Making a documentary about online poker pros

[PartyGirlUK]

Hi,

Diablo said we could make our own thread for this. Krantz and I are seriously considering making a documentary about online poker pros. It might be somewhat similar to 'Spellbound', following them in the months leading up to the WSOP, followed by a 15 minute '1 year later' piece. The exact format we are shooting for is unknown, we might just try and get some great footage then see what to do with it. We're making this post for 2 reasons.

i) We would like this documentary to be a great piece of work, and would welcome suggestions on how you think this could be best achieved. Potential pitfalls, avenues to explore, structure of the piece etc. all comments welcome, even if they consist of 'This idea sucks, it will never work'. Please try to be constructive.

ii) We are looking for subjects of the film. We want to create something representative of our community, and to not open it up to as diverse a group as we could get would definitely be a disservice to the film and online poker players. If you are think you would be a good subject, or know someone who would be, please let us know. It doesn't matter if you are high or low stakes, limit or no limit, old or young etc. etc. We want a representative group, and mainly people who are interesting. I even think we could incorporate a live pro, that might actually add something.

If you want to email us: jfr426@gmail.com

Thanks,

Dean and Jay

[The DaveR]

Limit to 3 people, and follow them for more than two years. The interesting thing about online pros today is what they will do in a couple of years, not the WSOP.

It is very unlikely to be nearly as good as Spellbound. Those kids were at the age and of the type where they couldn't hide in front of the camera, and I doubt you'll find people nearly as unselfconscious.

[KJS]

Read the David Sedaris bit about the suckiness of watching someone on film sitting at a computer. I can't remember what book it is in but it is spot on. Something to keep in mind.

KJS

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
Limit to 3 people

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm - maybe 4-6? Using Spellbound as a model (wrt to number of people followed, how much camera time each got, etc.) is not a bad idea.

Also, and this is prolly fairly obvious, vary the ages, goals, place in life etc. of each pro you follow. Studies in contrast are always nice to see with good execution.

-Al

[mbillie1]

I like this idea. It would be interesting to show how poker skills / playing poker constantly helps and hurts in real life. I'm not sure I'm good enough at poker (or high stakes enough, as I'm pretty much 50c/1 and 1/2 and not a huge game theoretician at this point) to be in this but I'm definitely interesting enough, although definitely not in a "good for a documentary" way.

You also probably want to get a good deal of "good life" (or at least some) in there. Show that poker can be done responsibly to produce positive financial changes in a smart and determined individual's life.

Finally, I'd recommend getting a mix of people who make their entire living playing poker and people who have very good jobs and are very successful otherwise who still make extra income from poker.

I'd definitely watch it, good luck.

[wet work]

I definitely think it's a good idea, but as a previous poster mentioned you're going to have to find a way to avoid too much footage of people sitting in front of a computer. Unless you find someone like tuff_fish, then it could be pure gold.

[Anacardo]

I just wanted to point out that I am in all respects fascinating.

[WhoIam]

I'm also seriously considering making a documentary about high-stakes online pros. Your post scared the hell out of me, but it looks like your idea is very different than mine, which comes as a big relief. I need to think about this for a while longer and decide if it would be worth the massive expenditure of time and money. If it looks like I'm going ahead, I'll make a similar post here asking for ideas, advice and feedback.

My advice would be not to over-plan it and let the footage dictate the direction you take. What running length are you targeting? This idea seems like it would be great in a 30, 50, or 90-minute format. Good luck to you guys.

[KRANTZ]

Interested in what people think --- as well as thoughts on the relevance of getting something like this out over the next 1-2 years, rather than 3 years+

[El Diablo]

Dean,

If you can get someone like KKF or Degen(I think he quals) or anyone else who is doing something like living abroad while doing this, that would be huge.

I imagine Bruiser would be a great character study on film.

A "ship it holla balla" type would be good. Maybe two w/ that attitude. One who's really nerdy, and one who's a good-looking fratboy type.

OK, there ya go, there are 4 of your main characters. I'd say follow 8, then pick 3-6 to actually make it in the film.

[theBruiser500]

Last summer when me and some friends had a poker house in Vegas my friend (film major) really seriously wanted to do a movie on us. He ended up getting a pretty sweet job doing a promotional video on a summer camp for kids with terminal illness instead which Paul Newman runs. Anyway, he still thinks it would be a great idea and wants to do it, I want to move away from poker at this point but who knows, it could be cool being famous.

[WhoIam]

Some more thoughts:
You would probably have a larger audience and more interest in the film if you included a name pro. Getting someone like Daniel N. would be a huge coup and his blog would be a source of free publicity.

To cut down on production costs, try to get all of your subjects from the same geographical area. This way you won't have be flying all over the place all the time to shoot footage. Good spots would be LA, NY, or LV. What's your budget for this? You could do it for $1000 with a mini-DV camera and ambient lighting, or you could do it for $1M with a professional crew, pro editors and producers, etc.

[lapoker17]

kkf or bruiser
don buttons
jman or aba
nation
james
neon

alternate: zeebo

no limidonks pls. watching any hands would be too excruciating.

[lapoker17]

or - as we already discussed - if you can find some dude who's losing everything he owns but can't stop playing that would be ideal.

[Isura]

Diablo,

Good suggestions. Also, a few oldies like yourself would be a nice way to round out the cast.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
or - as we already discussed - if you can find some dude who's losing everything he owns but can't stop playing that would be ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

grimstarr

[lapoker17]

yes isura - good nomination - he would be great.

[El Diablo]

la,

kurosh...

