Islamic Violence in the South of Thailand

[fish2plus2]

I am creaating this thread because I do not think this information is widely (if at all) discussed in the Western media. Thailand is a buddhist country, but they are dealing with similar problems as Israel and France are facing in regards to minority Islamic extremists.

Wikipedia Link with all relative information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattani_separatism)

Cliff Notes Over 80% of the population in Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat continue to adhere to Islam. However, the Pattani Malays have little sense of connection with the Malays of modern Malaysia, and they speak a distinct local version of the language known as Yawi.

Renewed agitation began in the 1990s, led by Malay intellectuals influenced by revolutionary and Islamist ideas from the Middle East .

There has been a separatist movement in Pattani since at least the 1930s.

In April 2004, troops killed over 100 Muslim men in Yala province who attacked well-defended police stations with only light weapons, in what police described as "suicidal" attacks.

In 2004 General Panlop Pinmanee said that there were only 500 hard-core insurgents. Other estimates say there as many as 15,000 armed insurgents.

Unfortunately, the situation to deteriorated from 2005 to 2006, with escalating violence , especially among teachers and civilians. **Everyday on the nightly news they will give a report on the daily killings and violence in the south. Buddhist teachers are often kidnipped and beheaded.**

On March 2005, respected former Prime Minister Anand Panyarachun was appointed as chairman of the National Reconciliation Commission Anand finally submitted the NRC's recommendations on 5 June 2006:

Introducing Islamic law
Making ethnic Pattani-Malay (Yawi) as a working language in the region
Establishing an unarmed peacekeeping force
Establishing a Peaceful Strategic Administrative Centre for Southern Border Provinces

the recommendations were vigorously opposed by Prem Tinsulanonda, the President of King Bhumibol Adulyadej's Privy Council, who stated "We cannot accept that [proposal] as we are Thai. The country is Thai and the language is Thai... We have to be proud to be Thai and have the Thai language as the sole national language"

On 1 September 2006, General Sonthi announced that he would break with the government no-negotiation policy. However, he noted that "We still don't know who is the real head of the militants we are fighting with."

From January 2004 to October 2006, 1,815 people were killed and 2,729 were wounded in the insurgency.

Feb 20 : In their most significant act of economic terrorism and arson to date, insurgents burned down the Southland Rubber warehouse in Yala, destroying 400 million baht worth of rubber and engulfing Yala city in a dense cloud of black smoke for 12 hours.

During the Chinese New Year weekend, insurgents executed 38 bombing attacks, 26 cases of arson, and seven ambushes. The bombings targeted hotels, karaoke bars, power grids and commercial sites. Two public schools were torched.

My Opinions The Thai government has done a very poor job at controlling the unrest, but I have to be sympathetic towards them. It must be horrible to live in a place where there is daily violence and you do not even know who is causing exactly. But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them?

[adsman]

Interesting post. I'm surprised that this isn't getting any media coverage here in Europe considering how Thailand is such a huge holiday destination for Europeans.

[Victor]

"But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them? "

or just kill them all.

[fish2plus2]

[ QUOTE ]
"But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them? "

or just kill them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you give some examples of countries where this worked?

[edfurlong]

The US?

[fish2plus2]

All twelve of American's terrorists died on September 11th.
Thailand's situation is different.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
All twelve of American's terrorists died on September 11th.
Thailand's situation is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Thai position on the Southern Malay states is pretty unsustainable. I am unclear whether the seperatists want independence or to join Malaysia but, whatever, there is no historical or moral case for Thai control of this region and it creates huge problems for what is otherwise a coherent and relatively homogeneous nation state.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

It is discussed in Norwegian media, I guess it is because it is a popular tourist destination for Norwegians. But what exactly do you think is similar to France or Israel? It seems to me it is very different, that only the religion is the common element.

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]

"But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them? "

or just kill them all.



can you give some examples of countries where this worked?


[/ QUOTE ]

peru baby.

[Colt McCoy]

Just write a news story suggesting these extremists have weapons of mass destruction at their disposal. Submit it for publication. Then wait for the U.S. to take care of it.

[fish2plus2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All twelve of American's terrorists died on September 11th.
Thailand's situation is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Thai position on the Southern Malay states is pretty unsustainable. I am unclear whether the seperatists want independence or to join Malaysia but, whatever, there is no historical or moral case for Thai control of this region and it creates huge problems for what is otherwise a coherent and relatively homogeneous nation state.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. They have the freedom to practice their own religion. They have rights as every other Thai citizen. They are represented in the government. Thailand has controlled these regions for over a hundred years.

It is only a small minority causing the problems:

"Pattani separatist groups, most notably the Patani United Liberation Organization (PULO), began to use violent tactics in 2001. There have been suggestions of links between PULO and foreign Islamist groups such as al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah. A number of Pattani Muslims are reported to have received training at al-Qaida centres in Pakistan, and the Pattani insurgents have forged links with groups such as the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in the Philippines and the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) in Indonesia. Estimates of rebel strength vary widely from only 500 to more than 15,000."

