Hypothetical Reincarnation Poll

[Tablerat]

I've lightly browsed this forum and have a meager appreciation of the more commonly discussed topics. I did a search before I posted and did not find a similar question, so apologies if this is irrelevant to the forum or too simplistic/hypothetical.

My two questions, also in poll format are:

1) If you were to die this year, and just before death were given the option of what I'll call random reincarnation into a human child of either sex on this planet within the following year (I believe the current number is around 75 million births worldwide/year), would you accept this offer? Why or why not?

2) Same situation, but the deity instead offers you a singular choice of reincarnation on another planet in a randomly chosen universe as a similarly self-aware and intelligent organism, but with some obvious differences from humans that are not revealed to you. You have no other information presented to you about the planet or its life, except that you will be born and self-aware and not exactly human-like (i.e. It is not a perfectly mirrored planet). Do you accept this unique offer?

Importantly, and in both offers, you will not have any knowledge of your current life. You are as bound to your random conditions of life as you personally view human or intelligent life is now. Whatever the view. The alternatives to both options are unknown, but your current belief system may satisfy that unknown. The question you receive is also randomly selected, so you would, at the time, not have knowledge of the alternative option presented here.

I have a dilemma with my questions, but I'll wait to see if this thread gains any ground before I become even more confused.

[madnak]

I'll say yes to both. I think most people ilve +EV lives from their perspectives these days. I think that trend is increasing, and the number of people afflicted with really terrible suffering is going down consistently.

As for the universe, I can't see the EV of that decision being less than 0. I'm not sure if it's more, either, but I think the pure experiential value would probably make it so (if nothing else).

[Prodigy54321]

yes for both...but basically just because I consider myself to be generally good for the world...the choice doesn't really affect the person making the choice though...being reincarnated without any memory of your current life is essentially the same as just another random person being born...

I guess this isn't true if you believe in some kind of "soul"

EDIT: not to mention the fact that much of who you are will chance during your early life..

are we talking about being born genetically the same?

without being either genetically the same, or retaining memory, why are considering this new person as us anyway?

[Tablerat]

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being reincarnated without any memory of your current life is essentially the same as just another random person being born...

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Exactly. I just mentioned that as a qualifier in my post. I guess the main undercurrent of my first question is whether a random human life and its specific conditions is something you would desire again in 2008, if given the choice before a premature death this year. I included the paragraph about personal belief in order to not disqualify anyone based on their particular beliefs.

[vhawk01]

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being reincarnated without any memory of your current life is essentially the same as just another random person being born...

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Exactly. I just mentioned that as a qualifier in my post. I guess the main undercurrent of my first question is whether a random human life and its specific conditions is something you would desire again in 2008, if given the choice before a premature death this year. I included the paragraph about personal belief in order to not disqualify anyone based on their particular beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but its a misleading use of the word 'you.' If I have no memory and I am a new person, how am I still 'me?' I guess I would look at this as exactly neutral EV, since there would be no difference to me in choosing yes or no. Either way I wink out of existence forever.

[Tablerat]

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being reincarnated without any memory of your current life is essentially the same as just another random person being born...

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I just mentioned that as a qualifier in my post. I guess the main undercurrent of my first question is whether a random human life and its specific conditions is something you would desire again in 2008, if given the choice before a premature death this year. I included the paragraph about personal belief in order to not disqualify anyone based on their particular beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but its a misleading use of the word 'you.' If I have no memory and I am a new person, how am I still 'me?' I guess I would look at this as exactly neutral EV, since there would be no difference to me in choosing yes or no. Either way I wink out of existence forever.

[/ QUOTE ]


vhawk01,

I should have admitted up front that there are numerous flaws in my hypothetical questions in terms of logic, etc. The first is that I should have entitled the post "Rebirth Poll". Major mistake on my part, because my original title is steering away from where I originally wanted to go. I could have more narrowly tailored my question to "You die tomorrow. Do you want to be reborn as a completely separate, unique and random human in a year?" I threw in the parts about your current personal beliefs and attitudes to encourage diversity in answers beyond pure statistics and EV calculations, if it's possible. The last sentence in your post is more along the lines of one area this dialogue can go, but I purposely omitted the deity telling you whether or not you would retain any parts of you in the reborn life. Simply put, the first word that pops into my head for this subject is reincarnation and not rebirth or even born again, and it is simply a matter of semantics for me in this particular post.

Also, I should have clarified in the first poll question that it is human rebirth, that may not be clear to someone not reading the preceding paragraphs. This was the first time I've put these thoughts in writing, so they are surely rudimentary.

[madnak]

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Right, but its a misleading use of the word 'you.' If I have no memory and I am a new person, how am I still 'me?' I guess I would look at this as exactly neutral EV, since there would be no difference to me in choosing yes or no. Either way I wink out of existence forever.

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I assumed the question included the assumption of experiential continuity. That is, one second you're a dying vhawk, the next you're a newborn baby. Whether this is actually meaningful or possible is obviously debatable.

[arahant]

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being reincarnated without any memory of your current life is essentially the same as just another random person being born...

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I just mentioned that as a qualifier in my post. I guess the main undercurrent of my first question is whether a random human life and its specific conditions is something you would desire again in 2008, if given the choice before a premature death this year. I included the paragraph about personal belief in order to not disqualify anyone based on their particular beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but its a misleading use of the word 'you.' If I have no memory and I am a new person, how am I still 'me?' I guess I would look at this as exactly neutral EV, since there would be no difference to me in choosing yes or no. Either way I wink out of existence forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, something must be carried over, or it's not reincarnation, right?

