Beginner seeks advice

[NiceGerman]

Hi,

I have only recently started to play poker and the game intruiges me very much. I bought the first two Harrington books and play at 2NL on pokerstars. Yesterday I lost almost 5$ in the following hand. What could I have done better?

Thanks in advance for your help!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($2.26)
MP1 ($4.90)
MP2 ($0.44)
CO ($5.64)
NiceGerman ($5.06)
SB ($3.69)
BB ($3.36)

Preflop: NiceGerman is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.04</font>, MP1 calls $0.04, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, NiceGerman calls $0.04, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $0.02.

Flop: ($0.17) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $0.02</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman raises to $0.1</font>, UTG calls $0.08.

Turn: ($0.37) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, NiceGerman checks.

River: ($0.37) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $0.1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman raises to $0.4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.7</font>, <font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman raises to $1.8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2.72</font>, NiceGerman calls $0.32.

Final Pot: $5.21

Results below:
UTG has Ts Td (full house, tens full of queens).
NiceGerman has Th Kh (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: UTG wins $5.21.

[Triggerle]

Why do you raise the river? You have bottom pair and UTG has shown you he is not willing to go away.

[flo]

Bet turn, fold to raise.
As played, fold at least to river reraise, you only beat a bluff. If you want to get to SD, just call, don't raise.

[DWarrior]

I think you should raise more on the flop to better define your hand and to extract from the donks. I'm guessing any pp will pay you off if you raise to .15 or .17

If you get re-raised or get action, fold. 3 other players, don't be surprised to see a Q somewhere.

Turn check is good, I think if he checks you can easily bet/fold there for around 2/3 pot, since at those stakes I'm expecting PPs to call.

I don't like the river raise, you really don't have value there to raise, just call and see a showdown. I'd expect to see Tx here for a split most of the time. Once he 3-bets on the river, this is an easy Q, obviously 5th bet your cards are utter trash and have 0% chance to win.

Also, don't show results.

[NiceGerman]

THX for the comments. What do you mean by "don't show results" Should I have left the results section in white color?

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
THX for the comments. What do you mean by "don't show results" Should I have left the results section in white color?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or preferably just don't include them. The results of the hand make no difference to how it should be played and can bias people's opinions.

[eigenvalue]

(1) Never call raises with trap hands like KT, JT, QJ, KJ, AJ, KQ. It's difficult to get away from that as a beginner. Even some stronger players have a huge leak here! But I strongly recommend to never call a raise with these hands!

(2) Especially in the very low limits: Respect reraises! There are so many weak calling stations. When such a player starts reraising, you have to put him on a monster most times. But it's a little bit read dependent. If you see a player calling a lot and suddenly he starts to raise you, be very, very careful!

(3) Nice to see another player from Germany in this forum.

[NiceGerman]

Sorry, but I am not fully fluent with all these definitions yet:
1) Why are KT, JT, QJ, KJ, AJ, KQ called trap hands?
2) What kind of player is considered a calling station and WEAK calling station?

Thanks for your patience /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ama0330]

Hey NG

You should avoid putting lots of money in the pot when you are easily beaten. In this hand, there is a lot that beats you, given that the ace is out and the board is paired. Your KT is not a very good hand now because any queen, any ace, AT, JJ, 99, A9, KK etc etc all beat you. This doesnt mean that you should fold, but you shouldn't raise because you arent strong. When UTG bets 0.1 on the river, you should just call, not raise.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I am not fully fluent with all these definitions yet:
1) Why are KT, JT, QJ, KJ, AJ, KQ called trap hands?
2) What kind of player is considered a calling station and WEAK calling station?

Thanks for your patience /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to the forums.
1) You can (and often will) get trapped when you flop a top pair type of hand with those. Example, KT vs AK, flop K73. You have top pair which is difficult to get away from, but you're about a 6 to 1 underdog and will likely lose quite a bit of money.
2) Calling stations are players who are paranoid about being bluffed at. They will call down with an unimproved Ace high hand, just because they think you're bluffing again.
Weak means a player will fold more often than others when facing heat, and only continue with a VERY strong hand.
You can bluff weak players often, but never try to bluff a calling station.

Also, by definition, there is no such thing as a weak calling station.

[Elverian]

I see there has already been reference to the trap hands - never play them to a raise from early position. A late position raise can be with a wider range of hands - but you still need to exercise caution.
Your raise on the flop is fine to see where you stand - after the call you are probably behind, so the check on the turn is good.
You could fold to the river bet, but getting nearly 5:1 you should call. The raise to $0.4 only gets called by hands that beat you, the reraise says you are way behind.
You need to let these hands go, especially on dangerous boards like this one.

