For atheists....how?

[Toe-Knee]

Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[SitNHit]

Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It wouldn't make sense? What does that mean? Like, if I was the guy designing reality? Or 'if we polled 100 Americans?'

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really know what to tell you. This is probably pretty common, although personally, I don't think I've ever felt this sort of thing. I don't fear non-existence after my death, since I already have lots and lots of experience with non-existence, from before I was born. It wasn't that bad at all, I could do another eternity standing on my head.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes when contemplating my own death, I get a strange feeling of vertigo. The human brain is not well built to consider its own nonexistence.

But consider the fact that your consciousness has been nonexistent at other times - before you were born, and while you're in deep sleep - and that there has been nothing to be feared about these states.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why "petty"? Human life is all the more precious for being short. Things are not meaningless just because they don't last forever. Think about the impact that, say, the Founding Fathers have had on the lives of US citizens over the years. Is that petty? You might not be able to achieve something of that magnitude in your life, but reflecting on achievements like that might disabuse you of the idea that nothing is important.

[bunny]

Life has value, irrespective of how long it lasts. You can give your life meaning even if you think it is only short lived. Perhaps the universe "doesnt care" if you live or die and wont remember you after you've gone, but why should you make your decisions based on universal significance? You can live your life based on its significance to you.

[reb]

Either there is some kind of continued existence with self-awarness where you may or may not lose your identity, which I take it you could live with OR there is absolute nothingness without any self-awarness so you cannot care how [censored] that might be, or feel afraid. As I see it, neither option feels too bad.

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I would consider Buddhism atheistic, and reincarnation is a tenet of several branches, notably Tibetan. Personally, I think it's kind of silly. I do practise Zen, and I increasingly feel connected to the world in a permanent and timeless way, though this is less an objective belief than a feeling...kind of a way of making yourself happier.

The other good news is, I would bet a great deal of $ that you are young. Contemplation of death abates as you get older...you think about it less, and it seems less troubling.

If it's really bugging you, I recommend pot.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a different, but similar, problem. I had full-blown panic attacks about hell, and they are largely responsible for triggering the worst period of my life. I still have trouble struggling with hell, even though I don't believe in it any more.

What can you do? Well, there are lots of things. First, arahant mentioned Zen and he wasn't far off the mark. You might even get something out of some of the Dalai Lama's works. They can get a bit sentimental, and you may have some distaste for that, but regardless of whether they're true in a universal sense they have proved highly effective in the treatment of depression and anxiety. A number of Zen-based techniques are blowing people away in studies. And relaxation/meditation can be a more powerful tool than you may be able to believe right now.

Simpler techniques can also help. Personally, I haven't avoided thoughts about the subject and wouldn't recommend it. Thinking deeply has helped me a lot. But I fell into some traps early on, that you can avoid with some simple guidelines. The main thing is that if the thoughts are starting to provoke anxiety, find a distraction or think about something else. Don't think things like "this is actually going to happen, in a few decades at most I'm going to be pulled into this vortex..." Do think thoughts like "why am I so afraid, and what am I so afraid of?," "Is there any rational reason to be afraid of death?," and "Is 'nothingness' worth being afraid of? Isn't viewing it as going peacefully to sleep just as valid as viewing it as destruction of my being?" You can even try directly telling yourself things like "death is nothing to be afraid of," but I think more introspective techniques are much more effective among those with enough imagination to accomplish them (you sound like you're more than there).

Also, work on the environment you're in. Even if your fears aren't being caused by other emotional issues, they are definitely a significant influence. Make sure you have solid friends, are somewhat successful in life, spend plenty of time doing what you love, and spend a sufficient amount of time relaxing in a comfortable, stable environment. Be sure to find people to talk to about it - while that may sound pointless, you might be surprised how much regular support helps in the long term (and sometimes the short term as well).

[Kimbell175113]

-Read the last two posts again, and don't forget them.
-Think, think as deeply as you can about all the different possibilities and all the different possible ways of framing them in your mind. Eventually you'll find something palatable, and it'll get better the more you learn.
-Read this forum, read books about Zen, philosophy, psychology, evolution, anything.
-Ask questions.
-Acquire and watch The Fountain when it comes out on DVD.

[MuresanForMVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that not one of the biggest reasons why people "create" a God,"create" an afterlife? Makes sense to me... I'm 21 so I'm young and haven't really begun to truly think about such things, but does the fact that you won't hear,think, or feel anything make it that much easier? It hurts my head to think about it, but the fact is I'm here and I'm conscious, so [censored] it, what's the point of wasting my time thinking about it?

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

What in the hell does this mean? Are you the same guy that doesn't understand why "this being your only life" would induce someone to try to live it for as long as they can, instead of killing themselves?

And, um, it makes perfect sense for something that isn't alive to not be alive.

To the OP:

I think my biggest "regret" is that I'd like to live more in the universe that I can imagine than the one that presently exists. I think we'll get there at some point, but not before I'm gone. That makes me very very sad sometimes, but I get over it and do what I can to get us there.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul .

Post Extras


[/ QUOTE ]

You don’t need a God for life after death. Life after death is a free roll. When you die, either you don’t know your dead, in which case it’s no different than being knocked out, or, you find your self in some other existence, in which case . . . well, you’ll have to deal with whatever problems crop up there.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Is that not one of the biggest reasons why people "create" a God,"create" an afterlife?

[/ QUOTE ]

I very much think so. It is that very fear that support the denial of reality by inventing such concepts of god and soul. God acts as a protector and soul ensure preservation, but both are a denial of reality as it simply is.

[kurto]

Have you ever gone to sleep and not remembered a dream? (that's how i am most nights.) Is that really terrifying?

If so... that's how I picture non-existence. Nothing really terrifying since you've not there to experience anything bad.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah the old, "I can't imagine not living forever, therefore I must live forever" argument. I think most of the world's religions have this reasoning to thank for their existence.

To the OP: knowledge of our own mortality can immobilize with fear or it can motivate you to make the most of the small amount of time we have. Once you're dead you will not know you are dead so it is not worth worrying about it. And as someone else mentioned, it is a fear that (ironically) decreases the older you get.

[MaxWeiss]

1. What makes you happy and comfortable and is not terrifying has no relevance on whether it's true.

2. Ceasing to exist causes many atheists, myself included, to value life even more and also try to make a lasting positive impact on the world. What will you leave behind???

BTW, I was also terrified reading some mini bios of Helen Keller for an English class. Not seeing or hearing--I just can't imagine it. Damn.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How does it not make sense?? Your body stops working the way it did before, your heart doesn't pump, your brain doesn't shoot electric impulses around any more. It's simply another state of being. The fact that you aren't "you" any more doesn't mean that it's some magical thing. How the hell does it "not make sense"??? Because you don't want it to!??

Come on, honestly!

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Troll, moron, kiddie, or some combination?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im not an Athiest, but it wouldnt make sense to just die and cease to exist anymore, does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Troll, moron, kiddie, or some combination?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kiddie. And this coming from a 23 year old and not meant to be insulting.

[Metric]

Holding on to what you want to believe is fine -- there's nothing wrong with making a choice in that regard. But you really shouldn't do it out of fear.