[octopi]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting post. I'm surprised that this isn't getting any media coverage here in Europe considering how Thailand is such a huge holiday destination for Europeans.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't you? The last thing Thailand needs right now is LESS visitors.

It's a sad situation. I used to live in Songkhla. The last time I was in the area was about five years ago, when I revisited my 'hometown' and crossed the border via train from Sungai Kolok / Malaysia. I was astounded when I started to hear of the violence at the border crossings and markets, and how more recently it really has spread up to more central areas like Hat Yai. Unfortunately, until it really starts to hit Phuket, then eventually Bangkok, I doubt anything will really be done about it. Let's hope it doesn't get to that point.

In some ways, it kind of reminds me of what is going on in parts of Indonesia right now.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All twelve of American's terrorists died on September 11th.
Thailand's situation is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Thai position on the Southern Malay states is pretty unsustainable. I am unclear whether the seperatists want independence or to join Malaysia but, whatever, there is no historical or moral case for Thai control of this region and it creates huge problems for what is otherwise a coherent and relatively homogeneous nation state.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. They have the freedom to practice their own religion. They have rights as every other Thai citizen. They are represented in the government. Thailand has controlled these regions for over a hundred years.

It is only a small minority causing the problems:

"Pattani separatist groups, most notably the Patani United Liberation Organization (PULO), began to use violent tactics in 2001. There have been suggestions of links between PULO and foreign Islamist groups such as al-Qaeda and Jemaah Islamiyah. A number of Pattani Muslims are reported to have received training at al-Qaida centres in Pakistan, and the Pattani insurgents have forged links with groups such as the Moro Islamic Liberation Front in the Philippines and the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) in Indonesia. Estimates of rebel strength vary widely from only 500 to more than 15,000."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all true. Nevertheless, "over a hundred years" is basically 100 years. It was a straightforward colonial takeover and however, small a minority oppose it, is fundamentally impossible to justify. Naturally, many states have to justify similar takeovers and territorial faits accompli, but this, in particular, always struck me particularly iffy. I mean, Thailand annexed most of Laos a few hundred years ago but at least Laos share a culture, race and more or less a language.

This problem is not going to go away. The Kurdish problem in Turkey is not going to go away. Nor the ETA problem in Spain. And the stance of the governments is, simply, impossible to justify. Just because I stole something a long time ago doesn't make me less of a thief.

Also, only a small minority is ever active anywhere.

[mikechops]

[ QUOTE ]
All twelve of American's terrorists died on September 11th.
Thailand's situation is different.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you missed the point? The British Empire eventually rewarded Washington's terrorists with their own country and things worked out pretty well since then.

I don't know [censored] about Thailand, but generally, if there is a substantial area of the country where people speak a different language, follow a different religion and desire to separate from the mainland, then they should get their way. Why would you support a government that is seeking to deny them that?

[C-Dog]

The problem will never go away until the Sharia Law is imposed in the areas where the Muslim's live. Even then they will just keep fighting in an effort to impose Sharia Law in the rest of the country too. You can't live with Muslim Fundamentalists/Non Progressives. It is either Islam or Death for them.

The only real answer is to get them all out of your country, and to maintain your culture with all the effort you can muster.

C-Dog

ED: C-Dog. I've deleted your reference and link. A quick persual of the blog shows that his viewpoint is aligned with Faith Freedom International's: "Its goals are to (a) unmask Islam and show that it is an imperialistic ideology akin to Nazism but disguised as religion ... We strive for the unity of Mankind through the elimination of Islam, the most insidious doctrine of hate." To be honest, I personally am in favor of openly debating things like this and don't care about links, but 2+2 policy is clear that links to sites like that are not goign to be allowed here. You'll notice I did not delete your comments above. You are welcome to express your viewpoints and debate them as long as it doesn't turn into a flamefest. Also, feel free to link to any such statistics from government reports or other such sources.

[fish2plus2]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because I stole something a long time ago doesn't make me less of a thief.

Also, only a small minority is ever active anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

So these provinces and the 2 million people who live there should be turned over to the separtists abducting female teachers, setting them on fire, and cutting off their heads?

[Melchiades]

I cringe everytime I see that entry from a borderline naziblog being posted together with the word Norway. Could people please stop?

ED: See my comments above, M.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them? "

or just kill them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you give some examples of countries where this worked?

[/ QUOTE ]

usa and australia.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because I stole something a long time ago doesn't make me less of a thief.

Also, only a small minority is ever active anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

So these provinces and the 2 million people who live there should be turned over to the separtists abducting female teachers, setting them on fire, and cutting off their heads?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his point is that while only a small minority gets off their butts to blow themselves up, they are often speaking for a wider part of the community.

