From TAG to LAG...

[stefros]

Hello

i´ve been looking for some LAG articles but i found nothing specific here.

Well, im playing 6max and went to fulltilt yesterday due to bonus, rakeback etc. i used to play NL50, but as it seems on fulltilt the players are a bit better so, after losing 2 Stacks in 24 Hours i went back to NL25 where im trying to rebuild my game a bit, i started 6max as TAG but slightly changed more into the LAG direction, as it is now:

I think the greatest difference is the preflop play.

So i am open raising everything im playing, which is from CO and BU: sc, >A9s, and the usual suspects.

Im very tight on UTG position, and from middle not much loser, but raising pps from every position due to Monster Value.

Well, the recent change in my play was about suited connectors, i always fold them to raises and limp then if i am not folded to, but i never play them from early positions.

I don´t really know in which hands the crucial difference between TAG and LAG lies preflop, would be nice if someone could tell me that /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Im also looking for some LAG Articles, didnt find any here in the "Essential µNL-Selection".


Regards
stef

[DrRock]

read every sticky in the small stakes forum...that will answer all your questions

[stefros]

Well, to be honest i already did that (although i did not understand every detail) but it did not quite answer my Question when to raise/limp preflop.

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, to be honest i already did that (although i did not understand every detail) but it did not quite answer my Question when to raise/limp preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing will...

Without learning a solid, fundamental game, you can not ever hope to play a winning LAG game. By your posts, it seems like you should walk before you run.

[DrRock]

trust me...read everything here and all the digests...your questions will be answered.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post3239210 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3239210&an=0&page=0#Post 3239210)

[ama0330]

Dont bother trying to actively play LAG. Become a good TAG first. For what its worth, all the hands you described above are TAG hands. LAG is primarily a postflop strategy and you cant play it well untill you are a very solid all round player and understand how to apply pressure and when to back off. Its not like "oh, okay im going to play lag now" it just doesnt work like that.

Dave I nailed it.

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, to be honest i already did that (although i did not understand every detail) but it did not quite answer my Question when to raise/limp preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]


That is easy to answer, don't limp pf.

[Antinome]

Raise preflop

[weknowhowtolive]

Super System has a great section on playing a very good LAG style of play.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
Super System has a great section on playing a very good LAG style of play.

[/ QUOTE ]
No no no no no no no no! NO!! Nooooo!!111!
SS/1 and SS/2 are both seriously outdated, and they're tailored for weak/tight games, not the loose/crazy micro/small stakes we play.

To answer your question, you become a lag by playing more hands, and playing them aggressively. Only way you can overcome the inherent weakness in your hand selection is to become better at playing post/flop (hand reading, reading opponents etc).

So if you are super confident in your post-flop game, go ahead and start calling raises with offsuit connectors or King-baby suited. Add more moves like limp/reraising junk, min-raising flops, check-raising with gutshots/air etc.

If you're not confident enough, play a TAG game until you get better at post flop. Then gradually expand your game.

However, I recommend that you only play active LAG as education for higher levels, because it is pretty much certain that TAG play is optimal at micro-stakes and small-stakes.

[weknowhowtolive]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Super System has a great section on playing a very good LAG style of play.

[/ QUOTE ]
No no no no no no no no! NO!! Nooooo!!111!
SS/1 and SS/2 are both seriously outdated, and they're tailored for weak/tight games, not the loose/crazy micro/small stakes we play.

To answer your question, you become a lag by playing more hands, and playing them aggressively. Only way you can overcome the inherent weakness in your hand selection is to become better at playing post/flop (hand reading, reading opponents etc).

So if you are super confident in your post-flop game, go ahead and start calling raises with offsuit connectors or King-baby suited. Add more moves like limp/reraising junk, min-raising flops, check-raising with gutshots/air etc.

If you're not confident enough, play a TAG game until you get better at post flop. Then gradually expand your game.

However, I recommend that you only play active LAG as education for higher levels, because it is pretty much certain that TAG play is optimal at micro-stakes and small-stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]What? Why would you being playing LAG in a LAG game?

SS1/2 arent outdated for playing a good LAG game against tight opponents.

[Gelford]

Sorry mate, I have to second Wolfram here ... SS is interesting, but a blast from the past, The games back then where awfully weaktight ... and more importantly they where a lot more than 100BB deep.

