High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews

[citanul]

I like to consider myself a bit of a gourmet. Perhaps "foodie" is more appropriate. I enjoy cooking, finding cool new restaurants around town before the crowds (and Time Out) make it impossible to get in the door, and a few times a year, eating something remarkable at a high-end restaurant. I'm sure there's many of you who do the same.

By high-end, I'd like to restrict discussion to places where you can very reasonably expect your bill for food only to be >$75 (pre tax and tip). The range of discussion may include things as "pedestrian" as a good steakhouse and things as "snooty" as Per Se.

I'd like to discuss what you expect before you walk in the door of any such place, what you look forward to, perhaps what you don't, and also hear reviews of specific places, and how they stacked up both to your expectations of that particular place and your personal concepts of high-end dining.

For instance, I expect the food to be excellently prepared, never have to send anything back, ever, the wait-staff to be knowledgable and good at their jobs, the space to be clean, etc.

There's also I think probably two main categories of such restaurants:

1) Serves food that everyone is likely to like/love everything they order. Traditional preparations, perhaps jazzed up or just prepared with super-great ingredients.

2) Serves food that they are pretty sure most diners will not really enjoy at least one part of their meal. Food tends to be more experimental or "experimental" or whatever the word is, and the menus tend to be ordered "as a menu" as opposed to as individual plates.

As examples:

A couple weekends ago I ate dinner at Spiaggia, a traditional Italian restaurant in Chicago, which somewhat routinely wins awards for things like "best restaurant in the midwest. When I walked in, I expected fantastic service, great surroundings, white tablecloths, fresh pasta, great wine list, and in general, the sort of filling Italian meal, with ingredients you normally can't find outside of Italy, that you don't expect to find outside of a nice place in Italy. I was not disappointed on any aspect of this. This would be a type 1 place, even though they do have complete menus for ordering, we ordered individual dishes.

Last year, I ate at Aureole in Las Vegas with a couple of other degen poker players. We expected semi-nightlife buzz to the place, women in cat-suits climbing a tower of wine, and somewhat more "experimental" food, with good service, obvious large wine selection, etc. What we got was significantly different. Though we ate at about 8:30pm on a weekend, the place was very quiet except for the bar area, there was no one climbing the tower as far as we could tell, and though we took abut 2.5 hours for dinner, the place was entirely empty when we left. Though the service was great, and the tablet-PC wine ordering is cool, there was at least one dish that when the waiter brought it to table he said "as a warning, almost no one likes all 3 of these things." (He was referring to a plate containing 3 preparations of tuna tartar, one rolled in chocolate (fairly disgusting). On the whole, a good meal, but clearly a different experience than Spiaggia.

So, which type of high-end food do you prefer? Are you open to both? What do you "get" out of the experience? What are some of your favorite high-end places?

[limon]

for what i would consider "high end" i expect more than i expect. manhattan does this much better than l.a. when you go to a place like gotham or babbo you just leave saying wow, i had no idea... when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent. when mario opens osteria mozza in l.a. in a few weeks well see if he brings the manhattan food experience to l.a.

[XXXNoahXXX]

Before I even consider the food, one of my primary expectations is the service will be impeccable and the server will be able to comment on pretty much all aspects of every meal. I never want to be at a high end restaurant and have a waiter that doesn't know exactly what an ingredient is, how something tastes, what goes well together, etc.

Our society has chosen that servers will be tipped not based upon length of meal, times they refilled our drinks, but solely on a percentage of the price of the food. I could spend near the same length of time eating at a family restaurant and pay $10 tip as at a high-end restaurant, paying $35 tip. Just as the food is more expensive because it is of a higher quality, the service is more expensive, and thus should be of a superior quality.

I have rarely been disappointed with the service, and I've even been wowed a few times with how much the server seemed to know about everything. Basically, if I'm paying a couple hundred for my girlfriend and I to eat, I want a waiter that is a professional, not some summer job teenager. I'm still a student myself, so my budget only allows a few of these dinners a year, so in addition to be very special occasions, they are also learning experiences. I don't want someone to bring food from the kitchen to my table, I want a guide on that journey of food exploration.

(Feel free to respond to this post, but please do not let this turn into a tipping thread, that's not what my post wss about.)

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
for what i would consider "high end" i expect more than i expect ... just leave saying wow, i had no idea...

[/ QUOTE ]

limon,

I feel very strongly about this. The meals that I qualify as "the best I've ever eaten" all have this "whoa, that was really great and (as you said) transcendent." If it was just some nice food, I don't get that. For example while you can spend a lot of money at a steakhouse, there's basically nothing that comes out of the kitchen that doesn't taste at least very close to what you expect. There's no surprises. I think that you nailed it though, when I pay a lot for "an Italian dinner" instead of just eating at a local fairly nice place, I'm expecting to get something on the lines of "well I hadn't had anything like that before, wow!"

Noah,

I definitely don't want to see this turn in to a tipping thread, but I'd like to address a couple issues:

-I don't think I've ever spent 5 hours in a family restaurant unless you count hanging around, drinking and watching a game "spending time." But I get your point. You could "eat dinner" and pay less to the server somewhere else, so the service should be damn good. I totally agree.

-In general most high-end places only hire people to wait tables who have good resumes, and have worked their way up the food world. The interview processes can be pretty ridiculous in terms of just taste recognition, knowledge, etc. The largest lack of knowledge I've sen at good places are:

"I'll get the sommelier to help you with the wine" and

"I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to taste that yet as it is new to the menu, but I have heard x from customers so far."

The only place that sticks out in my mind for the service having a pretty gaping flaw was at Charlie Trotter's. Our waiter saw and heard us commenting on the reviews/top 10 lists they have framed on the wall and talking about another restaurant and at some points stuck his head in to join the conversation. I thought this was pretty wildly inappropriate, but led to a couple of funny moments during dinner.

[Los Feliz Slim]

limon,

[ QUOTE ]
when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
By high-end, I'd like to restrict discussion to places where you can very reasonably expect your bill for food only to be >$75 (pre tax and tip).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really mean high end by this? You have restaurants that are not extraordinary at all in many European cities where you end up paying more (maybe it is cheaper in the US). At $75 I expect a good, nice meal, but not anything super special.

Up the limit to >$200 and then you can start to expect something. At $200 I expect:
-Attention. Quick service, but also waiter who not as default tries to get away from the table, but as default talks a bit about the food, what's going on with ingredients and such. A waiter who doesn't really try sell you anything or speed up the ordering process, you order whenever it suits you. Also not some pretensious [censored] who is more busy showing off his knowledge than actually making sure you have a great experience.
-Not nitty. If it gets into the $500-range or so including wine and drinks I like that they serve you some delicious snack while you wait for the appetizer, serve you a welcome drink etc. and do not put in on the bill. It is not because I am cheap, I can pay for it, just makes the atmosphere nicer, you get to try some small pieces of some exclusive food or drink without risking anything.
-Perfect ingredients, the food can be a bit too hot or a bit too cold or a bit too cooked or whatever for your taste, they aren't psychics, but the ingredients should be 100% perfect, for not doing this there is no excuse.
-Also I expect them to have relatively unique dishes, must be a chef who has spent much time finding some new combinations or something to put the food up one notch and also in combination with the waiter makes sure that the wholeness with wine, dishes and drinks you order and wine, dishes and drinks they served you anyway makes perfect. I.e. avoid the situation where you sit and drink some wine and then they serve you a new dish that doesn't suit that wine and then a new wine. Make sure I/we are at the right wine, then serve the food.
-Zero questions policy. Ok, I say I didn't want that dish, then bring it back and give me whatever I think I ordered. If I figure out that I would like to walk home instead of taking the taxi just cancel the taxi and pay the driver to shut up (I put an extra $20 tip for that anyway). Don't discuss what was said/done or defend yourself, I hold no grudge, just want to have a perfect night. In all, don't do anything such that destroys the harmony, leaving the door too long open so that it gets cold or whatever.

It has lived up to expectations in that price range, however in the $75 to $200 there have been plenty of disappointments, that's why I put the mark higher.

[ElSapo]

[ QUOTE ]
The largest lack of knowledge I've sen at good places are:

"I'll get the sommelier to help you with the wine" and

"I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to taste that yet as it is new to the menu, but I have heard x from customers so far."


[/ QUOTE ]

If the restaurant has a sommelier, I don't think this is a bad thing to say. But I firmly believe all servers should have tasted all dishes. At a minimum they should be able to describe the dish in depth (ingredients and preperation).

['Chair]

@ +$75/person (no tip, tax, drinks), I expect a pretty solid over all meal.

Service...
- I expect wait staff to know details about <u>all</u> dishes...intimate ones regarding where the food came from along with something about the preparation technique used by the chef.
- I expect them to be able to make recommendations on the wine (with reasons to support their recommendation) or call over the sommelier.
- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).
- I expect the servers to be friendly.
- I want to see that they are passionate about the food/wine they are serving.
- I expect them to bring out a new "tasting glass" if I order a second bottle of the same wine...or two new glasses should I change it up.