Your consciousness will remain every bit a part of reality, even in the most atheistic sense. The distinction between future, past, and present is somewhat misunderstood -- they're all a part of the same state of the universe. You should not think of death as "an event which causes you not to be" -- you should think of death (along with conception) more as a boundary to the little region of spacetime defining your existence. That corner of spacetime will always be yours; you do exist -- you have been granted reality along with the rest of the universe -- and nothing can ever change that.

[evil twin]

[ QUOTE ]
you should think of death (along with conception) more as a boundary to the little region of spacetime defining your existence. That corner of spacetime will always be yours; you do exist -- you have been granted reality along with the rest of the universe -- and nothing can ever change that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome.

[Dane S]

My thinking has led me to believe that death isn't really possible because an end to a subjective perception isn't possible because there is no reference point outside of this subjective perception that can define it as ended. So I guess that means the last millisecond of life will last an eternity... or perhaps all this is just the last millisecond of some earlier life. Regardless my reasoning won't allow existence to end (though I can certainly see how it might change around a hell of a lot). I reached this conclusion a few years ago then later encountered it in Borges, Buddhism, and Schopenhauer.

[JDalla]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking has led me to believe that death isn't really possible because an end to a subjective perception isn't possible because there is no reference point outside of this subjective perception that can define it as ended. So I guess that means the last millisecond of life will last an eternity... or perhaps all this is just the last millisecond of some earlier life. Regardless my reasoning won't allow existence to end (though I can certainly see how it might change around a hell of a lot). I reached this conclusion a few years ago then later encountered it in Borges, Buddhism, and Schopenhauer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument kind of reminds of me that paradox (forget the guy's name) of getting from point A to B. You start at A, but before you can get to B you must go halfway to B. And before you get there, you must go half way to half way... etc. Since C>0 /2/2/2/2/2/2/2.... >0, you "shouldn't" ever be able to get anywhere.

you could run the same paradox for life... if I'm going to live 10 more year, first I must live 5, but first 2.5, but fist 1.25.... but fist .00001 etc.

I know its not exactly what you were getting at, I think my point is these things are fun to think about, but to deny that we can't actually die or go anywhere seems a little... silly?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thinking has led me to believe that death isn't really possible because an end to a subjective perception isn't possible because there is no reference point outside of this subjective perception that can define it as ended. So I guess that means the last millisecond of life will last an eternity... or perhaps all this is just the last millisecond of some earlier life. Regardless my reasoning won't allow existence to end (though I can certainly see how it might change around a hell of a lot). I reached this conclusion a few years ago then later encountered it in Borges, Buddhism, and Schopenhauer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument kind of reminds of me that paradox (forget the guy's name) of getting from point A to B. You start at A, but before you can get to B you must go halfway to B. And before you get there, you must go half way to half way... etc. Since C>0 /2/2/2/2/2/2/2.... >0, you "shouldn't" ever be able to get anywhere.

you could run the same paradox for life... if I'm going to live 10 more year, first I must live 5, but first 2.5, but fist 1.25.... but fist .00001 etc.

I know its not exactly what you were getting at, I think my point is these things are fun to think about, but to deny that we can't actually die or go anywhere seems a little... silly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zeno.

[evolvedForm]

I've come to a similar conclusion (though not expressed as clearly) and I don't think Zeno's paradox is analogous. Zeno's paradox takes place in the realm of physical, obersvable motion, while the death paradox, if you will, occurs as a result of a lack of subjective reference. Saying one doesn't 'die' is incorrect. One should say rather that one doesn't experience death.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking has led me to believe that death isn't really possible because an end to a subjective perception isn't possible because there is no reference point outside of this subjective perception that can define it as ended. So I guess that means the last millisecond of life will last an eternity... or perhaps all this is just the last millisecond of some earlier life. Regardless my reasoning won't allow existence to end (though I can certainly see how it might change around a hell of a lot). I reached this conclusion a few years ago then later encountered it in Borges, Buddhism, and Schopenhauer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? You may recall all those people that you have seen that are now dead? Your reference point surely defines them as dead. There is nothing mystical about your own experiences ceasing, they just do. It's similar to if you are knocked unconscious, but permanently. I'm guessing you have slept before.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thinking has led me to believe that death isn't really possible because an end to a subjective perception isn't possible because there is no reference point outside of this subjective perception that can define it as ended. So I guess that means the last millisecond of life will last an eternity... or perhaps all this is just the last millisecond of some earlier life. Regardless my reasoning won't allow existence to end (though I can certainly see how it might change around a hell of a lot). I reached this conclusion a few years ago then later encountered it in Borges, Buddhism, and Schopenhauer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument kind of reminds of me that paradox (forget the guy's name) of getting from point A to B. You start at A, but before you can get to B you must go halfway to B. And before you get there, you must go half way to half way... etc. Since C>0 /2/2/2/2/2/2/2.... >0, you "shouldn't" ever be able to get anywhere.

you could run the same paradox for life... if I'm going to live 10 more year, first I must live 5, but first 2.5, but fist 1.25.... but fist .00001 etc.

I know its not exactly what you were getting at, I think my point is these things are fun to think about, but to deny that we can't actually die or go anywhere seems a little... silly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zeno.

[/ QUOTE ]

Btw, this reminds me of the first time I ever learned about Zeno's paradox. We were in math class in probably 9th or 10th grade, and I was far less well-read than I am now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif So, I had never heard of Zeno before, or anything about this paradox. So, I figure it out on my own, specifically in the context of "a bullet can never actually hit me," and explain my great insight to my math teacher. He just laughs at me and tells me to go look into a guy named Zeno.

Turns out I was only about 2500 years behind humanity in 9th grade. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[TimWillTell]

When I die, I cease to exist, just like the hurricane rages over the land becomes weaker and finally is gone.

And exactly in the same way as the hurricane is not afraid to lay down and die, I also know no fear for dieing.

The only fear that I could have, is that when I die, I will not have raged enough.
That's way, except for murder, I have committed every sin in the book.
And if murder was to come on my path of life, I will not hesitate to pull my knife; for in rage I have lived and in rage I will die, swearing and cursing, going going gone...!

[vhawk01]

Lot of poets on this thread! Where is FM when we need him?

[Dane S]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thinking has led me to believe that death isn't really possible because an end to a subjective perception isn't possible because there is no reference point outside of this subjective perception that can define it as ended. So I guess that means the last millisecond of life will last an eternity... or perhaps all this is just the last millisecond of some earlier life. Regardless my reasoning won't allow existence to end (though I can certainly see how it might change around a hell of a lot). I reached this conclusion a few years ago then later encountered it in Borges, Buddhism, and Schopenhauer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? You may recall all those people that you have seen that are now dead? Your reference point surely defines them as dead. There is nothing mystical about your own experiences ceasing, they just do. It's similar to if you are knocked unconscious, but permanently. I'm guessing you have slept before.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't seem to understand what the word "subjective" means. Me watching someone die doesn't mean that they've experienced death and it doesn't mean that I will either.

Dreams to me seem like evidence for an afterlife of some kind as they reveal the possibility of a vast subjective universe that is independent of collective waking reality (at least, consciously independent, usually).

[Dane S]

[ QUOTE ]

When I die, I cease to exist, just like the hurricane rages over the land becomes weaker and finally is gone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, but what's it like from the hurricane's pov?

[Dane S]

To me Zeno's paradox just shows that math is flawed as a model of reality... I don't see any relation to the issue of dying.

