Those who don't believe in life after death - Why not Kill Yourself? [Archive]

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SitNHit

02-19-2007, 04:15 PM

If you were to gather up a group of people lets say 100 random, that believe that there is no God and that we evolved and that when we die we just go in the ground and it's the end. Why wouldnt they just kill themselves?

They wouldn't feel bad about leaving the ones they know cause they wouldn't feel anything anymore, it would be no consequence to them.

I know some may have fun lives so ok, theres a case for not, but what about the majority group who have sucky jobs, living paycheck to paycheck, health problems, ugly, small dicks, cant get laid, depression, paying child support to kids they dont even know, or a million other possiblities that life freaking sucks to wake up to every morning.

Why not just end your life if it doesnt matter, and since there is no after life and you just would cease to exist forever, there would be no consequence.

I think the answer is that a majority of these people deep down have a fear just like those who do believe in God that our choices do matter and the what if factor. What if I kill myself and I end up being judged for it by Jesus Christ, etc.

Just curious is all, sorry if my grammer isnt perfect, me no paya attencion in english classe.

alphatmw

02-19-2007, 04:27 PM

so when you go to the movies, and you know that the movie is only 2 hours long, why not just leave before the movie starts? i mean, the movie might suck, right?

Johnny Drama

02-19-2007, 04:30 PM

wouldn't it make more sense to kill yourself if you thought there was a better afterlife waiting for you?

eurythmech

02-19-2007, 04:31 PM

So wait...your life is just a long wait to die?

lol Christianityments

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 04:32 PM

1. If I knew that movie was gonna be possible years long and have lots of painful moments and boring parts that there would be no purpose to endure, then yes.

2. If you beieve in an after-life then a basic moral principle would be to get their naturally cause anything unnatural would be wrong.

Prodigy54321

02-19-2007, 04:33 PM

we have some new guy start a thread like this every month it seems.

why would someone who can live forever after death appreciate this life more than a person who knows that this is the only one that they will get?

if you are suffering and are quite sure that you will continue to suffer, then I see no reason why suicide wouldn't be a fine option...but most people aren't continually suffering...

[ QUOTE ]
I know some may have fun lives so ok, theres a case for not, but what about the majority group who have sucky jobs, living paycheck to paycheck, health problems, ugly, small dicks, cant get laid, depression, paying child support to kids they dont even know, or a million other possiblities that life freaking sucks to wake up to every morning.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you made happy by drinking your morning coffee? by making money to buy other things that make you happy? by seeing your spouse or children?..these are all "reasons to get up in the morning."..and these are all prevalent in most people's lives, not just the very well off.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the answer is that a majority of these people deep down have a fear just like those who do believe in God that our choices do matter and the what if factor. What if I kill myself and I end up being judged for it by Jesus Christ, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how poeple with no inkling of an afterlife where they would be judged kept from killing themselves?

a tendency to commit suicide...be it at the gene level OR the meme...would not last very long..I'm sure you see why.

when I look at a cheesesteak..my brain tells me that I want to take a bite, not that I should kill myself since it won't matter anyway.

Prodigy54321

02-19-2007, 04:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. If you beieve in an after-life then a basic moral principle would be to get their naturally cause anything unnatural would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

so do you believe that there is no way to go to heaven if you commit suicide?

kevin017

02-19-2007, 04:38 PM

5 years ago i'd agree that maybe i had some fear deep down. i completely don't now that i've believed what I do for longer, and i don't even remember what its like to care about that kindof thing.

I don't kill myself because i enjoy life, and i don't want to hurt those around me. I think the main reason people who are down on their luck don't kill themself is because A. dying is a scary because it is painful, irreversable, and unknown. B. we are naturally hopeful that we will get some semblance of enjoyment out of life that is better than conceding defeat that you suck at life.

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So wait...your life is just a long wait to die?

lol Christianityments

[/ QUOTE ]

Im saying that it doesnt matter what I feel about it, it would be morally wrong to end whatever I have instored for the future. For someone who doesnt believe, it wouldnt be.

LOL at Athiestments

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 04:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
5 years ago i'd agree that maybe i had some fear deep down. i completely don't now that i've believed what I do for longer, and i don't even remember what its like to care about that kindof thing.

I don't kill myself because i enjoy life, and i don't want to hurt those around me. I think the main reason people who are down on their luck don't kill themself is because A. dying is a scary because it is painful, irreversable, and unknown. B. we are naturally hopeful that we will get some semblance of enjoyment out of life that is better than conceding defeat that you suck at life.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a fair response with some good points, nice to see at least one. Like not quitting a poker table cause you may start getting that rush of hands your due. I can totally see that mentality keeping a guy living.

madnak

02-19-2007, 05:09 PM

You need some Prozac, buddy.

Dan.

02-19-2007, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't it make more sense to kill yourself if you thought there was a better afterlife waiting for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

arahant

02-19-2007, 05:19 PM

People don't avoid suicide for moral reasons, period. That includes you.

Most people, regardless of religion, don't kill themselves because we aren't wired that way. That 'evolution' thing you mentioned? It leads pretty automatically to an instinct of self-preservation (isn't that neat how science can explain things?).

You seem to be failing to realize that the 'morals' are the foundation of your religion, not vice versa.

Phil153

02-19-2007, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im saying that it doesnt matter what I feel about it, it would be morally wrong to end whatever I have instored for the future. For someone who doesnt believe, it wouldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah? Does your own morality depend on some Superdaddy in the sky?

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 06:09 PM

Kerth

02-19-2007, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

2. If you beieve in an after-life then a basic moral principle would be to get their naturally cause anything unnatural would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? How the heck does "suicide is wrong" follow from "I believe in an afterlife"?

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People don't avoid suicide for moral reasons, period. That includes you.

Most people, regardless of religion, don't kill themselves because we aren't wired that way. That 'evolution' thing you mentioned? It leads pretty automatically to an instinct of self-preservation (isn't that neat how science can explain things?).

You seem to be failing to realize that the 'morals' are the foundation of your religion, not vice versa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think the self-preservation instinct cant be considered a scientific explanation or discovery. Its almost logically inescapable. I mean, you have to posit inheritability, I suppose, but the people who want to live are going to be the ones who live, and I think that is pretty obvious to most.

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2. If you beieve in an after-life then a basic moral principle would be to get their naturally cause anything unnatural would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? How the heck does "suicide is wrong" follow from "I believe in an afterlife"?

[/ QUOTE ]

He omitted a few steps in there, like "The gate to that afterlife is guarded by a vengeful, fickle being" and "you have to accept the list of contradictory, confusing and trying rules that I've got in this book here....no, not that one...no, you idiot, THIS one...in order to get in."

bunny

02-19-2007, 06:17 PM

I dont kill myself because my life has value. It seems to me that an underlying premise in your argument is that life is only valuable if it lasts forever (ie if there is an afterlife) - I dont see why this should be true. I've been in pretty unpleasant situations before when I didnt believe there was anything after death - nonetheless, I have never been in a situation where I thought life had no value. To me, life is inherently valuable - it doesnt matter how long it lasts.

If someone didnt value life (including their own) then it would make sense to commit suicide I guess, but not believing in an afterlife does not imply you think life has no value.

arahant

02-19-2007, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People don't avoid suicide for moral reasons, period. That includes you.

Most people, regardless of religion, don't kill themselves because we aren't wired that way. That 'evolution' thing you mentioned? It leads pretty automatically to an instinct of self-preservation (isn't that neat how science can explain things?).

You seem to be failing to realize that the 'morals' are the foundation of your religion, not vice versa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even think the self-preservation instinct cant be considered a scientific explanation or discovery. Its almost logically inescapable. I mean, you have to posit inheritability, I suppose, but the people who want to live are going to be the ones who live, and I think that is pretty obvious to most.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe 'most'. Certainly not 'all'. Exhibit A being OP.

Hopey

02-19-2007, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im saying that it doesnt matter what I feel about it, it would be morally wrong to end whatever I have instored for the future. For someone who doesnt believe, it wouldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah? Does your own morality depend on some Superdaddy in the sky?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently he's all that keeps many theists from raping and killing as well...at least from what I've deduced from the reasoning of the theist posters on here, anyway.

Duke

02-19-2007, 06:39 PM

I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

You start with the premise that someone realizes that they have exactly one shot to be alive, and draw from that conclusion that it makes sense for them to kill themselves? Really? You hate life that much?

catalyst

02-19-2007, 06:41 PM

OP, this is the dumbest thread I have read in a long time.

