Open relationships (thread led by cool Enon, not lame me)

[El Diablo]

New batch of thread starters should be enabled soon, sorry for the delay. In the meantime, enon wants to kick off a discussion about the good and bad of open relationships. I'm too lame to have relationships with two girls at the same time, so I'll let him take it from here.

[Enon]

Let me preface this by saying that I’m relatively new to dating in general and I’m 24 years old. I’ve never been in a long term relationship even though I’m a pretty well rounded, happy guy. The main reason for this lack of relationships has been partly shyness and a general tendency to be comfortable by myself.

Over the last year or so I’ve been dating a few people and just recently got involved with a friend and housemate I had known for about a year. She’s 21, mature, cute, and highly intelligent with good communication skills. I decided to make the first move only about 6 weeks before she left for a study abroad program, not coming into the situation with any long-term expectations. I had become a lot closer to her as friends in the months prior and this will sound weird but I couldn’t figure out if I really wanted to get ‘involved’ with her until after I made the first move and realized that it worked really well. We both communicated our expectations and feelings very clearly from the start and both of us were wary of harming the friendship.

Not knowing what would happen after the first night of just some innocent kissing, the relationship got serious quickly and we would spend about every night or every other night together. The connection was intense but I was very aware that she had been in quite a few short relationships over the past two years that usually ended abruptly. I got the impression she was scared of commitment and is definitely suspicious of conventional monogamous relationships. Before she left for the study abroad program, I was clear that I didn’t care about defining things until she got back and it was clear that we both really wanted to resume things when she got back.

With only a month until her return, I’m trying to think through and anticipate how an open relationship would work for us. I definitely would like to continue dating other girls and I suspect she wouldn’t agree to total exclusivity anyways. I’m not a possessive guy and don’t get jealous much (I certainly don’t care if she has protected sex with someone else) but I’m concerned that if she were to get seriously involved with another guy, the lack of attention she would be able to devote to me would be difficult/upsetting, especially if I’m not involved with anyone else at the same time.

So I’ve written all this to ask the forum for advice about my situation, to talk about their experiences with open relationships and to direct me to some good resources for learning more about them. I get the impression that most couples wouldn’t be able to handle it emotionally or communicate openly enough to make it work. I think it’s quite possible we could make this work but it’s so difficult to anticipate the emotions that might come up, even though it sounds cool on a theoretical level.

[El Diablo]

enon,

Is she going to be a housemate again upon her return?

[Enon]

Yes, but I don't live there anymore. I bought my own pad /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But I do visit the house often as I have many friends there.

[nadical]

id try to avoid it if you go over there often cause when it goes sour which it will its gonna be really awkwared when you go over there again. It will be the whole "hey i used to [censored] you every weekend and now we watch each other get ass and think its cool" and in my experience that just never works out well. One of you will start getting more attatched than the other and itll start getting weird and super complicated.

[adsman]

Enron,

If this worked it would be a really cool thing. It never does though, but by all means give it a try. You have to find these things out for yourself, and who knows, you might succeed.

[Banks2334]

Enon,
If you are both fine with seeing other people then do so. Over time you will either want to become "exclusive" with each other or you will drift apart and find someone better.
Better to be out in the open about it than have someone cheat on the other.

[Enon]

Let me clarify also that I'm very interested in the possible arrangments and restrictions people make in open relationships. I have a friend who has an arrangment with his girlfriend where both of them can only make out with another person one time and it has to be above the belt.

[HoosierAlum]

It would be a big mistake to have an open relationship as your first "real" relationship. Open relationships should only be attempted by those who are very experienced.

From your description, it sounds like you are a newbie at dating. You are much better off trying the traditional approach because you lack the experience needed to make an open relationship succeed.

[Vehn]

I dont get it. Why would you tell or talk about dating other girls with this chick? If the subject comes up (which from your post is unlikely), don't talk about it.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who has an arrangment with his girlfriend where both of them can only make out with another person one time and it has to be above the belt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forsee a "but his belt was around his kneess" argument arising here...

As far as your situation Enon, as many have already said, tread very lightly. The reason f buddies work is that neither cares that much about the other, and so its cool if you call her up and here some guys voice in the background while you're talking.

The almost inevitable problem is that its incredibly difficult to be on the same level of feelings with someone else--one of you will like the other more, and the greater the difference, the more likely for things to blowup in your face.

You've got to figure this out on your own, and maybe your situation is unique...but can you really say you wouldn't mind having SOME sort of feelings for this girl, hooking up/having sex, and having to coordinate nights with her so she can hookup with other guys too?

Good luck with all of it, and keep us updated.

[Los Feliz Slim]

I would never, ever, ever, be able to do this with someone I really cared about. Not when I was 24, and not now. But, perhaps my inability can expose some of the things you'd need to be able to do to maintain such an arrangement. For starters, this really needs to be something that YOU are OK with, not just something you're doing to keep her around. For all kinds of reasons, if you do something that's completely at odds with your personal morals and preferences simply for her, you're screwed.

Second, your self-regard had better be rock solid. Any doubts you have about yourself are going to be exacerbated by this situation. If you're prone to self-doubt, I can't imagine how this could work.

Logistically, being in the same location could definitely be awkward at the very least. It's one thing to have her porking other dudes, but having to meet them, etc, would just be unbearable, I would think.

The more I think about this, the more I'm sure it would be a total disaster. At the VERY least, it would be a lot more work than a "normal" relationship, IMO. So I guess it's not impossible, but yikes, good luck.