[Piers]

[ QUOTE ]
. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just accept it like any other unpalatable truth, or don’t if you can.

Unfortunately some of us have a severely compromised ability to delude ourselves. Just hope you’re not similarly flawed.

[Saganist]

Everything dies! Animals, bugs, microbes, humans, plants, etc.
Anything that's so universal as death can't be bad. It's nature's way of continuing the cycle of life.
Your problem probably has something to do with being taught that humans are special animals. I don't think so. We're only the animals that WE think are at the top of the food chain.
Life is nothing more than a brief existence of "conciousness" between two eternities.
When you die you'll probably just go back to where you were before you were born.
Worrying about it is like trying to shovel steam.
If its REALLY bothering you, go latch on to some religion to make you feel more comfortable. It doesn't matter which one. They're all equally true.

'nuf sed

[SitNHit]

Most will realize at some point in there life it doesnt matter what you want there to be.

That has no determination to where you will go after you die.

What you want to be true doesnt matter either. Cause if what you want to be true isnt, then all the wanting means nothing.

So considering a change in beliefs just cause your afraid of your current ones won't matter.

You'll find out when you die.

But as an insurance policy you might want to pray to this made up person called Jesus Christ once in a while, may help ya if there is this made up place called heaven.

[m_the0ry]

Two things humans will never understand:

-Nullity
-Infinity

This set is extensible in a few ways and is analogous to the pairs of nothingness:everything, nonexistance:existance, etc etc.

The reason why there's no answer to "what happens to me if I die and death means I simply cease to exist," is because conjectures about the answer are completely meaningless because it is a case of nullity and nothingness.

Asking what happens to you when you die (assuming you believe the fullest explaination is that you cease to exist) is analogous to asking you to sum up your life in 1 minute if you are immortal and will never die. It's a question that has no answer by definition.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Most will realize at some point in there life it doesnt matter what you want there to be.

That has no determination to where you will go after you die.

What you want to be true doesnt matter either. Cause if what you want to be true isnt, then all the wanting means nothing.

So considering a change in beliefs just cause your afraid of your current ones won't matter.

You'll find out when you die.

But as an insurance policy you might want to pray to this made up person called Jesus Christ once in a while, may help ya if there is this made up place called heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]


And all this after I tried to explain to you the absurdity of Pascal's Wager. Some people never learn.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most will realize at some point in there life it doesnt matter what you want there to be.

That has no determination to where you will go after you die.

What you want to be true doesnt matter either. Cause if what you want to be true isnt, then all the wanting means nothing.

So considering a change in beliefs just cause your afraid of your current ones won't matter.

You'll find out when you die.

But as an insurance policy you might want to pray to this made up person called Jesus Christ once in a while, may help ya if there is this made up place called heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]


And all this after I tried to explain to you the absurdity of Pascal's Wager. Some people never learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I think just for him to come up with that was pretty impressive. Now it is absurd in the way that you can fake a belief in something you don't really think exists. It doesnt work like that.

I don't think you should believe in God if you don't, I do think you may want to look into the possiblity of it and maybe do the steps that others have done that gave them there strong belief. It says in the bible if ye pray and ask if I am real with a pure heart, he will reveal that answer to you with an undenyable feeling. If you refuse to even try, thats your own choice. And you either made a good one or a very bad one. Im sure you will find out before me


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most will realize at some point in there life it doesnt matter what you want there to be.

That has no determination to where you will go after you die.

What you want to be true doesnt matter either. Cause if what you want to be true isnt, then all the wanting means nothing.

So considering a change in beliefs just cause your afraid of your current ones won't matter.

You'll find out when you die.

But as an insurance policy you might want to pray to this made up person called Jesus Christ once in a while, may help ya if there is this made up place called heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]


And all this after I tried to explain to you the absurdity of Pascal's Wager. Some people never learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I think just for him to come up with that was pretty impressive. Now it is absurd in the way that you can fake a belief in something you don't really think exists. It doesnt work like that.

I don't think you should believe in God if you don't, I do think you may want to look into the possiblity of it and maybe do the steps that others have done that gave them there strong belief. It says in the bible if ye pray and ask if I am real with a pure heart, he will reveal that answer to you with an undenyable feeling. If you refuse to even try, thats your own choice. And you either made a good one or a very bad one. Im sure you will find out before me


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that if you believe in God, you will go to hell. So you might want to stop believing, as an insurance policy, ya know?

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I think just for him to come up with that was pretty impressive. Now it is absurd in the way that you can fake a belief in something you don't really think exists. It doesnt work like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
He wasnt suggesting you could trick God. He was suggesting that by following religious customs without believing in God, you would come to believe for real.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you should believe in God if you don't, I do think you may want to look into the possiblity of it and maybe do the steps that others have done that gave them there strong belief. It says in the bible if ye pray and ask if I am real with a pure heart, he will reveal that answer to you with an undenyable feeling. If you refuse to even try, thats your own choice. And you either made a good one or a very bad one. Im sure you will find out before me

[/ QUOTE ]
A common theme through your posts seems to be that we atheists havent "given it a go". Many of us have made a genuine effort to believe in God (if it is indeed possible to "try" to believe) and found that the hypothesis just doesnt fit the facts. You're not discussing religion with people who refuse to acknowledge God as a possibility, you're discussing it with people who think his existence is very unlikely.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most will realize at some point in there life it doesnt matter what you want there to be.

That has no determination to where you will go after you die.

What you want to be true doesnt matter either. Cause if what you want to be true isnt, then all the wanting means nothing.

So considering a change in beliefs just cause your afraid of your current ones won't matter.

You'll find out when you die.

But as an insurance policy you might want to pray to this made up person called Jesus Christ once in a while, may help ya if there is this made up place called heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]


And all this after I tried to explain to you the absurdity of Pascal's Wager. Some people never learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I think just for him to come up with that was pretty impressive. Now it is absurd in the way that you can fake a belief in something you don't really think exists. It doesnt work like that.

I don't think you should believe in God if you don't, I do think you may want to look into the possiblity of it and maybe do the steps that others have done that gave them there strong belief. It says in the bible if ye pray and ask if I am real with a pure heart, he will reveal that answer to you with an undenyable feeling. If you refuse to even try, thats your own choice. And you either made a good one or a very bad one. Im sure you will find out before me


/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether you can fake it or not is NOT why Pascal's Wager is absurd. Think harder.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]

Whether you can fake it or not is NOT why Pascal's Wager is absurd. Think harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only read it, didnt think about it.

You might think its absurd cause it says that God rewards belief or that christianity is the only religion that says you will be judged, which is not true or that it says that you can choose belief or the costs that believing would bring or change in lifestyle rather.

I guess your Athestistic view is that whether or not I believe, if there is then he should judge you are your life and not just cause of belief(which I agree), if there isnt then you didnt lose anything in the first place. But I also think not exploring the possiblity is a decision you make to.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Whether you can fake it or not is NOT why Pascal's Wager is absurd. Think harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only read it, didnt think about it.

You might think its absurd cause it says that God rewards belief or that christianity is the only religion that says you will be judged, which is not true or that it says that you can choose belief or the costs that believing would bring or change in lifestyle rather.