Food...
I expect to see a menu composed of innovative dishes that I have never had before. I expect everything to be cooked to perfection...and seasoned just right.

I prefer the timing to be a little on the slow side than too fast in regards to the speed that the courses are brought out. This involves communication between the front of the house and the back of the house...a good expediter goes a long way to making this happen.


I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[citanul]

El Sapo,

I agree to a point. Obviously situations can arise where things happen like there is a new dish on the menu that and the server has simply not had a chance.

Arfinn,

In the US, there just flat out aren't that many places you can find with expected $200 on just food. (This is just food, per diner.)

The menus at per se, NY, are $250.
Grand tasting menu at Moto, Chicago, $165.
Tour menu at Alina, Chicago, $195.
Babbo, NY, $70.

I'm sure there's a bunch of places that are quite expensive that I'm not remembering, but these are just a few places that are definitely "high end." While $75 might be too low for the US as well, it might not be, I dno. I wanted to leave the possibility that people could talk about things like a good steakhouse or a good fishmarket type restaurant, or many of the excellent sushi places out there. This old page (http://www.forbes.com/2005/10/05/cx_sb_1006featslide.html?thisSpeed=35000) (2005 Forbes) lists the "most expensive restaurants in the US." While it's clearly out of date, it lists alinea (prices above) at #2. Obviously many of these places also hit you pretty hard for a bottle or flight of wine, but that's sort of a user-defined price instead of menu price to eat food.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

Arfinn,

In the US, there just flat out aren't that many places you can find with expected $200 on just food. (This is just food, per diner.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I have never been to the US. It is probably a bit difficult to compare across countries, because if I eat a $50 food meal in Poland I expect it to be very good.

[NajdorfDefense]

I'm open to and eat at both, but prefer the 'best-in-class' to the more 'experimental' dining, for example Daniel &gt; WD-40. To me, Service is clearly the differentiating factor btw two great restaurants, once you get above a certain level of french food, or spanish, or italian, or chinese, it becomes very hard to differentiate btw the quality of a Jean-George, a Daniel, a Bouley, a Robuchon, a Keller, etc, unless you are a true gourmand. Decor is also a factor, but again at these places they are all done up so that may come down to personal taste - do you like Cafe Des Artistes or a per se, or the Four Seasons.

Daniel was the best dining experience I've ever had [2x.], whether in NYC, LV, LA, Philly, Barca or elsewhere. Marcus, the host, remembered me when we entered from one prior visit, knew exactly why we were there w/o being told again [birthday], the service was beyond exquisite, the waiters were incredibly attentive and yet invisible, they could write you a book on each dish on the menu. The food is rated 2nd best in all of NYC by Zagat's, so I'll just agree that it is flawless, the sommelier can answer any question about wine {I've been with oenophiles} and the dessert is simply the best I've ever tasted.
While the decor is the best in town, the service really makes it stand out. They must have like 4-6 people per table, not including everyone you don't see, of course, and never intrusive. Obviously, you can sit there all night and not feel hurried in any sense [not true of some places!].
Bonus: As we were approaching the coat-check, we met Daniel Boulud and told him how much we loved our dinners. He took us to the bar and wanted to know all about it, and had a drink with us before returning to the kitchen.

Other faves: Alain Ducasse, Le Bec-fin, Drolma.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

For not too expensive restaurant that has great standard I recommend this one in Oslo. Everything is perfect (or at least used to be, haven't been in Oslo for a year):

Dinner (http://www.dinner.no/)

[The Yugoslavian]

I don't think my lunch $$ is gonna be enough for you to get into these places, /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

How excited are you about finding a place that is under $75 but still delicious? Whenever I hear you talk about this topic I kinda get the feeling that part of what you're in it for is the "status" of having been to "impressive" restaurants.

On the other hand, I get the feeling someone like El D is interested very much in both. He wants to get cheap awesome food, medium expensive awesome food and the uber high status food as well. Is the deal simply that you already pwn at cheap good food and medium expensive good food?

Yugoslav
Who simply wants to be good at medium expensive good food, lol.

[fluffpop62]

[ QUOTE ]

- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).

I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[Roan]

One thing that I think a lot of high end joints lose track of is that I expect to be full at the end of dinner.

I lived in New Orleans for 4 years and one of my favorite things about the top places in NO is that you always left stuffed.

In NY, a few times I've stopped for a $2 slice of pizza on my way home from a $100 dinner.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
How excited are you about finding a place that is under $75 but still delicious? Whenever I hear you talk about this topic I kinda get the feeling that part of what you're in it for is the "status" of having been to "impressive" restaurants.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can obviously find excellent food &lt;$75. But still the best restaurants I have been to have been more expensive, but has something to do with the total atmosphere, more than simply the food. If it would be available for $20, then great. It is also a matter of priorities, save $3k on your purchases of car, furniture etc. and give you and your Mrs. some nights you will remember for life instead, it is much more happiness/$ in my opinion. Your pretentiousness radar should beep more on expensive watches and such, a douchebag is more likely to spend his money on that.

[citanul]

yugo,

i like all manner of food, and am defnitely not in to high end dining for any sort of checklist type behavior. many of my favorite restaurants are in the $15-$30 total food bill range. this just isn't a thread about those places. i enjoy going out to these high-end places for splurges, special occasions, random fridays if i'm lucky, etc, but as i said, they probably only happen a few times a year. the rest of the year i eat dinner most nights too, and usually even enjoy it.

fluff,

i hope you find answers to your question in this thread, as it was in part the question asked in the OP. i think we've seen a few common answers: service, ingredients, knowledge, details, food quality, preparation quality, uniqueness, to be shocked, entertained, etc. hopefully more answers from more people as we go along.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
limon,

[ QUOTE ]
when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, patina and grace are excellent, campanile and aoc as well, easy 9 out of 10 jar i would give 8.5. but i cant really say i've had a 10 in l.a. again places like gotham and babbo are just on another level. incredible creativity and all the little extras that fit perfectly w/ the meal.no 10's for me in vegas either but i have yet to visit joel rubichon.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

To get that Nirvana-moment where everything with the company, locale, food, wine is perfect, the 5 seconds where you realize how lucky you are to be living and how wonderful life at its best is.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).

I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the $75 number is including starters and dessert, not just the entree. In which case you have been to plenty of places that qualify...

[M2d]

are you talking &gt;75 if you order every course? my favorite bay area restaurants (oliveto's, postrio, piperade, etc) are easily under this if i eat normally (a salad or appetizer, main meal dessert), but might squeek by over the line if I get all courses. maybe i'm just a slob, but as far as service, food quality and, server knowledge, selection, and innovation, i can't find much wrong with these places.
otoh, the handfull of &gt;75 restaurants i've been to (french laundry, danko, etc) have had this as well, but also a certain something extra. maybe a closer attention to detail in the presentation, or a little more experimentation in using offbeat local ingredients in non-traditional manners.

since i had my son, though, i've been more into the double secret hole in the wall places.

[citanul]

Arfinn,

I think maybe there was a language barrier or something prior to your first post in this thread. I can't find a list of all that many places at all in the world that are close to $500 per diner, just for food. The premise was 1 person, just the food, no alcohol/drinks. If you can give me a few examples of these places you've had $500 meals, I'll stand corrected, but I think we're talking about the same places, honestly.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
Arfinn,

I think maybe there was a language barrier or something prior to your first post in this thread. I can't find a list of all that many places at all in the world that are close to $500 per diner, just for food. The premise was 1 person, just the food, no alcohol/drinks. If you can give me a few examples of these places you've had $500 meals, I'll stand corrected, but I think we're talking about the same places, honestly.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the $500 I included wine and drinks, reread /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the food is better, and to get that Nirvana-moment where everything with the company, locale, food, wine is perfect, the 5 seconds where you realize how lucky you are to be living and how wonderful life at its best is.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, the food is better

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, of course. But the two best food experiences, I have ever had was cheap. One is in fast food-joint in Oslo where it works a Japanese sushi chef who sometimes shows you that you should try this (probably when he has found that one special fish), he doesn't speak anything else than yes and no /images/graemlins/smile.gif and when he does it is just fantastic, no sushi restaurant I have ever been to beats that.

Other one is with my friend being drunk in Poland at 4am, walking through a forest a bit hungry and out of nowhere comes some guy and tells us that his wife is a great cook, so we go to some tent and eat different dishes until early morning, of some just 2-3 spoons to have space for everything and it was all fabolous, I still sometimes think it must have been a dream, too absurd to be true /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[El Diablo]

All,

All this discussion is great, but let's get some more reviews here!

So, general thoughts first.

The high-end restaurants that Cit is talking about are places that when it's all said and done are gonna be more like $125+/person restaurants, and often $150+ (of course wine can easily take this far higher). In the US, chef's tasting menus at high-end restaurants are generally $80-120. That's the kind of restaurant we're talking about in this thread.

So what do I want/expect:

Food: Main thing I want is to think that nothing put in front of me is so-so. Now, I might not like a certain taste, that is fine. But if they are serving chicken, I never want to be like, well OK that is just like the roasted chicken at that neighborhood rotisserie place.