[octopi]

I was in an open relationship for close to a year, as the second woman. I don't know how much I can provide in terms of "the other side", but I can share with you some thoughts I have on the process and some troubles we all went through. I guess I have a question (and this may negate most of my comments, but I'll type them anyhow) though: is this an actual open relationship with dating, or are you both just granted the ability to [censored] around?

Although there is quite a back story (and after story!) I'll try to be brief...but if the mechanics of the relationship might be of interest to you, I can answer questions.

I got to be friends with the guy first, via a messageboard. He was travelling with his long term girlfriend at the time, and we often chatted on MSN. When he arrived home with her, we met up and things went well on a friends level. Initially, I think he was looking for someone to date on the side because the other girl had recently undergone a huge physical change and was interested in also dating other boys. Good for the goose/good for the gander, in a way. He was very good at romancing me, and initiated things with me in telling me about the open relationship. I was very VERY single at the time, in a weird headspace, and the relationship appealed to me for many reasons.

Anyhow, the relationship went on for quite some time. A lot longer than I thought it would, actually. We had 'date nights', and I also spent quite a bit of time with the other girl, but usually with the guy as well. I talked to her about her side relationships (none were quite as indepth as mine and her boyfriend's though) and usually things weren't too awkward.

I guess my main points would be these:

- Attention! While I believe sex is just sex, there is also the question of emotional attachment. There will come a time when one partner may need you (or perceive!) they need you more. You should be able to handle this and any emotional flare ups that occur. I think you are both extremely new to this relationship, and you might want to get to know what her needs are first on a 'normal' level..and also recognize what your needs are. Ground rules, I guess?

- Power. I was in a unique position because I always thought that the other girl was "number one". I never initiated any 'power struggles' or any drama. They were such a great couple, I didn't want to mess that up. Main occasions/holidays were their domain first. She got first choice of activities on the weekend, and if we were on a date and she needed him, he left me for her a few times. I was extremely submissive...and that was extremely rare for me and it may never happen again. The relationship lasted a lot longer than it would have because of that, to be honest. She did express concerns that I was going to steal the boy away, but I don't think I could have stood him if we were just dating eachother. Again, an extremely unique situation.

- Discussion. Will you talk about the side people? Will she? Will you all hang out at the soda shoppe and be best friends forever? Some people want to know all the messy details, some are fine in the dark. You both need to know the comfort level to avoid stepping on toes, I think.

- Freedom. Just because you can fly, doesn't mean you have to. Don't try forcing this on every potential girl you meet, it seriously takes a special person to recognize they are entering into a relationship like that, and you may be hard pressed to find someone.

I read a few books on the topic, bits from each were useful, not enough to really recommend them. The best book was probably "The Ethical S1ut" by Easton and Liszt (I tried to link it to Amazon, but the censors weren't having it). It sort of discusses open relationships and swinging...with long term relationships put first and foremost. Deals with jealousy, separating love and sex, privacy, co operation etc. Also: a point rarely discussed in terms of open relationships...having strong morals! It's a bit hippy dippy for me, but brought up some often missed points.

Anyhow, today, I doubt I would ever do the same thing again (either be the main or second woman). The fall out from the open relationship kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. I have been in a pretty secure relationship for two years and have considered on the side sexual exploits (for my current partner, not for me), but am honest with myself to realize I can't handle that just right now. It seems too scary a world to get sucked into again. Good luck to you, sir!

[AZK]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m not a possessive guy and don’t get jealous much (I certainly don’t care if she has protected sex with someone else)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this to me/teach me this. I don't consider myself jealous or possessive. I have always been self-confident (bordering cocky) and head strong, I don't get jealous of other people because I am emotionally/mentally/physically in the best shape of my life right now, I'm financially secure thanks to poker, and I'm relatively smart (relative to my medical school class/friends). It is very difficult for me to look at an individual on an everyday basis and have feelings of jealousy or envy creep across my mind. I don't mean to brag or sound like a dick, but because I am running it right now, I don't look at a single classmate/friend and think, wow, I wish my life was less like mine and more like theirs. I think I'm just in a really happy place now. I have a type A personality and while in the past I have not always been in this happy place setting, or there have been varying degrees of it, I have never been ok with sharing a girl. I'm telling you all this so you can't chalk up my feelings of anger/bitterness/rage at the thought of a girl I am sleeping with also sleeping with other guys to a lack of self confidence or self-happiness.

I just don't see how this doesn't bother you.

If I am sleeping with a girl and I know she is sleeping around it aggravates the [censored] out of me to the point where I can no longer sleep with her. I am disgusted. I am talking about girls that you are actually seeing, not casual affairs. I don't really have that many one night stands (read: none) and basically just have spurts of casual flings that either develop into something or fizzle. I am incapable of having numerous flings at the same time, just becuase due to my personality I tend to get wrapped up in one thing at a time...maybe I've just been "unlucky" all these years, but most times when I start something, it's cause I like a girl, and if I like her, I'm not really thinking about other girls. This has obviously resulted in a lot less sex than most people have and a few botched opportunities that in hindsight I regret...but still, I just can't do it.

Explain to me how you can be ok with sleeping with a girl who is also sleeping with someone else. I'm genuinely curious about the personality that is required to handle this or the thought pattern behind it. I like my black/white world just fine, but wouldn't mind introducing a little grey into it.

[highhustla]

AZK, agree w/ your posts 100%. I am 24 and could never do this unless I truly didn't give a [censored] about any of the bitches.