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't think this is really true. I think there are far more people who THINK they would be this way than people who actually WOULD be this way. And thats because people follow a moral compass that is based on their own reason (and their evolutionary past). But, they naively think that arguments along these lines are a clever salvo to go after the godless atheists. There's really nothing better than being able to put people you disagree with in an inferior outgroup.

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't think this is really true. I think there are far more people who THINK they would be this way than people who actually WOULD be this way. And thats because people follow a moral compass that is based on their own reason (and their evolutionary past). But, they naively think that arguments along these lines are a clever salvo to go after the godless atheists. There's really nothing better than being able to put people you disagree with in an inferior outgroup.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, that exactly what I meant. Its always belief not fact.

chez

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't think this is really true. I think there are far more people who THINK they would be this way than people who actually WOULD be this way. And thats because people follow a moral compass that is based on their own reason (and their evolutionary past). But, they naively think that arguments along these lines are a clever salvo to go after the godless atheists. There's really nothing better than being able to put people you disagree with in an inferior outgroup.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, that exactly what I meant. Its always belief not fact.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was agreeing with what you were saying, I was just trying to make the point that even these people who BELIEVE this are wrong about themselves. If they became atheists tomorrow they would act just about the same as they do now, for better or worse. I was only arguing with the 'miserable specimens' part. They either are or are not miserable specimens, and their misplaced belief about WHY they are this way has little to do with.

purnell

02-19-2007, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2. If you beieve in an after-life then a basic moral principle would be to get their naturally cause anything unnatural would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this "moral principle" logically follow from belief in an afterlife?

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 07:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I don't think this is really true. I think there are far more people who THINK they would be this way than people who actually WOULD be this way. And thats because people follow a moral compass that is based on their own reason (and their evolutionary past). But, they naively think that arguments along these lines are a clever salvo to go after the godless atheists. There's really nothing better than being able to put people you disagree with in an inferior outgroup.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, that exactly what I meant. Its always belief not fact.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was agreeing with what you were saying, I was just trying to make the point that even these people who BELIEVE this are wrong about themselves. If they became atheists tomorrow they would act just about the same as they do now, for better or worse. I was only arguing with the 'miserable specimens' part. They either are or are not miserable specimens, and their misplaced belief about WHY they are this way has little to do with.

[/ QUOTE ]
Miserable specimens is partly the label for what they believe they would be and partly because its a miserable thing to believe.

Many theists aren't miserable specimans in this way but we get our fair share croping up here.

chez

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 08:03 PM

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently he's all that keeps many theists from raping and killing as well...at least from what I've deduced from the reasoning of the theist posters on here, anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, Raping and Killing have punishments in our society. If you raped and killed and didnt take your own life, your subject to punishment, reasons why people dont rape and kill are if they did they would get in trouble, or they are not evil people.

According to Athiest, killing your has no punishment.

You guys have the worst analogies.

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 08:08 PM

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this "moral principle" logically follow from belief in an afterlife?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, assuming that the After Life is Heaven since I havent heard anybody believes we go to harry potter land or any other place.

If you believe in Heaven, you believe in God, you believe that killing yourself is a sin.

smarty

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

You start with the premise that someone realizes that they have exactly one shot to be alive, and draw from that conclusion that it makes sense for them to kill themselves? Really? You hate life that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im saying, lets say there is a good life, bad life, and no life. Well, If you dont have a good life, wouldnt no life be better then a bad life. Since your bad life serves no eternal purpose. Think about it instead of wondering why people think what they do. I could say the same for Thiest but I dont dare try to be that smart(sarcasm)

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not their way of coping, its gives them reason to go on knowing its for something. For some reason, I can't imagine an Athiest trying to be overly good and going out of their way to doing lots of good deeds in service soley cause it makes them feel good. But I can imagine a religious person doing so cause they know that they are serving a purpose and that makes them feel good.

Atheist are HIGHLY narcisistic and thats not a good thing.

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its not their way of coping, its gives them reason to go on knowing its for something.

[/ QUOTE ]
that is their way of coping.

chez

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
According to Athiest, killing your has no punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's simply wrong and confirms the earlier point about miserable specimens.

chez

ChrisV

02-19-2007, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im saying, lets say there is a good life, bad life, and no life. Well, If you dont have a good life, wouldnt no life be better then a bad life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, which is why atheists generally support euthanasia. There are several reasons why people would not want to kill themselves if they only have a slightly bad life. First, there's the chance their life might get better later; if it gets worse instead, they can always kill themselves then. Secondly, there's an innate aversion to killing oneself. Asking why this is so is like asking "Why would you have sex with contraception when it can't result in procreation?". Thirdly, people often have responsibilities to others - children, for instance.

For the majority of atheists, though, the answer to "why not kill yourself" is simply "I'm having fun".

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 08:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this "moral principle" logically follow from belief in an afterlife?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, assuming that the After Life is Heaven since I havent heard anybody believes we go to harry potter land or any other place.

If you believe in Heaven, you believe in God, you believe that killing yourself is a sin.

smarty

[/ QUOTE ]

All Gods say this?

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

You start with the premise that someone realizes that they have exactly one shot to be alive, and draw from that conclusion that it makes sense for them to kill themselves? Really? You hate life that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im saying, lets say there is a good life, bad life, and no life. Well, If you dont have a good life, wouldnt no life be better then a bad life. Since your bad life serves no eternal purpose. Think about it instead of wondering why people think what they do. I could say the same for Thiest but I dont dare try to be that smart(sarcasm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you have a horrible life with no prospects at improving it, suicide would be better than continuing to live. And some people, in that situation, kill themselves. Probably many people who kill themselves at least THINK they are in that situation.

Do you really think that some huge % of people in the world have lives that are so bad, with such dire prospects of improving, and are sufficiently aware of this fact, that suicide should kill more than, say, the 150,000 Americans who attempt suicide each year or the 30,000 or so who succeed?

ChrisV

02-19-2007, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I can't imagine an Athiest trying to be overly good and going out of their way to doing lots of good deeds in service soley cause it makes them feel good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Why the hell not?

Every time there's one of these threads, I get the uncomfortable feeling that the only reason religious people ever do good is because they're afraid the Big Guy in the Sky is watching. If there was no God, would you really never buy anyone a present, care for a sick person, or donate to a charity?

[ QUOTE ]
Atheist are HIGHLY narcisistic

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who? Do you have a study on this?

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
There are some who without their religon 1) wouldn't find their life worth living and/or 2) would be amoral. They cant understand why others aren't as miseranble specimans as they.

Religon is their way of coping - sadly it cures 1) but not 2).

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not their way of coping, its gives them reason to go on knowing its for something. For some reason, I can't imagine an Athiest trying to be overly good and going out of their way to doing lots of good deeds in service soley cause it makes them feel good. But I can imagine a religious person doing so cause they know that they are serving a purpose and that makes them feel good.

Atheist are HIGHLY narcisistic and thats not a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is an atrocious thing to say about your fellow theists. Your ignorant insult of atheists, tacked on to the end of your post presumably to balance out the much, much harsher earlier insult to theists, falls far short of its goal.

chief444

02-19-2007, 08:40 PM

Because they value their lives more thinking it is all they have.

Mathematically:

Value of each day is inversely proportional to #days left to live.

Therefore as #days left approaches infinity the value of each day approaches zero.

Or maybe just the "majority group" doesn't have as bad of a life as you seem to think. I doubt if it has anything to do with a fear that they are wrong about what happens or doesn't happen after life. Most atheists are probably more firm in their beliefs than theists IMO.

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 08:43 PM

Ok, I understand the proscription against suicide in most major religions. But are most of you theists just sitting around, counting down the seconds, wishing that you could only cut your wrists? And if not, don't you understand how irrational you are being? You should be driving fast cars, jumping out of planes, intervening in drug deals gone bad, defending campsites from bear attacks, and so on. No matter how great your life is, no matter how much you love your family, these all equal NOTHING when compared to the infinite happiness that surely awaits you.

Does the Bible say no banana-picking?

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to Athiest, killing your has no punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's simply wrong and confirms the earlier point about miserable specimens.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant killing yourself...