[Elverian]

Just an afterthought - if you've got the two Harrington books, reread the section called "the Gap Concept" - I think that is in the first book.
It deals with calling raises, and what your calling requirements should be.

[NiceGerman]

Here is another hand I am unsure of:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($20.90)
NiceGerman ($6.55)
SB ($12.45)
BB ($18.15)
UTG ($1.95)
UTG+1 ($5.20)
MP1 ($9.85)
MP2 ($5.35)

Preflop: NiceGerman is Button with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, NiceGerman calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.25) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $0.2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman raises to $0.4</font>, BB calls $0.20.

Turn: ($1.05) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman bets $0.3</font>, BB calls $0.30.

River: ($1.65) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, NiceGerman checks.

Final Pot: $1.65

[Freelancer]

Ok here we go;

Short version;
1) Preflop call is fine because its a minraise, if UTG made a standard 4xbb raise it would be a fold.
2) Raise bigger on the flop
3) Check behind on the turn is fine
4) Just call the river bet

Long version;
1) When you are beginning you are better of folding KT+, JT+ to a standard raise (infact I am still folding these to a raise) of 4xbb+1x per limper. The problem with these hands is that even IF you hit you'll still have a fairly weak hand and no idea where you stand. So two things could happen;
-You have the best hand and win a small-medium pot
-You have the worst hand and lose a medium-large pot
Do you see where the problem lies?
2) On the flop you have to raise bigger for value, on these limits people don't understand bet sizing properly so they threat a slightly bigger bet the same. You can abuse this by raising a bit more and getting more value from your hands.
3) Checking behind on the turn is standard because the ace severely weakens your hand. You are now splitting with every T and the ace might scare lower PP's. If the turn card was a 4 or 6 or whatever than I can see betting for value against Tx.
4) Your hand isn't that strong, so once you raise you are BLUFFING and not betting for VALUE. I put bluffing and value in caps because its incredibly important to realize what your bets are trying to accomplish. After you raise the the river bet the rest of the action is even more horrid...

[Wolfram]

NiceGerman:
Both hands are awful chip spews. I'd use this rule for now:
If you can't beat top pair with a deuce kicker, then don't put any more money in the pot.

I'm not sure which hand is worse. In the first hand the river betting is absolutely atrocious.

The second hand is so extremely weak. You have an underpair to every single card on the board. Why are you raising? I'm thinking you were trying to bluff him off his hand, but your bets are to small to push anybody of second pair, let alone top pair. But before you start trying to bluff people, you need to know that they are not calling stations. Did you have that read on the BB?

NL is an extremely complex game. I'd actually recommend that you start off by playing some Full Ring Limit while you pick up the basics, like reading the board, betting for value, pot odds and implied odds etc. Then switch back to NL when you're more comfortable.

[NiceGerman]

Wolfram
I was not trolling at all! The only way to learn and get better is to ask for advice, that's what I did. No offense...

[Freelancer]

Hand 2:
Raise EVERY hand you want to play preflop OTB if its folded to you.

what the hell are you trying to do on the flop/turn?

[NiceGerman]

1. Sorry if I sound like a donk, but what exactly does OTB mean? (Wikipedia says its "off track betting" but I guesss that's not quite what you meant)

2. I was indeed trying to bluff. However - as I just learned - my bet was too low for that.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Sorry if I sound like a donk, but what exactly does OTB mean? (Wikipedia says its "off track betting" but I guesss that's not quite what you meant)

2. I was indeed trying to bluff. However - as I just learned - my bet was too low for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
OTB=on the button
Its a good rule of thumb to raise every hand you want to play to 4x bb if your the first one in. (this might different for these games, but its a good thing to get used to)

The next time you are going to play try to never bluff at all. Learn to identify when you can value bet someone and focus solely on this, bluffing requires a lot of things to go right (you need hand reading, reads on the villain, take the board texture in account and a dozen other things) to be profitable. At these limits you can easily be a big winner without bluffing a single time !!


Ps. A value bet is a bet where you want the opponent to call or raise with a worse hand. A bluff is a bet where you want the opponent to fold a BETTER hand.

[NiceGerman]

Is there a similar rule of thumb of how much one should value bet postflop? I used to bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot, is that too low?