Reading SS as your first book is not optimal, it is interesting enough once you have some skill and can weed out the stuff that does not apply to modern uNL 6max games.

[weknowhowtolive]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry mate, I have to second Wolfram here ... SS is interesting, but a blast from the past, The games back then where awfully weaktight ... and more importantly they where a lot more than 100BB deep.

Reading SS as your first book is not optimal, it is interesting enough once you have some skill and can weed out the stuff that does not apply to modern uNL 6max games.

[/ QUOTE ]No I get that, I'm asking why you would be playing LAG against LAG players.

SS lays out a good LAG strategy and its up to you to adapt it. Every pro who plays an aggressive game will recommend SS.

If you sit down at a 6max game with a bunch of people playing maniac, your optimal style wont be LAG so its kind of a moot point...right?

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
What? Why would you being playing LAG in a LAG game?

[/ QUOTE ]
My point exactly. Low-stakes have much more loose action than big stakes. That's why you shouldn't play LAG. You'll get paid off big time on your big hands, and you don't have the Fold Equity you need to play LAG more successfully than TAG.

High stakes is very different. People don't just randomly stack off with top pair when you hit your sets. That means you will have to make up value by exploiting Fold Equity more.

And many of the games best players play very loosely. I'm talking 40/30 numbers. They make up for their poor starting hands with superior hand reading.

[ QUOTE ]
SS1/2 arent outdated for playing a good LAG game against tight opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
The game has changed, it is much more aggressive than in Doyle's golden days, and the dead money on the table is no longer coming from weak/tighties but from loose/crazies.

Here's the condenced Super System: "Raise a lot preflop, and then push your draws hard."

Now go read 2+2 for real advice.

[weknowhowtolive]

I agree 100% with your first statement, thats exactly what I was saying.

So, would you recommend a more optimal strategy than the ones listed in SS1/2 for this guy when playing against a table of tight opponents?

[Gelford]

I actually think Wolfram just formulated him wrongly. The thing is, uNL'er are not necesarrily lags


You see, the people that Doyle played against wheren't tags, they where just tight nits, and such players you can dominate ... a lot of small pots and then freeriding for the big one is his credo, but then again ... his opponents never checkraised him all in on the turn or called him down with middlepair ... or actually gave him any heat at all.

uNL players are rarely lags, but they also have a tendency to go too far with their hands, you simply do not have SS type FE, and so the system does not work very good.


EDIT: Wolfram has already replied and slightly diffently than I, so this is just my view on things.

[Wolfram]

I think Gelford said what I was trying to say, but more eloquently /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Gelford]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[weknowhowtolive]

Ok I get where you two are coming from...but if thats not the "bible" on LAG play, what would be a better read for our OP here?

[Wolfram]

There are very few good books on NL, especially 6-max. Aba20 actually said there are none. Read 2p2.

[Gelford]

There really is no 'read' as such, as most books are fairly awful ... some ok, but none of them great and those that are ok, do not deal with lag play.

The bible of lag play is such exist are the green plastic video's on cardrunners, the only trouble with those is, that is not a structured instruction manual on lag play, you just get 40 minutes peaks over Taylors shoulder while he plays, and you have to make sense of that yourself. Most cardrunners subscribers (at least me /images/graemlins/grin.gif) start of by spewing massively at first trying to emulate Taylor.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I've been playing pretty lag lately, and its hard as hell. Bluffing in general is hard, and LAGs make a lot of money on bluffs/rebluffs and thin value bets. You can't do that if you can't read hands, and you can't read hands until you play TAG.

[br.bm]

I like to play LAG in 6max only ... LAG simply sucks at fullring.

First of all don't go ahead and say "Ok I play LAG today."
You need a weak table without a callingstation to play LAG.

LAG basic: raise any two Preflop from Button and Cutoff. One or two players call and you take the pot on the flop with a cbet (half pot to 3/4 pot, not more)

Also don't limp. Keep the pressure on your weak opponents. Only don't cbet with air when the flop comes 3-to-a-str8 (789) or 3-to-a-flush (monochrome).
Your goal is to pick up as many pots preflop and on the flop as possible.
When one or two opponents start to call you down lightly (w/ 2nd pair or ace high stuff) change your style. Play some orbits solid TAG. Now they will call all your value bets.