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to Athiest, killing your has no punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's simply wrong and confirms the earlier point about miserable specimens.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant killing yourself...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats what I assumed, but its obvious chez did not. Can you see, now, how taking an extra few seconds and trying to make your posts intelligible prevents confusion? I am the last person to criticize spelling and grammar, but now we've reached a fairly ridiculous point where we are just as confused by your spelling as we are by your thinking.

bunny

02-19-2007, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I can't imagine an Athiest trying to be overly good and going out of their way to doing lots of good deeds in service soley cause it makes them feel good. But I can imagine a religious person doing so cause they know that they are serving a purpose and that makes them feel good.

Atheist are HIGHLY narcisistic and thats not a good thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am an atheist who tries to do good things because I think it is right, not because it makes me feel good. Calling atheists "HIGHLY narcissistic" just because you cant imagine them any other way is akin to the atheists who say theists are dumb. If you cant imagine how an atheist can do good deeds, doesnt it imply that you have more to learn about atheism? Or do you not see any examples of good things done by atheists?

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

You start with the premise that someone realizes that they have exactly one shot to be alive, and draw from that conclusion that it makes sense for them to kill themselves? Really? You hate life that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im saying, lets say there is a good life, bad life, and no life. Well, If you dont have a good life, wouldnt no life be better then a bad life. Since your bad life serves no eternal purpose. Think about it instead of wondering why people think what they do. I could say the same for Thiest but I dont dare try to be that smart(sarcasm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you have a horrible life with no prospects at improving it, suicide would be better than continuing to live. And some people, in that situation, kill themselves. Probably many people who kill themselves at least THINK they are in that situation.

Do you really think that some huge % of people in the world have lives that are so bad, with such dire prospects of improving, and are sufficiently aware of this fact, that suicide should kill more than, say, the 150,000 Americans who attempt suicide each year or the 30,000 or so who succeed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 90% of people believe in a supreme being. And yes I think that many peeps have sucky ass existances and the only thing good about them is knowing that there is a purpose for there suckyness which makes it less painful. But what I just said was extreme on purpose and thats why it sounds wrong. Kind of like there is no chance of there being a God thing, get it?

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to Athiest, killing your has no punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's simply wrong and confirms the earlier point about miserable specimens.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant killing yourself...

[/ QUOTE ]
oh your was a misspelling of yourself, I thought you'd missed off a word; wife, enemies, dog ....

Anyway nothing wrong with killing yourself so its a good thing there's no punishment. Even if god exists he would be a monstrosity if he punished anyone for killing themselves.

You should have a higher opinion of your god less he punishes you for slighting him.

chez

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm kinda lost as to the initial thought process that went into making this thread.

You start with the premise that someone realizes that they have exactly one shot to be alive, and draw from that conclusion that it makes sense for them to kill themselves? Really? You hate life that much?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im saying, lets say there is a good life, bad life, and no life. Well, If you dont have a good life, wouldnt no life be better then a bad life. Since your bad life serves no eternal purpose. Think about it instead of wondering why people think what they do. I could say the same for Thiest but I dont dare try to be that smart(sarcasm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if you have a horrible life with no prospects at improving it, suicide would be better than continuing to live. And some people, in that situation, kill themselves. Probably many people who kill themselves at least THINK they are in that situation.

Do you really think that some huge % of people in the world have lives that are so bad, with such dire prospects of improving, and are sufficiently aware of this fact, that suicide should kill more than, say, the 150,000 Americans who attempt suicide each year or the 30,000 or so who succeed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 90% of people believe in a supreme being. And yes I think that many peeps have sucky ass existances and the only thing good about them is knowing that there is a purpose for there suckyness which makes it less painful. But what I just said was extreme on purpose and thats why it sounds wrong. Kind of like there is no chance of there being a God thing, get it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sure that those 'peeps' are glad to know that you think they have miserable lives. But that was only one of my conditions. They would also have to be atheists (far, far fewer 'miserable' people fit into this category), have slim chances to improve their lot, and be aware of all of these things. Still think there should be more suicides?

And no, your point wasn't extreme. It was just wrong. I really hope you aren't trying to make some grand, analagous point, because you are failing miserably.

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I can't imagine an Athiest trying to be overly good and going out of their way to doing lots of good deeds in service soley cause it makes them feel good.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Why the hell not?

Every time there's one of these threads, I get the uncomfortable feeling that the only reason religious people ever do good is because they're afraid the Big Guy in the Sky is watching. If there was no God, would you really never buy anyone a present, care for a sick person, or donate to a charity?

_____

Now thats not a fair assumption is it? People can't be naturally develope to be good? Your too obsessed with this God stuff, I tell ya, lol.....

[ QUOTE ]
Atheist are HIGHLY narcisistic

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who? Do you have a study on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its a safe assumption that a majority would agree with.... And I can already guess ur reply to this statement is , well a majority believes in the Bible, and that isnt true either. blah. gg.

chezlaw

02-19-2007, 09:13 PM

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because they value their lives more thinking it is all they have.

Mathematically:

Value of each day is inversely proportional to #days left to live.

Therefore as #days left approaches infinity the value of each day approaches zero.

Or maybe just the "majority group" doesn't have as bad of a life as you seem to think. I doubt if it has anything to do with a fear that they are wrong about what happens or doesn't happen after life. Most atheists are probably more firm in their beliefs than theists IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats an interesting perspective and a valid one, and im sure for some that is a reason..

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Does the Bible say no banana-picking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Another great analogy, comparing banana picking to suicide. You must be a lawyer, right?

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Does the Bible say no banana-picking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Another great analogy, comparing banana picking to suicide. You must be a lawyer, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Did you read that post at all? Quick test: Re-read the post that you took that quote from and try and give me a one-sentence synopsis.

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to Athiest, killing your has no punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's simply wrong and confirms the earlier point about miserable specimens.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant killing yourself...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, thats what I assumed, but its obvious chez did not. Can you see, now, how taking an extra few seconds and trying to make your posts intelligible prevents confusion? I am the last person to criticize spelling and grammar, but now we've reached a fairly ridiculous point where we are just as confused by your spelling as we are by your thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, having started posting here, I am def seeing the difference in how I form sentences and paragraphs then you guys and I need to work on that, it's something I am going to improve on . Thanks..

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I am an atheist who tries to do good things because I think it is right, not because it makes me feel good. Calling atheists "HIGHLY narcissistic" just because you cant imagine them any other way is akin to the atheists who say theists are dumb. If you cant imagine how an atheist can do good deeds, doesnt it imply that you have more to learn about atheism? Or do you not see any examples of good things done by atheists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this interesting and I'm just gonna give my opinion on it. Your an athiest who believes in right and wrong? Has right and wrong been proven? Is there evidence? It's really just what you think, but why would you think that if there is no evidence to support that there is a right and wrong. Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge, so do you know that some of your beliefs of right and wrong come from the writings of man that say God 100% exist? And if you believe them about right and wrong , why not explore the possiblity of the latter?

This was my immediate thought, would love to hear opinions on this, thanks.

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am an atheist who tries to do good things because I think it is right, not because it makes me feel good. Calling atheists "HIGHLY narcissistic" just because you cant imagine them any other way is akin to the atheists who say theists are dumb. If you cant imagine how an atheist can do good deeds, doesnt it imply that you have more to learn about atheism? Or do you not see any examples of good things done by atheists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this interesting and I'm just gonna give my opinion on it. Your an athiest who believes in right and wrong? Has right and wrong been proven? Is there evidence? It's really just what you think, but why would you think that if there is no evidence to support that there is a right and wrong. Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge, so do you know that some of your beliefs of right and wrong come from the writings of man that say God 100% exist? And if you believe them about right and wrong , why not explore the possiblity of the latter?

This was my immediate thought, would love to hear opinions on this, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think the Bible has always existed? Have you ever read Plato or Aristotle or ANYTHING written by ancient Greeks, Romans, or anyone else?

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And no, your point wasn't extreme. It was just wrong. I really hope you aren't trying to make some grand, analagous point, because you are failing miserably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider it a failed attempt then

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And no, your point wasn't extreme. It was just wrong. I really hope you aren't trying to make some grand, analagous point, because you are failing miserably.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider it a failed attempt then

[/ QUOTE ]

Answer the challenging, thought-dependent questions posed to you in this thread, not just the snarky ones.

SitNHit

02-19-2007, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I understand the proscription against suicide in most major religions. But are most of you theists just sitting around, counting down the seconds, wishing that you could only cut your wrists? And if not, don't you understand how irrational you are being? You should be driving fast cars, jumping out of planes, intervening in drug deals gone bad, defending campsites from bear attacks, and so on. No matter how great your life is, no matter how much you love your family, these all equal NOTHING when compared to the infinite happiness that surely awaits you.