Islamic radicalism aside, there are similarities between this situation and the problems the Italian government had with the South Tyrolean region of Northern Italy after WWII. South Tyrol was ceded to the Italians after WWI, and the locals weren't too happy about it. After WWII things got nasty, and they started bombing and shooting and doing terrorist-type stuff. There were only a handful of terrorists but these guys are living heroes now.

Eventually the Italians got tired of this and just gave them everything they wanted; German language, semi-autonomy, tax breaks, etc. It's now the most prosperous region in Italy.

Sometimes things can be worked out. Not so sure about the Islamic law bit though. That seems kinda harsh.

[ChicagoTroy]

This will come to a head and the government will crack down. No minority will be allowed to pose an existential threat to a country.

Interesting stuff from the Australian Treasury Minister:
http://www.classbrain.com/artread/publish/costello_australia_muslim.shtml

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand."

"This idea of Austrailia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."

"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

[Colt McCoy]

Please stop comparing this to the American Revolution. It's retarded. I'm not that familiar with the Thai situation, but are these people being taxed into poverty by a government thousands of miles away. Are armed soldiers indiscriminately taking whatever they want from them? Are they pioneers that actually settled this land? If so, did Thailand just unilaterally decide to annex the region? Did they move to this place fleeing tyranny or religious oppression?

[Boris]

How on earth could you possibly justify the Thai government giving up control of the provinces to psycho muslim terrorists? Given the current state of affairs it sounds like the gov't has no other choice but to impose strict martial law in the affected areas. What about all the poor folks in those areas that don't want to live under the tyranny of a morally reprehensible philosophy espoused by Islamic terrorists?

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just because I stole something a long time ago doesn't make me less of a thief.

Also, only a small minority is ever active anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

So these provinces and the 2 million people who live there should be turned over to the separtists abducting female teachers, setting them on fire, and cutting off their heads?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying what should happen. I'm simply saying that the Thai government's position is untenable because Thai control of this region is untenable. It should also be said that Thaksin's attempts to deal with the situation were hamfisted at best and have exacerbated the situation. It is a very familiar dynamic. What is also familiar is that these situations never end with the larger 'nation' successfully, peacefully and irrevocably absorbing the smaller 'nation'

[registrar]

It's also as well to note that freedom of the press in Thailand is at it's lowest ebb in two decades and that the government has an interest in painting this movement as entirely religious, rather than ethnic, seperatist movement. This is not to say one way or the other but it's quite difficult to get a perspective on Thailand from within Thailand.

[C-Dog]

[ QUOTE ]
I cringe everytime I see that entry from a borderline naziblog being posted together with the word Norway. Could people please stop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not like it, but it appears the statistics are there to support it. I apologize it happens to be your country that the reports are on. The same basic thing applies many places I am sure. I just don't see backing down and integration to be answer to the sort of things that are happening in places like Thailand. I think the Australian government has it right. Too bad the US won't ever actually come out and make a statement like that.

C-Dog

[C-Dog]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also as well to note that freedom of the press in Thailand is at it's lowest ebb in two decades and that the government has an interest in painting this movement as entirely religious, rather than ethnic, seperatist movement. This is not to say one way or the other but it's quite difficult to get a perspective on Thailand from within Thailand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It probably is religious. I doubt it's just painted that way.

C-Dog

[Colt McCoy]

Who else lives in this region besides these extremists? What % of the population there do they make up? Historically who has governed the region? What are the primary sources of income for the people there? Who takes over and under what form of government if Thailand exits? Is this one of those [censored] up places over there that are run by drug warlords?

[KJS]

I did a little reporting on this when working for the Irrawaddy Magazine (www.irrawaddy.org). I am not going to come out and say that religion plays no part in this conflict, it does. But I would say that the religion aspect is played up too much. I think that there are a lot of criminals in that area who are all too pleased to cover their activities in some cloak of religion. And I think that people in the West calling it all Islamic Violence without analyzing the economic and criminal underpinnings of the activities in that area are missing the whole point as well. It is also notable that whenever someone in the Thai government points out that there is a very common criminal element at play, they are also ridiculed for not acknowledging the religious elements.

That is not to say that I don't believe that religion does not play a part. I think it does but not as much as people say. There are plenty of Muslims in many areas of Thailand that are not rising up against the state and not running to the South to get involved in what is happening there. There is, IMO, also a very obvious criminal element to this. It is my experience from having lived there and worked as a reporter there that in a corrupt country you have to look closely at who benefits from unrest like this and who stands to gain the most if the aims of the agitators are met. My belief is that in a border area like this you are going to see power grabs by criminal gangs that would benefit greatly from relaxed border controls (note how many border patrol have been killed in the conflict) or border controls manned by local, not national, personnel. There is a huge economic upside for smugglers if they can get their cronies in control of the border so their stolen goods, drugs, illegal immigrants, etc.. can get in and out much more easily. I am 100% certain this conflict would not be as widescale if it happened in Sukothai or elsewhere in the middle of the country.