Starting hands:
Button, Cutoff:
Nobody limped: raise any2 about 50% of the time
limpers: raise any2 (~20%)Axs, AJ+, suited connectors,
pockets
raise: call or reraise w/ sc's, AK, AQ, pockets. Sometimes
garbage
MP:
same, without the garbage

From UTG and UTG+1 I like to play TAG style. (raise all pockets, AK, AQ. raise or limp w/ sc's)

any position: somebody raised and another player reraised:
move all in w/ AA and KK, fold everything else

[creamfillin]

[ QUOTE ]
There really is no 'read' as such, as most books are fairly awful ... some ok, but none of them great and those that are ok, do not deal with lag play.

The bible of lag play is such exist are the green plastic video's on cardrunners, the only trouble with those is, that is not a structured instruction manual on lag play, you just get 40 minutes peaks over Taylors shoulder while he plays, and you have to make sense of that yourself. Most cardrunners subscribers (at least me /images/graemlins/grin.gif) start of by spewing massively at first trying to emulate Taylor.

[/ QUOTE ]
Translation please?

[Gelford]

Cardrunners.com

[matrix]

IME at uNL tables generally the best strategy goes something like.

Play LAG (between 40/30 and 30/20) on the button and in the CO .

Play ~20/15 in MP

Play like a very very very tight weak/tight nit in all other positions.
(after 15k hands recently at 10/25NL my UTG numbers are 6/6/oo)

Until you get to 100NL Cardrunners isn't worth it - you won't have developed enough of a game to be able to use the info in the vids effectively (mostly cos you can't read hands well) and your money is better spent on padding the roll you don't have yet - 2p2 is much better imo for uNL stakes.

However once you "graduate" to 100NL (have the roll AND are a proven winner over a 30K+ sample) then I'd say that a cardrunners sub is *essential* for todays loose crazy games and you are hurting your game by not subscribing.

as far as books go read getting started in Holdem to get some basics down. Other books again aren't too useful till 100NL+ Once you know more what you are doing read NLTAP TOP and the HOH books. but tbh you don't need to and 2p2 is way better reading anyways.

[corsakh]

I'd say cardrunners are extremely effective no matter the stakes. Putting reads aside, they concentrate on one important thing that every beginner struggles to understand - position. And potision play is pretty much all you need to beat micros /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kazana]

Unsurprisingly, matrix has nailed it yet again. Well, in my opinion anyway.

I'm playing similar to his outlined style, only quite a bit tighter on the CO/BTN. 40/30 - 30/20 sound about optimal, but you need really good skills post-flop to play that loose effectively.
Note that the difference between VPIP and PFR mainly come from the hands you've cold-called with, you should hardly ever limp from those positions. And those cold-called hands are the ones where you can get yourself into a pile of problems if your reads aren't spot on.

So, by running more at ~25/18 in CO/BTN and ~16/13 in MP I can avoid a few difficult situations (and mistakes) post-flop.
And by playing squeeky tight in the blinds I try to minimize my losses there. Don't bother to defend, you can get your blinds back by stealing relentlessly.

Just playing LAG because that's what the cool kids do shouldn't be your motivation. If you're getting bored with TAG at uNL, add more tables rather than adding more minor EV hands to your lineup.

[stefros]

Ah thanks for all the answers, i think i didn´t quite understand what LAG really ment.

If you say raising baby Kings and Crap and Stuff, thats far from what im doing, only thing i added on CO and BU are sc´s, i thought that was what lag is all about... allthough i only raised them when folded to, but if you say its ok to raise on limpers ill try that.

Well, i am already rather aggressive Postflop and cant often tell what villain got if he is not slowplaying some Monsters but that is unforseeable anyway.

Im never going to play FR anymore btw /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Also thanks for that Link to SSNL Master sticky, i´ve only been around in the µNL section until now, and im through that articles, so i think the ones from SSNL might really help me /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[br.bm]

hand reading is much about hand ranges
say somebody called you PF and the flop comes:
A27
he checks, you bet and he calls

well ... his range is something like "AK,AQ,AJ etc", a str8 or a Flushdraw, maybe medium pockets or a set.
Maybe you can eliminate the strong Aces because he would have bet them himself.
When you have played the turn and river you have a much better idea about his hand. Say he checkraised you on the turn. Screams like a set or twopair.
Flush came on the turn he checks, you bet and he open raises the river? Well, looks like he's got a flush.