Service: AM summed it up pretty well. I want the waiter to be attentive, but not intrusive. Let us control what's going on in the dinner. He should provide info, but not be pushy or pretentious. It's all about taking cues from us. Being knowledgeable about what to recommend based on asking us a few questions is huge. At a place that is not a fixed menu, being able to suggest the appropriate amount of food to order is very important.

Ambience: I don't want tables to be too close together. I don't want it to be too loud. I want all the little things to be right.

As for the styles cit described, I am a fan of both styles. The "best of class" restaurants where they do some style that exists at a lower price point, just really really well (places like Delmonico's or Craftsteak for steaks, Nobu for sushi, for example) or places that are more creative and the chef is going to town with a tasting menu highlighting all sorts of differnet foods/techniques. Some places fall sort of in the middle with a few courses that you mix and match between. I like them all.

Here are a few of the ones I've been to relatively recently that I'll review in this thread if nobody beats me to them.

Nobu (Vegas/NYC/London, sushi)
Dining Room at Ritz Carlton (SF, tasting menu)
Gary Danko (SF, hybrid)
Quince (SF, hybrid)
Delmonico's (Vegas, steak)
Craftsteak (NYC, steak)
Michael Mina (SF, tasting menu)

Of these, I was very impressed and highly recommend the first four. Craftsteak was very good, but only the steak was really noteworthy. The sides and starters were all very good, but did not blow us away like I expect at a high-end place. Michael Mina was a disappointment and the only one that I would not recommend.

[offTopic]

Masked Man,

I'm interested in hearing what you and others have to say about Gary Danko...it's high up on the list of places we plan on going to soon.

[7ontheline]

Citanul,

What did you like in Chicago? (I think we've had this conversation before in another thread, though maybe not so restricted to high-end stuff.)

I enjoyed Charlie Trotter's, although it was so hyped that when I went maybe I it couldn't quite meet expectations. That said, it was an excellent meal. I preferred Tru though. The restaurant itself seems more open and bright (Trotter's small house seems almost oppressive) and the food was better tasting. Trotter's food was a little more eclectic and lighter, Tru's a little more rich. The candy cart at the end of Tru's meal was fun. Service was excellent at both. One cool thing was that Trotter's gives you a tour of the kitchen/restaurant if you ask. Man, the kitchen is small considering how many people are cooking their butts off back there.

Arun's (high end Thai, for those not familiar) was very good but maybe not quite as transcendant as I would expect for the price. Maybe that's my bias though - being Asian, I like the down-home authentic type of Asian cooking, and Arun's is super-fancy royal Thai cuisine. Service not quite as polished as Trotter's/Tru.

I was not particularly impressed with Spiaggia - I felt that it was overpriced. The Italian food was not SO excellent that I felt it was worth the extra money over a nice (though inferior, of course) Italian place. Have you been to Alinea? Or Moto? (Since we're discussing experimental places)

[El Diablo]

The Dining Room at the Ritz Carlton (http://www.ritzcarlton.com/hotels/san_francisco/dining/venues/dining_room/default.asp)

Went here recently. The chef is Ron Siegel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Siegel). For high-end restaurant fans, here's his resume: cook at Aqua, cook at Daniel, sous-chef at French Laundry, chef Charles Nob Hill, chef Masa's. He also beat Sakai in the Japanese version of Iron Chef.

They have a few different options for menus ranging from three to nine courses. Menu (http://www.ritzcarlton.com/hotels/san_francisco/dining/venues/dining_room/menu.html)

We went with the salt and pepper tasting menu, where each course features a differnet type of salt and pepper used for seasoning.

You are seated and they offer you a cocktail or champagne before dinner, they have a nice chilled cart of champagnes to select from.

The decor is a tad stuffy, as this is an older Ritz that has not gotten the new-school hip remodel that some of the newer Ritz's have. It's not bad, just a little dated feeling. Also, because it is in a Ritz, the customers skew towards the old side, adding to a bit of the stuffy feeling. These are pretty minor issues, though. The chairs are nice and comfortable, the lighting is at a good level, the room is not noisy, and the tables are not too close.

Then about 4 of 5 amuse bouches (tiny pre-meal bites to whet your palate) are brought out one after another, they just kept coming. There was some soup, some caviar, a savory mousse, a couple others. One preparation that just blew me away was a smoked dish that was on top of a little plastic covered smoke-filled bowl. Tapping on the plastic released smoke, creating an incredibly seasoned bite.

Around this time the sommelier came by to suggest some wines we might like.

The courses were all very good. A couple of raw fish, foie gras, some lobster, duck breast, some cooked fish, steak, etc. In general, you get this type of mix, but the specific dishes are always changing. The lobster and pork belly combo was a real highlight, but everything was just delicious. The only minor complaint was that occassionally the pacing would be slightly off between courses, I am sure this is because of trying to keep multiple tables with the same tasting menu on the same schedule. This was never an issue of any significance, just could have been slightly more even.

The amount of food is very filling. There were substantial portions of everything. My friend could not finish her delicious steak course, so I had to help her out. Yum.

Sometimes the dishes just used the salt and pepper as flavor elements, but in a couple they really highlightest a special salt or pepper as a central element. Very cool theme.

After dinner had some espresso. Even though you are stuffed at this point, they bring by a tray with all sorts of little petit fours, mini cookies and cakes and tarts and cheesecakes and chocolates. You just point and pick whatever you want from there.

Dinner concludes and they give everyone a tiny little box with a couple of caramels in it as a little memento of your trip.

The whole dinner is 2.5 to 3 hours and you leave there feeling like it was an experience, not just a meal.

[El Diablo]

oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.

The last time I went there we sat at the bar and had the four course menu. If you get there early you can sit down at the bar and have the full menu, nice to know for those of us who aren't great at reserving in advance (Danko you generally need to reserve at least a couple of weeks in advance).

I think I got:

Seared Foie Gras w/ Caramelized Red Onions and Fuji Apples

Seared Sea Scallops (a differnet preparation than what is on the current website menu)

Cheese Course - highly recommend doing this at Danko. You each get to select three cheeses (this used to be four, weak) from an incredible selection of cheeses.

Dessert - I think for dessert we got the trio of creme brulee and either the chocolate-raspberry tart or chocolate souffle.

All the desserts I've had there are great. Actually, just about everything I've had there is amazing. I highly, highly recommend Gary Danko.

It is definitely high-end, very nice dining room, ambience, etc. However, it is not stuffy at all. More of a California-style high-end ambience, which is a little more modern feel than someplace like the Ritz or a traditional high-end French place.

[lapoker17]

i come from a family of fine dining psychos, but i'm pretty easy to please - at the same time i'm not often impressed.

there are only a few places i've eaten that i would consider memorable - and i've eaten at a lot of "name" spots:

the most amazing restaurant experience of my life occurred about 10 yrs ago at everest in chicago. i guess the place is fairly well known now, but back then it was not. it's located at the top of the chicago stock exchange building. back then, the loop area was dead at night - almost deserted. i remember we drove down an alley to a beat up looking garage door which magically opened and lead to a dingy parking lot. things weren't looking to good. we got into an equally unimpressive elevator and pressed 40. i was with some of my fine dining psycho relatives and could feel the tension building during our ascent. what was probably seconds before one of them pulled the emergency stop switch so we could reverse course, the elevator doors opened onto the most opulent dining room i had ever seen.

there were probably 15 tables max, and the space was large but warm. everything there was aesthetically perfect. the flowers, the silver, the plates, the glasses, the colors, the view. it was amazing.

the staff was attentive - almost too much so - and knowledgeable about EVERYTHING - which actually was kind of annoying. i really don't care where the mushrooms were grown . the whole thing was such a scene that it was kind of ridiculous - but it was at the same time, just awesome. not the casual "awesome" we use in everyday speech - but the awesome used to describe things like god and natural disasters. the food was excellent, but was merely a sidelight to the experience.

everest taught me my first real lesson in brand building. they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and executed it flawlessly. you could just tell that someone had probably spent a few days settling on what kind of matches they would offer, and which flowers communicated what they were about. a great experience.

another that comes to mind is a private men's club in richmond, va, called the commonwealth club. it's essentially a place where old white guys go to get away from their wives, but it boasts one of my favorite dining rooms anywhere. the service is PERFECT. invisible, but helpful. knowledgeable, but humble. and the food is phenomenal. fine dining with a slight southern flare.

the last is le bec fin in philadelphia. i think they produce the best meals in the world.

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.

['Chair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- I expect them to call me and FFK a cab should we require (currently don't have any friends that appreciate this level of dining).

I have yet to be disappointed at $75/plate...but that's only been about 6-7 times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

i honestly could not think of a place to go that would be this expensive - or an occasion. why do you and ffk go to places this expensive? is the food that much better? and i don't mean this to be a hijack but i'd like anyone with an explanation to answer. i think the food when we're paying ~$50 a person (predrinks etc) is fantastic, but i couldn't imagine eating enough to warrant it being more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure the $75 number is including starters and dessert, not just the entree. In which case you have been to plenty of places that qualify...