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Some more thoughts:
You would probably have a larger audience and more interest in the film if you included a name pro. Getting someone like Daniel N. would be a huge coup and his blog would be a source of free publicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this would be a bit of a cop-out - he (or other name pros) aren't really "online" players, and as such they're removed from the lifestyle as well as the implications of the impending legislation. yeah, he's famous, and yeah, it's instant exposure, but i don't think it would be as interesting as looking at someone like say, grimstarr, whose actual life has been defined by online poker.

btw, great suggestions guys - i can't believe i didn't even think about grimstarr

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]
la,

kurosh...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah - how did he slip my mind - this role was tailor made for him.

btw dean and krantz - i'm pretty sure there are a number of people who are/will be doing this, and documnetaries are actually a place where first mover advantage is true so get flming.

pretty sure diablo and i even talked about doing this sometime last year.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some more thoughts:
You would probably have a larger audience and more interest in the film if you included a name pro. Getting someone like Daniel N. would be a huge coup and his blog would be a source of free publicity.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this would be a bit of a cop-out - he (or other name pros) aren't really "online" players, and as such they're removed from the lifestyle as well as the implications of the impending legislation. yeah, he's famous, and yeah, it's instant exposure, but i don't think it would be as interesting as looking at someone like say, grimstarr, whose actual life has been defined by online poker.



[/ QUOTE ]
It could be an interesting contrast, though. Name pro X gives interviews, has photo shoots, and hangs out with celebrities while internet pro Y stays home on a Saturday night and 8-tables.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
la,

kurosh...

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget to have one of the film crew fill his garbage can to overflowing with vegetable tops, curry powder boxes, and cardamom leaves.

[PartyGirlUK]

[ QUOTE ]
Dean,

If you can get someone like KKF or Degen(I think he quals) or anyone else who is doing something like living abroad while doing this, that would be huge.

I imagine Bruiser would be a great character study on film.

A "ship it holla balla" type would be good. Maybe two w/ that attitude. One who's really nerdy, and one who's a good-looking fratboy type.

OK, there ya go, there are 4 of your main characters. I'd say follow 8, then pick 3-6 to actually make it in the film.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are all nice suggestions, most people seem keen on suggesting names of high profile 2p2ers - how good a film do you think this would make as opposed to say having a few high/medium stakes 2p2ers and a few low stakes players, who have either grinded for a few years (maybe David Ross type guys?) or someone just turning pro on a low bankroll who could go busto or could be the next aba, or maybe someone who is just plain bad and near doomed to failure?

[suzzer99]

The rap-durrrr house might be interesting to follow.

[suzzer99]

Dean, I think you're gonna need ballas to create some interest, and counteract the aforementioned innate suckiness of watching people do stuff on a computer. Then again you could film me screaming and pounding the desk for entertainment.

[El Diablo]

Dean,

"someone just turning pro on a low bankroll who could go busto or could be the next aba"

The problem w/ this is that you would need to follow quite a few to have a good shot at finding someone where this turns into an interesting progression in either direction. Most of these people will either quit after a while or keep grinding w/ so-so success.

"who have either grinded for a few years (maybe David Ross type guys?)"

I suspect most of these won't be very compelling stories to watch for the average viewer.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]

These are all nice suggestions, most people seem keen on suggesting names of high profile 2p2ers

[/ QUOTE ]

there is a reason they are high-profile on 2p2 - they are compelling.

[ QUOTE ]
- how good a film do you think this would make as opposed to say having a few high/medium stakes 2p2ers and a few low stakes players, who have either grinded for a few years (maybe David Ross type guys?) or someone just turning pro on a low bankroll who could go busto or could be the next aba, or maybe someone who is just plain bad and near doomed to failure?

[/ QUOTE ]

only one low/mid stakes guy - nation from my list. that is plenty. the viewing public will not be interested in 3 guyswho do pretty well at 400nl. also, as we dicussed, it's less about the exact stakes than it is about the personalities. that said, in such endeavors you need to always err on the side of the extreme. if you can find some dude living in a 200 sq ft studio and 12 tabling .25/.50 to scrape by a miserable existence, then definitely use him.

[KRANTZ]

take bruiser, for instance - i'm sure he'd be amazing to film if he were a high stakes baller OR some struggling SSNL guy. so it'd be nice to represent the full environment of players, but only if they're actually going to make good characters. i don't think we want to have a baller just for baller's sake unless he's going to be fun to watch (and of course 100k pots are fun to watch, but my point still stands), and we don't want to have a struggling player if all he's going to do is breakeven or lose money.

there's got to be something more behind them, or else it's just going to be some sort of amateur film school project-ish thing. and hopefully we'll find the right mix.

[wins_pot]

Dean, I'd advise you not to do it. I watched a friend of mine attempt a fairly ambitious poker documentary. He made it to about the halfway point and quit due to lack of funds. He (and his investors) put maybe 100k into it. I put 6k in it. The more astute potential investors that he courted didn't see much market potential (and this was in early 2005, when poker was hotter than it is now.) -ba

[KRANTZ]

brandon, do you mind going into a little more detail? if you don't want to post here, please PM me

[TheMetetron]

I'm not entirely sure this would actually work, but as has been mentioned you need a good mix. Definitely someone living abroad, someone balling at high stakes, a struggling grinder, etc. I also think this would take a substantial investment and may not be worth it.

[Kyle]

I think stoxtrader would be an excellent candidate. Wall streeter turned poker pro. Wife kids etc.

Someone like strassa would be interesting as well. Made tons of money and had a bright future in poker but decided to get a job etc.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
brandon, do you mind going into a little more detail? if you don't want to post here, please PM me

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you PM me as well if you don't want to post here. What was the focus, who was interviewed, what was the marketing strategy, etc? I'm under no illusions about making a profit, though there would be a slim chance of that happening. I'd be surprised if anyone here who wasn't previously successful could make a documentary that would have more success than being shown at a few festivals.

[El Diablo]

D,K:

My boy GoG would be an outstanding candidate for this.

[Banks2334]

I forsee a Diablo Forum road trip to Sundance for the world premiere.

