My Turn Aggression Sucks (PT)...Need Help

[Hank Scorpio]

Okay, so I just got done playing a few long sessions at FT and ran at only 2 BB per hour. Besides the fact that my aces didn't hold up against kings or queens three times AI PF and the enormous amount of beats FT gave me, I'm still not happy with my Poker Tracker Stats.

My flop AF is 3.55, which I'm very happy with. My river AF is 2.52, which may be a little low but I don't think it's terrible (unless someone disagrees?).

The biggest problem I see, though, is my turn AF, which is only 1.68. On the turn, I'm betting 14%, raising 2%, and caling around 10%. The difference between this and my flop AF is basically that I'm checking instead of calling 8% more often.

Does anyone have any idea on how to improve this? Obviously bet more is an obvious response. The problem with this, though, is that I'm a TAG who CB's a ton. The majority of the time I won't have a hand so if I'm called by an opponent and the turn doesn't help me I check. It would seem logical, then, that I should have a lower turn AF. But when I compare this to some of the very good 5/10 players' stats, their turn AF is sometimes higher than their flop AF. Another reason why my turn AF is so low is the fact that I have this image of every player at 50 NL of being a calling station. I also think a problem of mine is that when I do have good hands I often check the turn to induce a wider calling range from my opponent on the river.

Any ideas of what I'm doing wrong or advice on how to improve would be great. Thanks

[ama0330]

I would raise every turn all in. Every turn.

Dude your agg numbers are quite high as it is, dont sweat it. Also, changing your game to fit your stats is silly and backwards. You should be letting your stats flow naturally from your game. Instead of "how do I raise my turn AF", post a couple of hands and ask "what do you think of a turn bet/raise in this spot?"

My turn AF is also low, also my all around aggression factor is only 2.6, so I`m probably note the best person to give advice here.

I used to play much more aggressive on avg. but somehow play a little more passive lately, doing more pot control etc. I think you can play succesfull with <3 AF, FE in micros is less than on higher levels I guess.

Interested to see other replies

[BoozeHound]

I noticed this exact same thing in my stats. While I agree with ama0330 that you shouldn't change your play to fit stats, I believe the point is that this identifies an obvious leak in both our games (my turn AF is actually lower, with similar numbers all around). Villains pick up on this obvious lack of betting and playing back (usually by calling and betting the river) which both of us have countered in the same way by checking some good hands on the turn.

I believe the solution is to look for opportunities to second barrell. I know I get runover at times by observant opponents who see me shut down too often on the turn, but have a difficult time identifying someone who will fold before the river when I can more easily define their weakness/strength. However, I feel like they'll call river bets/raises too often once I check behind the turn if I make my move then.

[illadelph86]

go all-in to see where you stand.

[ipushufold]

I have the same dilemma. Been spending some huge amount of time thinking about it and the conclusion I come up with is that, I am a very comfortable flop player since I usually have the iniative followed by my preflop play. Then the turn gets somewhat thoughtful if I was called with my nonemade hand. I'm currently looking through all my hh on where I was checking the turn too see how well I read villain hands and where I could have taken down the pot my a second barrell. Perhaps you are in the same situation? That you like to take a river free card when you may aswell allowing villain to bluff you on river and him to get a free card when we are in fact having the best hand.

-Not second barreling enough against weak players that calls the flop with anything.

-Taking the free card instead of trying to take down the pot vs weakness

-Not betting my bottom/midpairs when checked too (this is something im working at aswell) instead of taking a cheap showdown alowing villain to see fifth street for free.

My river is high too, but at that point, almost any thinking player should know where he is in the hand so bet/raise/calling/folding gets somewhat easier there than on the turn.

That is my thoughts for now. I will continue on this for a while. Can report back to you if you want.

[Hank Scorpio]

It just seems like lately the cards have been the only factor in determining whether or not I make money. A couple of days ago I was hitting a ton of flops and won about $500 in the session. Then last night I lost around $200 because I wasn't hitting anything (no flushes, straights, and only sets in unraised pots during a 3 hour session of 12 tables at once; plus FT has something against me because my aces didn't hold up 3 times last night). I tracked a very good player at a higher limit who's AF was high so I figured if I want to be able to move up my AF also has to be very high. Maybe it's more of a reflection of the limit he's playing at, though?

[ama0330]

Honestly you are approaching this all wrong. Forget about stats seriously this is ridiculous. People win at 16/14, people win at 32/24. Stats are irrelevant and I would say that if you lost 4 buyins in a session without cards you are leaking all over the place and you are far better off posting hands rather than worrying about your stats.

[SnappyJoe]

I agree with ama0330 on this one, don't try to change your game because your pokertracker says your turn aggression is low. Start posting hands and get fixed like that.