[DpR]

Wow, Enon, IMO this is a terrible idea. We can IM for details.

[ChicagoTroy]

I've done this. It's relatively easy except for breaking up, since it's obvious you don't want to see other people, you just want to stop seeing her.

[Paluka]

I'm also impressed that you can claim to actually really like the girl and not care if she bangs other people. I could never do that, but I'm actualy not sure I'd be happy if I could.

[freemoney]

open relationships are a really bad idea, they never work. much better off just not defining it. by having an open relationship you create rules that people feel no obligation to follow and someone ends up being worse off because it.

[El Diablo]

AZK,

I agree with everything in your post and feel very much the same way. I just can't relate to Enon's concept of seeing a girl on Monday and Friday and caring about her at least to some degree, and being completely cool with the fact that she banged some other dude on Wednesday.

However, I do have friends who have multiple girls who they have had casual long term relationships with it, so it can definitely work. I just haven't seen it work when these people find a girl that they really, really like. On the other hand, while I don't have close friends who fall into this category, I know of many people in SF who have long-term "committed" open relationships, ie: where they live with the people for years but the whole time they also have sex w/ other people.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

Open relationships are one of the most difficult things in the world. Someone inevitably gets jealous and can't handle it.

I personally can't do it. If I find a girl who I have a great connection with... I just go with it. And if the physical side of the equation is working, why look eslewhere.

From your original description it seems like you may be a litle intimidated by this girl... which is usually what leads to the "weaker" (no offense) party agreeing to an open relationship.

[The Yugoslavian]

If you want to have multiple relationships then simply make that part of your reality. If you're confident and solid about having multiple g/fs then they'll just go along.

Yugoslav

[milesdyson]

Basically an open relationship is the same as casual dating except with a few added characteristics.

1. You aren't "single" and you'd be lying to a single girl if you told her you were.
2. You will have to break up to end the relationship. When you're just dating you can let things die down.
3. The chance you find out your "partner" is having sex is way higher than if you're just dating.

I mean, what's the point? Why would you choose to be in this type of relationship? Is it more emotionally satisfying to you somehow? Will she not be okay with doing stuff with you if you're not bf/gf?

I can't see the benefits of this over just dating.

[AZK]

sex.

[milesdyson]

Wasn't he having sex with this girl before?

Do some girls actually say this?

"Look, I won't have sex with you unless we call eachother boyfriend and girlfriend. If you will commit to that, we can have sex with eachother. Oh and also anyone else lol."

[Clayton]

I have never understood this concept, it seems to invite competition.

Other guy hits on your gf, your gf lets things develop because you and your gf are "open relationship", things allow to develop between those two such that your gf realizes that things are "open" between you two because bonds are not strong enough. she decides other guy does more for her than you, and GG you.

additionally, I just couldnt see myself being with anyone who isn't totally committed to me. a huge basis of attraction lies with the other party being attracted to me both on a conversational level and intimately, perhaps moreso than any other trait. for that to be taken to a level where she needs other men to satisfy her, kills everything.

[Caldarooni]

All,

Most seem to be looking at this from the relationship standpoint, but what about the sexual side?

Is it possible you both can experience an aspect of sex not available in monogamous relationships?

What about relationships where you share sexual partners? Such that the experience is one you share together. I am suggesting a level of sexuality only possible when you combine love with orgy like events.

Since most seem to state that they cannot fathom their partner with another (even though most have had many partners before you), I suggest we set this aside for the moment and focus on the possible advantages/growth to one's sexual spirit with an open relationship.

I realize I might be describing more of a swinger type lifestyle which may not be appropriate for this thread.

-Calda

[Clayton]

A swinger lifestyle is definitely what you're referring to Caldarooni, and my only experience on the matter is what I saw on the topic with an MTV "True Life".

I get the impression that the swinger lifestyle is not something you learn. You are either an individual who does not mind it (even encourages it), or you are an individual who becomes pale at the sheer thought of your partner being sexually involved with another man.

Now, where that translates to a broader aspect, the relationship-level one, I dunno. I've always thought that the open-relationship thing is generally weak and will lead to a break-up. I've yet to know a friend who has gone through an open relationship that has come out of it with said "partner" as their significant other.

Enon has to ask himself how long this plan of his he expects to work.

[Caldarooni]

Perhaps a new swinger thread would be more appropriate, but more broadly I wonder how people view their sexual growth? And how important is? etc.

This thread at least started this thought process.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be a big mistake to have an open relationship as your first "real" relationship. Open relationships should only be attempted by those who are very experienced.

From your description, it sounds like you are a newbie at dating. You are much better off trying the traditional approach because you lack the experience needed to make an open relationship succeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, hopefully we can kick this discussion back into gear now that I'm back from commerce and have some energy for this.

Although I've had few romantic relationships, I'm a lot more mature than this history might suggest. It seems to me that the likelihood of some type of open relationship succeeding would be based a lot more on both of our openness and honesty in communication and our tendencies for neediness in relationships. We are both very well suited for some alternative to strict monogamy.

I may not have communicated this well enough in my original post but there is a high likihood that if she returns and we pick up where we left off, she would not become exclusive with me if I asked for it.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get it. Why would you tell or talk about dating other girls with this chick? If the subject comes up (which from your post is unlikely), don't talk about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

She told me in email about dating guys on her trip and it didn't bother me. She's having a good time and I expected her to date. Thinking about her being physical with another guy doesn't bother me just as thinking about her being physical in the past with a few our mutual friends doesn't either.