[elwoodblues]

Decent idea. It won't be a good story if everyone you choose ends up successful. The gripping story will be when someone grinds away for hours and hours each week in isolation only to end up not being able to pay the rent for the month.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]

Dean, I'd advise you not to do it. I watched a friend of mine attempt a fairly ambitious poker documentary. He made it to about the halfway point and quit due to lack of funds. He (and his investors) put maybe 100k into it. I put 6k in it. The more astute potential investors that he courted didn't see much market potential (and this was in early 2005, when poker was hotter than it is now.) -ba


[/ QUOTE ]

this is certainly something to think about, but very few documentaries are made based on market demand (go read the documentaries thread to see how many are made about even less mainstream topics than poker) and very few are made as "investments". if you are looking to get rich from something, then definitely don't go into the documentary making business.

the reason to do it is because you have a passion for both the subject matter and for film making. because there's a story you think should be told.

if you guys can afford to fail at it, then nothing bad can happen. you will either wind up with an amazing life experience and learn many great lessons. or you willl wind up with an amazing life experience, learn many great lessons, and be the directors/producers of a successful film.

as with any entrepreneurial venture i will give the same advice i always do - figure out exactly how much money you need and then double that.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
D,K:

My boy GoG would be an outstanding candidate for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

But would he do it? He seems to shun the community and all these goofy things

[PartyGirlUK]

Id be happy to drop 10k of my own money on this for the experience, maybe more, 100k no way.

[crazy canuck]

For this to be successful, you have to go with people who are extreme success or there has to be something very compelling to the story. Not everyone can turn realtively uninteresting people into intriguing subjects like David Sutherland (http://www.davidsutherland.com/).

This is why most of the reality shows are in a competitive setting. For example not many people would be interested in watching Apprentice if it was just about getting hired for a big law firm or investment bank.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]

Id be happy to drop 10k of my own money on this for the experience, maybe more, 100k no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't even know what this means - are you saying that between the 2 of you you are committing maybe $30k and that's all you have? if so, then yeah, don't do it, but i thought you guys were further along than simple stuff like this. have you made budget? are other people putting money in?

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Id be happy to drop 10k of my own money on this for the experience, maybe more, 100k no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't even know what this means - are you saying that between the 2 of you you are committing maybe $30k and that's all you have? if so, then yeah, don't do it, but i thought you guys were further along than simple stuff like this. have you made budget? are other people putting money in?

[/ QUOTE ]

we were under the impression that we'd be able to budget the filming in that range, yeah. are we just totally off? we've spoken to a bunch of people that have said it can easily be done for that much, even less.

[MicroBob]

I think a David Ross or Stox would definitely be a good addition to the mix.

You have the holla-balla types. And then you have the regular family-dude like those guys.
That's the kind of variety you want imo.

No, David wouldn't exactly be thrilling. But the contrast between him taking care of his kids and having a typical suburban family-life vs. some young kid throwing his money around at a strip-club would be interesting.
And then add the contrast of some jet-setter/world-traveller type like Degen and you have some definite variety.

Maybe also a more 'regular' type college-student low-limit grinder/bonus-whore to show that you can do this just for $15-$20/hr vs. the much larger swings of the holla-ballas.


Dean - do you work in tv currently? do you have documentary making experience?
I expect this would be quite the awesome task, especially if you've never done it before.
Sorry if everybody else knows this. I just don't know your background.

Friend of mine has worked on some stuff for PBS and was going to do his own documentary about some Key West revolt in the early 80's or something but I don't think he got around to actually moving forward on it.

[gumpzilla]

Brandi! Brandi! Brandi!

Also, I agree with those pointing out that a busto story in there would be pretty compelling.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]

we were under the impression that we'd be able to budget the filming in that range, yeah. are we just totally off? we've spoken to a bunch of people that have said it can easily be done for that much, even less.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly don't know, but the only truly bad thing that can happen would be what happened to brandon's friend - that you get halfway there and can't complete it b/c of finances. so...

post a budget in this thread - between the guys with technical knowledge of film making and the guys with successful entrepreneurial backgrounds, we could probably figure it out fairly easily - then we could double it.

[KRANTZ]

la - we def will once we figure out if we can get a compelling blend of people and start to actually go into production. will keep everyone apprised.

i PMed brandon, i'm very curious as to how/where 100k went so quickly

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

[ QUOTE ]
D,K:

My boy GoG would be an outstanding candidate for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

GoG is your boy when he is on a hot streak, and just some kid you know when he's losing.

[El Diablo]

Bruiser: "But would he do it? He seems to shun the community and all these goofy things" He will do it if he thinks it will get him hot chicks.

Strassa: "GoG is your boy when he is on a hot streak, and just some kid you know when he's losing." False. When he is losing I do not admit to knowing him.

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
la - we def will once we figure out if we can get a compelling blend of people and start to actually go into production. will keep everyone apprised.

i PMed brandon, i'm very curious as to how/where 100k went so quickly

[/ QUOTE ]

Equipment for a doc is very affordable, since the public will accept digital video and less-than-slick camera/mic work. Basically you need a good digital camera, some sound equipment, and a fast computer to edit. I'm thinking ~10K if you have to buy all of it. Then you have the issues of travelling to locations, obtaining crew members (you won't need many, I'd guess), and your own time and energy. With that stuff, you can get together a rough cut, assuming you guys have the skills to put it together (Jay, I know you have some background in that area). At that point, there will be a lot of expense if you want to get the film to exhibitable quality; licensing music, post-production sound work, a bunch of [censored] I'm not thinking of now, but that's when you'll run into a lot of cost. Also realize that as much time as it'll take to film this stuff, you'll spend 10 times more time in the editing room; editing documentaries is a LONG process. I have experience with that--please take my word for it. Like lapoker said, do this only if you really have a passion for telling this story on film; it will be a beast of an effort, but promises to be a hell of an experience. I, for one, am really looking forward to hearing about your progress, and seeing it someday. Good luck!

[fish2plus2]

Dean,

I think you need to tie it around the the WSOP and live tournaments or its going to be very boring.

Actually, following ZJ on his way to Mr. 2007 Leaderboard might be an option for you, hahaha.