[Wolfram]

Sorry about my troll comment. I'm always happy to discuss the game with a fellow student.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a similar rule of thumb of how much one should value bet postflop? I used to bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot, is that too low?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple rule in NL is to always make your bet sizes in relation to the pot.

The "standard" bet size seem to be 3/4th pot size on flop, 2/3rd pot size on turn and 1/2 pot on river. That is what I would bet with TPTK (top pair top kicker) vs a calling station.

I sometimes like to mix this up, depending on the what type of villain I am facing, and also on the texture of the board (i.e. if there are lots of draws or not), but you can't go very wrong with 3/4, 2/3, 1/2.

And one more thing, never min-raise. If you want to know why, then just ask.

[ama0330]

This would be so awesome if it was a troll, probably the best troll ever

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a similar rule of thumb of how much one should value bet postflop? I used to bet 1/2 to 3/4 the pot, is that too low?

[/ QUOTE ]
Bet sizing postflop depends on a ton of different factors, however when your value betting you should bet as big as you think the opponent will call with a hand you beat (yes this means that in very rare circumstances open shoving with TPTK on the flop is good, this doesn't mean its a standard play). Usually you should be betting about 3/4 pot and closer to full pot than half pot. This is especially important on the flop, to illustrate why;
5bb pot on the flop.
You lead for 2.5bb and villain calls.
10bb pot on the turn.
You lead for 5bb and villain calls.
20bb pot on the river
You lead for 10bb and villain calls.

In total you got; 17.5 bb into the pot postflop

Now imagine this;
5bb pot on the flop.
You lead for 5bb and villain calls.
15bb pot on the turn.
You lead for 15bb and villain calls.
45bb pot on the river.
You lead for 45bb and villain calls.

Now you got a amazing 65bb in the pot by doubling the size on each street. Its especially important on the flop because the flop bet determines you bet size later on (if that makes sense), the pot size gets multiplied each time up to the river so if the pot is large on the flop than its colossal on the river. Value betting properly and sizing your bets properly is a HUGE improvement for most beginners.


Your usually better of betting bigger than smaller .

[DGenR8]

On this board (with str8 and boat a DEFINITE possibility) just smooth call the river.

His reraise is screaming monster. Fold to the reraise.

[NiceGerman]

Ok, the 3/4, 2/3, 1/2 rule is easy to remember. What about situations in which you only have second best pair, or top pair but crappy kicker - would I still make a value bet to see where I stand?

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the 3/4, 2/2, 1/2 rule is easy to remember. What about situations in which you only have second best pair, or top pair but crappy kicker - would I still make a value bet to see where I stand?

[/ QUOTE ]
These hands are only a tiny fraction of your profit, I seriously think that if you'd c/f each one of them your barely giving up any ev. Just make sure that your 'never' paying more than a single bet with them (TPcrappy kicker is especially a tricky hand, leading with it and folding to any agression+giving up when called is a fairly standard way of playing it).

[NiceGerman]

With giving up when called you mean I shouldn't continue betting on the turn?

[NiceGerman]

I just had a very interesting hand, what do you guys think about my play?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($8.70)
CO ($15)
Button ($9.85)
SB ($1.65)
BB ($21.70)
NiceGerman ($7.35)
MP1 ($8.55)

Preflop: NiceGerman is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman raises to $0.4</font>, MP1 calls $0.40, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.25) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman bets $0.8</font>, MP1 calls $0.80, BB folds.

Turn: ($2.85) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">NiceGerman bets $1.8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $6.5</font>, NiceGerman calls $4.35 (All-In).

River: ($15.50) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $15.50

[RedJoker]

[ QUOTE ]
With giving up when called you mean I shouldn't continue betting on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes; you should check. If your opponent then makes a strong bet into you on the turn, you should fold.

On your last hand you should bet more on the flop, about $1.

[NiceGerman]

Was it ok that I called his All-In on the turn?

[corsakh]

Bet $1 on teh flop,
check call the turn.

[Warteen]

Third hand looks okay to me.

[NiceGerman]

Well, I am glad to hear that because I in fact lost this hand. He had a straight /images/graemlins/frown.gif Then again, if I had bet 1$ instead of 0.8$ on the flop he might have folded...

[Smilin']

The third hand looks all good to me. I don't mind the somewhat small bet on the flop, unlike others, because

1) the board is dry, meaning that MP1 can't have a strong draw; and

2) you have a bit less than 100 big blinds in your stack, which means that you can easily get all your money in the middle over 3 streets even betting a touch on the small side.

Not that I think betting more on the flop is wrong, I just don't think your smaller bet is wrong either.