I told her through email recently about a cute girl I met and got a number from at a party recently and she is genuinely excited for me and wants to hear how it goes. When we were friends for a long time we talked with each other about people we were dating and it feels good to continue that. I still need to call this girl and make a date.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who has an arrangment with his girlfriend where both of them can only make out with another person one time and it has to be above the belt.

[/ QUOTE ]

The almost inevitable problem is that its incredibly difficult to be on the same level of feelings with someone else--one of you will like the other more, and the greater the difference, the more likely for things to blowup in your face.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you are describing relationships in general. People in open relationships are forced to openly acknowledge and talk about these imbalances.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
For starters, this really needs to be something that YOU are OK with, not just something you're doing to keep her around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree completely. If I’m not honest with myself or her this could be a total disaster. As I’ve said in a few ways already, I’m prepared to try some arrangement that I’m comfortable with and if it doesn’t work well for either of us, we can talk about it and change it. This could just be a temporary thing until we both realize we want to make it exclusive or possibly return to being friends.

[Enon]

octopi -

Wow, lots of really good stuff in there to think about. I went out and picked up the book you recommended. I'm really enjoying the chapter about dealing with jealous or possesive feelings. The book applies to many types of relationships and I like that. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’m not a possessive guy and don’t get jealous much (I certainly don’t care if she has protected sex with someone else)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm just in a really happy place now. I have a type A personality and while in the past I have not always been in this happy place setting, or there have been varying degrees of it, I have never been ok with sharing a girl. I'm telling you all this so you can't chalk up my feelings of anger/bitterness/rage at the thought of a girl I am sleeping with also sleeping with other guys to a lack of self confidence or self-happiness.

I just don't see how this doesn't bother you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I have never shared a girl yet either so there is no way to be sure how I will feel. I know that thinking about her past lovers and her current ones while she is away doesn’t make me jealous. Then again, both of these scenarios don’t threaten our relationship because they are in the past or will be soon enough.

The main thing I’m worried about is not getting the amount of attention I need if she were to spend time with someone else. On the other hand, she is a very outgoing person with lots of friends and a very busy life, so I was already dealing with this issue and I handled it pretty well. I’m the kind of person who got very comfortable being by myself a long time ago and that probably was one of the reasons I didn’t get more proactive about dating until the last few years. Of course, being consumed by poker didn’t help
.
[ QUOTE ]

Explain to me how you can be ok with sleeping with a girl who is also sleeping with someone else. I'm genuinely curious about the personality that is required to handle this or the thought pattern behind it. I like my black/white world just fine, but wouldn't mind introducing a little grey into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect I wouldn’t be able to handle her having another regular lover but if she occasionally made out with someone and still gave me all the attention and friendship that I needed and was honest about all her exploits, I would probably be fine with it. I’m not sure where I’d want to draw the line and it’s so hard to anticipate. I need to repeat once again that a totally open relationship isn't what I'd choose but I'm not about to give up a great relationship if she needs a few less restrictions of a traditional monogamous relationship while we both figure out what we want.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]

Since most seem to state that they cannot fathom their partner with another (even though most have had many partners before you), I suggest we set this aside for the moment and focus on the possible advantages/growth to one's sexual spirit with an open relationship.

I realize I might be describing more of a swinger type lifestyle which may not be appropriate for this thread.

-Calda

[/ QUOTE ]

For starters, an open relationship approached with careful consideration for each other would foster a higher level of honesty and clearer communication of ones fears and needs (including sexual needs) that might translate to a stronger bond between the main couple. Here is a passage from the book 'the ethical s lut' that was recommended earlier in the thread:

"Sometimes jealousy has at its roots feelings of grief and loss, which can be harder to interpret. We have both been taught by our culture that when our partner has sex with another, we have lost something. Not to sound dumb, but we are confused. What have we lost? When our partner comes home from a hot date with another, often she is excited, turned on, andhas some new ideas she would like to try out at home. We fail to see what we lose in this situation."

[Howard Treesong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’m not a possessive guy and don’t get jealous much (I certainly don’t care if she has protected sex with someone else)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain this to me/teach me this. I don't consider myself jealous or possessive. I have always been self-confident (bordering cocky) and head strong, I don't get jealous of other people because I am emotionally/mentally/physically in the best shape of my life right now, I'm financially secure thanks to poker, and I'm relatively smart (relative to my medical school class/friends). It is very difficult for me to look at an individual on an everyday basis and have feelings of jealousy or envy creep across my mind. I don't mean to brag or sound like a dick, but because I am running it right now, I don't look at a single classmate/friend and think, wow, I wish my life was less like mine and more like theirs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the root of the issue is in the last sentence here. I have not once in my life had this thought (with the possible exception, of course, of every time I see a picture of Patrik Antonius). Don't get me wrong, here: I don't object to that world view at all. It's just that I think that any emotional comparison of yourself to your peers is entirely inconsistent with the attitude required to make an open work.

I had one many years ago. I could make the girl laugh whenever I wanted to, which made her happy, but she was sick in to martial arts and wanted to continue an off-and-on thing with her Wu Tang instructor. I knew him slighly; he was a pretty good guy. I knew she and I weren't going to get married or anything, and I knew it made her happy to be with the guy from time to time, so what did I care? The only time it actually bothered me was one night when I was out at a restaurant and for some odd reason became hornier than I've ever been in my life. I knew she was with him and was furious and frustrated because of the immediate conflict.