Does the Bible say no banana-picking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who are the Ad-Wizards who came up with that one.

That's one sentence. But I didn't read whole post so I did just jump to conclusions but I didn't understand that banana comment at the end in relation to the post. Maybe im overloading my brain more then its used to.. Remember, most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%...
:-)

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I understand the proscription against suicide in most major religions. But are most of you theists just sitting around, counting down the seconds, wishing that you could only cut your wrists? And if not, don't you understand how irrational you are being? You should be driving fast cars, jumping out of planes, intervening in drug deals gone bad, defending campsites from bear attacks, and so on. No matter how great your life is, no matter how much you love your family, these all equal NOTHING when compared to the infinite happiness that surely awaits you.

Does the Bible say no banana-picking?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who are the Ad-Wizards who came up with that one.

That's one sentence. But I didn't read whole post so I did just jump to conclusions but I didn't understand that banana comment at the end in relation to the post. Maybe im overloading my brain more then its used to.. Remember, most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%...
:-)

[/ QUOTE ]

Tne point was that banana picking is a notoriously dangerous profession. If all of the points you are trying to make are true, why aren't all theists outlandish risk-takers? Shouldn't you be itching to die? Every great and wonderful thing in your life is completely meaningless when compared to infinite happiness. Shouldn't you be pushing the envelope of what God would allow? Would you jump in front of a bullet to save a dog? Why not? Shouldn't you be looking for ANY opportunity to hasten your death?

arahant

02-19-2007, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought I cleared this up for you earlier. Right and wrong do NOT come from the Bible. The bible contains a codification of right and wrong, but it isn't the source. It's not like before the 10 commandents came along, everyone thought that killing people was hunky-dory.

madnak

02-19-2007, 10:59 PM

Is this guy really seriously as clueless as all of that? Sadly, I think he probably is. I'm not getting a strong "troll" read.

By the way vhawk, your posts lately have been excellent. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not so helpful.

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this guy really seriously as clueless as all of that? Sadly, I think he probably is. I'm not getting a strong "troll" read.

By the way vhawk, your posts lately have been excellent. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not so helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm in a post-test lull, so I've had more time to work on my chops. My new goal in life is to be the guy who sells universal health care to the small segment of Americans who think coherently and logically (I'll let politicians sell it to the rest) so I have a reason to work on my critical reasoning, and more importantly, critical argument skills.

Al68

02-19-2007, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My new goal in life is to be the guy who sells universal health care to the small segment of Americans who think coherently and logically

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume you're referring to libertarians here. Good luck with that! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

ChrisV

02-19-2007, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think its a safe assumption that a majority would agree with.... And I can already guess ur reply to this statement is , well a majority believes in the Bible, and that isnt true either. blah. gg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, my response is twofold... Firstly that there's no evidence beyond your opinion that that is what people actually think, and secondly that if they did think that, it wouldn't mean they were correct. Stereotyped beliefs don't have a great track record. Also, as chez points out, a majority of people do not believe in the Bible. That's your cultural bias talking. Only a third of people worldwide identify as Christians, and many of them are non-practicing, often with just a vague belief in a higher power. For instance, in Australia, where I live, 70% of people identify as Christians, but only 7.5% of the population attends church on a regular basis.

[ QUOTE ]
I find this interesting and I'm just gonna give my opinion on it. Your an athiest who believes in right and wrong? Has right and wrong been proven? Is there evidence?

[/ QUOTE ]

The basis of all morality is arbitrary. Secular humanists usually have an ethical system based on the happiness of others, some variant of utilitarianism. Your claim of a superior morality based on what it says in the Bible comes off somewhat empty to people who think it's just a book.

[ QUOTE ]
Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge, so do you know that some of your beliefs of right and wrong come from the writings of man that say God 100% exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrong I don't know where to begin. How did the ancient Greeks have such a developed ethical philosophy when they hadn't read the Bible? Do you really think that if the Bible weren't around you'd have no sense of right and wrong? The idea that you derive your morality wholly from scripture is demonstrably false. Take this infamous passage from Genesis (New International Version, 19:4-8):

[ QUOTE ]
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

[/ QUOTE ]

Lot is elsewhere portrayed as a righteous man. Do you think he acted morally here? If not, why not? By what method can you tell that this action is immoral whereas other stories in the Bible are moral lessons?

vhawk01

02-19-2007, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My new goal in life is to be the guy who sells universal health care to the small segment of Americans who think coherently and logically

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume you're referring to libertarians here. Good luck with that! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a libertarian and I have reasonable access to politicians and various movers and shakers. I am optimistic! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Schweitzer

02-20-2007, 12:25 AM

Going to get a bit off topic here but just wanted to clear up one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%...
:-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you are referring to the myth that we only use 10% of our brain. This is false: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

Also, for SitNHit (and others like him) I just wanted to say that I do not believe in a god of any form and I consider myself very moral. Of all of my friends (almost all of which believe in some sort of god) my one atheist friend and myself volunteer in many different ways regularly. We are both very nice people and do not need to rewarded in the afterlife in order to do good. My more religiously-inclined friends make no effort to do anything selfless despite the fact that they believe their eternal soul depends on what they do during this finite lifetime.

MuresanForMVP

02-20-2007, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im saying that it doesnt matter what I feel about it, it would be morally wrong to end whatever I have instored for the future. For someone who doesnt believe, it wouldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah? Does your own morality depend on some Superdaddy in the sky?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT...I don't need to read some book written thousands of years ago to tell me that I shouldn't kill someone or steal. I respect someone's right to believe in a religion, but to me that [censored] just seems so stupid, and full of such complete contradiction.

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 12:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im saying that it doesnt matter what I feel about it, it would be morally wrong to end whatever I have instored for the future. For someone who doesnt believe, it wouldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah? Does your own morality depend on some Superdaddy in the sky?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT...I don't need to read some book written thousands of years ago to tell me that I shouldn't kill someone or steal. I respect someone's right to believe in a religion, but to me that [censored] just seems so stupid, and full of such complete contradiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

SitNHit is obviously pretty naive. He isn't a troll though. He is trying to figure out why there are confusing things that happen, like atheists who don't kill themselves. In so doing, he is bound to be challenged on some of his beliefs that he might otherwise have gone his entire life treating as 'given' and 'normal.' Just look at his view on what % of people believe in the Bible or believe that atheists are narcissistic and immoral.

alphatmw

02-20-2007, 02:35 AM

btw i wonder how sitnhit's god would feel that he thinks life is so worthless that without the threat of eternal punishment, he wouldn't even bother living it out.

actually, the fact that sitnhit's life sucks so much that he would kill himself if not for his fear of hell makes me feel better. seriously, it sounds like his life really, really sucks.

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 02:43 AM

MidGe

02-20-2007, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Re: Those who don't believe in life after death - Why not Kill Yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

There seems to be less reasons to kill themselves for those who don't believe in afterlife than for those who do! Am I missing something here?

thylacine

02-20-2007, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Re: Those who don't believe in life after death - Why not Kill Yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

There seems to be less reasons to kill themselves for those who don't believe in afterlife than for those who do! Am I missing something here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No you have not missed anything. There is obviously a typo in the title. I have corrected it below.

[ QUOTE ]
Re: Those who do believe in life after death - Why not Kill Yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

dknightx

02-20-2007, 04:02 AM

i have a feeling that 50% (or more) of the population in non NA/european countries have no "reason" to live, meaning, they are in the "no life > bad life" category. not like that has much to do with this discussion, just a thought.

alphatmw

02-20-2007, 04:02 AM

yukoncpa

02-20-2007, 05:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
btw i wonder how sitnhit's god would feel that he thinks life is so worthless that without the threat of eternal punishment, he wouldn't even bother living it out.

actually, the fact that sitnhit's life sucks so much that he would kill himself if not for his fear of hell makes me feel better. seriously, it sounds like his life really, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Alpha,

Boy I hate responding, because whenever I respond to Sitnhit, I get chastised, but here goes anyway.
Sitnhit’s God rarely, indeed almost never, subjects his creations to eternal punishment ( he’s Mormon). Instead nearly everyone is rewarded in the afterlife with varying degrees of happiness ( or heaven ). Sitnhit merely finds it overwhelmingly sad to think that consciousness becomes extinct upon death, and can’t understand how atheists, as he perceives them, can cope with such a sad notion. Sitnhit I believe does believe that suicide is a grievous sin, but however, according to his belief, a person committing suicide will merely ( most likely ) achieve the telestial kingdom ( or the lowest kingdom of heaven ) which is akin to living a life on this earth. Nothing horrible, just a permanent absence from God.

