltshire (5 mints):

Stephen Wiltshire: The Human Camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8YXZTlwTAU)

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
Asperger's is one of the more prevelant forms and it also is one of the most functional forms. That's probably part of the reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

My twelve year old son has Asperger's, and in general you are correct that it is one of the mildest of the Autism spectrum of disorders. People with Asperger's all share an extreme shyness that would make interacting on the computer easier than in person.

One interesting characteristic about people with Asperger's is that they tend to have areas of *extreme* interest. I saw a documentary one time where a boy (and most people with Asperger's are male) was into home appliances. My son? Ask him about movie ratings - he can tell you the rating for almost any major movie released in the past few years, along with the details for why it got that rating. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]

Right now we feel that it does have something to do with the mercury in vaccines. The chemicals in the human brain are slightly different for all of us. A chemical being introduced can effect some children the way it should, but not others. Kind of like doing a drug such as LSD, the drug effects people in different ways, and a bad dose can mess up your mind.

I am thankful that with the advances in medicine that autism and other illnesses can be detected and treated. I hope future generations will not need to worry about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

There have been some extensive studies, and no link has been demonstrated between vaccines and autism.

Also, there really is no treatment for Autism. There are therapies, such as social skills classes for children with Asperger's that can provide some degree of help, but nothing that leads to a "cure".

[Myrtle]

El D……

My oldest son was diagnosed as autistic in 1972 as a 4 year old child by, at the time, two of the supposed foremost authorities on autism, Children’s Hospital in Boston, and the Hitchcock Center at Dartmouth College in NH.

They both recommended that he be institutionalized. My responses to them would be edited by the censor software here.

We searched for alternative treatment and found an experimental behavioral modification therapy program in which we enrolled him. Within 8 weeks a child who was non-verbal, not toilet trained, head-banging & swaying and constantly running away was speaking full sentences, was using the bathroom, was no longer throwing temper tantrums or running away. It was a truly amazing transformation; however it was just the beginning of an incredibly painful and difficult journey for him, and all of us who love him.

A book could be written about his journey, but I won’t bore anyone with all the details other than state that it was punctuated with episodes of psychotic breaks, hospitalization, self-mutilation and alcoholism as we enrolled him in special education classes in an attempt to “mainstream” him.

I will note to all that you have never seen true cruelty until you experienced how a child such as this can be taunted, humiliated and made fun of by supposed well-intentioned adults, but especially by his own contemporaries.

Along the way he developed some idiot-savant type qualities. Give him a list of 6 digit numbers and ask him to add them up, and he’d give you the answer almost before you had a chance to ask him. He also had an ability to handle bees & wasps without ever getting bitten that was amazing; it was almost as if he could actually communicate with them.

He learned to read & write, but developing social skills was painfully slow and difficult for him.

He studied for 5 years to get his drivers license. He passed the test without a single error and can quote the rules of the road to you verbatim. He works part time, but has difficulty in holding any job for a period of time. He owns his own car and pays his own way. He reads a newspaper every day, and is much more familiar with both local and national issues than most people I know.

If you saw him walking down the street, you could easily mistake him for a professional wrestler; 6’1” 240 lbs., crew-cut with a goatee. Many would view him as physically intimidating, but he is a truly gentle man, and his smile and laugh reflects that fact.

He will turn 39 this summer, and if you were to meet him today, it would take you a while to see that he is “different”. He has never been able to develop the complex conceptual and rationalization skills that most adults possess, but he appears to have the ability to see through issues and get right to the heart of any matter, whether it be talking about the war in Iraq and crime in the streets.

When I think back to the dark days of his early childhood, it is amazing that he has come as far as he has. He did not graduate from high school because of his affliction, but he still, to this day, goes to GED classes so that he can one day get his diploma.

He has faced so many challenges and obstacles in his life, and he just keeps working his way through them with stoic determination.

Every great once in a while, he will share with us one of his memories from the “dark days”, almost as if he’s trying to give us a clue as to what it was really like for him to make that journey.

Life has been challenging for my son. People talk all the time about what courage and bravery is.

He is truly one of the most courageous men that I have ever known.

[jba]

^^^^

great post, thanks

[Roan]

I'm a 4th year medical student and although I'm not going into child psych, I always thought that autism was one of the most interesting topics in medicine. It really sits at this fascinating nexus of scientific, emotional, and societal issues.

During my 3rd year, I worked with an autism expert for a few days and learned a lot of neat stuff.

1) Incidence:
The diagnosis of autism is a tricky phenomenon because unlike other medical illnesses there are much fewer "rules" to follow in the diagnosis. A bone is either broken or it's not, autism is not so easy to categorize. Also, these diagnosis are trying to be made in 1/2/3 year olds. The spectrum of what is normal behavior in a kid that age is incredibly wide.

But the most interesting fact was that if you were to add together the percentage of kids over the last 20 years that have been diagnosed with autism to the percentage that have been diagnosed with mental retardation (MR) that percentage has remained constant. What has changed is the individual percentages of autism vs. MR. This is amazing because it suggests that the rise in incidence of autism is at least in part a function of a shift in diagnostic preferences. This makes sense, as there are many pressures on practitioners - 20 years ago there was no social support for a kid with autism and thus an MR diagnosis would at least offer some support in terms of school help etc.

2) Vaccines:
He was unaware of any link between autism and vaccines. At all.

3) But the part I thought was most interesting was a study where they described several "life situations" to autistic folks and "normal" people and asked them for their responses. I'll paraphrase, but the gist is there. For instance:

You are getting on an elevator in a building. The door closes and the guy next to you says "beautiful day huh?"

A- Thats unusual, the elevator door is closed, I can't comment on the weather right now.

NML - Normal Small talk.

You are in a park and there is a young mom with 2 young kids, one of whom is in a stroller. She and the other kid are playing with a ball a little ways away from the stroller. The kid in the stroller starts crying, but the mom can't here the kid as she is too far away. What do you do?

A-Pick up the kid and comfort it, I've seen this done before and thats what the mom would want.

NML - Tell the mom her kid is crying.

Oversimplified for sure, but an interesting insight into their views on social norms and appropriate behavior etc.

4) I would also recommend The Curious Incident. But more for the effect on his family than because I think the kid is an extremely accurate portrayal of autism.