[/ QUOTE ]

Fluff and NL -
yeah...$75+ includes apps/salad/entree/desert or total cost of the tasting menu.

to put this in perspective...I've never spent $500+ on a meal for two including tip and wine...but then again I live in Atl and not NY, LV, CHI, or SF

[Claunchy]

I CALL DELMONICO VEGAS

Just gimme a little while to get it together.

[Claunchy]

This is sort of a trip report/review combo, because I'm in no way qualified to write a legit review.

Two Saturdays ago, fellow 2p2er rageotones, four of my other friends, my girlfriend (thinly veiled brag?), and I all went to Delmonico in Vegas for the first time. Our reservations were at 6; we would have liked them to be a bit later, but it was a Saturday night, so we took what we could get. Three of us got there a bit early, so we had a seat in the little lounge outside the restaurant.

I ordered a martini with Ciroc. The cocktail waitress asked me if I wanted regular or blue cheese olives in that. Of course I had to dry the blue cheese olives; both they and the martini were great. Our friend (the third one of the three of us) wasn't accustomed to a nice restaurant, so she tried to order a white zinfandel (LOL). They didn't have that obviously, but the waitress was very nice about it and recommended a Riesling which she liked a lot.

So the rest of our party shows up and we're seated almost immediately thereafter. They gave us a big round table, which is way superior to a rectangular table for conversational purposes, so that was awesome. We also had not one, not two, but THREE SERVERS. Wow.

So we decide to start off with some wine--something lighter to go with the appetizers and stuff. Their wine list is nothing short of intimidating at 80 pages, but we decide to go on the medium-low end because we're not super balla. So we got some $80 bottle of Pinot Noir, which was pretty good. Unfortunately I can't remember the names of any of the wines, and they don't have an online wine list to refresh my memory, so, sorry.

For appetizers we got the mozzarella bruchetta, the oysters bienville, and the foie gras. Everything was good, but the foie gras was unbelievable. I had never had it before--to be honest it always sounded gross to me--but now I'm hooked. Like a yummy piece of fat that falls apart in your mouth. Delish.

For entree I got the bone-in rib steak, which is supposedly like the standard thing to get there. It was excellent--done perfectly rare in the middle with the outside almost crisp. I also had a twice baked potato and split some creamed spinach with my friend, and both sides were very solid. By this point we're on bottle #2 -- a malbec. My favorite bottle of the night personally, but some were weirded out by the big chunks of sediment at the bottom.

Girlfriend got some special that came with a 5 oz. filet and some lobster claws. She thought it was kinda weird that they didn't bring any butter to go with the lobster, but she figured out why when she tasted it--you don't need it. Putting butter on this would be like putting A1 on their steaks. Apparently it comes from Nova Scotia where the water's colder than Maine, so it was extra sweet.

Bottle #3 was a cab. We went down to like $60 for the third bottle because we knew we'd stop being picky after a while.

Overall, this was the best restaurant experience I've ever had. The service was absolutely perfect; stuff just kinda showed up. You never thought "wow that was fast" but you never wondered what was taking so long either. Everything was perfectly in sync. Our main waitress was very personable, and even took time to discuss the merits of My Super Sweet Sixteen with us. A+.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
i come from a family of fine dining psychos, but i'm pretty easy to please - at the same time i'm not often impressed.

there are only a few places i've eaten that i would consider memorable - and i've eaten at a lot of "name" spots:

the most amazing restaurant experience of my life occurred about 10 yrs ago at everest in chicago. i guess the place is fairly well known now, but back then it was not. it's located at the top of the chicago stock exchange building. back then, the loop area was dead at night - almost deserted. i remember we drove down an alley to a beat up looking garage door which magically opened and lead to a dingy parking lot. things weren't looking to good. we got into an equally unimpressive elevator and pressed 40. i was with some of my fine dining psycho relatives and could feel the tension building during our ascent. what was probably seconds before one of them pulled the emergency stop switch so we could reverse course, the elevator doors opened onto the most opulent dining room i had ever seen.

there were probably 15 tables max, and the space was large but warm. everything there was aesthetically perfect. the flowers, the silver, the plates, the glasses, the colors, the view. it was amazing.

the staff was attentive - almost too much so - and knowledgeable about EVERYTHING - which actually was kind of annoying. i really don't care where the mushrooms were grown . the whole thing was such a scene that it was kind of ridiculous - but it was at the same time, just awesome. not the casual "awesome" we use in everyday speech - but the awesome used to describe things like god and natural disasters. the food was excellent, but was merely a sidelight to the experience.

everest taught me my first real lesson in brand building. they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and executed it flawlessly. you could just tell that someone had probably spent a few days settling on what kind of matches they would offer, and which flowers communicated what they were about. a great experience.

another that comes to mind is a private men's club in richmond, va, called the commonwealth club. it's essentially a place where old white guys go to get away from their wives, but it boasts one of my favorite dining rooms anywhere. the service is PERFECT. invisible, but helpful. knowledgeable, but humble. and the food is phenomenal. fine dining with a slight southern flare.

the last is le bec fin in philadelphia. i think they produce the best meals in the world.

i'm sure i'll think of a few more.

[/ QUOTE ]

le bec in philly is my wifes fav restuarant on the planet. she gets a $90 truffled risoto appetizer and bernard meets her at the table and says its better than sex w/ her husband (me)

[El Diablo]

Claunchy,

Nice review. Delmonico's in Vegas is a perfect example imo of non-stuffy high-end dining. It's nice and classic and classy, while at the same time not feeling old. It's lit at a nice level, not too bright but not such that you have to squint to read the menus by the candle. The only black mark for this restaurant is the bathrooms. The men's is a pretty small restroom that is tucked in the back and is fine, but I expect it to be more perfect at a place like this. Service, as you mentioned, is great. You didn't mention one of my favorite touches at this and some other high end restaurants, how everyone gets their plate put on the table at the exact same time.

http://www.venetian.com/dining/menu_delmonicodinner.cfm

You really can't go wrong in the apps and soup/salad section. My personal favorites are the foie gras, the wilted spinach/fried mozzarella (basically the opposite of a salad), and tomato/onions/blue cheese plate.

For dinner the bone-in ribeye is definitely the way to go.

Every dessert I've tried has been great too.

[ElSapo]

I think this is probably a really important topic, because it speaks to so much of what is a restaurant dining experience. Whenever I read a restaurant review, I do a little (and obvious) comparison -- the tone of the review versus the final rating. I read the Washington Post because that's where I live, and often you'll see reviews that are pretty damn positive - and yet the restaurant gets maybe 1-star or 1.5-stars, or something.

At first, that seems off. The food was great, the service was great, and they get 1 star? And then you start to think about what the restaurant is, beyond the food. The kind of experience they aspire to give, what they actually give, and so on. Aspirations and intentions become really important.

If that was off topic, I didn't mean it to be. I think considering what a restaurant is trying to do, and what you want, is vital.

Personally, I love doing pre-fixe/tasting menus. This is the distinction for me when I go to a new place - me ordering a la carte is nice, but the chef saying "this is what I can do" is what can often make the meal a memorable ocassion. I hate paying $75/head for a boring but decent meal; I don't mind paying $200 if I'm going to be amazed.

Most of all, I want restaurants to push both what I know and what they can do.

[citanul]

7ontheline,

[ QUOTE ]
I enjoyed Charlie Trotter's, although it was so hyped that when I went maybe I it couldn't quite meet expectations. That said, it was an excellent meal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my first trip to Trotter's suffered a little from the same problem. I also agree that the space lacks a certain amount of happiness and brightness. When I fineshed my meals at Trotter's, I was still a bit hungry, not much, just a little. I thought for the most part the service was absolutely amazing, the kitchen is great - and a fine example of Trotter's OCDish behavior. The problem I had with Trotter's was that there was almost never enough of anything. The idea of having many many bites of lots of stuff, each good, is great, but at this restaurant I kept finding myself wishing that there had been say, 6 bites of veal instead of 2 or 1. Everything was obvoiusly excellent, and everything tasted great (very few risks taken) but it lacked a certain amount of wow as compared to the price, notoriety, etc. I think I've got the menu from Trotter's somewhere, but I doubt I can find it =(

[ QUOTE ]
I preferred Tru though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wholeheartedly agree. Like you said, the food at Trotter's is light. The food at Tru is the opposite. If you were impressed by the kitchen at Trotter's, the kitchen at Tru will blow you away - probably 10 times as large, with a staging area the same size as Trotter's' kitchen. On my first visit I sat at the Chef's table, which is in back of the kitchen, and can seat up to I think 6. (Trotter's has a Kitchen table that seats up to 4 I believe.) There's more courses in the Kitchen, and everything is rich, and the portions tend not to be small. I found myself near struggling by the end, but that was was I think because we were taking full advantage of their offer to eat as much dessert as we wanted. I've got a copy of the menu from Tru in my office, and I'll probably write it up when I get a chance. I just think people should know that they're going to be in a bit of trouble for finishing their 12 course meal when the 3rd course rolls out and it's a pint of lobster rissoto.