The border aspect is also an attraction for SE Asia groups like JI. Remember that one of their main operatives was arrested in Thailand. They see the benefit in having a free flow of money, goods and people from Indonesia all the way to Bangkok. That way they can expand their fundraising empire and whatever illegal businesses they are in.

Overall, I view the region as a battleground for all kinds of illicit money based on cheap drugs, arms, human smuggling and counterfeit goods. The police and Thai army are very much a player in this struggle as many of their members are directly involved. Remember the drug war of 2002 and how the cops and army used it to kill at will and consolidate their power in the trade. On the other side are local gang leaders who are in bed with religous leaders. Just as Hamas or Hezbollah win the hearts and minds of the locals by providing them in ways the government can't and propandizing against the government powers, these groups will use religion as a way to unite the people behind them and get soldiers to do dirty work that does more to consolidate the power of the leaders in the area than it does to help the local population. The fact that the locals have very real grievances against the government makes it even more complicated.

I don't see how this can end well.

KJS

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's also as well to note that freedom of the press in Thailand is at it's lowest ebb in two decades and that the government has an interest in painting this movement as entirely religious, rather than ethnic, seperatist movement. This is not to say one way or the other but it's quite difficult to get a perspective on Thailand from within Thailand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It probably is religious. I doubt it's just painted that way.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that it's not, I would imagine, exclusively religious. I would imagine that you have the usual dynamic of increasing parochialism caused by increasing interference in an age of improved communications. This is then exacerbated by a vocal and active minority who are probably religiously motivated and this, in turn, leads to a disproportionately brutal response from the previous, populist, Prime Minister who then, rather than admit he totally screwed things up, cries Al Queda when accused of human rights abuses etc.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
I did a little reporting on this when working for the Irrawaddy Magazine (www.irrawaddy.org). I am not going to come out and say that religion plays no part in this conflict, it does. But I would say that the religion aspect is played up too much. I think that there are a lot of criminals in that area who are all too pleased to cover their activities in some cloak of religion. And I think that people in the West calling it all Islamic Violence without analyzing the economic and criminal underpinnings of the activities in that area are missing the whole point as well. It is also notable that whenever someone in the Thai government points out that there is a very common criminal element at play, they are also ridiculed for not acknowledging the religious elements.

That is not to say that I don't believe that religion does not play a part. I think it does but not as much as people say. There are plenty of Muslims in many areas of Thailand that are not rising up against the state and not running to the South to get involved in what is happening there. There is, IMO, also a very obvious criminal element to this. It is my experience from having lived there and worked as a reporter there that in a corrupt country you have to look closely at who benefits from unrest like this and who stands to gain the most if the aims of the agitators are met. My belief is that in a border area like this you are going to see power grabs by criminal gangs that would benefit greatly from relaxed border controls (note how many border patrol have been killed in the conflict) or border controls manned by local, not national, personnel. There is a huge economic upside for smugglers if they can get their cronies in control of the border so their stolen goods, drugs, illegal immigrants, etc.. can get in and out much more easily. I am 100% certain this conflict would not be as widescale if it happened in Sukothai or elsewhere in the middle of the country.

The border aspect is also an attraction for SE Asia groups like JI. Remember that one of their main operatives was arrested in Thailand. They see the benefit in having a free flow of money, goods and people from Indonesia all the way to Bangkok. That way they can expand their fundraising empire and whatever illegal businesses they are in.

Overall, I view the region as a battleground for all kinds of illicit money based on cheap drugs, arms, human smuggling and counterfeit goods. The police and Thai army are very much a player in this struggle as many of their members are directly involved. Remember the drug war of 2002 and how the cops and army used it to kill at will and consolidate their power in the trade. On the other side are local gang leaders who are in bed with religous leaders. Just as Hamas or Hezbollah win the hearts and minds of the locals by providing them in ways the government can't and propandizing against the government powers, these groups will use religion as a way to unite the people behind them and get soldiers to do dirty work that does more to consolidate the power of the leaders in the area than it does to help the local population. The fact that the locals have very real grievances against the government makes it even more complicated.

I don't see how this can end well.

KJS

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said. I'll shut up now.

Except to say that, if memory serves, the area was annexed in 1907. I would imagine that this made little difference on the ground at that time. If it wasn't the Thais, it probably would have been the British and local power alleigances in either event would have remained the dominant force in the region.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cringe everytime I see that entry from a borderline naziblog being posted together with the word Norway. Could people please stop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You may not like it, but it appears the statistics are there to support it. I apologize it happens to be your country that the reports are on. The same basic thing applies many places I am sure. I just don't see backing down and integration to be answer to the sort of things that are happening in places like Thailand. I think the Australian government has it right. Too bad the US won't ever actually come out and make a statement like that.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]
The report is mostly on Sweden and Denmark, and the slant of the blogentry is as expected comnsidering where this guy stand politically (have even linked to neo-nazi sites in his blogentries before). Only a tiny bit of his stats are on Norway, even though the [censored] writer is norwegian. He has taken a lot of numbers and butchered them into fit his opinion. The issue is so infinitly more complex than what this douche presents. Yet, I see it get posted again and again as some sort of gospel on evil Muslims in these kinds of threads. It bugs me.