EDIT: Checkout the book "From Reel to Deal", its very good.

Brandon,

Your friend dropped $100K on a poker documentry? Was he using 35mm film? That is surreal. How much of it was other people's money?

[fluffpop62]

what about nlsoldier & jayrockets and thatpfunk?

i think they're slightly more fascinating because they're young and wealthy, but becuase of their own efforts. i suppose they're not as involved in the professional scene as a lot of the people mentioned, but they also offer a refereshing point of view IMHO, for that specific reason. They're not all about poker but their lives would be profoundly worse without it (hope i'm not overstepping how much poker is to you, dave, i'm just assuming you're similar to david and jay).

[PartyGirlUK]

veganmav seems like a great candidate.

[MicroBob]

Neverwin, Prahlad, Aba, Gigabet.

On NVG the other night it was reported that some guys were just to doing random 'flips' (capping blind) for $3k each.
The type of person who actually does this could make for an interesting scene.

Agree with Diablo that Kurosh should be considered.

Peachy or AwesomeAli too. Get a girl in there.

[fish2plus2]

Dean,

I think Durr is the best choice. You should get him to make a video of himself as he plays, then the audience can watch and listen to him explain his decisions while he wins and loses hundreds of thousands of dollars. Then you can talk about stuff outside of poker - but really, its probably going to be insanely boring. Following Degen around a bunch of go-go bars might be interesting but you probably cant afford that much travel.

I think you should format the film so it leads up to the WSOP.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
la - we def will once we figure out if we can get a compelling blend of people and start to actually go into production. will keep everyone apprised.

i PMed brandon, i'm very curious as to how/where 100k went so quickly

[/ QUOTE ]

Equipment for a doc is very affordable, since the public will accept digital video and less-than-slick camera/mic work. Basically you need a good digital camera, some sound equipment, and a fast computer to edit. I'm thinking ~10K if you have to buy all of it. Then you have the issues of travelling to locations, obtaining crew members (you won't need many, I'd guess), and your own time and energy. With that stuff, you can get together a rough cut, assuming you guys have the skills to put it together (Jay, I know you have some background in that area). At that point, there will be a lot of expense if you want to get the film to exhibitable quality; licensing music, post-production sound work, a bunch of [censored] I'm not thinking of now, but that's when you'll run into a lot of cost. Also realize that as much time as it'll take to film this stuff, you'll spend 10 times more time in the editing room; editing documentaries is a LONG process. I have experience with that--please take my word for it. Like lapoker said, do this only if you really have a passion for telling this story on film; it will be a beast of an effort, but promises to be a hell of an experience. I, for one, am really looking forward to hearing about your progress, and seeing it someday. Good luck!

[/ QUOTE ]
The two main things that make an amateur film seem like it was shot in your backyard or meant to be on public access is bad lighting and bad sound. Lighting isn't that important in a documentary, but you need a camera operator who knows what he's doing or it will look like like it was shot on your dad's VHS camcorder. Getting a good digital camera will help with this. I imagine you'll be doing at least some "talking head" interviews so learn some basic lighting stuff for this.

The best advice I can give you for sound is to get good equipment and find someone who knows how to use it. If the audio is muddy or clipped or otherwise compromised, no one will sit through your movie. For the love of god don't use the built-in microphone.

Documentary editing is a ridiculous amount of work. With a fiction film, you know generally how a scene is supposed to progress, so it's just a matter of selecting good takes and editing them together in an interesting way. With a documentary, you have much less of a "blueprint" to work with and you may have literally hundreds of hours of footage to sort through.

[El Diablo]

KKF,

"listen to him explain his decisions"
"its probably going to be insanely boring."

Yes. But durrr is a great candidate. Just need to forget about all the explaining and focus on the highs/lows.

OK. I'm bluffing this guy for $80,000. Oh jesus he called and has four tens. Oh god this sucks. OH WOW HOLY SH*T I JUST HIT A MIRACLE CARD TO MAKE A STRAIGHT FLUSH AND WIN $200,000!!!!!!!! YESYESYES!!!!

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
OK. I'm bluffing this guy for $80,000. Oh jesus he called and has four tens. Oh god this sucks. OH WOW HOLY SH*T I JUST HIT A MIRACLE CARD TO MAKE A STRAIGHT FLUSH AND WIN $200,000!!!!!!!! YESYESYES!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

if only that was caught on video...

[Victor]

"or maybe someone who is just plain bad and near doomed to failure? "

ooh ooh pick me!

[Howard Treesong]

I think you have to choose people that are interesting, thoughtful, and charismatic or extreme in some way. Anacardo would be interesting as a study in overly intellectual tragedy, for example. Or perhaps Shaniac, who is a thoughtful and articulate guy with an interesting story, although he of course is not solely an online player.

As an example of what NOT to do: I would rather put hot needles into my eyes rather than watch that horrible documentary about Susan Genard again. It felt like a boring bad beat story with her wildly overusing "brutal" to describe ordinary Omaha or 8/e beats, and wasn't profound or even thoughtful in any way at all.

Possible themes: devaluation and disregard for $
real-world social isolation vs.
online social interaction and connection
looking up to PA
preparation versus gamble-fever degeneracy, although the Dostoyevskian tragedy element is already overdone

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

Hallingol would be great.

[fluffpop62]

i think if you want it to be universally appealing, the last thing you need is long segments with people explaining why they did things. save that for "director's cut" of the WSOP dvd.
a gripping movie is going to be a lot more focused on the nutjobs. it might be interesting to kind of pop someone who is a newbie to the whole online poker thing in as a guinea pig - i'm thinking along the lines of the book Wordfreak, or Mean Girls. Kind of getting an outsider's perspective, not just a let's follow people around and see why they play poker the way they do. it would be 10x more interesting to document the lifestyle of people who make money this way then the specifics of how they make it.

