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David Sklansky
02-22-2007, 12:21 PM
What does that mean for the three religions that assume it is? What follows is part of a post by Insp Clue So that gives a detailed account of some scholars work that strongly indicates the whole damn story, Moses and all, is just not true. And it seems that its falsity is generally accepted by most unbiased experts! Wonder why the public, including me was not aware of that.

Anyway I'm curious how Jews (and Christians and Muslims who will also be affected by its falsity) react to this stuff. Will they deny it or say it doesn't matter even if it is true? If you want to read the complete version, go to the Sklansky Forum.

"What is most important, though, is the point emphasized by Israel Finkelstein, director of the Institute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University, and his colleague Neal Silberman, in their book The Bible Unearthed: “We have no clue, not even a single word, about early Israelites in Egypt: Neither in monumental inscriptions on walls of temples, nor in tomb inscriptions, nor in papyri.” 7 Similarly, William Dever, professor of Near Eastern archaeology and anthropology at the University of Arizona, states in Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?: “no Egyptian text ever found contains a single reference to ‘Hebrews’ or ‘Israelites’ in Egypt, much less to an ‘Exodus.’” 8 The ancient Egyptians were such compulsive chroniclers, albeit biased, that it is inconceivable that they would not record any version of an event as momentous as the Biblical Exodus. We should at least expect some self-serving or biased accounts of this extraordinary event, but there is absolutely no reference to any exodus of Hebrew slaves in the voluminous Egyptian writings.

In addition, archaeological excavations do not support the Biblical Exodus story. Modern archaeological techniques are able to detect evidence of not only permanent settlements, but also of habitations of hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads all over the world as far back as the third millennium B.C. However, there are no finds of a unique religious community living in a distinct area of the eastern delta of the Nile River (“Land of Goshen”) as described in Genesis. In addition, repeated excavations of areas corresponding to Kadesh-Barnea, where the Biblical Israelites lived for thirty-eight of their forty-eight years of wanderings, have revealed no evidence of any encampments. Finkelstein and Silberman point out that, although the sites mentioned in the Exodus story are real, archaeological excavations indicate that they were unoccupied when the Biblical Exodus would have taken place. For example, the Bible refers to messengers sent by Moses from Kadesh-Barnea to the king of Edom asking him to allow the Hebrews to pass through his land. However, the nation of Edom did not come into existence until the 7th century B.C. 9 Melvin Konner, anthropologist and teacher of Jewish studies at Emory University, sums it up this way in his recent book Unsettled, An Anthropology of the Jews: “Except for the Torah text, there is no decisive proof that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt, that they rebelled and walked away from the place, or that a leader such as Moses arose and took that people into the desert.” 10 Futhermore, what evidence we do have, as discussed above, contradicts the Biblical account. How, then, did this fable come to be written?

Finkelstein and Silberman present the plausible thesis that the Deuteronomistic version of the Exodus, which brings together and embellishes the chronicles in the first four books of the Torah, was written during the 7th century B.C. The intent of the story was to rally the inhabitants of Judah against Egypt, which had become its most powerful enemy as Assyrian hegemony waned. Finkelstein and Silberman believe that the evil pharaoh in the Exodus story was actually modeled after the domineering Psamethicus I, who reigned from 664 to 610 B.C., approximately during the time that the Deuteronomistic version was written. This account was “powerful propaganda” that created “an epic saga to express the power and passion of a resurgent Judah’s dreams” in order “to gird the nation for the great national struggle that lay ahead.” In fact, the Egypt described in the Deuteronomistic account is “uncannily similar in its geographical details to that of Psamethicus.” 11

According to Redford, the memories of the Canaanite Hyskos ruling Egypt and subsequently being driven out (though not enslaved and not Hebrew) most likely formed the basis for the Exodus story. 12 The sequence of plagues in the Exodus may be related to the ancient Egyptian belief that the inability to worship multiple gods causes illness. The Amarna tablets indicate that Akhnaten imposed monotheism on polytheistic Egypt during his reign between 1372 and 1354 B.C., allegedly causing the populace to suffer a variety of maladies, which abated with the restoration of polytheism by Akhnaten’s successor. 13 14 Jonathan Kirsh notes that the basket-in-the-bullrushes infant-Moses story is clearly a “cut-and-paste” plagiarism copied almost verbatim from a Mesopotamian text. 15 In the words of Daniel Lazare, the stories of infant Moses, the plagues, and final exodus are “unconnected folktales,” linked together “like pearls on a string.” 16 What we have, according to David Denby, is a “self-confirming, self-glorifying myth of origins,” with Moses as “the hero of the greatest campfire story ever told.” "

tame_deuces
02-22-2007, 01:01 PM
I'd expect a rehash of the exact arguments that is flung in any discussion between a scientific finding and a religious work. History has a way of repeating itself so we can probably predict the outcome fairly easily.

Some academic balltossing from people who dig up an opposint view, their discussion rapidly descends in debating specific details more and more distant from the original question per post made. If one is lucky, no personal insults is made in the end.