I mean: "it appears the statistics are there to support it." Uhm, yeah. If you bend every number and only present the numbers that support your case, you may get a convincing looking argumnet.

The fact that muslims are involved with more crimes has just as much to do with them being part of the poorest 5% of the population. If you started comparing crime amongst immigrants and the poorest norweginas, the facts may start to mean something.

Look at this for slated reporting:

[ QUOTE ]
Criminologist: immigrants are rape champions

If one leading expert is to be believed, the sharp rise in the number of rapes in this over the last 5 years is largely attributable to a group of unemployed and alienated immigrants. 'Over the last 5-10 years there has an increasing tendency to marginalise and alienate immigrants,' says Professor Flemming Balvig, a criminologist at Copenhagen University. 'As a result, many second generation immigrants have reacted against this through various types of criminal activity, including rape.'


[/ QUOTE ]

So basicly the fact that the criminologist says "immigrants have reacted against this through various types of criminal activity, including rape" translates to "Criminologist: immigrants are rape champions"? Also notice how he in his articly boldes or colors the words muslim or islam at every opportunity for emphasis. How anyone can link to this article and not see how horrible onesided and slanted it is boggles me.

[Boris]

KJS and Registrar - Let me make sure I understand this correctly. You guys think there is some sort of Mafia organization inciting violence in order to increase their criminal profits? Please explain how this makes any sense.

Registrar - "I would imagine that you have the usual dynamic of increasing parochialism caused by increasing interference in an age of improved communications."

ummmm.... explain to me again how the Internet and cell phones contribute to increased parochialism. Who is interfering with what? How is this the "usual dynamic"?

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that muslims are involved with more crimes has just as much to do with them being part of the poorest 5% of the population. If you started comparing crime amongst immigrants and the poorest norweginas, the facts may start to mean something.

Compare crime amongst muslim immigrants and non-muslim immigrants. Then you may get something meaningfull. As it is, the numbers are pretty much useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not familiar with the situation in Thailand, but this is generally just a bad argument. You're basically saying it's ok to be a criminal if you're poor or an immigrant.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that muslims are involved with more crimes has just as much to do with them being part of the poorest 5% of the population. If you started comparing crime amongst immigrants and the poorest norweginas, the facts may start to mean something.

Compare crime amongst muslim immigrants and non-muslim immigrants. Then you may get something meaningfull. As it is, the numbers are pretty much useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not familiar with the situation in Thailand, but this is generally just a bad argument. You're basically saying it's ok to be a criminal if you're poor or an immigrant.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I'm saying the immigrants are criminal for the same reasons other people are criminals. Not because of their culture or religion. For people who has come from areas of war they may be [censored] up for different reasons though.

I'm not saying it is ok to be criminals.

I'm not really arguing about immigration and crime though. just against that appaling blogentry that keeps coming up. As I said the issue is extremly complex, and I surely don't know all the answers.

[KJS]

[ QUOTE ]
KJS and Registrar - Let me make sure I understand this correctly. You guys think there is some sort of Mafia organization inciting violence in order to increase their criminal profits? Please explain how this makes any sense.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure what is unclear to you. I think that the people who are going for the hearts and minds by exploiting some real differences re: religion, plus some real grievances against the government, plus some real issues that poor people have about their situation, are not 100% sincere. They have motives that go beyond religion and prosperity for all. They want power for themselves and power in that part of the world comes from access to the money. And the most money available is derived from criminal activites such as drugs, prostitution, smuggling of counterfeit goods, etc.. Maybe they are going to use some of this money to fuel some efforts at separatism but even the idea of separatism has elements that have as much to do with consolidating state power in the hands of their friends as it does with having an area that is based on Islamic principles.

Happy to answer any specific questions to the best of my ability.

KJS

[Boris]

KJS - I find it difficult to believe that a profit motivated criminal organization would choose to incite a civil war as a means of gaining market share. I don't find it hard to believe that an ethnically or ideologically motivated group would use profitable criminal activity to fund operations. I also don't find it hard to believe that cadre of insurgent leaders would want widespread power over their people upon a successful "independence" campaign.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
KJS - I find it difficult to believe that a profit motivated criminal organization would choose to incite a civil war as a means of gaining market share. I don't find it hard to believe that an ethnically or ideologically motivated group would use profitable criminal activity to fund operations. I also don't find it hard to believe that cadre of insurgent leaders would want widespread power over their people upon a successful "independence" campaign.

[/ QUOTE ]

Difficult to believe? This has been going on in Central America for decades. Mexico? Columbia? Hell, pick a country down there.

[Boris]

Colt - Columbia may be the one notable exception. Do you think the drug industry in Southern Thailand is on par with the Columbian cocaine industry? If so it might make sense for the drug lords to establish a more independent state.