[MicroBob]

A documentary with some borderline-nutjobs in there was Poker Kings on A&E.
Among the players they followed around were Varkoni, Hellmuth and a couple of wanna-be's with no concept of bankroll management ("It's my last $10k. If I don't cash in this one I'm busto!!")

Varkoni goes in for a job interview and comes off as really nerdy and awkward. He claims that the reason he can't hired for a job is because he won a poker championship.
Many who watched it observed that it was his lack of people-skills and general nerdyness why he wasn't getting hired and he seemed completely oblivious to that.

It would be worth watching in your situation I suppose just to give you some ideas perhaps on what can work and what doesn't.

The funny thing is, even with some semi-interesting stories in there, I found the whole documentary to be pretty bad and borderline-unwatchable.

Maybe the players who were just too desperate and lacked money-management just made me too squeamish or because the personalities were just not likeable.

But I think some other 2+2'ers who saw this agree with me that it kind of sucked.

I might like it better if I watched it again though.

[kurosh]

After this semester, I am planning on staying in Vegas for the WSOP and playing in as many events as I can. My future after that is undecided. I'm not sure if I would like to be a part of this.

[NoahSD]

Someone with a wife and kids would be a nice contrast to a kurosh or a Jman.

I don't think you really want low stakes grinders. They'd only be interesting if they were really broke and struggling and if it was eventful (they can't make their rent, they owe money to somebody, etc.). I don't think you'll find much of that.

[UpstateNYAAonly]

Dean,
do you have any experience with script writing, editing, or shooting video, it takes up alot of time. I work as a videographer for a local TV station and was wondering what type of backround you have.

Upstate

[SossMan]

I'm not sure about your idea, but Christopher Guest doing a mockumentary about poker would be awesome.

[Slider]

CTS for the win?

[cobrakai111]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about your idea, but Christopher Guest doing a mockumentary about poker would be awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've made this suggestion before and even have tinkered around with a treatment but just never focused on it like I would have liked to. I think it could be priceless.

[keikiwai]

i think you need to minimize filming people playing online and filming people posting on 2p2 ldo.... since that's boring

the tour is ok to focus around, but i think it'd be better if you focused on something like people getting ready and then moving into a shared poker house

idk, i think it's a tough thing to make interesting, so you should find players with lots of conflict or travelling or getting drunk going on in their lives.....

it'll def. be hard to make interesting unless you really find the right charachters

[Slider]

Lol, our house is pretty funny. Different backgrounds from everyone - but none of play live that much besides Billy.

Lots of frustration and anxiety building up for me and BillyJex because of the games getting tougher etc...

Dan Bright's too busy looking at himself in the mirror and buying $500 shoes.. plus he's Canadian so the games are still good for him.

Tongni flings poo at Commerce 3-4 days a week at Nosebleed stakes. As long as the Asians keep making poo at the laundromats, he'll be fine.

Billy is crying and reminiscing about the days he used to be able to 8 table 400NL on autopilot and make 30k a month. At least he has a [censored] degree /images/graemlins/frown.gif

CTS beats up on TAGs like me and Billy... He dropped out but he might go back to school.

I play poorly at 400-1000. I also enjoy Chick Flicks (last night I watched Just Like Heaven and The Last Kiss), John Mayer, and meeting new people at bars.

Although I think we're pretty interesting, it would be difficult to make amazing unless the editing was really good.

[El Diablo]

All,

As a number of you have alluded to, a big part of the challenge here would be to take all this footage and create storylines for these individuals. That's usually key to a good documentary. That's one good thing about following the tourney scene, there are natural arcs/progressions to the event, which may or may not occur for cash players.

[Slider]

[ QUOTE ]
That's one good thing about following the tourney scene, there are natural arcs/progressions to the event, which may or may not occur for cash players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. Otherwise it would just seem like a Real World without the drama or people getting kicked off.

Our lease ends in like August. Not sure what everyone's plans are. I'm thinking about moving to Europe. I know I want to go back to school but I want to make sure when I go, I can concentrate fully. (Which means.. I need $$$)

[DJ Sensei]

dean/krantz:

I think you should aim to have the film done as soon as possible. The poker boom in america is slowing down obviously, and the success of the project depends greatly on people being interested in the subject matter. Online poker probably won't be a hot topic for too much longer.

Also be sure to include something about the UIGEA+aftermath in there, so people who dont realize how [censored] it was for everyone, pros amateurs and fish alike, can learn.

As far as number of subjects, I think that having a few players to follow throughout would be a good idea, but that you should also have a number of shorter segments to try and cover as much of the online poker demographic as possible. Use the most interesting/appealing people for your primary subjects and then fill in the gaps with short bits about several other types of player.

Obviously watching somebody on the computer is boring, but you definitely do need to include some footage of 2409812124-tabling on several monitors, and some of really high stakes action, because those are probably the most intriguing parts of online poker to the outsider. I think you should focus more on the lifestles of the players rather than their poker playing, too. Your viewers will start watching because they like poker, but keep watching/tell their friends if theyre interested in the people.

[Butcho22]

Okay...it's 4:30am here in Seattle so bear with me if this sounds really lame.

What if it's centered around QUALIFYING for the WSOP Main Event?

Something like....blah blah the WSOP Main Event is the biggest and blah blah everybody wants to win...blah blah...come meet the unknowns and see how they get there blah blah.

You could even just get a couple clips of name pros basically saying how they plan on get in, (sats, straight buy in, meh) Explain about how cash games swell, etc. etc..

I just think that a docum about online poker, or online poker pros is a bit too vague. Pretty hard to sell a ticket to anybody who hasn't heard of Gigabet. Unless you really are just making it to make it, then I guess it doesn't matter. But to make it more attractive to your casual fan I believe the title needs to read something like...

The Road to The WSOP: Behind The Scenes

(Ok, I know that title is kinda lame but you get my point.)

It could still be mainly about online pros of course. This would just be a rough start/finish for the film.