[Mermade]

I remember watching a documentary years and years ago (maybe 20+ years back) about the purported technique of assisting severly autistic individuals to communicate by steadying their hands at a computer keyboard. I remember some of the individuals wrote heart-wrenching poems, some were even published. They wrote very sophisticated letters expressing emotion towards their parents. The first time parents had heard "I love you," but then too there started this wave of sexual abuse allegations. The autistic children started accusing various individuals of improper sexual contact, sometimes giving quite graphic descriptions.

In the end, it was discovered that the assistants, the adults who were steadying the hand of the autistic individuals were subconsciously leading the hand. In tests where the assistant was not allowed to view the screen, the autistic individuals weren't able to construct comprehensible words or sentences. It was incredibly sad, and I believe spoke more about the general human psyche than anything else. So odd to see what the assistants subconsciously were communicating.

[Roan]

The guy I worked with saw this kid as a patient when he was 3 and 4 and still has some of his doodles from way back when.

Jonathan Lerman (http://www.ksartonline.com/jl.html)

considering how autistism often results in considerable emotional difficulties, i think it's amazing how his art reflects feelings so well

[fifield]

I have a female cousin in her 20s who's autistic. She constantly gets made fun of at our family reunions and is brought up as a freak and so weird fairly regularly when my family's talking about theirs. Terrible, I know.

She never makes eye contact and freaks out if she can't 'go jump' - most reunions she spends half the day jumping on a trampoline - and she used to ask for people's phone numbers, and would remember people by it even years later. Several funny stories from her doing this.

But most recently, she's been into birthdays. Her parents say she's memorized 'in the thousands' of people's birthdays and that's her socialization with people, she'll ask your birthday, tell you everyone she knows who has that same birthday, and move on. Like it was nothing.

Autism must suck, but certain aspects of it like this fascinate me.

[MoistToes]

Trying to understand people, especially those that are different and have challenges communicating with the general population, is a worthy and noble goal.

Try to imagine attempting to talk and the words simply not coming out and then trying to write the words down and you hand over the paper to someone and have them not be able to read it. Imagine your whole life is like that. Not only may you not be able to say what you like but it might come out wrong when you attempt it. Your favorite color may be blue but the word "Yellow" may come out of your mouth.

It is impossible to fathom what some people endure...

Many times I've been and seen people shrink away from individuals with Autism or sneer, be afraid, etc...

Helping people become aware of understanding other people with unique challenges was a great idea for a post El Diablo.

Thank you.

[Voltaire]

Thanks Myrtle. Just a great post.

[ozyman]

[ QUOTE ]
I've recently read a couple of articles on Autism in National Geographic and I believe Discovery Magazine. It's really alarming to see the unexplained growth in Autism and actually makes me weary of having children.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4386/lineplotphpfr1.png

here is a USA today article, obv not as good as the ones found in more in depth publications



Link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-07-06-autism_x.htm)

Here is a movie about Autism made by Don Imus who along with his wife has been very active in trying to get more funds directed towards research

Link (http://www.autismspeaks.org/sponsoredevents/autism_every_day.php)

[/ QUOTE ]

Time Magazine had an article earlier this year on the rise of autism and a book about it called
"In Unstrange Minds: Remapping the World of Autism" by Roy Richard Grinker. It gave some pretty good background on the increase in the diagnosis.
Is the Autism Epidemic a Myth? (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1576829,00.html)

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Asperger's is one of the more prevelant forms and it also is one of the most functional forms. That's probably part of the reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

My main experience with autism is through Asperger's as well. My wife's cousin has it.

I had never heard of it when I first met him. I guess when he was little, they first made the diagnosis after he wouldn't stop acting out in school. When he was in preschool, he would try to force the teacher to stop reading a book if it was one that he had heard before. Basically, after the first word once he recognized it he would freak out - he basically had already stored that knowledge in his head and was ready for something else. Which of course is different than most children, who want to hear the same story over and over.

At most family gatherings he generally will be reading a book, or pacing around somewhere in the house by himself. Doesn't interact much with the other cousins at all, and took a long time to warm up to me, although we'll chat now about things like comic books, which he's really into.

For school he mostly went to special education schools, but in the past couple of years he's recently started attending the public high school that he brothers attend, and he goes to regular classes. His dad said that the main challenge in the regular classes has been teaching him to not blurt out the answers to the teacher's questions - he knows all of them and has a hard time letting others respond first. Especially in math and science classes, where he works at a college level.

Socially he still has challenges, but his parents say that attending the public high school has been a big boost to his confidence a bit. Apparently he absolutely won't let either of his parents do any clothes shopping for him - so they send him out with his brothers to shop, because he'll buy anything that they deem as cool. They said that's helped him to fit in with the high school crowd.

Overall he's a really fascinating kid, and I'm really interested to see what he does when he finishes high school. His parents fully expect that he'll live with them for the rest of his life, and I don't think they'd want it any other way.

[Roan]

Autism Discussion on NPR right now (Friday Afternoon)

[gonores]

I'm real glad this was posted. I was actually recently diagnosed with Asperger's, and it helped me understand why there always has been a chasm between the way I see other people and the way other people see me. There's a lot of good stuff in this thread already, and I hope even more can come out of it...the more people know about autism and its many forms, the better.

I consider myself to have a mild case of Asperger's, and I don't really think I can fully relate to the stereotypical "autistic" person. That being said, I'll throw some things in here that apply to me and my case that haven't been mentioned in the thread, and I'll try to write some more after I get back for the day.

Appropriateness - One of my constant struggles has been understanding what can and cannot be said or discussed. ElD, you might remember the JA Sucker thread I made a year ago? Perfect example. I've realized I can say/write very insulting things while communicating with the same emotion that I would have reading a list of ingredients off a can of soda.

Communication - Vocabulary and sentence structure is a source of constant frustration for me. A post of this size, written while sober, takes me half an hour to write. A recent gravitation toward sobriety for me has led me to almost stop writing completely.

Empathy - I am not able to "feel" what other people are feeling. I have learned how to go through the motions to act sad/angry/empathetic toward others when they are in a period of stress/sadness, but I have extreme difficulty feeling these feelings unless the source of stress for that person is also a source of stress for me. For instance, I can't truly cry/feel bad at a funeral unless the departed was playing an important role in my life when he passed on.

Touching - Can't stand it, outside of contact with my extremities. I've learned to supress my fear/anger when people do touch me, but it certainly is still there.

OK....hopefully more later

[siralos]

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of years back there was a lot of controversy about whether children's vaccines were causing a rise in autism cases. The hypothesis was that one of the additives to these vaccines contained mercury and might be causing it. link (http://specialchildren.about.com/od/autismandvaccines/i/vaccines_2.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was later found to be completly untrue. The study in question was poorly made and not very scientific. Recent studies show no correlation between autism and vaccinations.