Hmmm. As I think about it now, perhaps I was OK with it because the other guy was a Wu Tang weapons stud and could have torn me to shreds in seconds, even though he was only about 5'5", 130#.

[MaxPower]

In order to have an open relationship, I think you have to be in a relationship. It doesn't sound like you are. I'm talking about a relationship where it is normally understood to be exclusive by both people. It sounds like you just want to date a bunch of people until you eventually get into an exclusive relationship with one of them.

[The Yugoslavian]

The best way to have open relationships is to simply not BRING IT UP and don't pigeon hole yourself into exclusivity. The don't ask/don't tell concept can be your best friend.

Yugoslav

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
The best way to have open relationships is to simply not BRING IT UP and don't pigeon hole yourself into exclusivity. The don't ask/don't tell concept can be your best friend.

Yugoslav

[/ QUOTE ]

This advice is horrible for my situation. We are good friends and are really close and you suggest just ignoring the status of our relationship. Your suggestion sounds better for girls you are just having casual sex with and don't care that much about.

[AZK]

It sounds like you are doing this because it's what she wants. Rather, it's the only way you can be with this girl and you are willing to give up the exclusivity of the relationship if it still means you can hit it (for lack of a better word). This is great in theory, but again, most people reach a breaking point. This works really well when you DON'T CARE about the girl, as in, she could get hit by a truck tomorrow and your life wouldn't be any different (aside from the feelings of sorrow on the loss of human life). It might be a personality flaw, I think I get serious quickly or in regards to girls, but after a few weeks of being with a girl, I care about them and not in a puppy dog kind of way. Because of this, after a few weeks I could NEVER share a girl.

It's funny this thread comes up now as I am kinda head over heels for a girl right now who has been in an on/off long distance relationship for the last 3 years. She is currently on but I have been a minor bump in the road. We've been good friends for a few months, so like you it is more than just a physical thing. She refuses to leave the other guy (we've been together so long and have so much history" - yes girls are naive and illogical) and for the first time in my life I am trying to convince myself that I can break them up and figure out a way to "win" her. The idea of a casual sex relationship with her has crossed my mind, after all, all things being equal I have proximity, I don't see how I can lose with this on my side. I have never been the 2nd guy in a situation like this and never really planned on it, trying to convince her to leave this guy is sort of akin to trying to get girls to sleep with you once you are back at your place after a night of boozing. I've never done this and can't imagine why i'd start now, if she doesn't want to sleep with me, why the [censored] would I want to sleep with her? I digress.

Bottom line, The problem with casual sex is that it isn't casual when you like/care about the other person. You clearly do since you guys are "friends", you can tell yourself all you want that you don't get phased by hearing her talk about other dudes, but that's because you don't see her and them on an everyday basis. When she comes back and you two hang out and then the next night she is at someone else's place you are going to be left wondering. This is one of the worst feelings in the world and it will eat you from the inside.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a friend who has an arrangment with his girlfriend where both of them can only make out with another person one time and it has to be above the belt.

[/ QUOTE ]

The almost inevitable problem is that its incredibly difficult to be on the same level of feelings with someone else--one of you will like the other more, and the greater the difference, the more likely for things to blowup in your face.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you are describing relationships in general. People in open relationships are forced to openly acknowledge and talk about these imbalances.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey Enon,

I'd agree...although I don't think that it would be all that easy (not saying thats what you're saying).

Take a situation thats similar to one I was in at one point. I had more feelings for the girl than she had back towards me. It was openly discussed. It was horrible.

Imagine finding yourself in a place where you think things are good, but you feel more for your friend than she does for you. Its really going to be hard to say "maybe we could spend more time together" and her to answer "actually i'd like to spend less as I really like this other guy". It'd be extremely difficult to be friends after an open type thing.

It almost sounds like you're interested in this and want to try it. If she does too, then good luck! It sounds like you're a smart guy and realize a lot of what could potentially go wrong...I think you just really need to come to grips with the fact that this will most likely not work out perfectly, and that your friendship may never be as good afterwards (no matter how good things are short term).

But like I said, good luck with whatever you do, and let us know, i'm curious how it'll turn out.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to sound dumb, but we are confused. What have we lost? When our partner comes home from a hot date with another, often she is excited, turned on, andhas some new ideas she would like to try out at home. We fail to see what we lose in this situation."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're in a situation where you don't care about being the main and most important part of your partners life, emotionally, physically, and so on, then you haven't lost anything. If she's someone you can truly enjoy all the positives from (har har, as long as its not HIV), and not have any of the need for exclusivity, then yeah that makes sense.

The thing is, the quote about "something new and exciting" does apply to most people...but generally in a "i learned this in a past relationship". I mean, dating someone who has no gag reflex could be incredibly fun, but its a little different when its something thats just happened over time in the past, and when its the guy she's been practicing on all week who can't hang out saturday...

[Falang]

Good thread.

I'm currently dating a girl in an open relationship. We never really defined it that way but there really isn't any other way I could approach it and keep my sanity.

She is by far the hottest girl I have ever dated or had any relations with. When I met her she had a boyfriend and it took two months for me to hang out with her for the first time. It took another month for me to get her alone/do anything physical.

She finally broke up with him and is now with me but from observing and talking to her it is pretty clear that she has several guys who she talks to etc.

I considered all of this when getting involved and just realized that the pro's outweigh the con's and I'm cool with it.

I also have unspoken permission to do whatever I want with other girls, and I take advantage of this. I get the special occasions and see her most nights of the week, but what she does when she is out with her 'friends' etc I really try not to think too much about.