In Mexico I think the drug runners work more hand in hand with local authorities than against them. Unless you're talking about Chiapas?

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Colt - Columbia may be the one notable exception. Do you think the drug industry in Southern Thailand is on par with the Columbian cocaine industry? If so it might make sense for the drug lords to establish a more independent state.

In Mexico I think the drug runners work more hand in hand with local authorities than against them. Unless you're talking about Chiapas?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really that familiar with the current situation in Thailand to know what part of that region is being discussed. But, yes, the "Golden Triangle" has historically been a major source of opium, although I think it's importance has declined dramatically in recent years.

I was really talking more on a historical basis in terms of Latin America than what's going on today. However, the cartels were involved in stirring up some of the election-day violence in Mexico recently. A number of other countries down there have had these "revolutions" that armed the peasants with guns bought with drug money. Off the top of my head Nicaragua, Honduras, Columbia...

[Kyle]

[ QUOTE ]
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"But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them? "

or just kill them all.

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can you give some examples of countries where this worked?

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usa and australia.

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Israel Algeria

[El Diablo]

Boris,

"I find it difficult to believe that a profit motivated criminal organization would choose to incite a civil war as a means of gaining market share."

That is exactly what has been going on in Assam (Northeast India) for the last 20+ years. The guise of separatism and revolution is a great cover to help vastly expand the reach of criminal organizations.

[Boris]

Diablo - Which group are you referring to? I googled and read articles that claimed ultra nationalist Assam liberation groups arose out of a student movement in the late '70s. These articles claimed the movement arose as a backlash to massive increase in emigration to Assam of non Assamese ethnic groups. Do you think the ULFA started out as an organized crime syndicate? Or did it start with noble(?) aspirations and then become corrupted because it needed crime to fund the cause?

[El Diablo]

Boris,

ULFA is a criminal organization that makes money off of kidnappings and extortion. Its roots are in a legitmate separatist movement, but over the years this morphed into just a pure criminal enterprise. Things got really bad when the Indian governemnt basically gave up and made a "truce" with them where they got to keep all their weapons and basically go forward unhindered with their criminal activities. Now the leaders of this group mainly operate out of Bangladesh and are supported by Bangladesh and Pakistan. So, ironically, this "Assamese Hindu separatist movement" no longer targets Muslims. This has led to atrocities like the massacre of Hindu laborers from other Indian states. They have almost no populist support now and basically are just an extortion and kidnapping racket. I'll write more detail and post some links later.

[Boris]

Diablo - Good stuff.

KJS - Why would an organized crime syndicate resort to violence in order to win the hearts and minds of the people? I think that would be pretty stupid. I also don't understand why organized crime would take on the Thai gov't head on. War takes soldiers and soldiers don't earn. Therefore war is too expensive for most organized crime operations. As noted before, Columbia may be the one exception and that is because they sell directly in to the super lucrative US market.

[mikechops]

[ QUOTE ]
Please stop comparing this to the American Revolution. It's retarded. I'm not that familiar with the Thai situation, but are these people being taxed into poverty by a government thousands of miles away. Are armed soldiers indiscriminately taking whatever they want from them? Are they pioneers that actually settled this land? If so, did Thailand just unilaterally decide to annex the region? Did they move to this place fleeing tyranny or religious oppression?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the priciple of self-determination is the same regardless of the differences. As I said earlier, I don't know [censored] about Thailand, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that the majority of muslim Thais deplore the terrorists but are somewhat sympathetic with their aims. This was the case with Northern Irish Catholics and the IRA.

[KJS]

[ QUOTE ]
KJS - Why would an organized crime syndicate resort to violence in order to win the hearts and minds of the people? I think that would be pretty stupid. I also don't understand why organized crime would take on the Thai gov't head on. War takes soldiers and soldiers don't earn. Therefore war is too expensive for most organized crime operations. As noted before, Columbia may be the one exception and that is because they sell directly in to the super lucrative US market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think Hamas and Hezbollah are stupid for sending in their bombers? I think they are morally repugnant but they have been very successful at getting people on their side with these campaigns. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. You can show that you have the populace's interests at heart by attacking their known enemies: the state, the big banks, etc.. Violence also detracts from state's credibility in general because people look to the state for security and are not finding any.

This is not war, it is a small insurgency. And it is not being put down with a lot of military might. Shooting border patrol in a market, tossing some homemade bombs off your motorbike, beheading a monk as you drive by is the stuff we are talking about. None of this is very expensive and what price there is is small compared to the amount of money you get from controlling lucrative border trade, exortion, fraud, etc.. Sure you will lose people to arrest and death at the hands of cops and army but that is the price of doing business. In places where the cops want more than their share instead of just everyone working together this kind of thing happens. And yes, there are barriers to working together based on identity issues as well.

KJS

[El Diablo]

Boris,

Some more background.