A discussion of the finding's validity will also erupt, this will go much as the discussion mentioned above.

A few atheist attacks at religious 'stubborness' is done, which spirals parts of the discussion into slight flaming and issues which are unrelated to the exodus.

Some believers probably take a relaxed stance since they didn't take the historical facts of their religious work so seriously to begin with.

Some hedgescience (academic claims with no reference or use of peers) will probably be thrown into the discussion for good measure.

And it wouldn't surprise that at some point you'll get a linguistical discussion about the true meaning of some word, they always crop up in discussions where people have a tendency to define the meaning own expressions and use differing definitions as an argument..for some reason...


But I sense you really want somebody to answer this with basis on their beliefs though, I just couldn't help myself. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

madnak
02-22-2007, 02:16 PM
If we could prove it? It would just be one more contradiction the fundamentalists refuse to acknowledge.

almostbusto
02-22-2007, 05:02 PM
if exodus wasn't true (in the sense that the events did not happen, not that any lessons on morality or whatever were wrong), and everyone knew it and accepted it, including fundamentalists, almost nothing would change.

a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.

even if you could proof jesus christ never existed and everyone accepted it, i am guessing many (millions at least) would still consider themselves christians. they might not pray to jesus, but they would still follow the teachings because they have faith that that lifestyle will bring happiness. i suppose being a follower of christ in that context would become a lot like being a very very devout follower of Kant, Nietzsche, or even oprah or dr. phil.


most christians like the christian lifestyle and its as simple as that.


EDIT: as for islam and judaism. i am guessing they wouldn't change much either but i don't know as much about those religions. judaism i think might be affected much much less than christianity i think.

i don't know a lot of jews, but every jew i have ever met believes in following jewish tradition as part of your heritage and lifestyle. however, i have yet to meet a jew that feels like he/she has an intimate relationship with god, or anything like what christians have with their god. so as far as i can tell being jewish is 90% a lifestyle/culture and 10% a method of worshipping a god. so if you take god out of the equation, little changes.

vhawk01
02-22-2007, 05:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if exodus wasn't true (in the sense that the events did not happen, not that any lessons on morality or whatever were wrong), and everyone knew it and accepted it, including fundamentalists, almost nothing would change.

a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.


[/ QUOTE ]

This last statement is a logical conclusion. The Christian religion is absolutely built on logic. Its just built on lazy or shoddy logic, or logic based on arbitrary premises.

txag007
02-22-2007, 06:27 PM
http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

SNOWBALL
02-22-2007, 06:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Israel was big and strong enough to challenge Egypt in battle.

[/ QUOTE ]

txag007,

It's hard to have any respect for the article in that link when this appears in the first paragraph: "Israel was big and strong enough to challenge Egypt in battle. "

Also, I don't see how the word Israel being used one time in 1200bc proves anything about the story of exodus.

almostbusto
02-22-2007, 07:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if exodus wasn't true (in the sense that the events did not happen, not that any lessons on morality or whatever were wrong), and everyone knew it and accepted it, including fundamentalists, almost nothing would change.

a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.


[/ QUOTE ]

This last statement is a logical conclusion. The Christian religion is absolutely built on logic. Its just built on lazy or shoddy logic, or logic based on arbitrary premises.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks nit,

you are correct. i wasn't being very precise or accurate in that sentence. however, it doesn't change the thrust of my post at all. so... whatever

SitNHit
02-22-2007, 07:29 PM
I hope you find the end of the endless tunnel.

Phil153
02-22-2007, 07:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. The saviour status of of Jesus (in fact, the whole point of him coming) depends on these Old Testament stories being true.

I'm stunned by how many Christians don't understand this. This used to be bible school 101.

Nielsio
02-22-2007, 07:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What does that mean for the three religions that assume it is? What follows is part of a post by Insp Clue So that gives a detailed account of some scholars work that strongly indicates the whole damn story, Moses and all, is just not true. And it seems that its falsity is generally accepted by most unbiased experts! Wonder why the public, including me was not aware of that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the idea that metaphorical mythology is factual is pretty retarded and corrupt.

Why do the symbols need to represent historical fact? It doesn't make any sense. And it certainly doesn't make it meaningful (quite the opposite, really).

almostbusto
02-22-2007, 07:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong. The saviour status of of Jesus (in fact, the whole point of him coming) depends on these Old Testament stories being true.

I'm stunned by how many Christians don't understand this. This used to be bible school 101.

[/ QUOTE ]

my point is that christians not understanding this is whats makes what i say true. in part at least.

ultimately you could prove every single event of the bible never happened. people would still live 'christian lives' because the like the lifestyle. loving their neighbor and trying to live by all those commandments enriches their lives (in their subjective opinion, which in a sense is the only opinion that matters).

thats my point, many people think living like a christian is a good thing. many people wouldn't change their minds if none of those events in the bible ever happened, because in their mind the moral of the story still teaches them how to live a good life.

so if exodus is false. nothing changes.
if the whole NT is false. then churches might become a bit more like a social club (which they already function as to a great extent) rather than a place of worship, but other than that, not a whole lot would change. christianity would go from the world's dominate religion to the world's dominate philosophy.