[fish2plus2]

the only way you are making your money back is if one of the people you are following top tens the WSOP.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]
the only way you are making your money back is if one of the people you are following top tens the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

kkf, you are far too imaginative to believe this.

what if one of the subjects kills himself? what if he kills someone else? what if he has to give bjs to get money for poker? the possibilities are endless.

[Dids]

A few thoughts:

1- Poker players are [censored] boring for the most part, so I think you'll need a ton of flim and a lot of players just to keep things interesting.

2- If this is online poker, the less actual poker and the more "lifestyle" stuff you show, the better.

3- I have a hard time seeing this making money unless it's so well done that it gets massive word of mouth draw. If you can do it low budget great, but dumping a ton of money into it seems questionable.

[KRANTZ]

guys,

this thread has been great - very helpful so far (and we hope it will continue to be).

we're very loathe to actually get this going if we can't find the right mix of people to follow - as many of you point out, there's nothing interesting about watching guys sit around in their pajamas clicking buttons. even if it's for 100k pots, the novelty wears off after two minutes. you could probably make a reallllly funny bad beat web short with that stuff... but not a documentary.

[Georgia Avenue]

This is a hijack, but I've been contemplating writing a poker novel (lol boring) about a young online player starting in 2003. Is there a good history of poker/gambling on the internet somewhere, like on Card Player or Poker Pages or something? If not, would this be a good El D forum thread: an oral history of Internet poker? What the games were like 4 years ago, what sites were around, how things have changed, what sites bombed, affiliate shenanigans, stuff like that?

[wins_pot]

Georgia. check out Broke: A Poker Novel. guys, Barry Greenstein suggested a completely new ending for Broke. I'm prob going to come out with a second edition this Spring.

ok, i don't have much time, but here some thoughts on the poker movie.....
-you save a lot if you can avoid lawyers. even low budget docs have 60 page agreements for their investors. if you don't have to have investors, you'll save time/money.
-my buddy is highly capable. at a certain point, he and his investors decided that it was irrational to throw more time and money into the project.
-he was filming outside (and inside, once) the WSOP main event in 2005. some of you may remember.
-he also filmed in ac a few times
-he might sell the footage he has. he says it would cost 5k to pay an editor to go through the one week of raw footage that he has.
-there's some value to finishing a doc even if it's not very good. see the doc No Limit.
-poker content is saturated all-around
-i know a few people in the indep film world. here's the problem.....
take someone like me. i watch a lot of movies, both in theaters and on dvd. i like indep film. i live near one of the best indep film theaters in the world (kendall square).

people who don't fit the above profile watch little or no indep film, and no documentaries.

people who fit the profile have such abundant options that good indep films with small budgets never make it on their radar. they'll watch documentaries, but only the best four or five that are produced each year.

brandon

[Schmitty 87]

[ QUOTE ]
veganmav seems like a great candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, especially in contrast to the shipitholla balla type guys. I think aba would be great to capture the TOP of success, then contrast that with a former successful hsnl player who is now playing much lower b/c of games getting tougher etc etc. College dropout vs. someone staying in school would also be an interesting comparison imo.

[jaffa]

I'm sorry, haven't read the thread so this might have already been mentioned, but..

if you do this, you need to find some people that will be interesting. You could have a ship it holla baller who's only 18 or something. But then you'd also do well to follow around someone who's clearly misguided, i.e. thinks they're a winner, thinks they're a pro, but aren't. Thats really what audiences are interested in. Its more to do with the characters, than the subject matter.

At the begining you want to showcase someone weird, i say weird because audiences love weirdness, someone they can't relate to. By the end of the documentary you want to have captured what makes them human.

It's difficult to explain so i reccommend you try find Louis Theroux's recent documentary on gambling in las vegas. It's available on download if you know where to look, may also be on youtube or daily motion. His documentaries are some of the most compelling i've seen.

[mj12]

coaching a very commited player starting at low stakes and watching his progression/life change as he starts to make $ and move through the stakes may be interesting ( but probably tough to actually do)

As I'm sure you know watching someone playing poker won't be super intriguing. But watching the effects swings have on their life, how people around them react to their profession(friends, family, strangers), and the general lifestyle/mindset of a poker player would be interesting.

[NickMPK]

Are you going to be able to film inside the WSOP? If not, I don't see how you can center this around the WSOP. Spellbound would have been terrible if you couldn't see the actual spelling bee.

[cakewalk]

i think you should aim this at combatting the poker legislation.

[Falang]

i think centering it around the WSOP would be kinda cliche and lame.

[gergery]

I would try and do this as cheap and as fast as possible and iterate. So get a videocamera and some computer editing stuff, shoot your buddy, and try to make a compelling story about him. Post on Youtube and solicit feedback from 2+2 and others. Learn from mistakes and repeat. Be cheap, self-funde and bootstrapped til you make some progress and want to continue.

If it goes well and you still have passion for it, only then would i start thinking about high quality camera, film crews, budgets and travelling.

When doing it, I think the less you show people actually at the computer playing, the better. It should be about their personality, story, motivations, background etc.

Getting a diverse group of interesting interviewees will help alot, but more important will be your ability to tell a story ie. show conflict, resolution etc. Read a book on screenwriting for how to do it well.

Make friends with someone who's done documentaries. or professors at film schools and ask lots of people for advice.

Rent and watch a bunch of documentaries for ideas on how they did things. Some of my favorites: "When We Were Kings", "The War Room".
-g

[PokerBob]

I am interesting and poor.

[Dids]

Pokerbob should have his own TV show.

DaveR should guest star.

Bison would provide snarky voice overs.

[fish2plus2]

brandon,

where did he spend the $100K? how much of it was other people's money? i ask because, frankly, it seems like he must have made some huge mistakes along the way.

"my buddy is highly capable."

at what exactly? what are his previous films?

"at a certain point, he and his investors decided that it was irrational to throw more time and money into the project."

yah.

"he might sell the footage he has. he says it would cost 5k to pay an editor to go through the one week of raw footage that he has."

What the ef was he shooting and why was he shooting on film for a poker documentry?