For me the key to making this work is in constantly mentally coaching myself and tempering my expectations.

It is still very new and I'm by no means claiming victory, I might yet go nuts over this, but it seems alright so far.

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
Good thread.

I'm currently dating a girl in an open relationship. We never really defined it that way but there really isn't any other way I could approach it and keep my sanity.

She is by far the hottest girl I have ever dated or had any relations with. When I met her she had a boyfriend and it took two months for me to hang out with her for the first time. It took another month for me to get her alone/do anything physical.

She finally broke up with him and is now with me but from observing and talking to her it is pretty clear that she has several guys who she talks to etc.

I considered all of this when getting involved and just realized that the pro's outweigh the con's and I'm cool with it.

I also have unspoken permission to do whatever I want with other girls, and I take advantage of this. I get the special occasions and see her most nights of the week, but what she does when she is out with her 'friends' etc I really try not to think too much about.

For me the key to making this work is in constantly mentally coaching myself and tempering my expectations.

It is still very new and I'm by no means claiming victory, I might yet go nuts over this, but it seems alright so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, the difference here is that you're not great friends with her, and you're basically not thinking about the other guys banging her when you're not around. Enon seems to want to have all of this out in the open, which i think would be very hard to handle emotionally in almost all circumstances.

I think your situation is easier to deal with...this girl sounds hot enough that you're just happy to have whatever you can get...enjoy it!

[DLizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
(I certainly don’t care if she has protected sex with someone else)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe you. I could believe that you think this, but if it was actually true for anyone, even the least jealous person ever I wouldn't believe them. This is assuming that you care about this girl. If you don't care at all it must be like the coldest pure [censored]-buddy relationship possible, and even then it would be upsetting to know about I think.

[Enon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(I certainly don’t care if she has protected sex with someone else)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe you. I could believe that you think this, but if it was actually true for anyone, even the least jealous person ever I wouldn't believe them. This is assuming that you care about this girl. If you don't care at all it must be like the coldest pure [censored]-buddy relationship possible, and even then it would be upsetting to know about I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

This relationship is meaningful to me and I'm trying to be as honest with myself as I can. Only time will tell whether this will actually happen and if I can handle it.

[Phil153]

I don't have any personal experience with open relationships, but some friends in long terms relationships have done it.

From what I gather, one of the tricks is to have exclusive sexual boundaries. Stuff like you're the only guy who's allowed to raw dog her. Or have his nuts licked. Or whatever works for you. Something to keep your sex special and give you an edge over any of the guys she [censored]. This helps to stop you going crazy that has another guy has been there - because you both know you're the only guy who gets to do that special something with her. And you have similar rules for you with other girls, something that doesn't diminish your pleasure too much, obviously. Another important point is to keep the communication going. Don't hide stuff. You're still in an semi-exclusive relationship, while allowing each other to experience greater variety and pleasure. Work on keeping that illusion going.

Having said all that, I agree with others that you're better off doing a mongamous relationship. Things change once those boundaries are crossed, and you might not like it. Two of my friends in very long term relationships ultimately regretted going down that road.

[lucksack]

Phil's sexual boundaries tip sounds good to me. Also, I think it would be a good idea to only be allowed to have sex with strangers (one night stands or prostitutes) and only once with each one to avoid any feelings from coming into play. Any comments on this one?

[AZK]

That is retarded. How many times in the heat of a hook up when all of a sudden one party is like no, no, no I only do that with my REALLY significant other. Get real. That doesn't happen. They end up doing it and then lying about it or deceiving themselves into thinking they didn't really cross the boundaries.

[thedustbustr]

I agree with azk - creating rules is going to beget broken rules which leads to concealed feelings and deceit and hurt.

"Do what you feel is appropriate, don't lie."

Of course, not talking about encounters with outsiders probably goes a long way in preventing jealousy, but thats more of an approach to open LDRs. Maybe it applies here too - I couldn't see myself in an open relationship unless it was an LDR.

[lucksack]

wtf, how could you ever have problem following a simple rule like that

[Chaostracize]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like you are doing this because it's what she wants. Rather, it's the only way you can be with this girl and you are willing to give up the exclusivity of the relationship if it still means you can hit it (for lack of a better word). This is great in theory, but again, most people reach a breaking point. This works really well when you DON'T CARE about the girl, as in, she could get hit by a truck tomorrow and your life wouldn't be any different (aside from the feelings of sorrow on the loss of human life). It might be a personality flaw, I think I get serious quickly or in regards to girls, but after a few weeks of being with a girl, I care about them and not in a puppy dog kind of way. Because of this, after a few weeks I could NEVER share a girl.

It's funny this thread comes up now as I am kinda head over heels for a girl right now who has been in an on/off long distance relationship for the last 3 years. She is currently on but I have been a minor bump in the road. We've been good friends for a few months, so like you it is more than just a physical thing. She refuses to leave the other guy (we've been together so long and have so much history" - yes girls are naive and illogical) and for the first time in my life I am trying to convince myself that I can break them up and figure out a way to "win" her. The idea of a casual sex relationship with her has crossed my mind, after all, all things being equal I have proximity, I don't see how I can lose with this on my side. I have never been the 2nd guy in a situation like this and never really planned on it, trying to convince her to leave this guy is sort of akin to trying to get girls to sleep with you once you are back at your place after a night of boozing. I've never done this and can't imagine why i'd start now, if she doesn't want to sleep with me, why the [censored] would I want to sleep with her? I digress.