ULFA overview (http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=124265&category=India&catID= 2) "ULFA has deviated wantonly from its earlier separatist ambitions and is now an absolute terror outfit that carries out killings and extortions with impunity"

Article on latest massacre (http://pd.cpim.org/2007/0121/01212007_assam.htm)

Hindu terrorism (http://www.indiaenews.com/religion/20070127/37110.htm) Article that explains how this group transitioned from a separatist movement for Hindu Assamese primarily protesting illegal Muslim Bangladeshi immigration to a criminal/terrorist organization supported by Bangladesh and Pakistan that now ironically targets Hindus.

To answer your question to KJS, these types of groups can often operate better in a climate of civil unrest and fear, where fear of extortion, kidnapping, and murder lets them basically do whatever they want to the common people. In the past, this specific organization got a lot of populist support as well in terms of voluntary assistance, shelter, etc., which was another reason for them to keep up their violent activities. But now it has been pretty much exposed for what it really is, so those activities are just to maintain a state of fear.

Googling ULFA assam extortion massacre, etc. will get you tons more info.

[Banks2334]

KKF,
I'm planning a climbing trip next winter to the Phra Nang Peninsula. From what I understand, the trouble spots are only in the border provinces with Malaysia or has it spread farther north? Anything to be concerned about?

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"But what are you supposed to do, reward terrorists by giving up part of your country to them? "

or just kill them all.

[/ QUOTE ]

can you give some examples of countries where this worked?

[/ QUOTE ]

usa and australia.

[/ QUOTE ]

Israel Algeria

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt put israel on that list as its not nearly as stable as usa and aussie

[fish2plus2]

KJS,

What you say about there being a criminal element makes alot of sense, however one thing to note is that (as far as I understand) violence in these regions began around 2000 and has been escalating ever since, drastically since 2004. This time frame leads me to believe that religion is playing a very important role in the conflict.

"In April 2004, troops killed over 100 Muslim men in Yala province who attacked well-defended police stations with only light weapons, in what police described as "suicidal" attacks."

Regardless of whether it is Gang Leaders working with Clerics to brainwash the local population, its impossible to believe that these 100 men were gang members carrying out orders. Imho, their actions clearly symbolize their religous beliefs.

Have you done any specific research on the criminal activites in this region? Geographically, it is an important position, but as you mention, it is the Thai Authorites who seem to be the ones who control illegal activites in Thailand. Is there a specific gang that you could put your finger on that you think is capable of launching this type of offensive?

The fact that the Thai government seems incapable of putting a finger on who they are fighting also seems to symbolize to me that they are fighting a new force, not an established gang leader stirring up trouble.

It is beginning to seem more and more likely to me that the New Years Eve bombings were the work of the insurgents and not polititions.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
KJS,

What you say about there being a criminal element makes alot of sense, however one thing to note is that (as far as I understand) violence in these regions began around 2000 and has been escalating ever since, drastically since 2004. This time frame leads me to believe that religion is playing a very important role in the conflict.

Regardless of whether it is Gang Leaders working with Clerics to brainwash the local population, its impossible to believe that these 100 men were gang members carrying out orders. Imho, their actions clearly symbolize their religous beliefs.

Have you done any specific research on the criminal activites in this region? Geographically, it is an important position, but as you mention, it is the Thai Authorites who seem to be the ones who control illegal activites in Thailand. Is there a specific gang that you could put your finger on that you think is capable of launching this type of offensive?

The fact that the Thai government seems incapable of putting a finger on who they are fighting also seems to symbolize to me that they are fighting a new force, not an established gang leader stirring up trouble.

It is beginning to seem more and more likely to me that the New Years Eve bombings were the work of the insurgents and not polititions.

[/ QUOTE ]

There used to be dozens of tribal warlords running the poppy trade in the Golden Triangle, each with their own little kingdom. Over the last ten years or so, the governments have really been cracking down on the drug trade, which means the timeline for this makes a lot of sense if you figure the criminal element is getting more desperate.

They don't really have to work with the clerics or brainwash anyone. All they really have to do is encourage it activity and provide some funding and/or weapons to people who feel oppressed. For example, every poor person that has fought in a communist revolution someplace wasn't necessarily a full-blown brainwashed communist, but they saw it as a chance for change. This is exactly what the drug cartels in Central America do to stir things up. They just promise change to the poor and give them guns.

[fish2plus2]

"They don't really have to work with the clerics or brainwash anyone. All they really have to do is encourage it activity and provide some funding and/or weapons to people who feel oppressed."

You dont think 100 men charging at police with light weapons and commiting a symbolic suicide has nothing to do with brainwashing?

"For example, every poor person that has fought in a communist revolution someplace wasn't necessarily a full-blown brainwashed communist, but they saw it as a chance for change. This is exactly what the drug cartels in Central America do to stir things up. They just promise change to the poor and give them guns."

Again, these people's main greivance is the fact that they do not have an Islamic state. That is what they are angry about, not their poverty. As I understand it, these provinces are very far from the poorest in Thailand.