I have to say that I disagree about Spiaggia, but I can understand, definitely. I think that Italian is probably the cuisine that it's hardest to "feel" the difference between medium-high-end and high-end. Once you've got good handmade pasta and fresh ingredients well prepared, the differences are definitely subtle when existent. If you were mostly unhappy with the price, I definitely suggest the cafe next door which is much less expensive, and excellent food.

I've been to alinea, was incredibly impressed, and will post a review later in the thread when I get time. I'll say now that it was almost definitely the best meal I've ever eaten.

[fluffpop62]

ok, I didn't realize that people ate their own individual appetizers/salads/desserts. how do you fit all that in your stomachs?!

[limon]

"You didn't mention one of my favorite touches at this and some other high end restaurants, how everyone gets their plate put on the table at the exact same time."

this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]


this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to the southern U.S. Not exactly the paragon of classic fine dining culture, restaurants like Commander's Palace notwithstanding.

[PITTM]

el d,

looking at the menu for the ritz i was expecting the prices to be about 2x what they are. this looks quite affordable, i will probably hit that up sometime, you would actually put it above craftsteak? having an ex french laundry sous chef is quite impressive.

[El Diablo]

PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.

BTW, you may have noticed there's no menu for the nine-course tasting menu. For that one you just sit back and enjoy, not knowing what he's going to send out. However, the theme is similar to the other ones in that you'll get a nice balanced mix of Japanese sushi themed dishes, some fish, some red meat, some other meat, etc. If you go as a couple, each of you will get a different plate each course. And like the other ones, in addition to the nine courses, you'll get a number of plates of amuse bouches to start.

[firstyearclay]

I will start with reviews on N9ne and Nove.

N9ne tomorrow.

fyc

[El Diablo]

limon,

Delmonico Steakhouse in Vegas is one of Emeril's restaurants. He was executive chef at Commander's Palace for a number of years.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
I will start with reviews on N9ne and Nove.

N9ne tomorrow.

fyc

[/ QUOTE ]

if n9ne is the way you spell the one at the palms, that was my favorite dining experience ever. but i havent been to any places quite as fancy as most of the ones in this thread. also, before i was 21 i was really easy to please because any place that would serve me without carding started off at like 7 out of 10.

[Banks2334]

One of my favorite chef/authors is Anthony Bourdain. In his book A Cook's Tour, he does a good job describing what an experience at Thomas Keller's French Laundry is like. Keller gives some insight into what he is trying to accomplish and that is to create a memory. A memory that when the person goes somewhere else, they will say "This remeinds me of the French Laundry". Bourdain goes on to write-

Memory-that's a powerful tool in any chef's kit. Used skillfully, it can be devastatingly effective. I don't know of any other chef who can pull it off so successfully. When you're eating a four-star meal in one of the worlds best restaurants, and tiny, almost subliminal suggestions keep drawing you back to the grilled cheese mom used to make you on rainy days, your first trip to Baskin Robbins, or the first brasserie meal you had in France, you can't help- even the most cynical of us- but be charmed and lulled into a state of blissful submission. It's good enough when a dish somehow reminds you of a cherished moment, a fondly remembered taste from years past. When those expectations and preconceptions are then routinely exceeded, you find yourself happily surprised.

[ElSapo]

I thought I'd compare two recent experiences from Washingtno, D.C., which sometimes gets overlooked as a city with great restaurants.

My girlfriend and I ate at Citronelle, the Michel Richard restaurant in Georgetown. There are four restaurants in the D.C. area generally thought to be a true four-star experience, and this is one of them.

The food seems to step above "food" and walks easily into the realm of art. We did a three-course tasting menu that was about $90 per person (before wine) and the restaurant also offers a $160 per person menu for secen courses.

The dishes ranged from something done in a more "traditional" style, but fantastically -- duck two ways, for instance, cooked perfectly but with a relatively simple plating. Or a dish they call the "surf 'n turf moasaic" which used thin slices of carpaccio (eel, beef, pepper, tuna, beet and so on... ) to turn the plate into a stained glass window. The most stunning plate I've ever been served, and I was amazed to find out later the dish originated as a way to use scrap.

Service was flawless except for a misstep at the end — we ordered a coffee that went to the wrong table.

The wine list ranges from about $60 to $5,000, but it's weighted around the $100-range and seems to have a lot of good value on the lower end. They have a "coffee list" which struck me as a really nice touch — the downside, was that at the time it listed only one coffee.

All total the bill ran somewhere over $400 after drinks and tip and more drinks and tax and so on. Frankly, I felt a little out of my element here and wasn't 100 percent comfortable but I think that's mostly because the place has so much hype surrounding it. It was an amazing experience - Richard seems to be a very playful chef who is known for making one thing that looks like something else: using, say, mozarella and yellow tomato to make what looks like a hard boiled egg. Touches like this elevate the meal.

On the flip side...

Shortly after we ate at Citronelle, my girlfriend and I ate at Obelisk -- a really small place near Dupont Circle. Chef Peter Pastan offers a five-course meal for $65; his food is considered "Italian New American," whatever that means.

Obelisk is a great contrast to Citronelle's formality - tiny room, smaller cost, less flare. Pastan seems to do as little as possible with his ingredients, but what he does is amazing.

The meal starts with an Italian anti pasti that goes six dishes: light cow's milk cheese, lightly topped with olive oil. A kind of meat, "like bologna, but better," the waitress told me, and it was delicious and light. A bean salad with crab meat, some sort of croquette, and so on...

Second course is a pasta course with three choices; the pasta is all made in-house.

Third is a "main" course that usually involves meat: I opted for the grilled pork that had been brined with salt, sugar and star anise - this was amazing. The taste had a sort of shape and texture to it, and by the next weekend I was trying to brine my own chops in anise.

Fourth is a cheese and fig course - three cheeses, sweet fig jam. Desert was a couple of choices including strawberries over vanilla ice cream with balsamic vinegar. I'd never had this before, but it was amazing.

Total bill ran $235, and it just seemed like such a great experience and value - especially when compared with Citronelle.

Pastan is not Richard, and doesn't claim to be. So much of what he does, he does by doing so little. But the food was really fantastic, the restaurant understated and the service was excellent (the servers in both places knew the menu perfectly).

On the one hand, I don't think you can compare the two places. They have completely different aspirations and deliver very different experiences. Citronelle met expectations, for sure; but Obelisk crushed my expectations, and now I can't wait to go back.

Some restaurants, I think you go to be wowed — the chef is offering a performance as much as a meal. I think that's the direction high-end dining has gone in the last few years. The New York Times had a great column by Frank Bruni on this recently... bruni's column (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/dining/24note.html?ex=1172120400&amp;en=8c89e354bfa144e5&amp;ei=5 070)

...I agree with some of it, but don't have the same perspective. It's a very NYC-based column, for sure.

Just some thoughts...

[govman6767]

Review,

Before I left for Iraq me and the girl decided to make reservations for the newly renovated restaraunt on top of the Space Needle..... (Picture top of the world type rest.)

Final dinner tab was 300 with tip.

App. I had the Kobe Beef Strips (Outstanding beyond all belief) 20 bucks (Small portions)

My girl had the Crab cakes 25 bucks.... Bigger portion. I did not taste but my girl said it was the best she had ever had.

Dinner.

My girl had Lobster fettuchini type meal and it was great 50 bucks or so.

I had the 8 oz Filet Migenon with a potato WRAPPED in a bacon strip. I can say with no ego it was the best steak I ever had.

They say the new chef they hired for the grand reopening is one of the top 75 in the world.

The waiters were the best I've ever had water never got to 3/4ths of a glass.

The View is awsome (not as good as vegas view) but still great.

The only problem I had was the menu was WAYYYYYYY TOO SMALL if they did not have the steak I would have not had anything to eat. (I'm not a big seafood fan) Though my girl was in heaven.

Also the light at our table was a bit too bright and tables not made for FAT PPL /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Other than that I would say this was one of my best dining experiences ever.

The wait staff said since they just reopened they will have growing pains.... (Tables and lights etc) but they even gave you a survey to fill out on the cook and staff.

Reservations were required but you get a free ride to top of space needle.

Top notch.... Top Notch

[hyde]

I spent 20 years in the restaurant industry. I am one picky bastard. I am personally drawn to country atmosphere. I have not enjoyed my New York 'fine' dining experiences.

The White Barn Inn in Kennebunk Maine. The finest atmosphere ever. The barn must be 150 years old. Beautiful and unusual antiques adorn the lofts. Lots of wood everywhere. The tables are well placed for privacy, the lighting perfect. Too many places either require a lantern to read the menu or sunglasses. The owner pays attention to detail like no other restaurant I have been to.
The owner instructs his staff that the customer experience is theater. Perfect awareness of customer status, while absolutely non-intrusive. The pacing is perfect, always. The simultaneous service is a nice touch. As with all first class dining, you leave feeling satisfied, not full.