Bottom line, The problem with casual sex is that it isn't casual when you like/care about the other person. You clearly do since you guys are "friends", you can tell yourself all you want that you don't get phased by hearing her talk about other dudes, but that's because you don't see her and them on an everyday basis. When she comes back and you two hang out and then the next night she is at someone else's place you are going to be left wondering. This is one of the worst feelings in the world and it will eat you from the inside.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is that you're situation is so much different than Enon's. You are coming from the situation developing feelings before you've had any kind of physical relationship, but Enon had the physical relationship before he started having feelings. The difference between the two is enormous in my opinion, because (for me, at least) once you've had that physical it's a lot easier to be like "whatever, I can have it whenever I want" as opposed to "damn, X's boyfriend, he can have it whenever he wants", so you're coming at this situation from an entirely different perspective.

In terms of this type of relationship, I believe it can work but it teeters on such a thing line. The biggest problem you are going to have, is when you want to see your girl, x, but she's off with some other guy. What you have to make sure you don't do, is go off and boink girl, y, to spite girl x. That's when things get messed up because you start resenting x for hooking up with someone else (when that's not even the issue.. it's the issue of her prioritizing someone else over you). And then of course you get those feelings and hostility and it's as good as over.

And this situation will definitely come up.

But, for you Ari, I agree with you in your situation that it absolutely cannot work. It's not that you are a jealous guy, it's just that you are coming into this developing strong emotions before anything has even happened. Not only that you are facing some serious outside resistance. If I was in your current position there's no way I'd want to "share" a girl, because I'm already in the position that I talked about where you want to be with x, but she's with someone else. And not only that, it's that perpetual situation since she's, essentially, in a constant state of girlfriend-hood. Or something like that.

All I'm saying is that if you look at this from different standpoints it can seem like the greatest thing or the worst, most disrepsectful thing. The fact is, it really does depend a lot on each person's mental fortitude, and as long as you are both honest (key word here, if you are friends, then there cannot be any lies... the reason why "cheating" as we know it is regarded so distastefully) and you both know exactly where you stand, the situation can absolutely work. But as soon as you lose respect for x, or start lying, then it mirrors exactly some dude cheating on his girlfriend, and that's not what this situation is.

I think I covered most of what I wanted to cover.

[SA125]

There's no reason to look for definition/boundaries early on. In fact it can create problems where there wouldn't have been any. Just go with the flow.

As time passes, it'll be clearer what the realities are. Who wants more/less/the same time etc. Relationships are like glasses of water, they find their own levels.

Bottom line is that looking to define something that hasn't really had a chance to happen yet isn't a good idea.

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
That is retarded. How many times in the heat of a hook up when all of a sudden one party is like no, no, no I only do that with my REALLY significant other. Get real. That doesn't happen. They end up doing it and then lying about it or deceiving themselves into thinking they didn't really cross the boundaries.

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends on what kind of people you are. If you're narcissistic college students just out for experience, or horny shallow sex fiends looking for sexual adventures, or mature and open minded, then yeah, boundaries are retarded. Same if you're f-buddies.

But if you're in some kind of meaningful relationship with a possible future in mind and both want to have some fun, or if you're the quieter, more reflective type like OP seems to be, then boundaries can really help. I've seen them work.

[Enon]

A lot has transpired since this girl (let's call her Kate) returned about 20 days ago.

While she was away for about 3 months, we remained in email contact and I was very honest with her about how much I missed her, even though I knew this would probably make her uncomfortable since I suspected she wasn't feeling as strongly about me while she was away. For my own mental health, I needed to let her know this and she really appreciated my honesty and my ability to articulate how I was feeling, although she couldn’t respond in kind.

The day she got back, I picked her up at the airport with a mutual friend and I got a lukewarm reception. Kate completely wears her emotions on her sleeve and it is always very easy for me to pick up on how she is feeling. I figured she was apprehensive about seeing me and dealing with all my intense feelings for her, not to mention just getting adjusted back to her old life.

After I brought her back to her house (where many of our mutual friends live), I finally got a moment alone with her in her room. After being away for 3 months, I had a hard time balancing my eagerness to want to immediately talk through things and just letting her settle in and not want to rush her into anything. Nevertheless, I couldn’t help myself and asked if it would be weird if I kissed her. She said she didn’t mind and we had a good moment. She needed some time alone so I came over later that night and after some more awkwardness, we caught up for a while, got comfortable with each other again and I spent the night. All in all, the strong connection was still there and it was a huge relief that her feelings for me came back so quickly.

Since she’s been back, she has been very busy as usual seeing friends, taking on house projects and hasn’t been able to spend that much time with me. Since I don’t live in the same house as her anymore, we haven’t spent as much time together as I would like. Most of the time we’ve spent together has been really great but I didn’t want to bring up the status of our relationship until more time had passed and we both had a better idea of what we wanted.

Last weekend we had a great bike ride and I cooked up a curry dinner with fresh vegetables from a local farmers market. We had a really good time together but the next few days I came over to the house to see my other friends and she felt uncomfortable and pressured to spend time with me when she wasn’t in the mood. It is such an emotional rollercoaster being so well received one day and then the next getting the vibe that she doesn’t want to be around me at all.