[El Diablo]

Myrtle: Wow, sounds like you and your son have a lot to be proud of, congratulations. I'd be interested in reading more, especially about his level/manner of verbal communication.

gonores: Fascinating stuff. Would love to hear more about more specific incidents/actions that seem standard to you but odd to others. Somewhat interesting that alcohol, a "social lubricant" for many, apparently has some degree of that impact on your communication ability.

[bet2win]

I'm sure I have a mild case of aspergers as well I haven't been diagnosed or anything and I cant really be bothered. Although it might be an idea in the future so I have a card to hold up as an excuse for being socially inept.

I'm not social at all. I have been a loner for many years not because nobody liked me I was just that way inclined. Social activities just never really interested me.

I can talk to people fine if I know them but strangers or people I'm not close to I constantly avoid. I cant sit around and chat to people for long periods of time, I just feel really awkward.

I struggle with small talk and greetings.

It is hard for me to maintain eye contact with people without feeling weird.

I show no empathy either, if people died in a bombing or something I'm like well that is just bad luck. A common line i use is "people die everyday, what's the difference"

I have slightly obsessive tendencies. My focus will be on something 100% and then 0% I'm not very good at doing multiple things. Since I play poker for a living I can't play video games because I fear an addiction that would result in me not playing poker.

I'm big on routine and if my routine gets messed up then chaos ensues. I'll typically eat the same foods for months until going off them and onto something else.

My mum told me last year that I had talking difficulties when I was very young and had to see a specialist but I got over it ok.

I think it is difficult for people with mild aspergers because you can function in society ok and you seem normal for the most part but something just isn't quite right.

I really should get diagnosed, it'll probably help me socially (my confidence at least) if I can say that to explain the way I am. Just that getting things done is a major obstacle for me.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
Myrtle: Wow, sounds like you and your son have a lot to be proud of, congratulations. I'd be interested in reading more, especially about his level/manner of verbal communication.

gonores: Fascinating stuff. Would love to hear more about more specific incidents/actions that seem standard to you but odd to others. Somewhat interesting that alcohol, a "social lubricant" for many, apparently has some degree of that impact on your communication ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

El D,

Thanks for you sentiments, and, yes I am incredibly proud of him. If you were to ask him how he feels about himself, I think he would be pretty humble about it as he sees his situation (both strengths & shortcomings) in a rather matter-of-fact fashion.

Let’s say that you were having a conversation with him for the first time……..

He would be friendly and cordial, but in a gruff kind of manner. As I said earlier, he is physically a rather imposing man, and simply his appearance, coupled with a very slight speech impediment and a somewhat imperfect speech meter, might intimidate/put some folks off.

He has a ‘big’, deep voice….a big laugh….and wears his heart on his sleeve. He is very emotive and his facial expressions reflect clearly how he feels about whatever you are talking about.

He answers direct questions directly, in an almost guile-less manner.

Depending upon the subject of the conversation that you were having, you might or might not have any sense that he is a man with some level of cognitive disability.

For example…talk to him about cars. Which ones are good, which he likes and why, and you would end up having what you would judge to be a ‘normal’ conversation between two adults.

Ask his opinion on a wide variety of subjects and some of the responses will be cogent and appropriately responsive……some will not, almost in a disconnected sense.

Ask him to perform a task, and he’ll generally try to do what you ask of him. If he has performed it once, more than likely he’ll be able to perform it flawlessly again.

New things confuse him. For example, last year we built a dry stone wall and slate patio together. I wanted to teach him some of the skills of setting stone, so I would explain to him what I was doing, as I was doing it. I then asked him to do the same thing. Sometimes he could…..sometimes he got it all wrong. When he would get it wrong, all I had to do was show him again the steps that I had taken, and take them one at a time, only this time allow him to do each step at his own pace. There would be a point of time where he would say…. “OK, I get it now” and would then explain to me what he had been doing wrong, almost as if he wanted to be sure that I understood why he hadn’t gotten it the first time.

Overall, if you met him for the first time at a bar, chatted with him for a while, and had to take a guess at “who this guy is?”, you’d probably come away thinking……Probably a construction worker, not a rocket scientist but a hell of a nice guy once you got talking to him.

Hope that helps.....

Myrt

[El Diablo]

M,

Great description. I wonder what percentage of people like him never are given a chance with a good environment to develop in.

[tsearcher]

I happened to be talking to a Family Doctor in a social setting recently, and the topic of increased diagnosis of autism came up.

He mentioned the obvious, that the definition has broadened, and better diagnosis as a whole. But he also had one more interesting theory. He claimed that parents would rather have their children diagnosed as autistic than mentally retarded (sorry I am not sure of the correct term). And that doctors would often fudge the diagnosis to make the parents happy.

I don't think he had anything to back up those statements, and he had had a couple of drinks. So it's probably a baseless statement. But still, it's something to think about.

[im a model]

Post deleted by El Diablo

[Clayton]

I don't mean to detour the thread at all, but the first thing that came to mind regarding autism revolved around the "savant" kind of autism that has fascinated me in some videos, just in the general sense of what the mind is capable of and it makes me wonder why everyone else "society's definition of 'normal'" cannt reach it.

Examples: Kim Peak, the inspiration for rain man. Can read two pages, one with each eye, in approximately 7-10 seconds, and retains 95+% of information. Possibly the greatest memory ever. Could tell you everything about a specific zip code, and could tell you what day of the week wintson churchill's birthday is this year, etc.

Stephen Wiltshire: could not talk until age 5, however when flown above an entire city for 45 minutes he will be able to recreate the city on a 15 foot by 5 foot canvas with stencil to near flawless identical. link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=jVqRT_kCOLI)

Daniel Tammet: Can see pictures in his mind encurred by a series of seizures at age 4. uses the pictures to recall advanced mathematical calculations. link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1Ss&mode=related&search=)

Just some links to hopefully stimulate some discussion

[ozyman]

[ QUOTE ]
I happened to be talking to a Family Doctor in a social setting recently, and the topic of increased diagnosis of autism came up.

He mentioned the obvious, that the definition has broadened, and better diagnosis as a whole. But he also had one more interesting theory. He claimed that parents would rather have their children diagnosed as autistic than mentally retarded (sorry I am not sure of the correct term). And that doctors would often fudge the diagnosis to make the parents happy.

I don't think he had anything to back up those statements, and he had had a couple of drinks. So it's probably a baseless statement. But still, it's something to think about.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Time article I linked to above says similar things about fudging a diagnosis.