The Jackson House in Woodstock Vermont. The finest meal ever. I chose the 13 course chefs' something or other. ($105).
The dining room manager explained each course as it came to the table. He had to. There were some strange things I was sure I was not going to like.....unusual combinations that just didn't sound right( I wish I could recall details, but it was a couple years ago). Every dish was incredible, the blending of ingredients not usually associated were just plain great. Again, the portions were such that we left satisfied, not full.

The Longhorn Steak House, everywhere. They have a fried cheesecake with ice cream, whipped cream, strawberries...JHC what a tasty artery clogger.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.


[/ QUOTE ]

wait, after looking at the ron siegel wiki i realized he was the awesome chef who won the lobster battle on iron chef. that guy ruled. i will be making reservations for the ritz as soon as i find someone to go with.

[guids]

your first trip to Baskin Robbins





thats a great line.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to the southern U.S. Not exactly the paragon of classic fine dining culture, restaurants like Commander's Palace notwithstanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would disagree w/ you on this. service at private clubs and many great public establishments in the south is attentive bordering on ridiculous. many times i have thought they were going try to give me a slave in a doggy bag to take home. its embarassing, the south is another planet.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
limon,

[ QUOTE ]
when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, patina and grace are excellent, campanile and aoc as well, easy 9 out of 10 jar i would give 8.5. but i cant really say i've had a 10 in l.a. again places like gotham and babbo are just on another level. incredible creativity and all the little extras that fit perfectly w/ the meal.no 10's for me in vegas either but i have yet to visit joel rubichon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't been to Grace yet, really want to check it out. I think Campanile is the closest I've had to a "10" meal in LA. Jar is excellent and just introduced a fantastic oxtail entree.

Here's a review of AOC I posted a while back in OOT. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=exchange&amp;Number=5096929&amp;S earchpage=1&amp;Main=5096929&amp;Words=%26quot%3B+AOC++Alo ysius&amp;topic=&amp;Search=true#Post5096929)

One perfect meal I've had was at Montrachet in Tribeca.

-Al

[citanul]

alinea (http://www.alinea-restaurant.com/), Chicago, 2006
Tasting Menu: $135, Tour Menu: $195
Paired wine with the tour ~$175, chance to upgrade a couple glasses, extra ~$25

First off I'd like to just say that there's no chance my review is going to compare to any of the gillion other reviews that are out there and googlable. It will share my experience though as best I can.

The first surprise we got from alinea was that it was inconspicuous enough from the outside that our cabby had to loop around the block because he missed it the first time. Located basically in a yuppy shopping neighborhood, the reworked townhouse sort of feel doesn't really shock from the street.
street view image (http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/1228/streetwf3.jpg)

That changes the second you walk in the door though. All doubts that maybe you're in the wrong place are quickly gone. The space is definitely more contrived than Trotter's, but also much sexier, and though it lacks the museum showpieces of Tru, it doesn't suffer from it.

entryway image (http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/8576/entrancelo7.jpg)

After ditching our coats we were led to our heavy (I think) mahogany table with large comfortable chairs. No tablecloths.

We each had a great glass of champagne (we were celebrating, after-all), and when we were comfortably started on that glass, the waiter came back to talk to us about the menu. Since the seating times for the two menus are different by a lot they prefer if you tell them which you'll prefer ahead of time, but it's not like they'll kick you out for changing your mind. We went ahead with the 24 course Tour Menu, got the paired wine, and splurged a tiny little bit extra to upgrade the wines. This meant getting 3 or 4 of the glasses changed out for truly rare things that otherwise we might never taste, so it was an obvious choice. (Not that the other wine selections were common or anything.) In total wine service was 13 pours beyond our original champagne.

I don't know if I can do a plate by plate review, so I'll hit some highlights and then maybe a lowlight or something:

Hot Potato
hot potato image (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6451/hotpotatoqh8.jpg)
Was the opener and one of the big stars of the meal. Served with cold potato, trufle, parmesan, and a rose champagne, it set the perfect tone. Many of the dishes are served on plates or utensils created specifically for the restaurant or that dish. The meal mixed well between flavor combinations that are obvious, well liked, and classic, done well - like this dish, and plates that featured either or both new and interesting flavor combinations and ingredients you rarely see used.

Another star for me was the Pear
pear image (http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3495/pearxe6.jpg)
Served with celery leaf &amp; branch, and curry. This dish is actually a sphere of pear juice, wrapped in an incredibly thin layer of cocoa butter, rolled in a coating of curry. Eaten as a shot, when it hits your tongue, the whole thing shatters and give you a great "wow." Asking the waiter how this was done/if I could do it at home was a lot of fun.

Several other plates really were impressive both in taste and in presentation:

Bass, with vanilla and artichoke, served on a plate rested on top of a pillow filled with orange scented air, so it deflates and pushes orange scent was inventive and really tasty.

Granola with saffron, served in a rosewater envelope (I didn't know that rosewater could be made solid, let alone in to an envelope) was I felt a bit out of place because well, though tasty and cool (served hanging from a wire) I was almost looking forward to the bacon hanging on a wire i'd heard about, and well, it's granola in the middle of dinner?

Other sort of misses but sort of nots for me included:

Skate (http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/66/skateto1.jpg) with caper lemon and brown butter powders. I just though it was too much powders. Very tasty, again, pretty interesting that you can make these things powders, but it was also pretty easy to not get the amount of powder you wanted with your bite of skate.

Asparagus with egg yolk drops (http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/3775/eggdropsfm3.jpg). Made by dropping individual drops of egg yolk into I think just water, and cooking incredibly briefly, the drops were interesting but a little weird and rubbery at the same time. Not a favorite. I think that it's reasonable to have 2 or so out of 24 courses that you're personally not a fan of though, and since the skate still tasted good, and the egg drops were less bad than "that's just weird" I wasn't too sad.

To those thinking maybe the meal was a bit froofy, other courses unpictured and undiagnosed included:

Bison, Lobster, Kobe Beef, Foie Gras. All of which were truly excellent, and inventive (like the Foie Gras served with hibiscus, licorice, and blueberry soda). Sadly the Foie Gras is gone at the moment due to idiotic city-wide bans.

For more pictures and more review, (since I've been using this guy's pics already anyway) this guy (http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=83016), over at a foodie messageboard went at a time when they were serving many of the same dishes I enjoyed, and took a bunch of pictures. alinea's website also has a gallery of some of their work and the interior of the restaurant.

The service was amazing, our waiter was only working with one table in the room we were sitting in, and was assisted by 2 guys who carried plates in to the room, a guy who made sure you always have the right utensils, the sommelier- who was absolutely amazing and came to introduce each new glass of wine we were given and ask about our impressions of previous glasses, and appeared to be able to do this with every table in the restaurant, as well as a couple of other miscellanious helpers. They were never intrusive, always there when we wanted them, and obviously did the little things like having your coat ready when you wanted it, having a cab ready when you step out the door, etc.

The restaurant's decor was brilliant, and the only regret I had the whole evening is that even though there was plenty of space between tables, we could hear the couple at the next table: "Oh no, I don't eat eggplant, asparagus, beef, fish, granola, yogurt, green vegetables, meats, etc, so just make me an entirely different menu." Yeah, that guy got his money's worth with his trophy wife...

Total tab for 2 was somewhere between $1100 and $1200. Dinner can be done far, far less expensively though.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
limon,

Delmonico Steakhouse in Vegas is one of Emeril's restaurants. He was executive chef at Commander's Palace for a number of years.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i know. thats what i was getting at.

[firstyearclay]

Here is a cliff notes background on my experience. I graduated Johnson and Wales University in Providence, Rhode Island with a degree in Hotel and Restaurant Management. I have ordered food from purveyors, prepped, cooked, expedited, served, tended bar, bounced and cleaned at crappy bars up to 5 star restaurants. In no way do I consider myself a Chef, Writer, or expert in the restaurant field; however I do consider my taste and experiences to be unique.

I have been using Zagat for a long time as a base for finding restaurants in new cities. Although, I believe they are politically backed, I do think they are a good resource for learning about restaurants in most cities.

For this review, I will be talking about a restaurant in the Palms called, N9ne Steakhouse in Las Vegas.

My first experience at N9ne was actually in early 2006. It was a part of a week long birthday experience for me and a few friends. One of my good friends, Geno Bernardo, who is the Executive Chef @ Nove in the Fantasy Tower in the Palms, was the #2 at N9ne for about a year. He encouraged me to check it out as he thought I would like the food as well as experience.

I arrived at the restaurant with 2 of my close friends and proceeded over to the table. You are IMMEDIATELY taken in by the experience of N9ne. Its not uncommon to hear techno or rock n’ roll playing at a moderate level throughout the restaurant along with voices of 20-40 somethings’ talking up the evening. My first thought was wow, we are going to a club for dinner?