I guess your Athestistic view is that whether or not I believe, if there is then he should judge you are your life and not just cause of belief(which I agree), if there isnt then you didnt lose anything in the first place. But I also think not exploring the possiblity is a decision you make to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christianity isn't the only religion that claims God will judge us based on our faith in him. There are an infinite number of Gods who will do this. And there are an infinite number of Gods who will do the opposite, and there are an infinite number of Gods who will refuse your entry into Heaven for wearing pants. You'd better take them off, just in case.

[SitNHit]

You can say whatever you want to justify the way you think. That's human nature.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
You can say whatever you want to justify the way you think. That's human nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but if you want people to listen you have to form coherent arguments and be rational.

Are you disputing my claim that there are an infinite number of possible Gods who will punish you to Hell for wearing pants?

[DougShrapnel]

Tony, you might want to try to make a list of all the things that your "faith" helps you to deal with. And then find secular alternatives. There is no reason why the transisiton must be painful. I've made a list for posters on this board a couple of times now, I'll gladly make it again if you or anyone wants. However I think speaking about fear is more important. The emmotions that we have, we have them becuase they are usefull. "Fear" is no different. Fear is what we feel when our body senses danger. Fear is needed to give the body/mind extra strentgh to fight or flight. After you make your list, use your fear to either flight back to theism or fight your indoctrination.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
You can say whatever you want to justify the way you think. That's human nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one wins the award for being both chillingly true and unintentionally hilarious.

Do you reject the idea that math and logic are essentially indisputable?

If so, then to be consistent you should pretty much avoid any attempt at rational discourse. But let's pretend. If math isn't correct, then how can we perform calculations of phenomenal precision? Why can we land a hunk of tin on the moon? How can we effectively engineer complex machines? How do we even know the earth revolves around the sun, and not the other way around? That cells exist? That water expands as it freezes because the molecules arrange themselves in an organized way? How do vaccines work, and medications? Surgery? Ballistics?

It's all math, baby. And Pascal's Wager has been mathematically disproved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_theorem). It's also circular - do you understand the meaning of that?

[Bad Beat Bill]

[ QUOTE ]

If its REALLY bothering you, go latch on to some religion to make you feel more comfortable. It doesn't matter which one. They're all equally true.

'nuf sed

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone came in here and preached Christianity as the ultimate truth in everything they'd get flamed, so why is garbage like this not looked down upon? There is waaaay too much unknown to us so that any rational person can say "all religions are equally as true".

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If its REALLY bothering you, go latch on to some religion to make you feel more comfortable. It doesn't matter which one. They're all equally true.

'nuf sed

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone came in here and preached Christianity as the ultimate truth in everything they'd get flamed, so why is garbage like this not looked down upon? There is waaaay too much unknown to us so that any rational person can say "all religions are equally as true".

[/ QUOTE ]

And so the default probability of each of the possible religions is the same. Whats wrong with that? If I don't know if the coin you have is biased or not, what should my guess of the likelihood of tails be? I hope we agree its .5?

[Dr. Strangelove]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I have become agnosticish, but I am deeply trying to hold on to what I do believe. The only reason for this is that the thought of not existing after death TERRIFIES me. It's probably my biggest fear. Just imagining not seeing, hearing, or THINKING gives me a panic attack. So my question for you all is how do you deal with this? I can't believe that the petty things I do and will do on earth is all that I can every do, is this the standard thought? Am I missing something? Are things like reincarnation considered reasonable in atheism? Set me straight guys, preach away. If this a dumb post have mercy on my soul /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the opposite view. I look forward to the eternal peace of non-existence.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can say whatever you want to justify the way you think. That's human nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

This one wins the award for being both chillingly true and unintentionally hilarious.

Do you reject the idea that math and logic are essentially indisputable?

If so, then to be consistent you should pretty much avoid any attempt at rational discourse. But let's pretend. If math isn't correct, then how can we perform calculations of phenomenal precision? Why can we land a hunk of tin on the moon? How can we effectively engineer complex machines? How do we even know the earth revolves around the sun, and not the other way around? That cells exist? That water expands as it freezes because the molecules arrange themselves in an organized way? How do vaccines work, and medications? Surgery? Ballistics?

It's all math, baby. And Pascal's Wager has been mathematically disproved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_free_lunch_theorem). It's also circular - do you understand the meaning of that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know every form of math but math has been correct on alot of things. The laws of Physics theories has been broken by Hubble but that doesnt matter. I am not going to say that math is wrong, but what about math we don't even have the ability to explore?

What I can say is that are things that cannot be disproved , or explained by any human mind, or compution of numbers.

Proof be the Universe. Its only theory how it started or that the universe exist farther then we have seen with our own technology.

I am not going to pretend that I am scholastically smarter then any of you hear, cause I am not. But isnt it possible that I may be smarter in other ways of thinking that you can't understand either?

If math is anything its that there is a right and wrong answer. So shouldnt there be a right and wrong for everything. Your either right or wrong, and it makes much more sense to me that a Supreme being exists then one not existing. Then I can expand into well if i believe that , then the bible makes alot of sense, and if I believe bible then it makes sense that Christ church would be restored, ok, i am getting off topic , i apologize. Now it takes more then sense to really believe I think, but its our senses that start the feeling, and from our feeling we make our judgements.

Sorry if this makes no sense, I am not too good at translated what I think into typing well. Specially typing as I think.

[Lestat]

Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll wager that the fundamental difference is that he did exist, liked it, and didn't want to miss out on anything.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, cause I believe when I do die, that Ill find the answers im for everything.

I honestly dont see how its more likely that the Bible and God don't exist then do exist. Thats something I won't ever understand how that if your looking at things that are most likely, how he not existing would be the one that makes more sense to you. You can use the proof argument, cause there is no proof otherwise either, its simple common sense, judgement, most have it, Gnostic Athiest and semi Gnostic don't. You may be scholastically smart, but your also awfully stupid. I rather be the awfully stupid in scholastics then in common sense and judgement. You can be both too.

But thats why your you and Im me and I would not have it any other way.

Im tired, night.

[Lestat]

What the heck is going on? There are some truly awful posts on here lately. Your response is so full of incoherent non sequiturs, I can't even tell if you're addressing me or someone else. What does anything I said even have to do with the bible?

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Holding on to what you want to believe is fine -- there's nothing wrong with making a choice in that regard. But you really shouldn't do it out of fear.

Your consciousness will remain every bit a part of reality, even in the most atheistic sense. The distinction between future, past, and present is somewhat misunderstood -- they're all a part of the same state of the universe. You should not think of death as "an event which causes you not to be" -- you should think of death (along with conception) more as a boundary to the little region of spacetime defining your existence. That corner of spacetime will always be yours; you do exist -- you have been granted reality along with the rest of the universe -- and nothing can ever change that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Metric,

I was wondering if this excellent post could in any way be elaborated on with respect to the many world’s theory of, I think, John Wheeler?

What bothered me upon reading your post is that certain individuals are going to expend a great portion of their individual allotment of space time, behind jail house bars, or even worse conditions. These people who have been granted reality are going to spend the eternity of their little niche of space time in miserable conditions.

So naturally, I wondered if their allotment of space time may indeed include all possible outcomes of their lives? Or, is the being you are in universe A different from the being you are in universe B, so that my question is nonsense?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, cause I believe when I do die, that Ill find the answers im for everything.