SitNHit
02-22-2007, 08:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how your so smart you know what a christian's ultimate believe is....thats truly impressive.

Phil153
02-22-2007, 08:12 PM
No, if Exodus is false, everything changes.

But most religious people are either stupid, brainwashed or dishonest (with themselves), so the practical effect will be pretty small. Unfortunately we no longer live in the era when this would have caused a scandal. The hardened idealism of last century is gone. People just don't care about truth any more.

SitNHit
02-22-2007, 08:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, if Exodus is false, everything changes.

But most religious people are either stupid, brainwashed or dishonest (with themselves), so the practical effect will be pretty small. Unfortunately the era when this would have caused a scandal are over. The hardened idealism of last century is gone. People just don't care about truth any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats true, most are.

almostbusto
02-22-2007, 08:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No, if Exodus is false, everything changes.

But most religious people are either stupid, brainwashed or dishonest (with themselves), so the practical effect will be pretty small. Unfortunately we no longer live in the era when this would have caused a scandal. The hardened idealism of last century is gone. People just don't care about truth any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

first sentence says everything changes. 2nd sentence seems to imply few people will actually change. which is what i was saying. clarify?

vhawk01
02-22-2007, 08:53 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if exodus wasn't true (in the sense that the events did not happen, not that any lessons on morality or whatever were wrong), and everyone knew it and accepted it, including fundamentalists, almost nothing would change.

a Christian's faith is ultimately not tied to one book of the bible or logic at all really. its tied to a belief in jesus christ being the son of god and that following a certain moral code is the path to happiness.


[/ QUOTE ]

This last statement is a logical conclusion. The Christian religion is absolutely built on logic. Its just built on lazy or shoddy logic, or logic based on arbitrary premises.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks nit,

you are correct. i wasn't being very precise or accurate in that sentence. however, it doesn't change the thrust of my post at all. so... whatever

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, its a pet peeve of mine. People have this aggressive anti-intellectual attitude where the words 'logic' and 'reason' are used with scorn and derision. They say things like "Reason isn't everything!" and "Gosh, you are always so LOGICAL!" These are stupid statements, because of course they are false. The people who say them use reason and logic to make their points, ALL of their points. These are usually the last bastions of people who are simply terrible at reason and logic. But it works! Deride someone for being too logical and the crowd is on your side. "OMG he's like a robot!" "Can't you think emotionally!?!?" Its a part of our culture, I suppose, where bragging about your ignorance is far better than bragging about your intelligence.

What does this have to do with you or your post? Not a whole lot! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Phil153
02-22-2007, 08:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, if Exodus is false, everything changes.

But most religious people are either stupid, brainwashed or dishonest (with themselves), so the practical effect will be pretty small. Unfortunately we no longer live in the era when this would have caused a scandal. The hardened idealism of last century is gone. People just don't care about truth any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

first sentence says everything changes. 2nd sentence seems to imply few people will actually change. which is what i was saying. clarify?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm saying that if Exodus is false, the validity of the NT is more or less destroyed. It's a huge blow to Christianity's credibility - which is based on the idea that the story of Jesus is literally true, which in turn depends on the many events in the OT being literally true.

The rest is me agreeing with you.

almostbusto
02-22-2007, 09:00 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, if Exodus is false, everything changes.

But most religious people are either stupid, brainwashed or dishonest (with themselves), so the practical effect will be pretty small. Unfortunately we no longer live in the era when this would have caused a scandal. The hardened idealism of last century is gone. People just don't care about truth any more.

[/ QUOTE ]

first sentence says everything changes. 2nd sentence seems to imply few people will actually change. which is what i was saying. clarify?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm saying that if Exodus is false, the validity of the NT is more or less destroyed. It's a huge blow to Christianity's credibility - which is based on the idea that the story of Jesus is literally true, which in turn depends on the many events in the OT being literally true.

The rest is me agreeing with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dig. i in turn agree with you then.

Brenner Hayes
02-23-2007, 11:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Wonder why the public, including me was not aware of that.

[/ QUOTE ]
About 3 years ago on Penn & Teller's Showtime show they did an episode about the falsehoods of the Bible. In it, they mentioned that there is no credible evidence of the Exodus story. I know I've heard this position a couple other times too, but I can't remember where.

I agree, though, that it is not mentioned often. I think it speaks to the enormous bending-over-backwards deference that politically correct society accords to popular fairy tales.

We don't tell magical thinking young children that there is no Santa Clause and likewise we don't tell magical thinking adults that there is no God of Abraham. This not wanting to burst people's bubbles is mostly done out of the best of intentions. Unfortunately, in regards to the God fairy tale, I believe the unintended consequence of keeping this myth alive is far more harm than good. But most people don't recognize the vast extent of the harm, while readily noticing the good, thus they believe religion to be +EV when it is not.