[adanthar]

something like 50% of internet addicted nerds have at least mild aspergers. I have it, you have it, everyone has it. it's not that big a deal, especially since it's linked to increased intelligence. given that enough social conditioning and working on yourself can take care of most of the bad stuff in mild to moderate cases, I'll take that tradeoff.

(mild) aspergers != 'real' autism (and thank god for that.)

[MrX]

Myrtle, nice posts.

I have a 3 year old with autism, diagnosed at just over 2 years old. I could write a lot about some of his interesting behaviors and some of the ways he was diagnosed very early, but I'd have to be in a pefect mood since it brings back some powerful memories.

He attends a special school where he gets intense 1 on 1 attention and has been integrated into a few preschool type settings with a 'shadow'. He learned sign language and eventually has developed quite a vocabulary although the words are hard to understand.

A daunting thing as a parent is the extensive anecodotal therapies out there. Most do not have any true evidence-based research to prove their effectivenss, but the anecdotal stories are powerful. These include all sorts of diets, most commonly gluten and casein free; chelation to rid the body of toxins; probiotics and other ways to replenish good gut bacteria; IVIG (Intravenous immune globulin from other people; and countless others.

Kids fall of over the range of autism and very few are the 'classic' kid shown on TV. The autism preschool he attends is for kids ages 2-6 and costs about $60k per year. Even with this high cost the waiting list is long enough that some kids will be too old before a spot ever opens up. It makes me so sad to think of the kids that are barely getting any help at all.

I'll add a post about some of his skills and defecits which are interesting.

[fish2plus2]

Im autistic.

[DonkBluffer]

If what bet2win described is aspergers or whatever, then I have that. But how is most of that different from simply being socially anxious/awkward?

[fifield]

[ QUOTE ]

Examples: Kim Peak, the inspiration for rain man. Can read two pages, one with each eye, in approximately 7-10 seconds, and retains 95+% of information. Possibly the greatest memory ever. Could tell you everything about a specific zip code, and could tell you what day of the week wintson churchill's birthday is this year, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

On Discovery Science Channel tonight, the Kim Peek documentary, "The Real Rainman", is on at 7p est. Before it is "Brainman", which is also worth watching.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
something like 50% of internet addicted nerds have at least mild aspergers. I have it, you have it, everyone has it. it's not that big a deal, especially since it's linked to increased intelligence. given that enough social conditioning and working on yourself can take care of most of the bad stuff in mild to moderate cases, I'll take that tradeoff.

(mild) aspergers != 'real' autism (and thank god for that.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't downplay the seriousness of Asperger's. Yes, for many people at the mild end of Asperger's it may only be some social ackwardness, a minor lack of coordination and perhaps a few language issues. As you say, there is also the upside of a *tendency* to have better-than-average intelligence, particularly in math, though sadly this is not true in every case.

When you look at moderate to severe Asperger's, though, you're now virtually a social outcast, the last picked in sports, and you struggle mightly to just keep your head above water in class - perhaps you do (just) OK in math, but in English? Good luck. The worst part, perhaps, is that you're right on the border of getting help, and many parents don't know enough about Asperger's or about the educational system to get help that the child NEEDS to even try and make it in the normal world.

While I don't in any way want to minimize the issues of full-on Autism, at least there are programs and institutions in place to help in these cases, and the obviousness of the need for assistance ensures that it will be provided, for life if need be. For someone with moderate to severe Asperger's, the future may actually be much bleaker as they struggle to fit in to a world that doesn't feel or realize that people with Asperger's also need some level of support.

[bet2win]

Asperger's also involves a highly routine based lifestyle, obsessions, better at logic/math/pattern recognition not just being socially awkward or unsocial.

Here are some tests

test 1 (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html) I scored 42 on this one

test 2 (http://www.thegeeksyndrome.com/) 27 on this one

I'm going to see my GP this week and try and get refered so I can get diagnosed.

[Fast Food Knight]

I think it's so fascinating how Amanda Baggs mentioned that she thinks in patterns and colors. It reminded me of Daniel Tammet and his description of his thought process. I think he is more impressive than Kim Peek. It amazes me to think of all the autistic geniuses in the world that we have yet to figure out how to communicate with yet.

[siralos]

There are alot of forms of psychiatric problems that could be associated with difficulties in social life.
Autistic tendency is but one part, personality disorders are another and fobies a third. I think plain shyness is the most common though (and not a psychiatric problem).

With that said I do belive asperger is overrepresnted on internet boards and on technical universities for example.

Selfdiagnosies is hard and at best just mildly misleading. If you have problems you should see a doctor. There are alot of methods to help build compensatory mechnisms (example cbt).

Just because you have asperger does not mean you have an higher intelligence. It means you don't have a lower then normal intelligence. And as stated earlier maths/logic usually comes easier but the verbal (and social) part of an intelligence test (ex WAIS), the scores are lower.
Monomania, being obsessed with one thing, is common in asperger but not an absolut thing.
The biggest problems lies of course in problems due to not understanding the social game.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A couple of years back there was a lot of controversy about whether children's vaccines were causing a rise in autism cases. The hypothesis was that one of the additives to these vaccines contained mercury and might be causing it. link (http://specialchildren.about.com/od/autismandvaccines/i/vaccines_2.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

This was later found to be completly untrue. The study in question was poorly made and not very scientific. Recent studies show no correlation between autism and vaccinations.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be entirely correct -- there are recent studies ( last 5 years ) which do not all agree on this. Although, the common take-away is that even if vaccinations are involved they are certainly not the sole cause of the condition.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I have a mild case of aspergers as well I haven't been diagnosed or anything and I cant really be bothered. Although it might be an idea in the future so I have a card to hold up as an excuse for being socially inept.

I'm not social at all. I have been a loner for many years not because nobody liked me I was just that way inclined. Social activities just never really interested me.

I can talk to people fine if I know them but strangers or people I'm not close to I constantly avoid. I cant sit around and chat to people for long periods of time, I just feel really awkward.

I struggle with small talk and greetings.

It is hard for me to maintain eye contact with people without feeling weird.

I show no empathy either, if people died in a bombing or something I'm like well that is just bad luck. A common line i use is "people die everyday, what's the difference"

I have slightly obsessive tendencies. My focus will be on something 100% and then 0% I'm not very good at doing multiple things. Since I play poker for a living I can't play video games because I fear an addiction that would result in me not playing poker.