I was taken over to my seat which was placed right in the middle of the restaurant facing the center bar. The place is very well designed. When you come into N9ne late, you have to fight off the club crowd over at Rain (sometimes asking for bouncer assistance to get through the lines), then proceed to the left to the hostess stand. The hostess’ are all stunning! Proceed through into the restaurant and you have a long bar on the right that is jam packed with over-dressed movie star wanna-be’s. I mean this is Vegas folks and you know you are in Vegas within 20 feet of being in here!

The restaurant seats a conservative 150 people. It was jam-packed. Joe Montana was with friends in the private room, Paris Hilton was 30 minutes departed, and this place was just getting busy. Geno comes right out to greet us and tell us he is SLAMMED, but will get us some appetizers soon. He also basically recommends our entire meal so we try everything. I put my menu down and have him send over the Sommelier. The waiter is basically point and clicking our experience and just making sure we have strong drinks before the food comes out.

Typical of good restaurants, there is a bunch of people providing different functions. One person is filling your glass with water (tap, sparkling), one person is making sure your table is cleaned, one person is scouting for problems (manager), one is taking your order, and a few are delivering. Pretty typical here, but busy and efficient to say the least.

After about 3 GG’s and soda’s the appetizers arrive. I cannot remember specifics, but I do know the food was all outstanding. Geno tends to go off menu (for friends) which in essence changes the experience for the casual diner. We had Fried Rock shrimp (served in a Chinese box with 3 different sauces), an assortment of sushi, and the stand-by calamari. Food was all great and the sauces made the experience. I absolutely adored the Rock Shrimp.

Where I am a true noob, is wines. I have taken a few wine classes when I was in college and even had a private lesson when I was working in a 5 star, but never paid attention. I really didn’t care about wines then. Only later in my 20’s did I begin to appreciate, love-then-hate white wine and now am learning about the reds. The sommelier determined with our meal that a Washington Merlot was in order. It was one of the best Merlo's I have ever had. Nice and dry and flavorful. It was Ecole No. 41.

Geno then brought out some more sushi. I am a huge sushi fan, and he tends to try and kill us every meal. The dinners came out next. If I remember correctly, we had three courses. Short-Ribs, a New York Steak (cooked to perfection), and a whole lobster (2.5 lbs.). The food was outstanding. The plates rotated til’ clean.

The drinks flowed hard, and the food slipped down our alcohol greased throats with perfection. The service was above and beyond. The atmosphere was YOUNG and HAPPY! I left wanting more, feeling like I just met a hot girl that wanted more time.

This meal SCREAMS Vegas. If you are looking for above average food and service before you go out, N9ne Steakhouse is a great place to start.

Overall:
Food: 10
Service: 9
Décor: 8

Experience: 9


FYC

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn. Between this and the Ritz-Carlton review, that would be a tough choice to make!

Thanks.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn. Between this and the Ritz-Carlton review, that would be a tough choice to make!

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

it depresses and slightly confuses me, b/c I'm not sure where in Boston I could get a meal like that for that price. I've never ventured past the $70ish for food realm (Delmonicos, etc). the most expensive (I think) places in Boston are (I think) classic French places like L'Espalier and Aujourd’hui, but these are roughly the same price as Gary Danko and I fear not nearly as good.

looking a little bit more, perhaps No. 9 Park would be on the same level.

[howzit]

citanul, if you like fresh sushi with absolutely no wait try Le Miu in the east village. 7th and Ave A.

head sushi chef is an ex-Nobu guy and because of the price tag, this place is empty.

the fish is very very fresh: mirugai, aji, ama ebi don't have much of a shelf life so these usually go bad the first. all were fresh.

we had drinks at the bar, 5 apps for 3 ppl, beer and sake during dinner, full sushi orders for 3, coffee, one dessert of red bean/chocolate creme brulee. came out to $120 each.

[DrNo888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.


[/ QUOTE ]

wait, after looking at the ron siegel wiki i realized he was the awesome chef who won the lobster battle on iron chef. that guy ruled. i will be making reservations for the ritz as soon as i find someone to go with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go with you, but dont think my wife will like that very much. She would love this place base on El D's review.

ElD,

How long in advance do I need to reserve for the Ritz Carlton?

[MrMon]

Without reviewing a specific restaurant, I'll get to that later, I look at high-end restaurants in a similar way to Zagat, but for the really-high end, there's a slight twist.

In order to receive a high score, a restaurant must succeed in three areas, Food, Service, and Atmosphere. Of these, by far the most important is Food. Without Food, you can't succeed, and nothing you do in the other two will ever make up for substandard Food. But good Food with substandard Service or Atmosphere can still work, just not a top score.

What I expect from Food is something that works, but also something I can't do myself. As good as they can be, a steakhouse is never going to make it to the top of my list, simply because they can't exceed what I can do on my own to a high enough degree that I can justify paying top dollar prices. I want originality, or fantastic technique of classics, something that says the chef knows what he's doing, that he understands not only food, but his audience as well. Wine should match the food, and not just by spending top dollar, but by really digging through the wine cellar for something that matches what the chef is trying to accomplish. There's also the value factor, I should not just be eating money, I've got to feel like I'm getting my money's worth, not ripped off.

Service and Atmosphere are tricky, and are generally only negatives, but if the food is right, they will add to a meal substantially. Great food, but annoying Service will definitely dip my rating of a place, and something annoying about the Atmosphere, like too much noise, loud music, tables too close together, etc. will as well. Of the two, I think Service is much more important for a couple of reasons. Good service can save a meal, either by preventing you from making a mistake, like with wine, or enhancing it, by getting you what you want or providing a wine you never would have thought of on your own. Most aspects of service you shouldn't have to ask for, it simply happens, but they should be prepared if you ask to provide most reasonable requests. And for the absolute best service, they should be practically invisible. Things should happen like magic, you don't even know they happened, they just did.

Now, many restaurants can pull off one of these things, they can make one part of the meal spectacularly well. A local watering hole can have a spectacular hamburger or drink or dessert that you love, but it's never going be high end. That's okay, not everything has to be high end, and finding a place that can do something well is a great experience. A truly spectacular restaurant must do ALL three things well, and they must do them like a symphony orchestra. Everything must work together, not in opposition, that's the twist. The courses must flow together, not jar from one taste to another, the wines must match, the serving must be well timed, courses must be paced, reasonable requests must not throw them for a loop. It's not an easy thing to pull off, and it takes so many people, many invisible, that it's not surprising that it can be so expensive. If you figure what a top restaurant is making on you per hour you're there gross, not profit, and divide by the staff that it takes to make that happen, it's actually a bargain compared to other forms of entertainment.

There's one final factor that the restaurant can't control, a sort of X factor, and you sort of have to discount it. The best meals often have something happen at them that just make them memorable, make them special, that all depend on you. And it doesn't have to happen in the best places, and usually won't. Perhaps a restaurant is a new discovery, you just happened to stumble onto it with no or low expectations. Or someone says something memorable or you try a dish you'd never tried before, or you're celebrating something special. It's the unexpected factor that just burns a place into your brain in a positive way that can never be repeated that will make the most memorable meals. No restaurant can control that, but some do their best to make it happen.

[El Diablo]

Dr: You can get reservations for the Dining Room with relatively little notice if you are willing to eat early (5:30 or 6) or late (9pm or later).

cit: Wow, that sounds amazing.

All: Hopefully someone has been here: http://www.elbulli.com/ to give us a personal perspective. Tons of reviews and articles about it online, though. Here's one: http://chocolateandzucchini.com/archives/2006/08/dinner_at_el_bulli.php

[Dids]

Diablo,

I'm not sure it fits into the price range, but have you had that dinner at Elemental yet?

[Pudge714]

firstyearclay,
n9ne is very good. However if you think it's food is a 10 you have not been to a 10 restaurant. I went this summer and it was good, however the steak was clearly a second tier steak. By saying second tier it isn't in my pantheon of steaks it sounds like an insult, but I am a steak snob.

Also from my very limited dining experience in Vegas.
Picasso &gt; n9ne &gt; Prime

Speaking of steak, tonight I'm going to Harbour 60 in Toronto which is in my opinion the best steak I have ever had. It is an incredible restuarant, great food, great value and great service.

Here is the menu note there is sound so turn it off before you open it http://www.harboursixty.com/ I have been about half a dozen times and have probably seen almost everything on their dinner menu, except some of the fish and non-steaks. I also don't eat shellfish because I'm kosher, but I hear good things. The problem with the lamb, veal, etc. is that the steak is so good I can never talk myself out of ordering it.

Also El Diablo mentioned Nobu earlier. During the PCA I went twice during the week is was very good, although again since I don't eat shellfish my dining experience was definitely not optimal.

Speaking of service at the PCA I went out to dinner a couple times with a group of like 20 2p2ers. We went to one restuarant which was good, but not particularly high scale, while there the manager refused to let us all sit together because it was restaurant policy that groups of X would need to be split up. The restaurant was fairly empty and we were in a side room all by ourselves and they refused to let us sit together despite us talking to the manager being very accommodating etc. etc.