A few nights ago, she made plans to hang out and talk with me. I came over and she seems kind of nervous and asks me how I feel about her. I tell her that I care about her a lot but that I don’t understand why she is so cold to me some days. She lets me know that it is because of my unexpected visits to the house and feels pressure to hang out when I’m over and guilty about it when she doesn’t have the energy for it. She goes on to tell me that although she really cares about me, she doesn’t think we are compatible enough to be an exclusive couple and wants to remain friends and continue our physical relationship. I shrug my shoulders with a smile as if to ask, ‘well then, what’s the difference between this definition and what we have now?’ She made it clear that she would like to be able to date other people, which was assumed was ok this short time we’ve been together anyways.

Although slightly hurt that I didn’t measure up high enough to her expectations of a boyfriend (which she’s never really had, only dated people for about 2 months), I sincerely agreed that I see the same incompatibility (a difference in personality) that she sees. I was just relieved to finally know where I stood with her and that she wanted to continue this relationship, which is undoubtedly more than simply just friends who like to mess around from time to time. She has commitment issues that I’ve known about for a while and whatever way she frames this relationship is fine by me as long as I can continue seeing her as I’ve been doing.

After some more talking, we snuggled and felt really good about the clarity of communication and the mutual understanding we came to. I ending up spending the night and we lavished each other with compliments and she told me that she really loved me. I wasn’t expecting to hear that, even though it really felt like an in the moment appreciation thing and not the serious I Love You and want to have your kids sentiment.

Over the last few days, I have thought and talked with a lot of friends about our conversation that night and tried to get more clarity on what I really want. Although I really value the connection we have as friends and lovers, there are also a lot of difficulties in our interactions that are becoming clearer now. I would like the freedom to continue dating other people and simultaneously continue this thing with Kate.

With this said, I would like to see Kate on a regular basis in the context of an ‘open relationship’ and I don’t know if she can give me enough time and energy. I would like to see her about every other day while lately it seems like she would only want to see me about once or twice a week. I am in the very painful position of knowing I currently need more out of this relationship while downplaying my feelings and needs so as not to push her away. I am so conflicted about how much time I should give her to figure out what she wants because I am going through a lot of pain while waiting in limbo. I just can’t reconcile the amazing mutual connection we have with her disinterest this past week in seeing me on a regular basis. Then again, it’s still only been 3 weeks since she’s been back and like I said, she’s a very busy girl.

On the issue of her having a sexual relationship with someone else simultaneously, I still can’t predict for sure how I’ll feel about it but I don’t feel possessive of her and have talked with her about the guys she dated while she was away and felt virtually no twinge of jealousy. The main issue for me is not getting enough quality time with her (which is currently a problem since she has such an active social life) but tonight I’ve come to realize I have become too focused and affected by how our relationship is going day to day and it is unhealthy. I need to try maintaining and strengthening other friendships that I have neglected lately and creating other relationships that can satisfy needs that I am relying too heavily on Kate to fill.

[somapopper]

This open relationship thing seems to me like a red herring.

If you had your druthers, it seems pretty clear that you would want to be in an exclusive standard relationship with this girl. Since that isn't happening you've decided that you'd rather be in a open relationship with her than an exclusive one with somebody else.

Because she likes you, she's attracted to you, and maybe even because of the commitment issues, she's still willing to sleep with you, but you want more out of her and out of the relationship. Your abillity to repress that need for more is going to determine how long you can last without cracking, but the relationship is doomed.

2 other things:

I'm sure she is busy, but she's got time to date other people. If people really want to put the time in to maintain a relationship they'll find that time.

You said that she was genuinely excited for you when you told her about a girl you met. Were you excited for her when she told you about guys she was dating? Not accepting, but excited? That seems to me more like the behavior of a friend than someone in any kind of relationship.

I'd say you should lay it out for her that you want an exclusive relationship, and if she can't do it you're going to have to end it. It sounds like she probably can't, but you'll be taking the misery now instead of the misery latter and can work on finding something that works better for you.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
For starters, this really needs to be something that YOU are OK with, not just something you're doing to keep her around. For all kinds of reasons, if you do something that's completely at odds with your personal morals and preferences simply for her, you're screwed.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

OP it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things considering you said you haven't dated much. Having read your descriptions of what's going on, though, I think it's really unlikely that this girl is going to change her mind about having a long-term relationship with you. If you understand that and are genuinely cool with it, then go ahead and enjoy your time with her. If you're doing all this hoping that she'll change her mind and stick around, you're setting yourself up for vicious disappointment.

I think you have to decide whether to enjoy her company now and screw the consequences, or make an all out effort to try and get her for good. If you decide on the latter (which I think has low chances of success, but a man can dream) then you really have to back off now and give her a little space, summon reinforcements and mount an assault again a bit later.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Any comments, EDF?

[steel108]

This is only a question you can answer:

Do you have REAL feeling for her?

If you do, then your fooling yourself if you think you can have an open relationship with her. In the end, it will end badly and you will resent her. Just imagine it now, you call her up to hang out and she tells you that she already has a date..... Your out with your buddies and you see her holding hands with some guy..... If you care about her, I can't imagine a situatin where you are having sex with her and your not think about some other guy who might have been in your shoes the night before.

This is from first hand experience and from everyone of my buddies who have been through the same thing. Just be honest with her and things will work out.

[aces_dad]

Sorry dude, but it sounds like she just isn't as in to you as you are her. It seems like all the open relationship requests are coming from her.

Would you rather have a dedicated relationship?

[MatthewRyan]

Enon, I only want to say this:

NEVER ASK TO KISS A GIRL AGAIN!

seriously guys, do not do this, ever.

-Matt