You'll get a better and better feel about those things.

[boycalledroy]

I thought LAG was raising weakness more than playing cards. Where as TAG is raising cards more than playing weakness.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought LAG was raising weakness more than playing cards. Where as TAG is raising cards more than playing weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

you thought wrong.

there is a huge misconception about what TAG really is imo.

at the risk of some shameless self promotion have a looksee at the TAG vs LAG article I wrote as a pooh bah post a while back (it's in the SSNL Master Sticky somewhere wit the other pooh bah posts) - while you're there go look and read through all of the other sticky threads in SSNL as well (there are lots of them - and lots of it is relative to uNL as back in the day there was no micro forum and SSNL covered micro stakes as well.)

There is much better - and more useful info - in the SSNL Master Sticky than you'll get in *any* NL book. [better cos the threads in it were written by people playing and beating the games you have trouble with - AND you can get instant feedback usually from the person that wrote the article in the first place]

Thats not to say the books out there aren't worth reading - but by and large for beginner level stuff 2p2 takes the cake (AND it's free)

You'll get most value out of the books around and out of cardrunners if you have the basics sorted - uNL limits are where beginner poker players learn their trade. It's very very very basic poker down here. I know I struggled for a long time before I got the hang of it and it used to annoy me when some old timer came in and said that 25NL was really easy cos for a long time I thought it was quite tricky.

For a beginner uNL is NOT easy. but compared to the rest of the limits and taking into account how much knowledge and experience you need to have before you can even hope to beat the game long term uNL is a walk in the park.

Play basic ABC TAG poker - learn to value bet - learn to be patient - learn that "downswings" happen to everyone and some weeks you can't do more than break even no matter how well you play, the swing of positive and negative variance is to be expected, it's totally nomal to sometimes lose 10 allins in a row to 2 outters and if you let results mess with your head thats when it can all go very wrong very quick. - learn to get over that and learn that results in each individual hand you play DO NOT MATTER - learn that every mistake you make costs you money - and learn that you "earn" money when your opponent makes a mistake either that you got them to make or they made all by themselves - learn all of this and learn what TAG play is and what it involves.

The general idea down here is to learn basic TAG play - get used to what can happen - prove that you're a winning player and then move upwards and onwards.

All of the standard advice that the regs give here is "standard TAG" play for the most part. At uNL level it's probably the most optimal way to play because of the style of opponents we face most of. (Loose/Passives)

Post hands where you are lost - try and identify the posters that seem to give the best advice and then read as much of what they write as you can - if you see something you don't agree with - or that you don't understand SAY SOMETHING.

When I first started posting at 2p2 lots of my ideas got laughed at - stuff I wrote was waaaaaaaay off the mark, but by posting it and getting put right I learned lots, I'm still learning now. DOn't ever assume that because <regular> said this is correct - that it really is correct - everyone makes mistakes.

Think about everything you read - and try to work out why you need to do things and your game will improve really fast and before long you too will find these levels simple - and will be playing much higher than $25NL.

[EMc]

Sorry but there is nothing you can "read" and magically become LAG. To be a good LAG you a. usually need the personally and hence are able to be a LAG and b. Need to learn how to be on your own.

[Freelancer]

If you have to ask how to become a LAG your not ready yet.

[br.bm]

LAG is about picking small pots while trying to play big pots.

You need this style to beat people who aren't willing to go broke with less then a set.
As long as you have two or more suckers at the table keep playing TAG.
In my experience you dont need LAG before NL100.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
LAG is about picking small pots while trying to avoid playing big pots.

You need this style to beat people who aren't willing to go broke with less then a set.
As long as you have two or more suckers at the table keep playing TAG.
In my experience you dont need LAG before NL2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LAG is about picking small pots while trying to avoid playing big pots.

You need this style to beat people who aren't willing to go broke with less then a set.
As long as you have two or more suckers at the table keep playing TAG.
In my experience you dont need LAG before NL2000.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT

[br.bm]

why do you avoid big pots?
(big pots with big hands of course)

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you avoid big pots?
(big pots with big hands of course)

[/ QUOTE ]
The good part is 'big pots with big hands of course' wich is EXACTLY what I mean. You don't pick up big hands all that often (if you do, ehm teach me??) so your usually trying to avoid big pots. If you do pick up a big hand and you keep up the agression the big (HUGE) pot will follow naturally !!

