Limping behind short stacks

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Here's a thought I just had while playing. If a big fish limps (or really just a weakish limper) I will sometimes raise a big range behind instead of overlimping, stuff like Ax, KJ-KT, hands like 22, random suited connectors, etc.

If that limper is shortstacked, should this affect your raising range? What type of hands would it remove from your range?

[Gelford]

The way I understand it, is that you should be ahead of his range ... so there are no special hands it removes as such, it all comes down to this range.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Gelford,

think about how the different hands play out postflop. A hand like 77-88 or AK has much more value here since a typical hand will often play out like this:

I raise kjo, he calls. flop is 2-5-9. We have effective stacks of like 3 times the pot (so at $25nl, $2 pot, $6 behind). Hands like 88 or AK are much better here if we need to continue on against a cr or if he calls since we will often be ahead or whatever (maybe hands like qjo would be better since ax is so often in his range which would give me 6 clean outs). Additionally with hands like these we can call a check-raise which allows us to c-bet more. However if we get cr'd with A3 or 67 or something we will probably have to call.

I think what I'm getting at is that people have a tendency to make loose calls against shorties, so you should avoid putting yourself in situations where this will happen more often. Preflop, limping hands I would raise against someone with more money gives me much better odds as compared to raising (30-1 instead of like 6/7-1, very roughly) and lets me avoid these (a little spewy) loose calls against shorties.

[Gelford]

You know what, I was in my own thoughts when replying .. having discuss something similar with another 2+2 on Aim earlier today.

Please ignore my reply, as I have no idea and play in a way, that never puts me in these situations.


I practically never limp, shortstacks do not carry much in the way of implied odds, so my goal is simply to isolate him with a raise ... and if checked to on flop, I am putting him all in or firing big or similar


If he really is a fish, then you are ahead of his range and he really can't stand such heat.


Overlimping is something I only rarely do and for me to consider it, there has to be several limpers. But I practically never do it.

[corsakh]

You should raise hands like 22 and random suited connectors in position regardless if its a fish or not. The only thing that matters considering a raise is the effective stack size. It should be at least 15-20 times the raise to be profitable. If you expect more than one callers, you can drop this requirement down a bit, to somewhat 10-12 times.

If stacks are less than that, just limp.

KJ is a differnt type of hand and you should never call with it, unless you are playing stricktly for straight or two pair value, other than completion in SB. Raise or fold, stack sizes do not really matter in this case.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

corsakh,

what's wrong with limping kj behind a shorty?

[corsakh]

Same as limping with AK, only with KJ you are in much worse shape and loosing iniative.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

i'm saying the value of initiative and the worse shape is why you should limp it against a shortstack. C-betting the flop if we miss and don't take it down is like lighting on fire, and we will get looked up with ace high/bottom pair/ridiculous draws often. with AK we are probably ahead more so it's ok, but with KJ we are ahead less often. so limping lets us draw for 1 bb against a shorty and we can only bet when we actually hit and get our money in much better overall.

[corsakh]

Is this "lets see the flop cheaply and bet if we hit" kind of logic?

[AKQJ10]

In general I think you want to limp a lot less against a short stack. Decent short stacks may fold to a raise, but they probably weren't limping first in anyway. Terrible short stacks will put all the money in anyway. You want to take a hand that plays well preflop -- 88+, AQ+ against a typical limping range -- and raise it so that much of the money is going in immediately. Then on the flop bet damn near anything for the rest of the effective stack.

Of course it complicates things immensely if you have deeper stacks behind you. Now you may be laying implied odds with something like 88 on a J74 flop. Heads up with the short stack, though, you should be delighted to get most of the money in preflop, and basically dare him to hit the flop. You'll pay off your remaining stub of a stack when his KT gets lucky against your JJ or 99 or whatever, but so what? Far more often he'll miss entirely and you'll take down the money from the preflop raise. Occasionally you'll both flop a hand you like and [short] stacks will go in; more often yours will be the better hand.

Don't limp much. Just raise all good hands for value.

[Triggerle]

Lets say the shortstack is passive postflop but calls down with any piece of the board. With 22 you won't be able to take it away from him on the flop unless he completely missed. Finding out if he completely missed will eat up most of your profits from doing so and you are basically playing for set value with low implied odds.

For 88+ a raise is for value.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this "lets see the flop cheaply and bet if we hit" kind of logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

kind of. I think I was really overestimating how often the problem I was thinking of actually occurs, and pretty much just inventing a problem where one doesn't exist. I'll probably try messing around with this in the next week or so though just to see what happens.