[fish2plus2]

[ QUOTE ]
i think centering it around the WSOP would be kinda cliche and lame.

[/ QUOTE ]

where is the rising action and climax without a tournament? Every poker movie leads up to the big game.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think centering it around the WSOP would be kinda cliche and lame.

[/ QUOTE ]

where is the rising action and climax without a tournament? Every poker movie leads up to the big game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just poker movies - documentaries (Spellbound), mockumentaries (Best in Show) all need something to tie the characters together at the end.

[Eagles]

I think durr/raptor would be intersting

I don't think Jman would be as intersting.

[Pudge714]

I think Rap-Durrrr would be good choices.
I will also add that the SIHB are much more regular IRL than online would have you believe. Except g2cu he is actually like that.
That being said when they get together they do start acting crazier. I think a good idea would be to follow people who live together. From a logistics standpoint it would be easier, or you can follow a house for the WSOP.

If you want to follow live pros who got started online, someone like ZJ or TheUsher would be decent choices.

[Actual God]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to follow live pros who got started online, someone like ZJ or TheUsher would be decent choices.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too late. They're filming a documentary about TheUsher already. Saw it last night at the commerce.

[Gordon Scott]

How about "The Grandma the Balla and the Busted Lawyer" as a title.

Find a mix of back grounds that you would never see together in any other part of life. Find a College drop out that's pulling high 6 figures, a granny with 3 20" screens playing 1-2nl on 3 sites. Find a doctor or lawyer thats lost a small fortune online an doesn't care because it's intertainment and it's the only life they have outside of there work.

Best of Luck

[TonyDanza]

No one has mentioned ZJ. Regardless of your personal feelings on the kid, his ethics, etc., he would be an interesting person to follow. His accomplishments has gone from well-respected highly successful online player to shunned to successful on the live tourney circuit. Whether or not he would participate is another story. I think many of the others that are mentioned are also interesting. I definitely think there needs to be contrast and some type of climax/goal of what each player is trying to accomplish. The most obvious example is the WSOP. I also think that it could include players moving to Vegas to play or players going from full-time jobs to only playing poker. I don't think it would be that interesting to follow some guy just playing HSNL online who has already been successful and has no other aspirations besides making serious cash.

Also, I agree with those that say that this should not consist of filming people playing at their computers the whole time. I think it is clear that what would interest the general public is players motivations, desires, goals, struggles more so than whether they 3bet bluff the river with air or how they play JTs UTG. Obviously, playing poker must be included but it can be as simple as doing an interview while the player is playing online. If this is done as a series of interviews, I think this would be really interesting to watch if it is well structured.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
Read the David Sedaris bit about the suckiness of watching someone on film sitting at a computer. I can't remember what book it is in but it is spot on. Something to keep in mind.
KJS

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, can't remember if it was Wallace or Sedaris who first pointed this out in their essay.

[The Yugoslavian]

Hung out all last night in LA on sunset hitting up different clubs with some of the SIHBs....we had a couple of college students tagging along to do a school documentary. Apathy and I kept having to get them to turn off the camera tho for like half of our stories, lol.

Oh, this is what Actual God is talking about....so ok, but it's not like a real, pro, documentary.

Btw - the SIHBs would all individually (well, except for max :P lol) make better subjects than someone like ZJ.

Rapdurrr is a phenomenal option as well.

Yugoslav

[TonyDanza]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw - the SIHBs would all individually (well, except for max :P lol) make better subjects than someone like ZJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure that a lot of people would make better subjects than ZJ. ZJ, however, brings a recognizable and controversial name that might increase attraction and provide a different perspective. On the other hand, his name might also create a negative vibe about internet poker at a time when the industry does not need any more negative attention.

[jrbick]

I haven't watched "Spellbound," (I just added it to my queue and will probably watch it on Tuesday) but from what I can tell it might not necessarily the right model to follow after for what would make this film interesting. Most anyone can relate to spelling bees since we all have been in one at one time or another. Toss in the kid factor and the awkwardness of ESPN televising the national event and you've got some interest. Poker is a bit different, in some ways.

When I first heard about this I was thinking more along the lines of "Comedian." I don't mean the dynamic between 'superstar' and 'amateur,' but I toss that title out there to illustrate the general method of a simple examination/exposure of the life of _______. The ups, downs, moments of grandeur and moments of humiliation, how poker has changed lives dramatically (for better or for worse), etc etc. I was thinking more along the lines of MTV's "Diary" than anything else, I guess. "you think you know, but you have no idea"-kind-of-thing.

For instance, why exactly are students dropping out of college? Why are lawyers giving up their jobs? Why are 20 yo's buying mansions and lambo's? Why did the guy making min. wage just flat out quit his job? Is it really that easy? Is it truly "the life?" Stuff like that. And maybe then show how it's being sort of interrupted/borderline shattered (possibly, i guess... time will tell if you start filming in coming months... Sam Jones set out to film Wilco merely record YHF; look what that film turned into). The actual poker-playing is a pretty small part of what makes this interesting. It's more like just the catalyst for that which is really interesting.

So maybe build from the idea that congress and the majority of the public have some HUGE misconceptions about the world of online poker. Some may not even have a clue that people can make a living doing this. Some may not even have a clue that these same people are their next-door neighbors. A lot of people probably have some very ignorant generalizations about people who play poker. But our community is insanely diverse on so many levels, and we'd like to not be trampled under-foot any longer.

Would suck to have a heavily politicized slant to it, but I think it could be done as more of an exposure piece than purely politcally driven piece. I mean, I guess you'd have to include that aspect no matter what at this point.


Anyway -- these are just some ideas and initial perceptions I had when I first saw that you guys were thinking about doing this film.

[veganmav]

I would probably be willing to do this.
Depending on what all is involved.