Disclaimer - If I’m wrong about Mormon theology, it’s been a while. Sue me.

Lestat

02-20-2007, 06:38 AM

This kind of thinking (or lack thereof), always amazes me.

If there is no life after death, then life becomes much more precious. So the question is more easily handed back to you...

If you DO believe in life after death, why not just kill yourself now and get to your final destination? While you're at it, why not kill all your loved ones as well? After all, it's not like you guys are really gonna die, right? You'll live together forever in bliss. So why not go there right now? I mean today! If you really care about the people in your life, and want eternal bliss for yourself and them, you should seriously consider killing yourself and everyone you know. Immediately! Don't wait another second. Why take the chance that a loved one will commit a mortal sin before they die and go to hell? It's your duty to kill them now to make sure they get to heaven. Hurry!

yukoncpa

02-20-2007, 07:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This kind of thinking (or lack thereof), always amazes me.

If there is no life after death, then life becomes much more precious. So the question is more easily handed back to you...

If you DO believe in life after death, why not just kill yourself now and get to your final destination? While you're at it, why not kill all your loved ones as well? After all, it's not like you guys are really gonna die, right? You'll live together forever in bliss. So why not go there right now? I mean today! If you really care about the people in your life, and want eternal bliss for yourself and them, you should seriously consider killing yourself and everyone you know. Immediately! Don't wait another second. Why take the chance that a loved one will commit a mortal sin before they die and go to hell? It's your duty to kill them now to make sure they get to heaven. Hurry!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Lestat,

When I was 8 years old and well indoctrinated, I was cursed with a logical mind, a libido, a rebellious attitude, and also a bit of weirdness. I approached a little girl my own age and asked her to skip Sunday school. When I got her outside alone, I asked her if she would like to have sex. When she looked at me with a blank expression, I explained that sex is when we go behind the bushes and I put my pee-pee in your vaginee and pee. She looked at me with such horror that I tried to remedy the situation by explaining that afterwards I could slit her throat and then I would commit suicide, and we could meet in heaven. I actually remember thinking this was a good thing to say. Well she ran away and told her parents, who told my parents, and I received a severe beating, as usual. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 07:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Going to get a bit off topic here but just wanted to clear up one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%...
:-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you are referring to the myth that we only use 10% of our brain. This is false: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

Also, for SitNHit (and others like him) I just wanted to say that I do not believe in a god of any form and I consider myself very moral. Of all of my friends (almost all of which believe in some sort of god) my one atheist friend and myself volunteer in many different ways regularly. We are both very nice people and do not need to rewarded in the afterlife in order to do good. My more religiously-inclined friends make no effort to do anything selfless despite the fact that they believe their eternal soul depends on what they do during this finite lifetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how everything I say is being fact checked.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im saying that it doesnt matter what I feel about it, it would be morally wrong to end whatever I have instored for the future. For someone who doesnt believe, it wouldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah? Does your own morality depend on some Superdaddy in the sky?

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT...I don't need to read some book written thousands of years ago to tell me that I shouldn't kill someone or steal. I respect someone's right to believe in a religion, but to me that [censored] just seems so stupid, and full of such complete contradiction.

[/ QUOTE ]

SitNHit is obviously pretty naive. He isn't a troll though. He is trying to figure out why there are confusing things that happen, like atheists who don't kill themselves. In so doing, he is bound to be challenged on some of his beliefs that he might otherwise have gone his entire life treating as 'given' and 'normal.' Just look at his view on what % of people believe in the Bible or believe that atheists are narcissistic and immoral.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF your saying that I don't know every possible point of view there is to know, your right. Either do any of you, I assume, if you guys are not learning new things everyday, then sir , u must be a super genius. I'm not a troll, im just some 22 year old kid who has some questions and opinions that I should explore before I make them seem like fact to me. I have my beliefs, but that doesnt mean I shouldn't learn to be tolerant and understand others beliefs. Which is what im trying to do be starting this discussion. Now I only know what I know, which in comparison what there is to know in all history, etc is not alot. But how am I going to learn it? I can't spend the rest of my life reading books which is why these forums are nice. Since the only facts are thoese produced by a mans educated opinion, yours is as good as anybody elses.

I can't help that I believe in God and Jesus Christ and that Joseph Smith was a prophet, I had an experience that instilled in me that feeling that it was right and I just can't deny it live my life against that. But that is me.

I truly read and respect everyones opinion, although some responses seem to just be ignorant, just seems like that cause my beliefs go against yours. Anyone that is against your beliefs can be looked at as ignoring.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 08:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
btw i wonder how sitnhit's god would feel that he thinks life is so worthless that without the threat of eternal punishment, he wouldn't even bother living it out.

actually, the fact that sitnhit's life sucks so much that he would kill himself if not for his fear of hell makes me feel better. seriously, it sounds like his life really, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, good post, if your goal was to just try to bash me however you could. My point is, that if their is no point to our earthly life other then our impact on others on earth during that earthly life, then what does it matter how you view life as. It wouldn't matter. And I am talking from that point of view.

I view life as precious and beautiful and I also look at the hard parts as trials that I am being tested. Theists believe the hard parts are just hard parts and no reason other then to be hard.

There is a reason I go through a trial and I do my best to survive and overcome cause I know its a test, and I know after living through this life there is the afterlife and since I know the truth that the choices i make will effect my place there. Probably much easier to people to go through this life not knowing any better then to know, but also, if you were to go to a person and say would you like to hear your future, you would say yes, so I guess you can understand why manage.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 08:05 AM

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 08:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw i wonder how sitnhit's god would feel that he thinks life is so worthless that without the threat of eternal punishment, he wouldn't even bother living it out.

actually, the fact that sitnhit's life sucks so much that he would kill himself if not for his fear of hell makes me feel better. seriously, it sounds like his life really, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Alpha,

Boy I hate responding, because whenever I respond to Sitnhit, I get chastised, but here goes anyway.
Sitnhit’s God rarely, indeed almost never, subjects his creations to eternal punishment ( he’s Mormon). Instead nearly everyone is rewarded in the afterlife with varying degrees of happiness ( or heaven ). Sitnhit merely finds it overwhelmingly sad to think that consciousness becomes extinct upon death, and can’t understand how atheists, as he perceives them, can cope with such a sad notion. Sitnhit I believe does believe that suicide is a grievous sin, but however, according to his belief, a person committing suicide will merely ( most likely ) achieve the telestial kingdom ( or the lowest kingdom of heaven ) which is akin to living a life on this earth. Nothing horrible, just a permanent absence from God.

Disclaimer - If I’m wrong about Mormon theology, it’s been a while. Sue me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a good post , and im glad you took it as a discussion then an emotional type post.

Nobody knows what Gods judgements are going to be cause there could of been very traumatic events that led to someones decisions that wouldnt be fair to judge them on.

But most of us make our own decisions knowing what we are doing. So there are some people who kill themselves , knowing its wrong, etc and choose to do it. Not everybody is supposed to be in Heaven, cause there are just some bad souls. But we are getting too deep here. But nice post sir.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 08:11 AM

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This kind of thinking (or lack thereof), always amazes me.

If there is no life after death, then life becomes much more precious. So the question is more easily handed back to you...