I'm big on routine and if my routine gets messed up then chaos ensues. I'll typically eat the same foods for months until going off them and onto something else.

My mum told me last year that I had talking difficulties when I was very young and had to see a specialist but I got over it ok.

I think it is difficult for people with mild aspergers because you can function in society ok and you seem normal for the most part but something just isn't quite right.

I really should get diagnosed, it'll probably help me socially (my confidence at least) if I can say that to explain the way I am. Just that getting things done is a major obstacle for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to be blunt here, you probably don't have a "mild case of Asperger's"; Asperger's isn't a cold. You are likely just either A) a generally desensitized individual, and there are plenty of them, B) socially awkward, or C) possibly just a bit of a jerk regarding people you don't know.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
something like 50% of internet addicted nerds have at least mild aspergers. I have it, you have it, everyone has it. it's not that big a deal, especially since it's linked to increased intelligence. given that enough social conditioning and working on yourself can take care of most of the bad stuff in mild to moderate cases, I'll take that tradeoff.

(mild) aspergers != 'real' autism (and thank god for that.)

[/ QUOTE ]


No they don't -- social awkwardness is not Asperger's; its social awkwardness. The recent trendy coolness of "mild Asperger's" among those who really want to find a reason to blame for their social awkwardness is sad.

You can be awkward, solitary, quiet, clumsy, shy, etc without it being "mild Asperger's".

There is a quantative measurement regarding the diagnose of Asperger's as well as other Autistic spectrum disorders ( ASDs). It involves a measurable percentage of delayed development in particular areas; and this delay must not be uniform. The lack of uniformity in delay is a crucial determinant in differentiating between Autism and general retardation.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
If what bet2win described is aspergers or whatever, then I have that. But how is most of that different from simply being socially anxious/awkward?

[/ QUOTE ]

What he described isn't Asperger's; and what he described isn't any different from being socially anxious/awkward. So you are not confused, he is.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
Asperger's also involves a highly routine based lifestyle, obsessions, better at logic/math/pattern recognition not just being socially awkward or unsocial.

Here are some tests

test 1 (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html) I scored 42 on this one

test 2 (http://www.thegeeksyndrome.com/) 27 on this one

I'm going to see my GP this week and try and get refered so I can get diagnosed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, those are pretty bad. I'd bet a huge percentage of people would score similar on those tests.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
There are alot of forms of psychiatric problems that could be associated with difficulties in social life.
Autistic tendency is but one part, personality disorders are another and fobies a third. I think plain shyness is the most common though (and not a psychiatric problem).

With that said I do belive asperger is overrepresnted on internet boards and on technical universities for example.

Selfdiagnosies is hard and at best just mildly misleading. If you have problems you should see a doctor. There are alot of methods to help build compensatory mechnisms (example cbt).

Just because you have asperger does not mean you have an higher intelligence. It means you don't have a lower then normal intelligence. And as stated earlier maths/logic usually comes easier but the verbal (and social) part of an intelligence test (ex WAIS), the scores are lower.
Monomania, being obsessed with one thing, is common in asperger but not an absolut thing.
The biggest problems lies of course in problems due to not understanding the social game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually an Asperger's diagnosis says nothing about your intelligence; and you certainly could have a lower than normal intelligence and be diagnosed with Asperger's.

[siralos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are alot of forms of psychiatric problems that could be associated with difficulties in social life.
Autistic tendency is but one part, personality disorders are another and fobies a third. I think plain shyness is the most common though (and not a psychiatric problem).

With that said I do belive asperger is overrepresnted on internet boards and on technical universities for example.

Selfdiagnosies is hard and at best just mildly misleading. If you have problems you should see a doctor. There are alot of methods to help build compensatory mechnisms (example cbt).

Just because you have asperger does not mean you have an higher intelligence. It means you don't have a lower then normal intelligence. And as stated earlier maths/logic usually comes easier but the verbal (and social) part of an intelligence test (ex WAIS), the scores are lower.
Monomania, being obsessed with one thing, is common in asperger but not an absolut thing.
The biggest problems lies of course in problems due to not understanding the social game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually an Asperger's diagnosis says nothing about your intelligence; and you certainly could have a lower than normal intelligence and be diagnosed with Asperger's.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the criteria for asperger is actually that there are no significant delay in cognitive development. Eg that you are somewhat normally intelligent. Therefor "high functioning autism". There are others form of autism were the intelligence is lower then normal.

[goodgrief]

High functioning autism/Asperger's is more than just being socially awkward. I was unable to talk to a stranger until I was in my early teens. I knew how to speak. I just couldn't. It was like a force field. I was socially awkward for years after that, due to the inexperience of not having communicated with anyone until I was 13, but it was just a matter of soldiering on and not caring if someone thought I was a dweeb. I really can't explain it and wonder about it to this day, because it was so weird that I couldn't speak when I wished to.

At one point the school actually informed my parents that I was deaf -- a result met with much hilarity from the parental influence who knew damn well I wasn't. Many high-functioning autistics/Asperger's -- especially males -- are never really able to converse with strangers. It can be incapacitating. There is no treatment. I'll give my mom credit, she signed me up for every "charm school" there was. Probably no different from today's "behavior therapy," only a lot cheaper.

I do think it's worth studying the effect of hormones. When I attained puberty -- thankfully early -- it made a huge difference. No, I'm never going to make eye contact. That kind of thing is just creepy. But I can talk to you. The sex urge is powerful. Knowing that most males never overcome this -- and the famous example of someone overcoming this is Temple Grandin, a woman, it makes me wonder if estrogen or another female hormone might be beneficial. I'd want to be cautious with this, as I wouldn't want to advocate the neurering of Asperger's males (you don't want to eliminate your Isaac Newtons) but at least the avenue might be explored to see if a safe treatment could be found.

[Matt Flynn]

I know a psychologist who works with severely autistic children. He showed me a video of one child's progression with therapy. It was truly remarkable. I have no idea how duplicable that result is, but no question I would get my child his team's help.

Some here have pointed out that the sum of [mentally retarded + autistic] as a percent of population hasn't really changed. That says volumes. In both cases, social support can make a great deal of difference.

The whole MMR vaccine / thimerosol "controversy" always struck me as highly contrived. There is only a speck of mercury in the vaccine. Please compare that to the bioavailable amount found in the average can of tuna. Also, thimerosol used to be a major component of contact lens solution. So before blaming the vaccine, at least show plausible exposure increase. In any case, there was a huge study in the New England Journal of Medicine showing zero association between MMR vaccine and autism, and thimerosol is being phased out of vaccines. btw, if mercury is your worry you should get the Republicans out of office as soon as possible. It would be relatively cheap to radically drop the amount of mercury being released into the environment from coal plants, etc. I believe the State of North Carolina even passed laws as such -- laws that were overridden by federal law disallowing such restrictions -- but don't quote me.

