10NL AK @ a table of super LAGs

[RollTide77]

This table was nuts. At least 3 of the players were friends as they called each other by their real names (not usernames). A bunch of yackboxes. The group had 1 player @ at least VPIP 50, and the other two were around 65 and 80 or so <font color="white"> </font> . The other players were normal. They had been dinking off $0.40 from me here and there as they'd give me a rediculous &gt;$1.50-$2 raise PF when I wasn't very strong. So then I sat at this table quietly and waited for a hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($9)
MP ($13.60)
CO ($11.25)
Button ($2.70)
SB ($9.35)
BB ($10.20)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.4</font>, MP calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($1.75) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, MP folds, CO calls $1.50, Button folds.

Turn: ($4.75) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $3.5</font>,

CO says "go all in"

Hero ???

[Warteen]

goes all in.

And if he loses, probably finds a new table.

[VPIP100]

Shove.

[whoisthedrizzle]

I think I might bet the turn, maybe about 3 dollars, to discourage a bluff, but as played I'd probably fold the turn (next best option I think would be to shove). It's not a very good card for us and it's difficult to just call here when we'll probably face a big bet again on the river. Also, in my experience, when someone types something like go all in they have the nuts or close to it, but that probably varies a lot based on the particular opponent.

[Pokey]

This is a spooky situation.

Your opponent's range includes many hands that destroy you, like KQ/KJ/QJ, K3s, AT, 33, and possibly Q3s. With a hand as strong as JJ+ I'd expect a preflop reraise to demolish you, but that's going to be player-specific.

You hit the flop and bet it hard -- that's a good choice. CO calls: don't read too much into the fact that he didn't raise. He's got position, and if he's clever and paying attention he'll know that you're aggressive enough to do much of the work for him.

This hand gets harder as it goes on. On the turn you've got two good choices: bet solidly and hope he folds or check and hope he bluffs. You chose to check.

Recognize how this looks to your opponent: a timid player who gives up easily (that's what your description of your play at this table implies to me) has raised preflop from early position, bet the flop, and given up on the turn. As an aggressive opponent I would often conclude that you were ready to give up on the hand, and I would bet it to induce the fold your 99 or AQ or some such holding that you were unhappy with.

How should you respond? Well, pushing seems frisky to me. Villain will know you like your hand and only call with hands that beat you. Folding seems overly weak considering your opponent's proclivities. I like a smooth-call here, with the intent of check-calling any river bet. Your opponents are aggro, they're loose, and they're here to have fun; that often involves many highly aggressive bluffs. A river spade is not a flush, it's a scare card. A river Q is not trips, it's a scare card. Don't chicken out and stick to your guns. It's a high-variance play, and it's going to scare you tremendously, but calling down seems to be the most +EV move you can make here. Sometimes TPTK is the nuts, and you have to back it with your stack.

[justscott]

If you check the turn to me I am betting into you too.

[Alexisonfyre]

You said that the three guys know each other? How about they were talking to each other on AIM or MSN Messenger (would explain why 2 of them folded the flop while the other one smoothcalled). There is a real possibility of collusion here, I would have reported them.

I fold this btw.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]

How about they were talking to each other on AIM or MSN Messenger (would explain why 2 of them folded the flop while the other one smoothcalled). There is a real possibility of collusion here, I would have reported them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a good rule of thumb: nobody ever colludes at the $10NL tables. You work together to steal an extra, what, 3 PTBB/100? Are there really people that desperate for an extra $0.50 per hour? Besides, any group of colluders who are successful at what they do are going to move up to higher stakes where they can make a real score. Also, colluders aren't going to call attention to themselves by chatting in the CHATBOX with each other. Finally, all the major poker sites spent considerable time and effort to make sure that they catch and eliminate collusion to keep their customers feeling safe at the tables.

This is a group of three RL friends logging on and playing poker together. They're there to have fun, and that usually means they're there to lose some money and create some good stories to talk about over the weekend. Don't fear them, but try to understand them.

And don't bother reporting them -- they're NOT colluding.

[Alexisonfyre]

@Pokey - I know a lot of people that do this at this level. Not really colluding, more like telling their hole cards to each other on IM. Sometimes I see these guys playing 5NL - 10NL in class with their laptops on the same table. This is def. cheating.

[RollTide77]

Pokey is spot on as usual. These guys were just some buddies logging on and having fun. I know this b/c a few hands later the same guy told his buddy I'm pushing if you call PF no matter what I have. Then they joked about it when he backed off. Then a few hands later he said it again and one of them went AI on him on the flop and said he had AA and the guy sat and thought for a min, said he had 58 (paired 8), and pushed anyway saying he needed a 5 and had 3 outs. They both were telling the truth. If I had known this b4 I would have called.

Anyways, on this hand I was going to bet the turn but when the J hit I figured the chances I was up against one of these two pairs was pretty good so I backed off. I kind of like Pokey's line of calling down but I think I'd feel like a real idiot afterwards when he had two pair and I just lost my stack.

[RollTide77]

The result:
Hero folds
CO says, "thats what i thought"
CO collected $4.55 from pot
CO shows [5d Qd] (a pair of Queens)

Ouch!!!!

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
@Pokey - I know a lot of people that do this at this level. Not really colluding, more like telling their hole cards to each other on IM. Sometimes I see these guys playing 5NL - 10NL in class with their laptops on the same table. This is def. cheating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe so, but I can guarantee it's to say "hey pal, I got a big hand. Might want to fold." Their not using the typical collusion techniques to win more money.

They are costing themselves money essentially.

As for the hand, push as the man asks.

EDIT to add: You can't be afraid to stack off a little light at these levels to these types. People make these retarded bluffs like it's their business. Poker = bluffing to them.

This hand is not even that light. This stuff simply doesn't happen if they know your willing to go to the felt at any time. Sure you'll lose sometimes but generally you'll still have the stronger hand simply because you play tighter. They don't pay attention to much but they know fold, fold, fold when they see it.