KJS's theory about the criminal element makes sense, however I feel that there is strong evidence that suggests a strong religious ideology in those fighting.

[Colt McCoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, these people's main greivance is the fact that they do not have an Islamic state. That is what they are angry about, not their poverty. As I understand it, these provinces are very far from the poorest in Thailand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't saying they're poor or that's why they're fighting. I was just pointing out that criminals can find people with a grievance (in this case religion), provide weapons and funding, and let them do the dirty work.

[KJS]

[ QUOTE ]

Have you done any specific research on the criminal activites in this region? Geographically, it is an important position, but as you mention, it is the Thai Authorites who seem to be the ones who control illegal activites in Thailand. Is there a specific gang that you could put your finger on that you think is capable of launching this type of offensive?

The fact that the Thai government seems incapable of putting a finger on who they are fighting also seems to symbolize to me that they are fighting a new force, not an established gang leader stirring up trouble.

It is beginning to seem more and more likely to me that the New Years Eve bombings were the work of the insurgents and not polititions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have not done any research on specific groups.

I will ask my friends who freelance there and work for human rights groups what they think. I think I have a friend doing his graduate research in Yala too. Will report back what I find out.

KJS

[ICallHimGamblor]

Obviously the Muslims there are upset about Thailand's relationship with Israel, right? (*rolling eyes*)

[rainonacongadrum]

http://www.samharris.org/appearances/colbertreport-04262006.mov

[fish2plus2]

School bus attacked, 11 year old in coma

"A 11-year-old student who was shot by militants in an ambush in Narathiwat is still in coma on Thursday, doctors said.

Six other students of Chanae school in Narathiwat who were injured in the attack were receiving medical treatment in the same hospital.

Doctors said Laila Mideng's condition is still critical as she was shot at her chin and lower jaw. She was now under close observation, they said.

The group of young students, mostly 11 years of age, was attacked on Thursday as they were returning from a sight seeing trip in Songkhla province."

[fish2plus2]

Islamic insurgents distribute leaflets claiming responsibility for Feb 18 bombings

YALA: -- Leaflets purportedly from "warriors of Patani Islamic State" were distributed in several districts of Yala and Songkhla Friday morning, claiming responsibility over the coordinated bomb attacks in the night of February 18.

The leaflets were found in Yaha, and Kabang districts of Yala and Songkhla's Sabayoi.

The leaflets called on ethic Malays in the deep South to continue the jihad or holy war against the "Siam oppressors".

The leaflets said the jihad against "Siam" was necessary as the daily prayers and holy fast.

The leaflets said "Siam people" on the Patani Islamic state would have no peace until they leave the land.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Please stop comparing this to the American Revolution. It's retarded. I'm not that familiar with the Thai situation, but are these people being taxed into poverty by a government thousands of miles away. Are armed soldiers indiscriminately taking whatever they want from them? Are they pioneers that actually settled this land? If so, did Thailand just unilaterally decide to annex the region? Did they move to this place fleeing tyranny or religious oppression?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, I'm relatively sure the Minutemen didn't kill civilians and behead teachers.

[BPA234]

Here's a link to an article from 2005. Any thoughts? Accurate?

http://www.exile.ru/2005-October-07/southern_thailand_the_long_grind.html

[fish2plus2]

"Allah's faithful bow down to fat-man statues. (And what's wrong with that?)"

Thailand worships the skinny buddha.

I think that guy hit most of the points - although from my understanding, there really werent too many communists in Thailand during the 1970's. The US government spread alot of fake intelligence to the Thai government that there was going to be a communist revolution in the north in order to get Thailand to do what it wanted, and the Thai Army just went around harrassing innocent villiagers in their spare time.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

"Gunmen armed with handguns walked unchallenged into a school library in Narathiwat province on Monday, and emptied 11 rounds into two female Buddhist teachers, killing them on the spot - and then walked back out and escaped.

Not far away, two assailants shot dead male teacher Somai Raocharoensuk as he bought cigarettes at a store, 100 metres from his school in Rangae town.

The gunmen killed the two women at Bansako School at noon on Monday.

Yupa Sengwat, 27, a specially recruited temporary teacher employed by the government and Tippaporn Tatsanopat, 42, a permanent teacher, both died at scene.

"They got off a motorcycle, walked into the school and killed the teachers in the library while others went out for lunch," a police investigator told the Reuters news agency.

Police found 11 bullet casings from two pistols near the victims, who were in their 20 and 40s. They had multiple gunshot wounds to the head and torso, he said.

Education officials immediately ordered 50 schools in the troubled Ruesoh and Sri Sakhon districts of Narathiwat to close.

"We are afraid of more attacks on teachers," education ministry official Pairach Saengthong said. "How could there be more classes after such an audacious attack?"

According to a news report, police detained one suspect for questioning but his name has not been disclosed.

Violence in the three southern border provinces of Pattani, Yala, and Narathiwat has claimed more than 2,300 since erupting in 2004."

Insane Bin Laden like stuff.