I honestly dont see how its more likely that the Bible and God don't exist then do exist. Thats something I won't ever understand how that if your looking at things that are most likely, how he not existing would be the one that makes more sense to you. You can use the proof argument, cause there is no proof otherwise either, its simple common sense, judgement, most have it, Gnostic Athiest and semi Gnostic don't. You may be scholastically smart, but your also awfully stupid. I rather be the awfully stupid in scholastics then in common sense and judgement. You can be both too.

But thats why your you and Im me and I would not have it any other way.

Im tired, night.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you feel the same way about the Koran? >50% chance of it being accurate?

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, cause I believe when I do die, that Ill find the answers im for everything.

I honestly dont see how its more likely that the Bible and God don't exist then do exist. Thats something I won't ever understand how that if your looking at things that are most likely, how he not existing would be the one that makes more sense to you. You can use the proof argument, cause there is no proof otherwise either, its simple common sense, judgement, most have it, Gnostic Athiest and semi Gnostic don't. You may be scholastically smart, but your also awfully stupid. I rather be the awfully stupid in scholastics then in common sense and judgement. You can be both too.

But thats why your you and Im me and I would not have it any other way.

Im tired, night.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you feel the same way about the Koran? >50% chance of it being accurate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there ever an instance that you answer is not a question.

When you answer things with a question your proving you have absolutley no leg to stand on and are just talking jibbrish.

MAybe comment on what I said and not just say the first question that comes to your mind. BTW, you assumed wrong.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, cause I believe when I do die, that Ill find the answers im for everything.

I honestly dont see how its more likely that the Bible and God don't exist then do exist. Thats something I won't ever understand how that if your looking at things that are most likely, how he not existing would be the one that makes more sense to you. You can use the proof argument, cause there is no proof otherwise either, its simple common sense, judgement, most have it, Gnostic Athiest and semi Gnostic don't. You may be scholastically smart, but your also awfully stupid. I rather be the awfully stupid in scholastics then in common sense and judgement. You can be both too.

But thats why your you and Im me and I would not have it any other way.

Im tired, night.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you feel the same way about the Koran? >50% chance of it being accurate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there ever an instance that you answer is not a question.

When you answer things with a question your proving you have absolutley no leg to stand on and are just talking jibbrish.

MAybe comment on what I said and not just say the first question that comes to your mind. BTW, you assumed wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a question, but it was obviously a pointed one. You are being a complete hypocrite if you make the claim that it is more likely than not that your religion is true, and less likely than not that all of the other religions are true. That is, unless you have some sort of support for your religions validity, which of course you do not.

I can't really address what you said because you didn't make any points. All you said was that your religion is more likely to be true than not. You didn't say why, you didn't give any support for your assertion. You just said it. So, I tried to get you to explain, by telling us if ALL religions are more likely than not to be true. I was hoping that question would open your eyes to the inconsistency of your position.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
The laws of Physics theories has been broken by Hubble but that doesnt matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this, please? Are you saying Hubble violated the laws of physics?

[ QUOTE ]
Its only theory

[/ QUOTE ]

A scientific theory is extremely strong. But in the case of the origins of the universe, you're right that it's hard to be sure. Still, the Big Bang theory is highly consistent with what we can observe.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not going to pretend that I am scholastically smarter then any of you hear, cause I am not. But isnt it possible that I may be smarter in other ways of thinking that you can't understand either?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. The problem is that Pascal's Wager is a logical argument. Therefore it is subject to logical constraints. If you think Pascal had an intuitive point, that's fine. He didn't have a logical point.

[ QUOTE ]
If math is anything its that there is a right and wrong answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is false. It's unfortunate that math is taught this way in elementary and high school. Math is about understanding the relationships between quantities. It's not about getting the right answer. Math is extremely reliable, which makes it a good tool for getting "the right answer" in practical applications, but even then it's more an answer consistent with our information than the "right" answer.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
When you answer things with a question your proving you have absolutley no leg to stand on and are just talking jibbrish.

[/ QUOTE ]

At least he's entertaining...

Answering a question with a question has been a sign of wisdom for thousands of years. My father is a Mormon Bishop and also a professor. He's a consummate scholar of the LDS faith. Answering a question with a question is one of his favorite techniques, and one I highly respect. I suppose despite his insight and what I'm sure you would call exceptional wisdom and "common sense" (personally I take Einstein's view of that) he must be a moron because he answers a question with a question.

[SitNHit]

Albert Einstein said the older I get the more I believe in there being a creator of all things. Einstein is obv a loon cause he made a statement he couldnt prove.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Albert Einstein said the older I get the more I believe in there being a creator of all things. Einstein is obv a loon cause he made a statement he couldnt prove.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its a huge problem for those who think your views are extremely irrational that Einstein had such a high regard for them.

chez

[madnak]

Einstein never said that. To his death he firmly rejected the idea of a personal God.

What he did say is "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
At least he's entertaining...


[/ QUOTE ]

But pointless. His threads go in pointless logic-free circles.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I honestly dont see how its more likely that the Bible and God don't exist then do exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Substitute Quran and Allah and you'd make a great Muslim.

And anyway who ever said the bible didn't exist? I saw a bunch of them in a bookstore yesterday.

[kevin017]

im gonna restate a question cause i really want to see it answered.

You say the bible makes sense, you believe in it. What about the koran? Do you not believe the koran is true? Why do you believe the bible is true, but the koran is not?

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
im gonna restate a question cause i really want to see it answered.

You say the bible makes sense, you believe in it. What about the koran? Do you not believe the koran is true? Why do you believe the bible is true, but the koran is not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats like saying why do you love this person and not this person. Cause I do. I know I love my Brother and I know that the Bible is true and the Koran isnt.

If you don't believe in faith then you don't believe in love. Your admitting that you really don't know if you love someone if you can't feel sure about the bible.

Asking how you know its true is not the question you should be asking, you should be asking how did you come to that belief.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
Cause I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't argue with that. Wonder if Muslims use the same reasoning to come to their faith? I'm thinking yes.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cause I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't argue with that. Wonder if Muslims use the same reasoning to come to their faith? I'm thinking yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats your choice to relate the two, which you have the free agency to do.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I love my Brother and I know that the Bible is true and the Koran isnt.


[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think this guy's purpose is to make txag appear to be a Rhodes Scholar.

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't believe in faith then you don't believe in love.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nonsensical statement of the day award.

[ QUOTE ]
Your admitting that you really don't know if you love someone if you can't feel sure about the bible.


[/ QUOTE ]

Come on. I refuse to believe even he thinks he's making sense.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cause I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't argue with that. Wonder if Muslims use the same reasoning to come to their faith? I'm thinking yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't get it or understand the significance. See all other threads he's in.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Asking how you know its true is not the question you should be asking, you should be asking how did you come to that belief.
</font>

You're 100% correct! And I wonder if you could answer such a question yourself with even a modicum of intellectual honesty. Do you honestly think that if you were born to a Muslim family in Pakistan, that you'd still view Jesus Christ as your Savior and would now be following the bible, instead of the Koran?

