25NL FR: Make hand on turn, but river bet too much?

[hhughes]

It's my first post here at uNL...so be gentle /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Have played ~50 hands at this table....PT stats on Villian are 30/12/1.6

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+1 ($33.40)
MP1 ($12.95)
MP2 ($4.75)
Hero ($24.05)
CO ($12.65)
Button ($24.70)
SB ($12.30)
BB ($25)
UTG ($35.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

I know...shouldnt limp along...but again Im new to NL

Flop: ($1.25) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $0.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50.

Flop hits me goot...figured I'd bump it up and see who comes along...

Turn: ($5.25) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.5</font>, UTG+1 calls $3.50.

I put Villain on a flush as well, though a set is possible..

River: ($12.25) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $19.25

This is where I think a smaller bet might have been more appropriate...to maybe get a little more from Villain...even thought about checking and seeing what he does, but figured I should bet to try to build the pot some.

Any thoughts are more than welcome.

[Nick C]

The preflop limp is fine in my opinion.

I wouldn't raise the flop. Although UTG+1's small flop bet suggests weakness, there is a good chance he has a better ace (your kicker is weak, after all), and while someone with 8x may end up outdrawing both of you (and there's some chance a hand like 8x or QQ is in fact what UTG+1 has), you weren't going to play for a big pot unimproved anyway. (And there aren't really any major draws to worry about -- your hand has that covered.)

The turn bet is okay. I might try betting a little more. The range you're giving UTG+1 is too narrow, though (and if he really had a flush or a set, you wouldn't have had so much trouble getting your stack in -- well, unless you both tried to slowplay each other).

I think the river bet is all right. I don't know what Villain had. Some crappy ace with a flush card kicker, maybe, or possibly 8x with a flush kicker, or maybe ThTc.

[Gelford]

Flop looks ok, turn I'd bet bigger ... and river I'd also bet big afterwards

Gotta have that value ... villian has shown that he is interested in playing along ... pot it all the way, that is my philosophy.

[marvin_1935]

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I wouldn't raise the flop. Although UTG+1's small flop bet suggests weakness, there is a good chance he has a better ace (your kicker is weak, after all

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we have excellent equity vs better aces here.

i would raise more on the flop and bet harder on the river. i want to get paid off by a lower flush and you arent going to get paid off by much else so pot it up!

[Nick C]

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I wouldn't raise the flop. Although UTG+1's small flop bet suggests weakness, there is a good chance he has a better ace (your kicker is weak, after all

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we have excellent equity vs better aces here.

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I suppose it depends on how you define "excellent." We're a slight dog. (Or that's close to what we are, in any case -- I didn't Stove it. The worse his kicker is, the more potential there is for both of our kickers to get counterfeited, I know.)

I will admit that it's much easier for us to improve than for A7 to improve, but there is the question of how much money A7 is going to be willing to invest in the end, whether we build the pot on the flop or not.

[hhughes]

I tried to go back and see what Villian had, but he mucked at the river, so its not in PT, and I dont remember if PAHUD showed what he had during play.

Appreciate the comments...especially the probable narrow range I had Villain on.

Looking for monsters under the bed... /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[illadelph86]

you played this very well except for the limp. great flop for your hand, but raise alittle more on the flop. like like you betting out the turn, and river. villian A10?

[ipushufold]

Gonna try my best to put my thoughts out there clearly.

I limp this behind preflop too. I'd like to know what kind of opponents that are in the CO and Button too before finally making a decision since I want to know whether or not I will be giving the chance to act last post flop if I just limp behind. With the right/wrong opponents, I may isolate/fold here. Anyway...

This is just an excellent flop. The one im hoping for. TP and FD. And since villain is leading out, we can safely put him on something like an weak ace or a flush draw. A player with 12% PFR opens preflop with AJ+ from my experience. I'd say, FD and A9- A9s-. We have a really great equity vs those ranges and position. If we get this heads up we have a pretty straightforward hand to play.

Bumping it up here will also makes us look stronger than we are (as in us having him outkicked). I like the flop line alot. I'd do it exactly the same.

If he was on a flush draw, he will call us no matter what here on the turn. For a weak ace I don't know. One thing exploitable about me is that i'd like to bet a bit more if the flush didnt hit and pray he folds his weaker/better ace and lets ut take down the pot right now. The turn amount seems nice. Hopefully he will check raise us /images/graemlins/smile.gif

River: Good.

Nicely played. I don't want to meet you at my tables.

[AceLuby]

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River: Good

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Not really, I bet 1/4-1/3rd pot here to try to get a call. If villain called the river the play would be good. Even if we only get $1 out of him it's better than him folding.

[illadelph86]

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River: Good

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Not really, I bet 1/4-1/3rd pot here to try to get a call. If villain called the river the play would be good. Even if we only get $1 out of him it's better than him folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

what? so basically everytime we build a pot and hit our hand its good to bet $1 into a $15 dollar pot for value?? this makes no sense ace? you can't assume he's not going to call that $7 river bet, with a number of worse hands. what in this line makes you think he wouldn't be inclined to call the semi-value river bet? your goal is to get the person to make a wrong AND tough decision.

[AceLuby]

What I'm saying is that we need to bet whatever we get paid off on. $1 &gt; $0. Obviously I'm not advocating betting that into a $15 pot, but a $3-$4 bet will get called by worse hands far more often than a $7 bet IMO.

[mickii]

i like the 7$ value bet, i put the villan not on an ace but a busted draw like 2-4. it was a limped pot so the range is endless. could even have been a weak 3-8 two pair.

[AceLuby]

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i like the 7$ value bet, i put the villan not on an ace but a busted draw like 2-4. it was a limped pot so the range is endless. could even have been a weak 3-8 two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I've been doing (with pretty good success) is putting 1/4-1/3 pot bets on the river for value. Then when I'm betting the draw and miss on the end and throw out a small bet on the river if he has a better draw, but still missed, he can fold to the 'value bet'. But yeah $7 isn't 'bad' per se, but I would bet a little less to try to get a crying call.

[WhiteWolf]

Re. the river: You have the nuts - if you aren't going to make big river bets with this hand, which hands will you make big bets with? If he did have a flush or set, he's probably calling here (and would probably even call a bigger river bet). As for betting smaller, sure you'll get looked up more often, but you're also making less money. A 1/4 PSB needs to be called more than twice as often as your $7 bet here in order for the smaller bet to be a better option.

[Gustav]

I bet higher on every street, especially turn.

[marvin_1935]

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River: Good

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Not really, I bet 1/4-1/3rd pot here to try to get a call. If villain called the river the play would be good. Even if we only get $1 out of him it's better than him folding.

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i want to get paid off by a lower flush and you arent going to get paid off by much else so pot it up!

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[Leviathan101]

looks good, except I would enter with a raise. (I practically enter every pot with a raise...)
Flop looks good, turn I bet a little more, and I bet 1/2 pot on river. Your hand is disguised, as it is beyond many playesr to consider raising a flush draw at this limit. You will get many calls on the river from an ace, and you will get RAISED by a lower flush, and sometimes a set or two pair.

Betting smaller on the river isn't horrible because it looks weaker. It gets more calls from weaker hands and gets raised from strong hands. I'm pretty certain if we were villian with 2nd nut flush, the forum would advocate a raise over a 1/2 pot bet on this river. Most villians would also raise the second nuts here. They have no reason to believe you have the flush. Your line looks like AQ, AK.