If you DO believe in life after death, why not just kill yourself now and get to your final destination? While you're at it, why not kill all your loved ones as well? After all, it's not like you guys are really gonna die, right? You'll live together forever in bliss. So why not go there right now? I mean today! If you really care about the people in your life, and want eternal bliss for yourself and them, you should seriously consider killing yourself and everyone you know. Immediately! Don't wait another second. Why take the chance that a loved one will commit a mortal sin before they die and go to hell? It's your duty to kill them now to make sure they get to heaven. Hurry!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Lestat,

When I was 8 years old and well indoctrinated, I was cursed with a logical mind, a libido, a rebellious attitude, and also a bit of weirdness. I approached a little girl my own age and asked her to skip Sunday school. When I got her outside alone, I asked her if she would like to have sex. When she looked at me with a blank expression, I explained that sex is when we go behind the bushes and I put my pee-pee in your vaginee and pee. She looked at me with such horror that I tried to remedy the situation by explaining that afterwards I could slit her throat and then I would commit suicide, and we could meet in heaven. I actually remember thinking this was a good thing to say. Well she ran away and told her parents, who told my parents, and I received a severe beating, as usual. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you got issues farther then you imagined /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Phil153

02-20-2007, 08:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I find this interesting and I'm just gonna give my opinion on it. Your an athiest who believes in right and wrong? Has right and wrong been proven? Is there evidence? It's really just what you think, but why would you think that if there is no evidence to support that there is a right and wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
- The idea that all men are equal (or that no one is inherently qualified to judge who is more worthy than another), and
- Our innate mammalian understanding of reciprocity and mutually beneficial social interaction (also seen in dogs, horses, cattle, dolphins, gorillas, and other social animals), and
- The natural human desires for freedom and change,

are sufficient to devise a system of morals, ethics and laws.

[ QUOTE ]
[Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge, so do you know that some of your beliefs of right and wrong come from the writings of man that say God 100% exist? And if you believe them about right and wrong , why not explore the possiblity of the latter?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are very ignorant of history, and the world. Go read the history of non Western civilizations and get back to me when the penny drops.

Lestat

02-20-2007, 08:41 AM

Explain why my question to you is any more absurd. If anything, it makes much more sense for you to kill yourself. Those who are enlightened don't believe in fairy tales. To them, life is finite and why wouldn't they want to savor each and every day for as long as they can? You on the other hand, imagine you'll be going to a much more glorious magicland in the sky for the rest of eternity. So why should you care about this insignificant speck of time that you're here on earth?

bunny

02-20-2007, 09:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I find this interesting and I'm just gonna give my opinion on it. Your an athiest who believes in right and wrong? Has right and wrong been proven? Is there evidence?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have subjective evidence - some things feel right to me, some feel wrong - just like the bible feels right to you. I certainly dont think there has ever been a "proof" that some act is right, but I dont live my life according to what has been proved.

[ QUOTE ]
It's really just what you think, but why would you think that if there is no evidence to support that there is a right and wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
Other people have taught me right and wrong. I've read books about it and I've thought about it (quite a bit, in fact) the fact that violence is wrong seems as obvious to me as newton's laws of motion (for example) - what makes you think there's no evidence?

[ QUOTE ]
Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge,

[/ QUOTE ]
What makes you think this?

[ QUOTE ]
so do you know that some of your beliefs of right and wrong come from the writings of man that say God 100% exist? And if you believe them about right and wrong , why not explore the possiblity of the latter?

[/ QUOTE ]
I've explored the possibility of the latter - it doesnt seem like the best explanation of the world as I find it.

Magic_Man

02-20-2007, 10:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going to get a bit off topic here but just wanted to clear up one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%...
:-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you are referring to the myth that we only use 10% of our brain. This is false: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

Also, for SitNHit (and others like him) I just wanted to say that I do not believe in a god of any form and I consider myself very moral. Of all of my friends (almost all of which believe in some sort of god) my one atheist friend and myself volunteer in many different ways regularly. We are both very nice people and do not need to rewarded in the afterlife in order to do good. My more religiously-inclined friends make no effort to do anything selfless despite the fact that they believe their eternal soul depends on what they do during this finite lifetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how everything I say is being fact checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, on this forum we like to say things that are true. Many people that enjoy debate can come off as aggressive, but it is because they often WANT their beliefs to be challenged, so they challenge the beliefs of others. The point is to defend yourself in a logical, consistent, and convincing way. It's likely that you've never been in a debate as intense before, but it can be a very enlightening experience, as long as you remember to not take it as a personal attack against you. The sticky at the top of the forum has a bit to say about this as well. Welcome, and good luck.

Magic_Man

02-20-2007, 10:10 AM

Hopey

02-20-2007, 11:31 AM

revots33

02-20-2007, 11:34 AM

I enjoy these monthly athiests YSSCKY posts.

madnak

02-20-2007, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
When I was 8 years old and well indoctrinated, I was cursed with a logical mind, a libido, a rebellious attitude, and also a bit of weirdness. I approached a little girl my own age and asked her to skip Sunday school. When I got her outside alone, I asked her if she would like to have sex. When she looked at me with a blank expression, I explained that sex is when we go behind the bushes and I put my pee-pee in your vaginee and pee. She looked at me with such horror that I tried to remedy the situation by explaining that afterwards I could slit her throat and then I would commit suicide, and we could meet in heaven. I actually remember thinking this was a good thing to say. Well she ran away and told her parents, who told my parents, and I received a severe beating, as usual. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

alphatmw

02-20-2007, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I view life as precious and beautiful

[/ QUOTE ]no you don't. you either lied in a previous post or in this sentence. which one?

madnak

02-20-2007, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IF your saying that I don't know every possible point of view there is to know, your right. Either do any of you, I assume, if you guys are not learning new things everyday, then sir , u must be a super genius. I'm not a troll, im just some 22 year old kid who has some questions and opinions that I should explore before I make them seem like fact to me. I have my beliefs, but that doesnt mean I shouldn't learn to be tolerant and understand others beliefs. Which is what im trying to do be starting this discussion. Now I only know what I know, which in comparison what there is to know in all history, etc is not alot. But how am I going to learn it? I can't spend the rest of my life reading books which is why these forums are nice. Since the only facts are thoese produced by a mans educated opinion, yours is as good as anybody elses.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem isn't that you don't know every point of view, the problem is that you make statements of fact that are simply false. Many of the regulars on this forum are of "genius" IQ according to the popular standard. Most of us also intend to spend the rest of our lives reading books - in fact, many of us would consider it a curse to be deprived of our regular scholarship. This isn't meant to be an elitist jab, it's meant to illustrate two things: First, insulting our intellects just makes you seem shrill. Second, in general we have a strong respect for logic and truth. Most of us, even the Christians, also revere scientific inquiry (at least in theory).

Of course we all learn something new every day - that's exactly why we know that many of your assertions have been disproved. It's annoying to many of us that you continue making these assertions - if you have no data to back your facts up, don't present them as facts. It's considered impolite around here. To make matters worse, many of the myths you're propagating appear frequently on these forums. Some of us may appear angry and curt, but that's largely because we have already explained the points many times. Doing it again is frustrating. And you are hurling some insults that make us want to respond in kind. A good example is "Australia, nuff said." Thankfully Chris and bunny are very peaceful, but some Australians are just as patriotic about their country as you (I assume) are about the USA. If someone insulted the USA like that, it would definitely rub me the wrong way. Would it do the same for you? Then please refrain from making such statements.

And don't worry too much about the grammar - we are very casual and we respect all civil posters (well, most of us do). The problem with your spelling (this (http://spellcheck.net/) may help, by the way) is just that it can make it hard to interpret what you say. Most of the angry responses are really about other things - earlier posters who made similar statements, religious people who hurt us in the past, people who annoy us in everyday life... Don't take it too seriously.

I've said I'm frustrated at having to explain things frequently, but that's not your fault. So, I'm going to try to explain the points to you as clearly and civilly as I can (to be frank I do get angry when reading your posts, so I might slip a little):

[ QUOTE ]
If you beieve in an after-life then a basic moral principle would be to get their naturally cause anything unnatural would be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is both factually untrue and logically unsupported. First, some cultures that believe in the afterlife have had no such view. The ancient Mesopotamians and Akkadians are a good example - they believed that man and nature were hostile toward one another, but that man was subject to nature. They believed in an afterlife - everyone was sent to a gloomy hole in the ground where they ate ashes all day. In terms of logic, the premise "there is an afterlife" doesn't and can't lead directly to the conclusion "God exists and natural action is ideal." In fact, no single premise can lead to any conclusion that isn't identical (semantically or tautologically). A conclusion stems from at least one major and one minor premise. Sometimes these can be subtle or implicit, but when speaking with atheists you can't rely on acceptance of the implicit premises that you personally accept.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, assuming that the After Life is Heaven since I havent heard anybody believes we go to harry potter land or any other place.

If you believe in Heaven, you believe in God, you believe that killing yourself is a sin.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is incorrect. Many, many different kinds of afterlife have been accepted by various cultures. They vary from what we'd call "hells" to relatively neutral places to all kinds of "heavens," some of which are not associated with gods. Many people in the world today continue to believe in afterlives that have nothing to do with the Abrahamic tradition. And even many Jews don't believe in heaven the way you do. Also the idea of sin is hardly universal.