Tangent: The US population sits on the cusp of herd immunity to measles. It takes something like 85% of people being vaccinated to prevent widespread outbreaks, which is right where we're at. Major outbreaks will happen in the coming decade if MMR utilization rates drop further. People forget how bad that disease was for the unlucky 1%. We as a country need to stop focusing on the latest fad in what vaccines theoretically do -- they will always get blamed for something, just like herbals will always be claimed as the cure for something -- and instead focus resources on a massive public health project of the scope of the Framingham Heart Study to identify the causes of the atopy spectrum of asthma/allergies/atopic dermatitis and the causes and best treatments for autism. Send the research money after the biggest coming threats. The cost would be trivial compared to the amount of money spent on the diseases, not to mention compared to the suffering of the afflicted. [/tangent]

[Michael C.]

I teach English in Japan, but once a week for about four years I taught at a "special education school," in which probably half the kids had some form of autism. The first thing I learned from that experience is just how varied the symptoms were. You had everything from kids who seemed almost "normal," except that they loved to study something involving a pattern, often memorizing train scheduled. On the other extreme were kids would couldn't talk at all, and who would spend all day punching themselves in the face, wearing gloves. The kids who could communicate invariably responded better to pictures than words, and had a hobby they obsessed over. Only rarely did I see a "savant," such as in Rain Man.

Anyway, teaching there got me to thinking about autism a lot. First of all, I really don't think scientists have any idea how the rate of autism now compares to 20 years ago. In these days all kinds of people are diagnosed with everything, while back then a lot of the mild or even mildly sever cases would live with their families, and never have any contact with the medical community. My second thought is that autism is an extreme spectrum, and almost everybody has it to some degree, and its only a matter of what end of the spectrum you are. If you think about it, some of the attributes of autism would be genetically advantageous to the species, such as the ability to concentrate on seemingly trivial facts, recognize patterns, etc. A good poker player, for example, is so focused on cards and betting patterns that he/she has to tune out all the outside noise. And they have to be able to study these patterns over and over and over again. I think it's funny how in so many categories people try to say if someone "is" or "isn't," instead of figuring out where a person lies, which is obviously far more complex.

[Sifmole]

[ QUOTE ]
I know a psychologist who works with severely autistic children. He showed me a video of one child's progression with therapy. It was truly remarkable. I have no idea how duplicable that result is, but no question I would get my child his team's help.

Some here have pointed out that the sum of [mentally retarded + autistic] as a percent of population hasn't really changed. That says volumes. In both cases, social support can make a great deal of difference.

The whole MMR vaccine / thimerosol "controversy" always struck me as highly contrived. There is only a speck of mercury in the vaccine. Please compare that to the bioavailable amount found in the average can of tuna. Also, thimerosol used to be a major component of contact lens solution. So before blaming the vaccine, at least show plausible exposure increase. In any case, there was a huge study in the New England Journal of Medicine showing zero association between MMR vaccine and autism, and thimerosol is being phased out of vaccines. btw, if mercury is your worry you should get the Republicans out of office as soon as possible. It would be relatively cheap to radically drop the amount of mercury being released into the environment from coal plants, etc. I believe the State of North Carolina even passed laws as such -- laws that were overridden by federal law disallowing such restrictions -- but don't quote me.

Tangent: The US population sits on the cusp of herd immunity to measles. It takes something like 85% of people being vaccinated to prevent widespread outbreaks, which is right where we're at. Major outbreaks will happen in the coming decade if MMR utilization rates drop further. People forget how bad that disease was for the unlucky 1%. We as a country need to stop focusing on the latest fad in what vaccines theoretically do -- they will always get blamed for something, just like herbals will always be claimed as the cure for something -- and instead focus resources on a massive public health project of the scope of the Framingham Heart Study to identify the causes of the atopy spectrum of asthma/allergies/atopic dermatitis and the causes and best treatments for autism. Send the research money after the biggest coming threats. The cost would be trivial compared to the amount of money spent on the diseases, not to mention compared to the suffering of the afflicted. [/tangent]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask yourself this though -- when there was a very large CDC investigation into this issue and it reached congress, all documents that had been produced were sealed and locked away. Then sometime later a rider was added to the Patriot Act making it impossible to sue Eli-Lily (sp) for any condition or harm related to certain vaccines -- one of them being the MMR.

Why?

I am the father of a nearly 7 year old son with autism. I don't know why he has this condition. I do know that his diet has a huge effect on his ability to deal with day-to-day life and many alternative therapies have had a significant effect on behavior and ability to learn. So it is an odd world that you enter when you begin to deal with autism.

[mrmr]

[ QUOTE ]
Ask yourself this though -- when there was a very large CDC investigation into this issue and it reached congress, all documents that had been produced were sealed and locked away. Then sometime later a rider was added to the Patriot Act making it impossible to sue Eli-Lily (sp) for any condition or harm related to certain vaccines -- one of them being the MMR.

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
My guess is because the results of the CDC investigation suggested that Eli-Lily (sp) is not responsible for any condition or harm related to certain vaccines -- one of them being the MMR. That is, if anything resembling what you've described actually happened.

[ QUOTE ]
I am the father of a nearly 7 year old son with autism. I don't know why he has this condition. I do know that his diet has a huge effect on his ability to deal with day-to-day life and many alternative therapies have had a significant effect on behavior and ability to learn. So it is an odd world that you enter when you begin to deal with autism.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here are a couple of articles.

http://www.discover.com/issues/jan-05/features/medicine/vaccine-autism-link-debunked/

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2005/092005/09252005/131521/index_html?page=1

I'm sure you have your own sources, but it is important to remember that just because you don't know why your son has the condition does not in any way suggest that there is a government conspiracy and/or that researchers are producing fraudulent reports.

Current science seems to indicate that vaccines did not cause autism. We don't know what does cause it, yet. If you want a more definitive answer than that, you're leaving the realm of medicine and entering the realm of religion.

And by the way, in no way is this kind of thing unique to autism. For just about every incurable, particularly fatal, illness, there are vultures out there preying on the victims with black market so-called cures and therapies, and "plausible" evidence that the government or big business or doctors don't want them released to the public. It's con artistry 101: desperate people will buy anything hopeful.