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Asking how you know its true is not the question you should be asking, you should be asking how did you come to that belief.
</font>

You're 100% correct! And I wonder if you could answer such a question yourself with even a modicum of intellectual honesty. Do you honestly think that if you were born to a Muslim family in Pakistan, that you'd still view Jesus Christ as your Savior and would now be following the bible, instead of the Koran?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how you guys over use and abuse the words intellectual and intelligence , does it make you feel smarter to use them over and over.

I guess I can see how saying, I challenge you to intellectually say something.

Nice use of the word intellectual. intellectual, just flows off the tounge, this forum should be called intellectual, only for people who take there intellectualness so seriously that they can tell if others arent intellectual, that is a supreme amount of intellectualality. To you should keep intellectualing it up and keep intellectualizing yourself and de-intellectualizing others.

You sir are a intellectualnator and I bow down to intellectual-supremcy over us God believing Folk.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Asking how you know its true is not the question you should be asking, you should be asking how did you come to that belief.
</font>

You're 100% correct! And I wonder if you could answer such a question yourself with even a modicum of intellectual honesty. Do you honestly think that if you were born to a Muslim family in Pakistan, that you'd still view Jesus Christ as your Savior and would now be following the bible, instead of the Koran?

[/ QUOTE ]

We should just call this "S.I.T.I#1" (Standard Ignored Theistic Inconsistancy #1) since this question has come up repeatedly in multiple threads to Christians. I believe its been directed to everyone from Txag to Notread to Bunny to This guy. One can search the forum til they're blue in the face and never find an acknowledgement that Christians come to their beliefs with the same process as Muslims and that's its nearly always a geographical accident.

We can just save time and post SITI1 and know that it will be ignored.

[JDalla]

Basically, SitNHit is either refusing to answer anything (because he can't) and is pretending he is... by using logic free straw man arguments and other confusing analogies (like "if you don't believe in the Bible, you don't believe in love), OR he just lacks the mental wherewithal to understand basic logic and reasoning. I hate to say that because it discourages intelligent discussion and promotes name calling, but he has insofar failed to post a single logical thread, or adaquately respond to any of the questions.

[DonkBluffer]

lol

arguing with SitNHit is like arguing with my father. He doesn't understand good, rational arguments, can't reply with good arguments and seems to be unable to stay ontopic. It's impossible to win a discussion with someone like that.

edit: SitNHit, is it possible for someone to believe something that is not true?

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, SitNHit is either refusing to answer anything (because he can't) and is pretending he is... by using logic free straw man arguments and other confusing analogies (like "if you don't believe in the Bible, you don't believe in love), OR he just lacks the mental wherewithal to understand basic logic and reasoning. I hate to say that because it discourages intelligent discussion and promotes name calling, but he has insofar failed to post a single logical thread, or adaquately respond to any of the questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anything is possible

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
lol

arguing with SitNHit is like arguing with my father. He doesn't understand good, rational arguments, can't reply with good arguments and seems to be unable to stay ontopic. It's impossible to win a discussion with someone like that.

edit: SitNHit, is it possible for someone to believe something that is not true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a guy I could watch American Idol with? Arf...

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice use of the word intellectual. intellectual, just flows off the tounge, this forum should be called intellectual, only for people who take there intellectualness so seriously that they can tell if others arent intellectual, that is a supreme amount of intellectualality. To you should keep intellectualing it up and keep intellectualizing yourself and de-intellectualizing others.

[/ QUOTE ]

My troll-dar apologizes for the bad read.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nice use of the word intellectual. intellectual, just flows off the tounge, this forum should be called intellectual, only for people who take there intellectualness so seriously that they can tell if others arent intellectual, that is a supreme amount of intellectualality. To you should keep intellectualing it up and keep intellectualizing yourself and de-intellectualizing others.

[/ QUOTE ]

My troll-dar apologizes for the bad read.

[/ QUOTE ]

If i were a troll id keep posting, but seriously, ive literally spent hours the last few days on this forum. I am not going to say it was a waste of time, but I will spend less in the future.

I love you all

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im gonna restate a question cause i really want to see it answered.

You say the bible makes sense, you believe in it. What about the koran? Do you not believe the koran is true? Why do you believe the bible is true, but the koran is not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats like saying why do you love this person and not this person. Cause I do. I know I love my Brother and I know that the Bible is true and the Koran isnt.

If you don't believe in faith then you don't believe in love. Your admitting that you really don't know if you love someone if you can't feel sure about the bible.

Asking how you know its true is not the question you should be asking, you should be asking how did you come to that belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, but of course, the claim you are making isn't that the Bible is true to you, its that the Bible is ACTUALLY true. 'Chocolate is the best kind of ice cream' is true to me, but its not actually true. I wouldn't go on a discussion board calling people morons for disputing the obvious truth of Chocolate Ice Cream. WHY is chocolate ice cream the best? Typical question from an infidel...don't you have FAITH!?!?!?

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Metric,

I was wondering if this excellent post could in any way be elaborated on with respect to the many world’s theory of, I think, John Wheeler?

What bothered me upon reading your post is that certain individuals are going to expend a great portion of their individual allotment of space time, behind jail house bars, or even worse conditions. These people who have been granted reality are going to spend the eternity of their little niche of space time in miserable conditions.

So naturally, I wondered if their allotment of space time may indeed include all possible outcomes of their lives? Or, is the being you are in universe A different from the being you are in universe B, so that my question is nonsense?

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good and subtle question.

The same region of spacetime would contain information about many outcomes, but most of these (or at least, the ones with the most statistical "weight") would be very similar to the one you are experiencing now, due to classical correspondence.

[goofball]

It's like it was like before you were born. That.

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Asking how you know its true is not the question you should be asking, you should be asking how did you come to that belief.
</font>

You're 100% correct! And I wonder if you could answer such a question yourself with even a modicum of intellectual honesty. Do you honestly think that if you were born to a Muslim family in Pakistan, that you'd still view Jesus Christ as your Savior and would now be following the bible, instead of the Koran?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how you guys over use and abuse the words intellectual and intelligence , does it make you feel smarter to use them over and over.

I guess I can see how saying, I challenge you to intellectually say something.

Nice use of the word intellectual. intellectual, just flows off the tounge, this forum should be called intellectual, only for people who take there intellectualness so seriously that they can tell if others arent intellectual, that is a supreme amount of intellectualality. To you should keep intellectualing it up and keep intellectualizing yourself and de-intellectualizing others.

You sir are a intellectualnator and I bow down to intellectual-supremcy over us God believing Folk.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the meantime, you haven't answered a single question put to you in a straight forward manner. It's easier for you to go off on a tirade about something completely irrelevant.

I'm not sure why moderators tolerate such trolls.

[siegfriedandroy]

stfu. not for this post, but for the one where i was banned. i said nothing wrong, and you misconstrued my words. you are fish. seriously, i would nearly guarantee (98%) that i could crush you at poker chess basketball, whatever. bu*l that i was banned. ur arguments are premordial. probably couldnt score 1555 on sat

[Phil153]

[ QUOTE ]
stfu. not for this post, but for the one where i was banned. i said nothing wrong, and you misconstrued my words. you are fish. seriously, i would nearly guarantee (98%) that i could crush you at poker chess basketball, whatever. bu*l that i was banned. ur arguments are premordial. probably couldnt score 1555 on sat

[/ QUOTE ]
A 98% guarantee means you would give happily give him any odds below 50-1 on poker, chess or basketball. So at 25-1, according to your own words, it should be significantly +EV for you.