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I can't imagine an Athiest trying to be overly good and going out of their way to doing lots of good deeds in service soley cause it makes them feel good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I accept that you can't imagine it, but it's true. Atheists have made spectacular contributions. Donald Trump and Bill Gates are a recent example of atheists giving tens of billions (!) in humanitarian aid. Moreover, studies indicate that this is rather typical of atheists.

Part of why you may assume we don't donate or volunteer is because we don't feel the need to shout or brag about it. We don't tell people we volunteer and donate, and we don't tell the other volunteers about our atheism (unless it comes up naturally - and it's not infrequent for atheists to meet one another doing charity work). A lot of staying quiet is related to the fact that many people react with hostility to the statement "I am an atheist." Some of it may be that the sentimentalism is a bit embarrassing due to our highly rational demeanors. And even when it is a big deal, many people may still not know we're atheists - did you Bill Gates was an atheist before I told you?

By the way, atheists are much less likely than Christians to be criminals. This is a very solid fact because we have plenty of information about those in the criminal justice system - not only in the US but also in other countries, atheists are under represented.

[ QUOTE ]
I think 90% of people believe in a supreme being.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I appreciate the "I think," but the actual statistic is more like 55%. It is certainly no more than 70%. Most religions do not involve a supreme being. Hindu and Buddhism are examples. This actually applies to most of the Eastern religions. Also, raw atheists and agnostics make up ~15% of the world population, and that number is growing. There are at least 3 and more likely 4.5 times more people who don't believe in a supreme being than you have indicated. The Buddhists in particular (who do believe in an afterlife, sort of) are both atheistic and very highly compassionate. This link (http://www.regent.edu/general/library/subjects/divinity/statistics.cfm) presents many sources of information that may interest you.

[ QUOTE ]
Right and wrong comes from the Bible, that's how people determined right and wrong, and from that it became common knowledge

[/ QUOTE ]

If you believe science, right and wrong probably existed at least as early as the Neolithic, about 10,000 years ago. Morals have definitely existed since the beginning of Egyptian civilization, 5,000-6,000 years ago. The Bible was compiled no more than 3,000 years ago. Therefore, morality can't have come from the Bible. There are many theories in psychology, philosophy, and even biology about how and why morality developed. The favorite among atheists is that compassion was selected for because reciprocal altruism is a highly effective social strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been pointed out, but we all use our whole brains. If you're interested in learning more about the brain and about atheist morality, I recommend Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain by Sharon Begley. It sounds like a self-help book, but is really more a summary of some recent scientific findings about the brain and how they affect Buddhist tradition. It will give you a much stronger perspective on how some atheists think (I don't know if Begley is an atheist, but the Dalai Lama is).

If your goal is to learn more about our viewpoint, then I wish you luck. Keep reading the forum, especially what we say on threads that aren't about atheism, and you'll learn a lot. I know I do.

MaxWeiss

02-20-2007, 02:15 PM

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/7561/ahhhhhnz9.jpg

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 02:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw i wonder how sitnhit's god would feel that he thinks life is so worthless that without the threat of eternal punishment, he wouldn't even bother living it out.

actually, the fact that sitnhit's life sucks so much that he would kill himself if not for his fear of hell makes me feel better. seriously, it sounds like his life really, really sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am absolutely certain that if I believed I had met all the criteria to guarantee eternity in heaven and believed in the proscription against suicide, I would live the most dangerous, hazardous life allowable by scripture.

[/ QUOTE ]such a life probably includes many hours of bible study and marital sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Explain why my question to you is any more absurd. If anything, it makes much more sense for you to kill yourself. Those who are enlightened don't believe in fairy tales. To them, life is finite and why wouldn't they want to savor each and every day for as long as they can? You on the other hand, imagine you'll be going to a much more glorious magicland in the sky for the rest of eternity. So why should you care about this insignificant speck of time that you're here on earth?

[/ QUOTE ]

For you to even make that statement means there is no point for me replying with one.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Going to get a bit off topic here but just wanted to clear up one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, most of you use about 5% of ur brain and im just hitting 1%...
:-)

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you are referring to the myth that we only use 10% of our brain. This is false: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

Also, for SitNHit (and others like him) I just wanted to say that I do not believe in a god of any form and I consider myself very moral. Of all of my friends (almost all of which believe in some sort of god) my one atheist friend and myself volunteer in many different ways regularly. We are both very nice people and do not need to rewarded in the afterlife in order to do good. My more religiously-inclined friends make no effort to do anything selfless despite the fact that they believe their eternal soul depends on what they do during this finite lifetime.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love how everything I say is being fact checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, on this forum we like to say things that are true. Many people that enjoy debate can come off as aggressive, but it is because they often WANT their beliefs to be challenged, so they challenge the beliefs of others. The point is to defend yourself in a logical, consistent, and convincing way. It's likely that you've never been in a debate as intense before, but it can be a very enlightening experience, as long as you remember to not take it as a personal attack against you. The sticky at the top of the forum has a bit to say about this as well. Welcome, and good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obv this is like me talking into an Athiest meeting and having a discussion, prolly not the best place for a fair discussion, but prolly the place that needs it most, lol....

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 03:39 PM

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I view life as precious and beautiful

[/ QUOTE ]no you don't. you either lied in a previous post or in this sentence. which one?

[/ QUOTE ]

My question was for Athiest, not believers in Christ.

SitNHit

02-20-2007, 03:53 PM

That Australia comment was just a joke, I have friends who are from there and they are so whacked in the way they think that it was an inside joke that was hard for you to tell.

Your guys problem is you take everything as serious as a heart attack on the things that dont matter and not serious enough on the things that do.

Quit viewing everything as half empty and always in the worst possible way.

Atheist think faith is weakness. To each is own.

I am officially annoucing my retirement from this thread. Its been a learning experience. I think ill just question everything in the future and believe nothing else exist except some "scientist" has proven. Sad thing is, that is viewed as smart here, man, it is true htough, there is every type of person in this world, and I guess to them they make sense in whatever they want to believe.

My last statement will be, can you afford to dismiss what is obviously possible?, and to think so lowly of the your existance and the universe is interesting. And yes I can ignore the possibility that there is no God, cause there is no consequence, but the other way around if there is, then obviously there is a consequence.

I believe that God created the universe as a way to tell us without actually saying it, of course I exist, look at the universe, how big and brilliant and finite and infinite.

But I guess if the universe doesnt have an effect on you, nothing will. I guess thats what hopeless is.

Much respect and Love
Mike

Wubbie075

02-20-2007, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to gather up a group of people lets say 100 random, that believe that there is no God and that we evolved and that when we die we just go in the ground and it's the end. Why wouldnt they just kill themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was a teenager I was suicidal, and it was my atheism that saved my life. I was at a point in my life where I honestly believed the best I could hope for was to end up a homeless person. If I believed in any sort of afterlife I would likely be dead. But what I realized (thankfully, in time) was that I did not want things to just end, I wanted things to change. So I changed them.

Is my life perfect now? Not even close. Am I happy to have it? Absolutely.

I'd be very curious to see the figures of suicides by religion (or lack thereof).

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

That Australia comment was just a joke, I have friends who are from there and they are so whacked in the way they think that it was an inside joke that was hard for you to tell.

Your guys problem is you take everything as serious as a heart attack on the things that dont matter and not serious enough on the things that do.

Quit viewing everything as half empty and always in the worst possible way.

Atheist think faith is weakness. To each is own.

I am officially annoucing my retirement from this thread. Its been a learning experience. I think ill just question everything in the future and believe nothing else exist except once me know and laugh at someone else who posts it and fit in. Sad thing is, that is viewed as smart here, man, it is true, there are every type of person, and I guess to them they make sense.

My last statement will be, can you afford to dismiss what is obviously possible?, and to think so lowly of the your existance and the universe is interesting. And yes I can ignore the possibility that there is no God, cause there is no consequence, but the other way around if there is, then obviously there is a consequence.

I believe that God created the universe as a way to tell us without actually saying it, of course I exist, look at the universe, how big and brilliant and finite and infinite.

But I guess if the universe doesnt have an effect on you, nothing will. I guess thats what hopeless is.

Much respect and Love
Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this is like the Royal Flush of unintentionally hilarious SMP posts. First, he does the "I'm officially done with this thread (where the likelihood he posts in it again is >90%)" and then he manages to claim he learned something while condescendingly mocking everyone who tried to discuss anything with him.