[stefros]

i got a little Question about sc´s:

What are the Odds to flop:
oesd
flushdraw
straight
flush
?

Is it possible to cold call a raise with them just for the draws? Like with pps?

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
i got a little Question about sc´s:

What are the Odds to flop:
oesd
flushdraw
straight
flush
?

Is it possible to cold call a raise with them just for the draws? Like with pps?

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have the implied odds to call a raise with suited connectors, if you do call you need to be prepared to make a move on some flops.

[stefros]

Ok thanks, im askin cos i saw that once and was just wondering... so i keep raising or folding them /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok thanks, im askin cos i saw that once and was just wondering... so i keep raising and folding them /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[br.bm]

do you really fold sc's in position for a raise to 4BB?

[stefros]

Yes, i really seldomly hit with them /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jouster777]

In addition to the good general answers to your question below, check out this for specifics: SC percentages (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=69 96709&PHPSESSID=&fpart=)

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
Thats not to say the books out there aren't worth reading - but by and large for beginner level stuff 2p2 takes the cake (AND it's free)


[/ QUOTE ]
Also for a look into what a LAG is thinking...check out Thac's video from yesterday: video link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Board=microplnl&Number=9357 103&Searchpage=2&Main=9357103&Words=thac&topic=&Se arch=true#Post9357103)

[monkover]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, i really seldomly hit with them /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You really have to get that out of you head... That kind of thinking affects your play in a negative way. When I started playing poker none of my fd ever got there and then I started felting them because they "never" arrive... even if I got the right odds to call! /images/graemlins/wink.gif pretty stupid huh?
Don´t even start thinking this way...

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
do you really fold sc's in position for a raise to 4BB?

[/ QUOTE ]
lol I actually 3bet/fold everything but PP's to a raise. And I regularily 3bet small PP's as well...

I seriously doubt I am giving up a lot of ev.

[br.bm]

thx for the links /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Montezuma21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do you really fold sc's in position for a raise to 4BB?

[/ QUOTE ]
lol I actually 3bet/fold everything but PP's to a raise. And I regularily 3bet small PP's as well...

I seriously doubt I am giving up a lot of ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously? so UTG+1 raises, you 3bet AJs OTB?

MATRIX: 6/6? do you play all PPs UTG?

Also: to the OP. IMHO LAG play is much less formulaic than TAG play. you just "feel" that UTG is scared money and will therefore fold to your PF 3-bet, or that CO doesn't know how to adjust so you should keep pounding on him whereas BTN is getting frustrated and is gonna start playing back at you, so you should tighten up when in a pot with him. the concept of a starting hand chart is ludicrous for LAG play.

when you feel your hand reading skills are up to scratch, start slow:

1. increase your 3-betting range in position v weak opponents
2. float more IF you think you can steal the pot on a later street
3. trust your reads completely and go with them

[br.bm]

bump

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
do you really fold sc's in position for a raise to 4BB?

[/ QUOTE ]
lol I actually 3bet/fold everything but PP's to a raise. And I regularily 3bet small PP's as well...

I seriously doubt I am giving up a lot of ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously? so UTG+1 raises, you 3bet AJs OTB?

MATRIX: 6/6? do you play all PPs UTG?

Also: to the OP. IMHO LAG play is much less formulaic than TAG play. you just "feel" that UTG is scared money and will therefore fold to your PF 3-bet, or that CO doesn't know how to adjust so you should keep pounding on him whereas BTN is getting frustrated and is gonna start playing back at you, so you should tighten up when in a pot with him. the concept of a starting hand chart is ludicrous for LAG play.

when you feel your hand reading skills are up to scratch, start slow:

1. increase your 3-betting range in position v weak opponents
2. float more IF you think you can steal the pot on a later street
3. trust your reads completely and go with them


[/ QUOTE ]
Meh against a UTG+1 opening I just fold it...

If he opened in the CO I'd probably 3bet it.

Also I 3bet nearly everything from the blinds against a LP open (including small PP's) IF I think villain is decent, if he's crap I call with PP's and fold the rest...