Oh, I'd definitely call the all-in too, given that it's 10NL.

The third hand is much more in line with how you want to play than the first two. This sounds bad, but IMO you might be best starting off playing a little weak/tight. Basically, your goal is to wait for a good hand (strong overpair, two pair+) and bet hard; but while you're waiting, give up pretty easily on all the pots where you don't hit hard. So that means 1) don't bluff, and 2) if you have top pair, mediocre kicker or worse, you're not typically going to put more than one pot-sized bet in postflop. So you can bet or call the flop, but then you're in check/fold mode for the turn and river. This isn't a super strategy in all situations, but it's probably about right versus loose passive calling stations--which you can assume is what your 10NL opponents are until they show you different.

[Smilin']

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I am glad to hear that because I in fact lost this hand. He had a straight /images/graemlins/frown.gif Then again, if I had bet 1$ instead of 0.8$ on the flop he might have folded...

[/ QUOTE ]

He couldn't have had a straight when the money went in. If he pushed the turn with 87 and hit his 9 on the river, you made a GREAT call--you win more than 90% of the time! Make a note that in the future you can call him really light, because he's a cash cow.

[Khumalo]

NiceGerman,

I saw you sitting out at a 10NL table. How serious are you about the money involved and learning to play? Are you 'intrigued' by poker because you want to gamble randomly, or do you want to become a reasonably competent player?

If the former, I'll be happy to sit down at the table with you. If the latter, I respectfully recommend getting your ass back down to the $2 table while you internalize and apply such concepts as pot-odds, counting outs, preflop holecard winning percentages, semi-bluffing, table position, board texture, and so on.

Feel free to send inquiries in this general direction.

[NiceGerman]

Kumalo,

I certainly do not want to gamble randomly, in fact the very reason I got interested in poker (after having been invited to a home game at a friend of mine) was the idea of having an edge by considering statistics. (I am currently doing my bioinformatics Phd which is a lot about statistics and probability) So yes, I do want to become a competent player.
BTW, I moved up to the 10NL from 2NL games because it said so in the "Building a bankroll in the micros" beginners intro but I am more than happy to move down again.

[weknowhowtolive]

1. Always buy in for the full amount.

2. Whats your current bankroll size.

3. Do you have any poker books?

4. Do you understand things like pot odds?

[NiceGerman]

1. What do you consider full? I use the default amount given by the pokerstars client, for example on 0.01$/0.02$ I buy in 3$.

2. 40$

3. Harrington on holdem I/II and "The Theory of poker"
I already read the first Harrington book but at that time I could not fully internalize the concepts because I was only playing once a week at a home game. Now with some more hands played, I think I should go back and reread to get more out it.

4. I think I do, it's the odds ratio of the current pot compared to amount I have to invest. So if the current pot is 1$ and I have to call for 0.2$ the pot odds are 5:1, right?

[Panic__NL]

full buyin is in most cases 100 big blinds. so with a bb of 10 cents a full buyin is 10 bucks. Also keep ur stack full, so if you loose a pot rebuy immediately.

[NiceGerman]

My 3$ on 0.02$ tables are ok then (its even 150 big blinds). You said I should replenish my stack after each loss, does that mean I should never go below my initial 3$? I am wondering because I keep seeing many players with stacks below 2$.

BTW: Please don't shoot me but how do I rebuy on pokerstars, I mean where do I have to click? I couldn't find it in the cashier nor does it say "rebuy" anywhere else.

[Triggerle]

The reason you want to always have the maximum buy-in is that you want to win the maximum when you have a monster hand. Of course, occasionally you will lose more also. However, since you want to be a competent player your goal should be to play better than your opponents, in which case you should win more big pots than you lose and thus maximise your profit by always having the maximum buy-in alvailable.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
...how do I rebuy on pokerstars

[/ QUOTE ]
You click on the stack of chips in front of the dealer.

-Always buy in for the maximum amount, for previously stated reasons
-Always reload if you lose more then x% of your stack (e.g. 5-10%). Many players (me included) reload after each hand so that they always have the maximum amount for the next hand.
-When considering what stakes to play you should look at your skill level and your bankroll. Rule of thumb is that you need a minimum of 20 full buyins to play a certain level. for $0.10 that would be $200. This is the minimum if you want to minimize the chance of going bust. For recreational low stakes this isn't as important because most can afford reloading their account for another $50 each month, but if you take poker seriously, then this is a good discipline to practice. It is also very satisfying to build up your roll from scratch without ever having to reload your account.