I should really say no...I assume for the purposes of this question that qualities like intellect and humor will be lost, while some more basic soul would be retained. And if I have a soul, it's evil, and only balanced by these other traits /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Tablerat]

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Well, something must be carried over, or it's not reincarnation, right?

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This is where I royally fudged up in the wording of my post; I don't want you to assume anything beyond your personal beliefs on the subject. Specifically, if I believe that a newborn baby anywhere in the world already has something more, in an ethereal sense, than its basic anatomical structures, then I would answer the question a certain way. And if I simply believe that a baby is born with a blank slate - a tiny, precious bag of organs, but really not much else, at the mercy of its immediate and global environment to be forever imprinted with those specific values, beliefs, intelligence, meaning, etc., then I would probably answer the question in a different way.

As I stated before, I should have been more explicit, but because I wasn't so careful, I am essentially beginning to mold my beliefs on the matter of the eternity of soul and the like. And that is partially why I posited the questions. Another reason, not to be treated as mutually exclusive if possible, is whether you would have that desire to live again, in a random environment on this planet or another, just as randomly as you, in my current opinion, are now.

[vhawk01]

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Right, but its a misleading use of the word 'you.' If I have no memory and I am a new person, how am I still 'me?' I guess I would look at this as exactly neutral EV, since there would be no difference to me in choosing yes or no. Either way I wink out of existence forever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed the question included the assumption of experiential continuity. That is, one second you're a dying vhawk, the next you're a newborn baby. Whether this is actually meaningful or possible is obviously debatable.

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And really that, to me at least, is the only point that matters. If thats the case, then the answer is an obvious yes, if that isn't the case, the answer is an obvious 'sure, who cares either way?'

[vhawk01]

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Well, something must be carried over, or it's not reincarnation, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I royally fudged up in the wording of my post; I don't want you to assume anything beyond your personal beliefs on the subject. Specifically, if I believe that a newborn baby anywhere in the world already has something more, in an ethereal sense, than its basic anatomical structures, then I would answer the question a certain way. And if I simply believe that a baby is born with a blank slate - a tiny, precious bag of organs, but really not much else, at the mercy of its immediate and global environment to be forever imprinted with those specific values, beliefs, intelligence, meaning, etc., then I would probably answer the question in a different way.

As I stated before, I should have been more explicit, but because I wasn't so careful, I am essentially beginning to mold my beliefs on the matter of the eternity of soul and the like. And that is partially why I posited the questions. Another reason, not to be treated as mutually exclusive if possible, is whether you would have that desire to live again, in a random environment on this planet or another, just as random as you, in my current opinion, are now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those aren't my only two choices, though. A random baby isn't born as a blank slate, ready to be imprinted with its culture and experiences. A baby is an animal with a brain that is already wired up in a human fashion, and it is this wiring that allows it to properly process its experiences and culture.

But that doesn't make it me. I think you are implying some sort of soul or essence or something that would make a baby me in some ethereal sense. Thats fine if you really think thats legitimate, and I understand thats sort of the point of your question. But to me, the only thing that makes 'me
' me is the continuity of my experiences, and more specifically, my memory. My body doesn't make me me, my mind doesn't, and I don't think I have a soul. The only part I would need to keep is my memory, and you've eliminated that in the OP. So, like I said, flip a coin, it doesn't matter to 'whatever random baby is going to be born that I don't consider me.'

[Tablerat]

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And really that, to me at least, is the only point that matters. If thats the case, then the answer is an obvious yes, if that isn't the case, the answer is an obvious 'sure, who cares either way?'

[/ QUOTE ]

So, I'm trying to have you make the case, based on your beliefs you currently hold, not on some assumption that you think I am making. Again, sorry for the roundabout method, as I'm a true novice at this, but maybe we can get past my bumbling choice of words.

[vhawk01]

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And really that, to me at least, is the only point that matters. If thats the case, then the answer is an obvious yes, if that isn't the case, the answer is an obvious 'sure, who cares either way?'

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So, I'm trying to have you make the case, based on your beliefs you currently hold, not on some assumption that you think I am making. Again, sorry for the roundabout method, as I'm a true novice at this, but maybe we can get past my bumbling choice of words.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your choice of words was fine. The way you worded it, I would honestly not care either way. If you are asking me "under which conditions would you take a vested interest in the outcome," the answer is that I would need a continuity of my experience to carry over. Under those circumstances, I would be willing to take my chances being born as a random human, and also as a random sentient being in the universe.

[Tablerat]

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Those aren't my only two choices, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or anywhere in between. I was just giving two polar examples. I'm not setting limits beyond the basics of my question, which is at the heart of my dilemma.

I think you are making my point for me, but I'm not dialectically sound enough to clarify my position yet. That's my point, I don't want assumptions beyond yours, whatever they may be, in answering these questions. Don't worry about what I think. I was hoping to be inspired or deflated by the words of others, including you, who may post.

[Tablerat]

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I would need a continuity of my experience to carry over.

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Perfect. This is really striking a chord with my line of questioning. OK, can you elaborate what this means to you? You say you would need this continuity; in my question, there is no mentioning of that guarantee - how do you proceed?

[vhawk01]

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I would need a continuity of my experience to carry over.

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Perfect. This is really striking a chord with my line of questioning. OK, can you elaborate what this means to you? You say you would need this continuity; in my question, there is no mentioning of that guarantee - how do you proceed?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no mention of the guarantee, but you seemed to explicitly forbid it. If its just a possibility, it makes the choice +EV, and I would choose to be reincarnated in either situation. I can't really imagine how reincarnation is going to be -EV in any of these scenarios.

[madnak]

Right. I like "yes" better than "no" anyhow.