AND HE EVEN MANAGES TO GET IN PASCAL'S WAGER!!! Forget all the spelling/grammar mistakes, this might be my new favorite post.

Lestat

02-20-2007, 04:13 PM

<font color="blue">For you to even make that statement means there is no point for me replying with one. </font>

I see. So it's ok for you to ask a non-believer why he doesn't kill himself over his world view, but you're going to get all offended and indignant when the same question is put to you (even if it is shown to logically makes more sense). I can see you're going to be a valuable contributor to this forum. Are you a gimmick account for siegfriedandroy?

Lestat

02-20-2007, 04:18 PM

kurto

02-20-2007, 04:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that God created the universe as a way to tell us without actually saying it, of course I exist, look at the universe, how big and brilliant and finite and infinite.

But I guess if the universe doesnt have an effect on you, nothing will. I guess thats what hopeless is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You act as if there's only two possibilities-- it has NO effect or it has the effect of proving the existence of God.

This was a good unintentionally funny post.

dknightx

02-20-2007, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you were to gather up a group of people lets say 100 random, that believe that there is no God and that we evolved and that when we die we just go in the ground and it's the end. Why wouldnt they just kill themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was a teenager I was suicidal, and it was my atheism that saved my life. I was at a point in my life where I honestly believed the best I could hope for was to end up a homeless person. If I believed in any sort of afterlife I would likely be dead. But what I realized (thankfully, in time) was that I did not want things to just end, I wanted things to change. So I changed them.

Is my life perfect now? Not even close. Am I happy to have it? Absolutely.

I'd be very curious to see the figures of suicides by religion (or lack thereof).

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

dknightx

02-20-2007, 05:19 PM

i would just like to point out again, that a lot of you are assuming that most of the world lives just as nicely and freely as you do. a lot of people live their lives everyday with no purpose but merely to survive.

not saying i agree with OP, just pointing out that its easy to say my life is worth living for when it actually is worth living for.

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i would just like to point out again, that a lot of you are assuming that most of the world lives just as nicely and freely as you do. a lot of people live their lives everyday with no purpose but merely to survive.

not saying i agree with OP, just pointing out that its easy to say my life is worth living for when it actually is worth living for.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I disagree with this statement. Just because their lives seem unhappy compared the standard to which you are accustomed doesn't mean that, if polled, anywhere NEAR a majority of people in the world would say that their life is not worth living.

And secondly, this has nothing to do with the OP really. Most of those miserable sacks are theists and believe in an afterlife, and believe in proscriptions against suicide.

dknightx

02-20-2007, 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would just like to point out again, that a lot of you are assuming that most of the world lives just as nicely and freely as you do. a lot of people live their lives everyday with no purpose but merely to survive.

not saying i agree with OP, just pointing out that its easy to say my life is worth living for when it actually is worth living for.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I disagree with this statement. Just because their lives seem unhappy compared the standard to which you are accustomed doesn't mean that, if polled, anywhere NEAR a majority of people in the world would say that their life is not worth living.

And secondly, this has nothing to do with the OP really. Most of those miserable sacks are theists and believe in an afterlife, and believe in proscriptions against suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess my point wasnt clear. Basically i'm saying that if your life (here in the NA or Europe) is terrible, at least you have the chance to improve your life. The same can't be said for a large majority of the world's population. Yes i've been to many 3rd world countries, and the "poor" people there are actually very happy considering their lack of material possessions. However, those who are unhappy about their situations can do very little to change it.

And i never said that people believe their life wasn't WORTH living, i just said a lot of people live day to day merely to survive. If they find worth in that, then thats the worth they have.

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i would just like to point out again, that a lot of you are assuming that most of the world lives just as nicely and freely as you do. a lot of people live their lives everyday with no purpose but merely to survive.

not saying i agree with OP, just pointing out that its easy to say my life is worth living for when it actually is worth living for.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I disagree with this statement. Just because their lives seem unhappy compared the standard to which you are accustomed doesn't mean that, if polled, anywhere NEAR a majority of people in the world would say that their life is not worth living.

And secondly, this has nothing to do with the OP really. Most of those miserable sacks are theists and believe in an afterlife, and believe in proscriptions against suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess my point wasnt clear. Basically i'm saying that if your life (here in the NA or Europe) is terrible, at least you have the chance to improve your life. The same can't be said for a large majority of the world's population. Yes i've been to many 3rd world countries, and the "poor" people there are actually very happy considering their lack of material possessions. However, those who are unhappy about their situations can do very little to change it.

And i never said that people believe their life wasn't WORTH living, i just said a lot of people live day to day merely to survive. If they find worth in that, then thats the worth they have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. There are 4 qualifications that the people need to meet in order to kill themselves and satisfy the OP's point. First, they need to be atheists. Second, they need to have miserable (negative value on the happiness scale?) lives, and third they need to have little to no prospects of improvement. The fourth consideration is that they must be AWARE of the second and third conditions. If all those are met, then, if they don't kill themselves, they are being silly, just as the OP is implying.

How many people do you think meet all these criteria, and then do not kill themselves? If the number is large, OP has a point, if it isn't, he is rambling about nothing.

CallMeIshmael

02-20-2007, 06:12 PM

Im requesting a San Francisco area IP check on OP

vhawk01

02-20-2007, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im requesting a San Francisco area IP check on OP

[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee you its not him.

TimWillTell

02-20-2007, 07:09 PM

I've got a huge instinct for survival; it's in my genes.
Killing myself goes directly against the way I am programed by these so-called genes.
I do however, am capable of putting my life in danger, fighting a bull, or driving 180 miles an hour on the freeway; because these activities don't conflict with the drive for survival.
So, and why don't you kill yourself?

madnak

02-20-2007, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your guys problem is you take everything as serious as a heart attack on the things that dont matter and not serious enough on the things that do.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you're saying is that we have different values. That is very true. If you want to judge us and call us bad people for that reason, that's your prerogative. But you do have the option of learning to appreciate values other than your own.

[ QUOTE ]
I think ill just question everything in the future

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no better way to live.

[ QUOTE ]
there is every type of person in this world, and I guess to them they make sense in whatever they want to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, there are a variety of people in this world. Some of them may have insights you don't. If you disagree, that's okay with me. It honestly is your loss.

[ QUOTE ]
And yes I can ignore the possibility that there is no God, cause there is no consequence, but the other way around if there is, then obviously there is a consequence.

[/ QUOTE ]

But God may think better of those who kill themselves, or those who are atheists (http://www.dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_019.htm).

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that God created the universe as a way to tell us without actually saying it, of course I exist, look at the universe, how big and brilliant and finite and infinite.

[/ QUOTE ]

That isn't the only way to perceive the awesomeness of the universe. Those who are most passionate about its beauty, the astrophysicists and astronomers, are very frequently atheists.

madnak

02-20-2007, 07:18 PM

Atheists are definitely more likely to off themselves. I don't think it necessarily has much to do with the OP's point, but it's true.

alphatmw

02-20-2007, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I view life as precious and beautiful

[/ QUOTE ]no you don't. you either lied in a previous post or in this sentence. which one?

[/ QUOTE ]

My question was for Athiest, not believers in Christ.

[/ QUOTE ]so atheists can't view life as precious and beautiful? how dumb are you?

Hopey

02-20-2007, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think ill just question everything in the future

[/ QUOTE ]

What's comical is that you think this is a *bad* thing.

Hopey

02-20-2007, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im requesting a San Francisco area IP check on OP

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless the troll you're thinking of has suffered a severe head injury of some sort, this isn't the same guy. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Piers

02-20-2007, 08:16 PM

I don’t kill myself because I don’t want to. More I don’t understand why I should want to /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Maybe not wanting to kill oneself is some sort of evolutionary advantage?

Prodigy54321

02-20-2007, 08:29 PM

Sharkey has devolved...he's now to the point where he's forgotten how to speak english /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ChrisV

02-20-2007, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And you are hurling some insults that make us want to respond in kind. A good example is "Australia, nuff said." Thankfully Chris and bunny are very peaceful, but some Australians are just as patriotic about their country as you (I assume) are about the USA. If someone insulted the USA like that, it would definitely rub me the wrong way.

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Enjoy! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2587661313510275113)

Note: The show this appeared on is (was?) kind of an Australian equivalent of The Daily Show.