Pushing false but hopeful information on desperate people, even if it is not for personal monetary profit, is a sick form of con artistry that needs to be exposed and attacked.

[Tyrannic]

I found this thread really interesting and informative.

My little cousin(9th grade) has aspergers and has very strong basic math abilities and memorization capabilities. For instance, when asked what day of the week my birthday falls on in 2222 he will answer in seconds.

He has a lot of problems in hist/science b.c. he just memorizes the text but does not understand it. For instance in bio, we jsut grappled with the electron transport chain. He memorizied how it works, got an 100 on the test associated with it, but doesn't understand it. Thus, the teacher gave him a point deduction, which we talked about for I felt it was a little unfair.

He's getting into stocks. Def. +ev there. lol.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]

Ask yourself this though -- when there was a very large CDC investigation into this issue and it reached congress, all documents that had been produced were sealed and locked away. Then sometime later a rider was added to the Patriot Act making it impossible to sue Eli-Lily (sp) for any condition or harm related to certain vaccines -- one of them being the MMR.

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

conspiracies involving dozens of people do not stay quiet or secret and do not exist.

companies cannot put out a vaccine under current tort law without specific exemptions. they'd be signing their own bankrupty papers.

all the best to you taking care of your son! he's lucky you care so much.

[MaxxDaddy]

Hey guys, my girlfriend currently works as a teaching assistant in a school for children with autism in New Jersey. She works with 15 and 16 year-old boys who are about twice her size and differ in their communicative abilities and behavior. She's a lurker in the forums, but doesn't feel like joining at all. She's been reading this thread and she wanted me to post something for her. Here you go:

A few people have mentioned Daniel Tammet, but I don't think I saw any mention of his book (sorry if I just missed it). I am about halfway through Born on a Blue Day and it may be the most interesting book I have every read, especially as a person that works with teenagers with Autism. It provides a perspective into the mind of someone with an Autism Spectrum Disorder that really made me step back and think about the unusual habits that my students display. I understand why we try to "control" and "contain" certain behaviors in order for them to be functional/acceptable community members in the eyes of the wider community, but the insight I have received from this book really made me think about how little we really understand about why they act the way they do. Just wanted to contribute something and recommend this book. I really think it is an important perspective for anyone that is interested in Autism, a family member of a non-communicative person with Autism, or someone who works with those with Autism.

[jjlied]

How much longer until we all communicate solely through machines? Is "Autism" a disease or an evolutionary trait? With the remarkable innate abilities that many, if not all(note their inhibited communication)autistics possess, when will punctuated equlibrium, the Mayan Calendar, and "Autism" be recognized for what it is. The future of humanity is now.

[joop]

Just wanna throw this out there, maybe somebody has some info on this, haven't seen it mentioned thus far...

Isn't it true that it's only in the US where there has been such a sharp increase in the number of diagnosed cases of autism? Other coutries such as the UK, France, Australia, etc, have not seen such a sharp rise.

Does anyone feel this could point to a cause of some sort?

[goodgrief]

Heh. I must have had some grasp on normality even at my worst, I wasn't going to punch myself in the face, I'd much rather punch you in the face.

[ QUOTE ]
You had everything from kids who seemed almost "normal," except that they loved to study something involving a pattern, often memorizing train scheduled. On the other extreme were kids would couldn't talk at all, and who would spend all day punching themselves in the face, wearing gloves.

[/ QUOTE ]

[goodgrief]

I thought the increase in autism was worldwide or at least "worldwide" in first world countries such as Japan and Western Europe. Not just North America. Considering the supposed link to mercury and coal-fired plants, I would expect to see lots of Asperger's in China as well -- and don't we? They might not be officially diagnosed, but I guess we can tell a dweeb/nerd when we see one, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Just wanna throw this out there, maybe somebody has some info on this, haven't seen it mentioned thus far...

Isn't it true that it's only in the US where there has been such a sharp increase in the number of diagnosed cases of autism? Other coutries such as the UK, France, Australia, etc, have not seen such a sharp rise.

Does anyone feel this could point to a cause of some sort?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]

conspiracies involving dozens of people do not stay quiet or secret and do not exist.


[/ QUOTE ]

wow thats optimistic/insane.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
How much longer until we all communicate solely through machines? Is "Autism" a disease or an evolutionary trait? With the remarkable innate abilities that many, if not all(note their inhibited communication)autistics possess, when will punctuated equlibrium, the Mayan Calendar, and "Autism" be recognized for what it is. The future of humanity is now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't believe it, but after reading this like 4 times its coherent enough that I would love to hear you elaborate...

[Phaedrus]

[ QUOTE ]
conspiracies involving dozens of people do not stay quiet or secret and do not exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a lot of research on this topic when my son was born and it was quite an eye opener for me.

There may not be a conspiracy but there is certainly a huge amount of bias built into the official "science".

For example, I read the full transcript of the Simpsonwood Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Simpsonwood_CDC_conference).

The way that the bias manifests itself is that the burden of proof is on those who try to establish the link between vaccination and autism.

You would think that the burden would be on those who want to inject mercury into babies to show that it's safe but that's not how it works.

So, imagine a study that shows a correlation between autism and vaccination. But the sample is fairly small so there is only a 90% confidence factor. In other words there is 90% chance that the correlation is valid but a 10% chance that it is just coincidence.

This "fails to reject the null hypothesis" because a 95% confidence factor is required. So, this study would be summarized by the CDC as saying that the study "failed to show any correlation between vaccination and autism".

If a study meets the 95% confidence the protocols are nitpicked..."were the results adjusted for income level, race, geographic location, parents' education level etc.?" You need to read the transcript to get a real flavor of this, it's like listening to OJ's defense lawyers. This study would then be summarized by the CDC as "having faulty protocol" and be rejected.

Here's how I think the story goes:

Vaccines containing thimerisol triggered a lot of autism in susceptible individuals over the years. (Low birth weight, multiple simultaneous vaccinations, and likely some genetic predisposition comes into play)

The thimerisol has been removed so the vaccines are no longer causing this problem, so what benefit is there in rehashing the past? The CDC doesn't want it because parents lose confidence in vaccines, the industry obviously doesn't want to, politicians are happy to let sleeping dogs lie.

Is this a conspiracy? No.

[The Bride]

Just a couple of comments to add (I'm involved in biomedical research and know some of the individuals involved in autism research).