[DrRock]

If you are going to study other players games I suggest you look at the guys at your limit that give you the most trouble and see what they are doing. The high stakes game is so much different than the low stakes games that its really comparing apples and oranges. There arent any guys playing micro that I would really want to copy per se, but maybe take certain things from individuals who you see as doing something right.

[Antinome]

I'm a fan of value betting mediocre hands on the turn when there is a good possibility of a draw. Example: flop is As6h5h, we have JsJh, we cbet, villian on button instacalls, turn comes Tc, we...? Obviously there is a good chance we are behind, but also a good chance we are facing a draw or a suspicious MP, or a floater with a gutshot. I bet here now a lot. In position, I'm looking to charge the draw and get a free showdown.

The same way we check raise turn turn occasionally to make sure people don't casually float us, I like betting mediocre hands here to widen villian calling range and make floating even less profitable.

[Check_The_Nuts]

the more often you double barrell etc. on the turn, the higher your turn aggro factor is. Mine is 2.5.....

surprisingly I raise the flop and turn about the same % of the time (5%)....

[Maple Leafs]

What would be considered "good" AF levels at each street? Is there such a thing, or is too dependent on the rest of your game?

[VPIP100]

Double barrel a bit more untill it feels natural, same thing with c-betting /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AliasMrJones]

My flop/turn/river numbers are 4.68/2.96/1.53. Don't know if that's good or bad. Also, and I'm not sure about this, you may have to look at bet % along with aggro numbers to get the whole picture.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly you are approaching this all wrong. Forget about stats seriously this is ridiculous. People win at 16/14, people win at 32/24. Stats are irrelevant and I would say that if you lost 4 buyins in a session without cards you are leaking all over the place and you are far better off posting hands rather than worrying about your stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Stats are mostly irrelevant until you have a HUGE sample size.

Comparing stats of yours to 5/10 players is just ludicrous - they are playing MUCH different villains than you are for starters.

There is NO SUCH THING as "perfect" stats and moulding your game around stats is going about it ass backwards, improve the game the stats will take care of themselves(particularly the PTBB/100 one)

post hands where you think you weren't agressive enough on the turn or hands where you are a bit lost on the turn - you'll get bundles more value out of that than asking for "stat help"

[grizadams]

I thought at the micros you didn't want to double barrel as much...by double barreling I mean make another bet on the turn after a c-bet.

Griz

[Check_The_Nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought at the micros you didn't want to double barrel as much...by double barreling I mean make another bet on the turn after a c-bet.

Griz

[/ QUOTE ]

it depends what level and whatnot. At 50NL its definitely possible to double barrell somewhat frequently and make a profit. I'm not sure why my turn AF is 2.5, but I'm guessing I probably bet a lot thinner than most ppl in most turn spots, bluff slightly more, and occasionally bet my draws on two streets (tho this is rare to be honest)...

[grizadams]

[ QUOTE ]
I would raise every turn all in. Every turn.


If your serious... please elaborate.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise every turn all in. Every turn.


If your serious... please elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha I was kidding dude. Tho I feel it would be interesting to see what would happen if we did this...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise every turn all in. Every turn.


If your serious... please elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha I was kidding dude. Tho I feel it would be interesting to see what would happen if we did this...

[/ QUOTE ]

You become H@££INGGOL /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[weknowhowtolive]

Errr...I'm confused. Why would you want to change your game based solely off PT stats? How big is this sample size?

Its always good to review your game but I'd say its better to do it based off areas you think are weak, THEN look at PT, plus all the hand histories for that area.

Stats are addictive, and you can throw your game by trying to get one stat up by playing a different game than your normal A game.

[Dilznoofus]

My aggression factors by street are 2.43, 1.74, and 1.3, with a total AF of 1.98, and I feel like I'm spewing more than I should already firing 2nd barrels and bluffing call stations. Of all the TAGs I sit with I hardly ever see any of them raise without the nuts or close to it, nor do they ever show down bluffs. I suspect that a lot of these TAGs have higher AFs than me not because they bet/raise/bluff more but because they fold more.

I honestly don't know how you all get such relatively high aggression numbers playing small stakes unless you're in really rocky games or are never calling bets. I look for games filled with loose passive stations and aggro retards. When I'm in these games I'm basically only value betting the call stations and calling down the maniac bluffers. I would not expect a very high level of aggression to be profitable, because I'll either be frequently bluffing the unbluffable or frequently preventing the maniacs from bluffing me when I have a hand to take their money with.

When several fish leave to be replaced by TAGs I will usually leave unless there is still one big fish or two that make the table worth playing. But in this environment my AF goes up because I'm adapting to the other TAGs who I end up having to tangle with more frequently.

[Archon_Wing]

I once had a high turn aggression when I overplayed top pair. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Michael Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
improve the game the stats will take care of themselves(particularly the PTBB/100 one)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is some really good advice! Stats will vary quite a bit from session to session. As they're pretty much tied up with table dynamics at the time it's not worth putting much credence to them.