I assume I would be filmed dumpster diving, and cooking and eating too? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PartyGirlUK]

For sure

[TheWorstPlayer]

yo, you guys can film me any time. i'm like a modern hoop-dreams, right here in NYC. I have a sick balla job, but I can theoretically make 10x as much playing poker. if I can make it to the upper echelons. Come watch as I quit my job (for how long nobody knows) to see if I can make it big! You can also watch me be completely addicted to gambling, bet large amounts of money on stupid [censored] like whether or not g2cu won 10K, and try to hide it all from my parents and fiancee! woohoo!

[AlexSem]

Dean,

What are your credentials for doing this. You are asking people on a forum right now. This means you're not sure. You dont' really know what you're doing. You have a good vision of what would be cool - a poker documentary.

You have no idea what goes into this. Unless you have at least gone and studied film in a university for the past 3+ years, you don't know what you're doing.


I think a good analogy to this would be - I wanna make 100k/year in poker I heard it was easy. So should I play tight and bluff and stuff? E-mail me if you know.

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
You have no idea what goes into this. Unless you have at least gone and studied film in a university for the past 3+ years, you don't know what you're doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

try 4 years?

[KRANTZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Dean,

What are your credentials for doing this. You are asking people on a forum right now. This means you're not sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, it means we're trying to find interested and compelling candidates to film. even a film degree hasn't given me the ability to conjure subjects out of thin air or magically produce poll results and the opinions of hundreds of people.

i know many people think we have special powers like that, after all, what else did we do in class but study books of witchcraft? but no, no, we really were just watching battleship potemkin.

[Triumph36]

...damn it, I had the idea for something like this first, though not in this form...

Though I agree with at least the first few responses, a documentary can't be that interesting. Online poker players are quirky for sure, but most of them would be too self-conscious.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Not me, I'm a rock-star. /images/graemlins/grin.gif And how classic would the shot be that has some dudes snorting blow off a hooker's tata in the foreground and then some other dudes grinding online poker in the background. That's some beautiful ish.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

update?

[SlowHabit]

Get that girl with the pnis on her back. I forgot her name but she should be an interesting character to watch [or at least crazy/slutty/emotionally unstable enough to draw some audience].

Get Prahlad. His interviews are awesome and is a "veteran" of online poker and did well at live tourneys. (Paul Wasicka is another good choice since he recently exploded). That's all you need for online poker because like many have mentioned, watching people multi-tabling isn't too hot. I mean, aba didn't even get invited for High Stakes Poker season 4 after he bought in for 750k in season 3!

Playing abroad like KKF or Degen is exotic (and awesome).

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about your idea, but Christopher Guest doing a mockumentary about poker would be awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've made this suggestion before and even have tinkered around with a treatment but just never focused on it like I would have liked to. I think it could be priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]

this could be absolutely amazing.

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
Not me, I'm a rock-star. /images/graemlins/grin.gif And how classic would the shot be that has some dudes snorting blow off a hooker's tata in the foreground and then some other dudes grinding online poker in the background. That's some beautiful ish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any movie with real live footage of actual people snorting actual blow off actual hookers has a good shot.

[Popinjay]

How much experience do you guys have with making movies?

Honestly this sounds like it is doomed to fail. I got to talk with the creators of Wordplay (the crossword doc) and they had been in the biz for 10 yrs. As well they said their movie cost a lot to make (shooting on digital) and even getting distribution at Sundance they only broke even.

[aejones]

With the right direct and insider information, this could definitely succeed.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I think this stuff is very interesting and would make a great watch: I'm probably a few months/years too far behind anything great to be a part of it, but good luck with the subjects you have. I think the entire insight into a bunch of young kids with a whole lot of money is fanastic. The balling out stories, the prop bets, those need to be included obviously, because they are a very real part of this society.

A few suggestions: perhaps in addition to the great longterm winners, you should include a one-hit wonder or so? Maybe it doesn't have to be someone whose success has been only a one time 6-figure tournament score, but that is their primary notoriety. So, find someone that hit 200k and was only up 5k before that or something, or even better- find a player that was breakeven or losing- won 200k, and is still breakeven or losing. There are so many of these tournaments once a week and five times a month or whatever, that I think it's remarkable to find people who have become millionaires (see WCOOP) or even fractional millionaires overnight.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't give a damn about these people and I spite then for the success they've had when I've done so much more studying and playing, and haven't cashed for 6-figures in anything yet, but I think it's interesting at what goes along with it. I mean, what does someone who had $340 in their online poker account do when it says $208,030.25 or something?

Obviously you want to get different facets.. and I think that is definitely one of them. I mean, this jcamby guy won the million for 200k and I'd never heard of him before that, now I see him everywhere (apologies if he is someone). Another different facet is.. perhaps find the 12-20 tabler who mindlessly grinds MSNL cash, or SNGs, and in contrast find the 4-6 tabler who talks about "poker is all about playing the people."

I hope those were valid suggestions. Again, best of luck Krantz and Dean: I'm pulling for you and would like to see the result of this hard work.

Also apologize if anything I said had been previously said, only skimmed half the long thread.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure about your idea, but Christopher Guest doing a mockumentary about poker would be awesome.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've made this suggestion before and even have tinkered around with a treatment but just never focused on it like I would have liked to. I think it could be priceless.

[/ QUOTE ]
this could be absolutely amazing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's hope it will be:

The Grand (http://imdb.com/title/tt0427998/)

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, this jcamby guy won the million for 200k and I'd never heard of him before that, now I see him everywhere (apologies if he is someone).

[/ QUOTE ]
jcamby33 = P0KERPR033 = James Campbell = #1 ranked on pocketfives based on past 12 months MTT performance

[RoundTower]

If you could do Bluescouse (88percent.blogspot.com) that would make great TV.

[Hoi Polloi]

2 words: visual drama.

[Josem]

you literally must include the guy from these two threads:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=987884 9&page=0&fpart=1)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0&fpart=1 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=singletable&Number=101730 63&page=0&fpart=1)

Taxi driver turns pro - playing $3.40 SNGs.