First, I've heard it very cynically expressed that the prevalence of autism will level off once it reaches 1%. A similar increase in "prevalence" occured for schizophrenia as that became better diagnosed in the fifties and sixties. Schizophrenia prevalence eventually levelled off at ~1%. It strikes many as a somewhat convenient number and the cynical view is that clinical researchers have a vested interest in inflating the prevalence number (more funding). When you tell people a disorder effects 0.1% or 1 in a 1000 people, it tends not to have the same effect as 1%. There seems to be a psychological leap from a fraction of a percent to a whole percent. I guess time will tell whether this view will be correct for autism prevlaence rates.

Second, with regard to the vaccination debate, many people don't realise how serious NOT vaccinating your child actually is. For example, measles has a fatlity rate of about 0.1%, and rubella can lead to some pretty horrible birth defects if a pregnant woman is exposed to it. So it isn't as simple as saying the onus is on the vaccine manafacturers to "prove" their vaccines don't cause autism.

[keikiwai]

interesting

another youtube video, first person explanation of aspereger's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgUjmeC-4o

also related:

guy draws out 5 yards of paper after a 45 minute helicopter ride

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TibQ_1zH3U

[TheWorstPlayer]

I dont have time to read this thread right now, just saw the title. Have people heard about the economist linking autism with watching television? Sparked incredibly heated debate (LDO). If it hasn't been commented on yet in this thread, I think it would be really interesting to hear what people have to say about it. Particularly Dean if he reads this forum...

[ QUOTE ]
something like 50% of internet addicted nerds have at least mild aspergers. I have it, you have it, everyone has it. it's not that big a deal, especially since it's linked to increased intelligence. given that enough social conditioning and working on yourself can take care of most of the bad stuff in mild to moderate cases, I'll take that tradeoff.

(mild) aspergers != 'real' autism (and thank god for that.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have no [censored] clue what you are talking about.

People treat the subject as if it would be something cool to have asperger/autism.

[gjv76]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTsVzOKqK-k

Don't forget about J-Mac!

[HP]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgUjmeC-4o

[/ QUOTE ]

wow hearing this guy talk reminds me of a friend of mine. An example phone convo between me and my friend:

I pick up the phone: "hello?"

5 second pause

him: "oh. hey Jim!"

5 second pause

me: "so ah.... what'd you call me about?"

5 second pause

him: "oh right! well...."


He's socially akward, and mid sentence often pauses for a few seconds considering his next word. I would have thought he was slightly mentally retarded, but he is currently getting a PHD in theoretical physics.

After reading this thread, I suspect my friend is slightly autistic (assuming it's possible to be just 'slightly' autistic)

[MH11]

Anyone know any retailers for computer software etc. made for "special education" purposes? And by special education, I mean software developed to help parents, people working with autistic kids and/or the kids themselves.

[jjlied]

Although I have often misdiagnosed myself as autistic (as well as a host of other maladies; being an ENTP with a 149 IQ will do that), I am only currently diagnosed as Bipolar II. In reponse to the query registered by ike, I can only say that when one looks at the pyramids, one must not look only at their shape, but what that shape means in terms of space and time. I hope that I am not the 20 something on this forum to feel that the last 3 years have occurred fasted than any previous three years. Time is relative, and is increasing. This is why there are pyramids on multiple, completely separate continents. This is why I am able to tell all of this community, which will in turn spread the word. Just as Jesus told his disciples (I am not comparing myself to our Lord. I am far from divinity, trust me) The word is being transmitted to the smartest, as has been done for millenia. Assumming the form a poker nerd is the best way to inform the smartest of what is. I will be in Las Vegas for the WSOP. I will elaborate there. I respect you all.

[Marnixvdb]

it hasn't been mentioned yet even though I guess most people will have heard of it, but a great moving novel written from the perspective of an autistic boy is 'the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime' by Mark Haddon. I'd recommend it strongly if you want to have a great read on the subject.

There are some very good posts in this thread. I don't have a whole lot to add, other than sometimes my sister in law recounts her autistic pupils progress through physical exercises. Both physical and mental development are linked to a certain extent and dedicated physical exercises can help autistic children over some of the tresholds they have in their development. It's not going to change the world for them but will do a lot of good.

[JaBlue]

curious incident is a fun read. i'd recommend it too.

something cool I learned in class today [oversimplified]:
-"mu neurons" light up when things with biological motion do object-oriented goal tasks. like seeing someone [but not a robot] pick up an apple.

-"mu rhythms" are active when mu neurons are not. we suppose they keep the brain on 'standby' or in some kind of state of preparedness for the activation of mu neurons. mu rhythms are active opposite when mu neurons are.

-some suppose that autistic people have problems with mu rhythms.

-biofeedback is using physiological indicators to tell what kind of state a person is in. Commonly used to help reduce stress. Say state A is known to be "very relaxing," then a person straps on some electronic gear and tries to relax. When he does, the machines tell him he's in A. Repeat this over time and learn how to relax.

-some hope to use biofeedback to train autistic people to recognize other people's emotions by training them to have good mu rhythms.

-hard to imagine that anyone could really control their mu rhythms, but this stuff seems to work a little bit.

-I don't really know what I'm talking about. you'll have to search the web to learn more because I won't be able to answer any but the most basic of questions.

[cianosheehan]

El D, I haven't read the full thread but that was SUCH an awesome vid. Thanks for posting

[young Nut]

Very, very insightful thread. I'm glad I spent the past two hours reading this and watching videos. I really think autism is amazing and sad at the same time.

And although this may sound stupid, I kind of wonder as well if this is where evolution is leading us. Very intelligent savants, with limited communication abilities? Just imagine what that Amanda lady could write if she decided to write books. She seems incredibly intelligent.

Also, does anyone know of any good stories of autistic people being really successful in poker. I really think poker is a game that the mildly autistic could really thrive at. I mean, except for the ability to be socially acceptable at a table, mildly autistic people could have a huge advantage at the poker table.

[JaBlue]

I misheard the TA. "mu neurons" should be "mirror neurons" though mu rhythms is still mu rhythms. Just in case you want to look that stuff up.

[jjlied]

I mean, except for the ability to be socially acceptable at a table, mildly autistic people could have a huge advantage at the poker table.

Cough::Phil Ivey::Cough

[rocketlaunch]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, does anyone know of any good stories of autistic people being really successful in poker. I really think poker is a game that the mildly autistic could really thrive at. I mean, except for the ability to be socially acceptable at a table, mildly autistic people could have a huge advantage at the poker table.

[/ QUOTE ]

For live limit, it really isn't much of a problem. For live NL it can be an issue.