I wonder if you're interested in a basketball/chess/poker contest at 25-1 odds? He puts up $100 and you put up $2500, winner takes all.

Words are cheap. You have three options:

1. Back up your words and offer Lestat these odds (I don't know if he's interested, but that's irrelevant)
2. Admit that you were wrong, and retract your statement
3. Do nothing and prove that you're a loud mouthed coward

Ball's in your court.

[siegfriedandroy]

wtf are you saying? i will gladly wager a twentieth of my roll to play lestat in bball.

[Phil153]

How about chess or poker?

[siegfriedandroy]

ok. lestat and me will play to 100 at bball. or play 10 out of 19 at chess. winner takes all. i will put up 10 times 2500 if he puts up that times 100. this would be absurdly plus ev for me.

[siegfriedandroy]

you could probably play chess for the next twenty years and still be sub 2000

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
stfu. not for this post, but for the one where i was banned. i said nothing wrong, and you misconstrued my words. you are fish. seriously, i would nearly guarantee (98%) that i could crush you at poker chess basketball, whatever. bu*l that i was banned. ur arguments are premordial. probably couldnt score 1555 on sat

[/ QUOTE ]

I would nearly guarantee (98%) that I could crush you at proper use of a message board, avoiding ad hominem, staying on topic, estimating SAT score range of other posters, and generally nondouchebaggery.

[holland3r]

I didn't care that I didn't exist before I was born, so I doubt I'll care much after I die.

That said, I plan on preserving my brain just in case nanites can revive it later...

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't care that I didn't exist before I was born, so I doubt I'll care much after I die.

That said, I plan on preserving my brain just in case nanites can revive it later...

[/ QUOTE ]

You should worry more about giving future generations a reason to restore your brain. Because if you think you'll just freeze yourself with some company and rely on them being around in the year 5830...

[iggymcfly]

Let's get away from Sitnhit for a minute since this was a thread for atheists to discuss nonexistence, not a thread for morons who are incapable of rational thought to tell us that they believe in the bible "because they do". I'd like to address the following quote:

[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem isn't that there will be a period of time that you won't exist. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Nonexistence in itself is not scary. The problem is that after your death, you will never exist. You'll never have any of your memories again, you'll never do or say anything again, and you'll never think anything again. I've been an atheist for a few years now (I'm currently 21), but I really don't understand how people just "come to peace" with nonexistence. I think that it should be extremely troubling for almost anyone.

[Metric]

How much does it bother you that you don't "exist" ten feet to the left of where you are sitting right now?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
How much does it bother you that you don't "exist" ten feet to the left of where you are sitting right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I get where you are coming from with this, and I don't suffer from the same thing as the OP, but this answer doesn't really help that much. He will just respond "Not at all....now can you answer my question?" He never had anything to miss before. The 'me' that doesn't exist ten feet over there can't answer your question. Only the me that exists right now is capable of feeling fear and dread.

I have no idea what would make the OP feel better. I don't share his dread. Some of the things said in this thread might do the trick, but only because his fear is really irrational and realizing that might help him out.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much does it bother you that you don't "exist" ten feet to the left of where you are sitting right now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I get where you are coming from with this, and I don't suffer from the same thing as the OP, but this answer doesn't really help that much. He will just respond "Not at all....now can you answer my question?" He never had anything to miss before. The 'me' that doesn't exist ten feet over there can't answer your question. Only the me that exists right now is capable of feeling fear and dread.

I have no idea what would make the OP feel better. I don't share his dread. Some of the things said in this thread might do the trick, but only because his fear is really irrational and realizing that might help him out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't even comprehend the fear. How can won be afraid of non-existence. If you don't exist, you can't 'miss' anything. You can't feel pain.

I kind of said this before... I don't really remember my dreams. When I go to sleep, its literally like I close my eyes, blink, and its 6 hours later. 6 hours of 'nothing.' For me to fear non-existence, wouldn't I have to fear sleeping since I'm not aware of anything for those 6 hours?

[iggymcfly]

Didn't I just explain this three posts up? It's not that the actual act of not existing is scary. It's missing the chance to ever exist that's bothersome.

I'll give you an analogy. Does it bother you that you're not having sex right now? No? Me either. Now what about if you were castrated? Would that bother you? Knowing that you could never have sex for the rest of your life? That would be much more bothersome since you're missing out on something forever.

Now tell me what's worse. Missing out on sex or missing out on every aspect of existence? Every action and every thought. Pretty sure it would be the second one.

[Metric]

Moving into the future doesn't mean that you "cease to exist" any more than moving to the left or the right causes you to "cease to exist." The information describing your existence is a fixed property of the universe -- not something that just flies off to nowhere when you die. Your perception of the past flowing into the future is a consequence of the particular dynamics describing the universe.

By way of (probably insufficient) analogy, just because Darth Vader dies at the end of the Star Wars movies, doesn't mean that Darth Vader ceases being a property of the Star Wars movies. Those Star Wars movies will always be about Darth Vader.

[Lestat]

bball is probably his best bet. I'm not even 6' tall and my impression is it sure sounds like he has an edge in the youth department. I definitely wouldn't be a 10 to 1 dog against an average person, but I have no way of knowing sieg's physical/athletic capabilities. However, I do have a pretty good idea of his intellectual capabilities.

In poker, I'd wager any amount up to a 60k loss on my end. The only reason I wouldn't wager more is the possibility of cheating. In chess, I'd probably go up to 25k depending on how he wants to work the odds and/or handicap.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get away from Sitnhit for a minute since this was a thread for atheists to discuss nonexistence, not a thread for morons who are incapable of rational thought to tell us that they believe in the bible "because they do".

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be moronic sometimes but im not a moron.

[madnak]

Well, someone has a pair. What do you say to that, sieg?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, someone has a pair. What do you say to that, sieg?

[/ QUOTE ]

My prediction? Waffling by sober SAR followed by brash talk from drunk SAR.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
My prediction? Waffling by sober SAR followed by brash talk from drunk SAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Startling!

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Didn't I just explain this three posts up? It's not that the actual act of not existing is scary. It's missing the chance to ever exist that's bothersome.

I'll give you an analogy. Does it bother you that you're not having sex right now? No? Me either. Now what about if you were castrated? Would that bother you? Knowing that you could never have sex for the rest of your life? That would be much more bothersome since you're missing out on something forever.

Now tell me what's worse. Missing out on sex or missing out on every aspect of existence? Every action and every thought. Pretty sure it would be the second one.

[/ QUOTE ]

But there's a key problem with your analogy. If you are castrated but alive, you are aware that you cannot have sex. Therefore, your loss effects you.

If you cease to exist, its irrelevent. You cannot feel the effects of your loss.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
But there's a key problem with your analogy. If you are castrated but alive, you are aware that you cannot have sex. Therefore, your loss effects you.

If you cease to exist, its irrelevent. You cannot feel the effects of your loss.

[/ QUOTE ]
But you can while you're alive - and that's when he feels the fear. (Perhaps it's closer to being held in a cell, knowing you're about to be castrated. Presumably that would be scary.)

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
But you can while you're alive - and that's when he feels the fear. (Perhaps it's closer to being held in a cell, knowing you're about to be castrated. Presumably that would be scary.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analogy, but since we are all on "death row", so to speak, what's the point of wasting our current moments worrying about it? The executioner could come for us in 5 minutes or in many years. Either way, we won't be aware of it once it happens. So it seems self-defeating to spend precious time worrying about it.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But you can while you're alive - and that's when he feels the fear. (Perhaps it's closer to being held in a cell, knowing you're about to be castrated. Presumably that would be scary.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analogy, but since we are all on "death row", so to speak, what's the point of wasting our current moments worrying about it? The executioner could come for us in 5 minutes or in many years. Either way, we won't be aware of it once it happens. So it seems self-defeating to spend precious time worrying about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and past a certain point, eustress becomes distress, but that doesn't mean my palms don't sweat when I'm about to go on stage. So, what can I do to mitigate the admittedly self-defeating fear I feel?*

*I don't have either stage-fright or fear of non-existence, but I like speaking in the first person.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's get away from Sitnhit for a minute since this was a thread for atheists to discuss nonexistence, not a thread for morons who are incapable of rational thought to tell us that they believe in the bible "because they do". I'd like to address the following quote:

[ QUOTE ]
Does it give you panic attacks to think about the billions of years before you were born when you didn't see, hear, or think anything? Why should it bother you the 2nd time you don't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem isn't that there will be a period of time that you won't exist. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Nonexistence in itself is not scary. The problem is that after your death, you will never exist. You'll never have any of your memories again, you'll never do or say anything again, and you'll never think anything again. I've been an atheist for a few years now (I'm currently 21), but I really don't understand how people just "come to peace" with nonexistence. I think that it should be extremely troubling for almost anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you won't be around to realize this. Also, if you want memories to be remembered by SOMEBODY, then write your memoirs for people to read.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get away from Sitnhit for a minute since this was a thread for atheists to discuss nonexistence, not a thread for morons who are incapable of rational thought to tell us that they believe in the bible "because they do".

[/ QUOTE ]

I <font color="white">may</font> be <font color="white">moronic sometimes but im not a</font> moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's get away from Sitnhit for a minute since this was a thread for atheists to discuss nonexistence, not a thread for morons who are incapable of rational thought to tell us that they believe in the bible "because they do".

[/ QUOTE ]

I <font color="white">may</font> be <font color="white">moronic sometimes but im not a</font> moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think making the 'a' white also was the real stroke of comedic genius.

[MaxWeiss]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gifI'm glad I get the credit for that being intentional; I was sure I wouldn't. (It was.)

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Moving into the future doesn't mean that you "cease to exist" any more than moving to the left or the right causes you to "cease to exist." The information describing your existence is a fixed property of the universe -- not something that just flies off to nowhere when you die. Your perception of the past flowing into the future is a consequence of the particular dynamics describing the universe.

By way of (probably insufficient) analogy, just because Darth Vader dies at the end of the Star Wars movies, doesn't mean that Darth Vader ceases being a property of the Star Wars movies. Those Star Wars movies will always be about Darth Vader.



[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Metric,

I’m still trying hard to grasp in the best manner what you are implying. You mentioned that the past flows into the future. You seemed to indicate that it is more than a perception, but a fixed part of the universe.
If I could go to bed at night and wake up as an eight year old boy once again, and also have the ability to remember the future, what you are saying about our reality being a fixed part of the universe would be something easily grasped. But instead time flows in only one direction, which I find troubling.
Here’s a sloppy analogy to try to grasp what I’m hearing. If our minds and bodies are a bundle of information lying in some spot in the universe, well, I picture that as an old vinyl record that begins playing music, then once it ends ( at least if it’s like my old beat up stereo ) the needle simply bumps and scratches forever until the plug is pulled. All the musical information is there, but it isn’t heard or accessed because there is no mechanism for playback. Because the needle of my old stereo is only capable of going from start to finish, well, once it’s finished, that’s it. All information contained on the record merely lies dormant and unused, or heard.
Bottom line - when I die, will I just pop back into some pleasant ( or perhaps unpleasant ) portion of my life? Similar to what happened to that fellow killed in the movie, The Thin Red Line, and similar to what occurs in Slaughter House Five, or will I , because the universe must move from back to forward, make like my old vinyl record and just bump and grind into endless oblivion?

[Metric]

The main fault with our analogies, and the thing we have to get over is the feeling that someone has to "play" the record for the music to be there. The music is always there. Feburary 23rd 2007 will always be there, and always in it you'll have the perception of time evolving smoothly from past to future, accumulating memories.

So yes, you'll always be that kid playing at the seashore. That information is permanently a part of the universe -- it doesn't need to be "replayed" for your 8-year-old self to be delighted at finding a starfish. It's there, and it's every bit as real as "right now."

If you'd like a little physics justification for this, I can give it to you. In the "old-school" approach to doing physics, we imagine the state of the universe as it exists "right now" -- call it &lt;Psi1|. In the past the state was &lt;Psi0|, and sometime in the future the state will be &lt;Psi2|. They are all distinct states, and we imagine them evolving continuously with time one into the other. What a tragedy it is that in the distant future we won't be a part of Psi!

But relativity forces a different view on us. States don't evolve from one to the other like this -- instead, there is only one state:

... + &lt;Psi0|&lt;t=0| + &lt;Psi1|&lt;t=1| + &lt;Psi2|&lt;t=2| + ...

What you call the present is just a "piece" of the covariant state. It contains information on the "right now." But looking at this state, please tell me which piece is more real than any other piece? Each one of those terms involves you and a perception of "right now" being the "real" time -- but they're all the real time!

(Incidentally, this is one reason that quantum gravity is hard -- one has to be very subtle in order to tease out a notion of "time" from a formalism in which it doesn't naturally exist as an external variable -- you have to identify it somehow from within the state itself)

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But you can while you're alive - and that's when he feels the fear. (Perhaps it's closer to being held in a cell, knowing you're about to be castrated. Presumably that would be scary.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analogy, but since we are all on "death row", so to speak, what's the point of wasting our current moments worrying about it? The executioner could come for us in 5 minutes or in many years. Either way, we won't be aware of it once it happens. So it seems self-defeating to spend precious time worrying about it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont see your objection really. I worry about what's going to happen to me sometimes, even when I'm helpless to do anything about it (after I've interviewed for a job, after I've sat an exam, after I've asked a girl out, etc etc...) Maybe it doesnt do any good - but it's not like I sit down and "decide" to worry, it just happens. Kurto said he didnt understand the OP's concern, since he wouldnt be there to worry after he was dead - I was just pointing out that the worrying happens pre-death. (For some, anyhow)

EDIT: Perhaps, continuing the analogy, I would just point out that I probably would worry if I were on death row. Even if it was, as you say "a waste of current moments" or "self-defeating".

[eurythmech]

[ QUOTE ]

I had a different, but similar, problem. I had full-blown panic attacks about hell

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[Lestat]

Your examples are worries about pain and future consequences. There is no pain or consequence to bear after death. I do see your point though. Dread is dread and apprehension is apprehension. You can't just tell it to go away.

Ironically, I think there was a study done, which concluded that people who believed in God tend to be more afraid of meeting death. That makes sense, since that no matter how strong their faith, they must worry there is at least some chance they did not live up to God's expectations and will wind up living out eternity with the one with the pointy ears and tail.