Later in the week we went to a more upscale place in the resort. All the servers were very friendly and accommodating and nice even though half of us had been drinking since that afternoon. By the time the meal was over the restaurant was empty and the waiters didn't act snobby or dickish because he were playing credit card roulette and acting like idiots they remained just as courteous.

It seems that a good litmus test for service is how they treat younger people. I have heard lots of stories of servers acting like complete dicks to kids my age at high class restaurants, at good restaurants they won't care unless we are disrupting other individuals.

Note: This post is kind of rambly and disoriented so if some of the stuff might not make sense.

[PITTM]

El D,

What have you heard/experienced wrt Manresa in Los Gatos, also Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I will be going to both of these places fairly soon and would like to hear from someone who has been. Both are consistently top 25 in the world from what i hear.

[firstyearclay]

[ QUOTE ]
firstyearclay,
n9ne is very good. However if you think it's food is a 10 you have not been to a 10 restaurant. I went this summer and it was good, however the steak was clearly a second tier steak. By saying second tier it isn't in my pantheon of steaks it sounds like an insult, but I am a steak snob.

Also from my very limited dining experience in Vegas.
Picasso &gt; n9ne &gt; Prime



[/ QUOTE ]
Pudge714,

I agree that their is BETTER steak houses in the city of Las Vegas. In terms of overall food experience, N9ne was great, but that was because of the personal service given to me. I have been to some great steakhouses (non-chain) in North America. 2 of the more famous ones are Bern's Steak House in Tampa, and Barberian's in Toronto, ON.

I have not been to H60 yet. I have heard great things from the locals though. I was in town twice last year and was turned down for showing up too late (11:00pm for dinner without a reservation).

IMO, Bern's is the pinnacle of all dining experiences and steak. I would challenge their meat to any steak house in the world.

In terms of chains, I also prefer Morton's over Ruth Chris.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

FYC

[Dids]

Short reviews of nicer places I've been:

Craftsteak in Vegas:

Went with like 12 2p2ers. It's hard to gauge server in this atmosphere, because we were something of a nuisance (late, drunk, Josh P. yelling "JASON T IS A [censored]" really loud). We'd also ordered ahead (actually GuyOnTilt had)Given how we were, I thought they were pretty damn nice to us.

The food was excellent. The steak was great, the aps were solid and I really enjoy the desert selection (some non-standard sorbets IIRC).

El Gaucho in Seattle:

Great service (for my part, I know Entity had some issues with the fact that they didn't boot an obviously drunk and annoying guy faster).

The steak was solid (although I've since taken a position that no steak (making an exception for Kobe beef, which I've only had once and can't really judge) is that much better than what I can make on my own as to be worth the steakhouse prices. They have some pretty standard steakhouse sides that were good, if not mind blowing.

There was a fruit, nut and cheese course before dessert that I really enjoyed. The cheese selection was pretty standard, but it was all delicious.

They do table side prep for both their caeser and their banana's foster. I had the apple pie, upon which they added some of the sauce from the BF, and it was excellent.

The Metropolitian Grill in Seattle.

Big overpriced steakhouse. The steak was good, the sides were very uninspired. Service was ok, but again it's hard to judge because as detailed in another thread, we were pretty lousy customers. Despite costing a good deal more, not close to El Gaucho in terms of quality.

Cafe Juanita in Kirkland.

Very good. French food, but not so french that you were really aware of it. A much better return on your dollar than any of the steakhouses. I've typed up a longer review somewhere that I'll try and dig up.

[El Diablo]

PITTM,

I haven't been to Manresa but have heard it is fantastic. I've been to Chez Panisse a couple of times. It is very good, but I think it is overrated. I mean, you get incredible, fresh, seasonal stuff prepared very well. Alice Waters pioneered a lot of what is now standard at a lot of "California Cuisine" places and really blazed the trail for tons of high-end places here to make this sort of simple, fresh food with local, seasonal products (doing this at a time when fine dining pretty much meant heavy sauce, super-rich, French style cuisine). But I just don't find much here to be all that innovative, just a lot of very well executed relatively basic stuff.

I mean, look at the menu: http://www.chezpanisse.com/pgdownmenu.html

Everything on there is gonna be delicious. But there's nothing on that list that makes me say, wow, that sounds like something really incredible and different I must try that!

Don't get me wrong, it is very good. I just don't think that you get the sort of sublime dining experience that you get at many of the restaurants it gets compared to.

[El Diablo]

JA Sucker post I've moved here

--

High-end Dining Pisses Me Off

A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off. I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places. I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen. The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own. Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

Feel free to agree or disagree here. This thread should be a liberation of sorts for all people who like food, but hate the attitude that goes along with it.
--

[El Diablo]

Sucker,

I moved your post here because I think it is a VERY important part of what should be discussed in this thread.

I agree completely with you about restaurants like that, and pretty much avoid them.

When I think of perfect service at restaurants, it's as if I don't notice the wait staff is there, except when I need something. The wait staff is ATTENTIVE, but not INTRUSIVE. This means that they have a good pulse of when I need another drink and magically appear right about the time I'm thinking "hmmm, almost ready for another drink."

If they are at the table and my wine glass is 2/3 empty, they'll offer to top me off. But they are not hovering about pouring two sips of wine into my glass every few minutes.

I enjoy having a pleasant relationship with the waiter, but I'm not looking to make best friends with the waiter at a place like this either. I want enough information to be able to make good decisions, and that's just about it. A good waiter is a good communicator. He can take cues from a customer as to whether or not they give a damn about where exactly the mushrooms came from.

The Dining Room at Ritz Carlton, Gary Danko, and Quince are three I listed that do this very well. There are many others that also fit the bill. Michael Mina is one restaurant that has a lot of the problems that irritate you. I'll get around to a review of that soon.

It sounds to me like you've been somewhat unlucky with your high-end dining experiences. I've definitely experienced what you are talking about, but I've also experienced a completely different level of service that many in this thread allude to as well. You really need to experience that type of place.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
JA Sucker post I've moved here

--
A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off. I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places. I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen. The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own. Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

Feel free to agree or disagree here. This thread should be a liberation of sorts for all people who like food, but hate the attitude that goes along with it.
--

[/ QUOTE ]

if youve read my posts you know i eat anywhere the food is good. and most of my favorite places would be classified as "cheap eats". i do, however, understand the difference between a good meal and a fine dining experience...here it is: i can go to dan tanas and have a great meal. the staff is awesome everyone knows me, i can bring a group and theyre all treated like kings. i dont even need a menu nino knows exactly what i want and how i want it prepared. he will make anything for anyone in the group if he has the ingredients in the kitchen. mike will pour me a glass of decent red and some wierd stuff he has under the bar after dinner. but i would not consider this fine dining...fine dining is as follows: you walk in, plop yourself down tell the waiter to bring you a 5 course tasting menu w/ drink pairings which may include wine/beer/or cocktails chefs choice and sommelier choice. then you just proceed to get blown away by what follows. its the difference between getting your house painted by a great crew who will do exactly as you say and having your portrait done by a master.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the staff's attitude

[/ QUOTE ]

this is certainly a reason I stay away from certain places, but it can happen at all kinds of places.

I refuse to set foot into Hi Rise Bakery in Cambridge b/c of staff people are the smarmiest people I have ever experienced and these are [censored] retail workers. Great, you make $45 Apple Pies, how about I punch you in the [censored] face?

now, there are plenty of other great bakeries without this attitude, so I don't hate all bakeries. it's probably the same with the best restaurants.

[octopi]

JA Sucker: I guess what I like best is possibly finding a bit more about a restaurant I have admired for a while and also trying some things I might not normally be able to. For instance, this weekend, I was taken to a restaurant three hours away from my home city based of the strength of their tasting menu. I was blown away by almost all of the seven dishes (got to try sweetbreads and a wonderful dessert wine), but also enjoyed our service (casual, non intrusive, informative) and the flexibility of the kitchen. I overheard that sour cream ice cream was on the regular menu so I asked if I had heard correctly, and was amazed when the ginger ice cream on my dessert tasting was substituted with the sour cream. We were late diners, and after chatting with our server, he brought over the remainder of our favorite wine pairing to finish up.

The chef came out to meet us, and answered some questions on the tasting and he told us to return in the future with any special requests we might have.

I have certainly received some [censored] service in an expensive restaurant before, and some snobby service, but perhaps it is just the casual fun way my boyfriend and I approach dining because we have often received above par and very friendly service, even compared to other diners around us. It might differ if the restaurant is packed with corporate credit card holders every night of the week and most of the attendees assume more expensive = better food. That's not always the case.

[lapoker17]

diablo - i can never believe that you think nobu in vegas is a good dining experience. i find it super uncomfortable - everyone's so jammed together. i don't think the service is that good either. food's great, but whatever

[El Diablo]

octopi: "perhaps it is just the casual fun way my boyfriend and I approach dining because we have often received above par and very friendly service"

That is very often the case at all restaurants, including fine-dining places. And you don't have to chat them up if you don't want to. Just some simple eye contact, acknowledgements, and appropriate "thank yous" go a long, long way towards receiving excellent service.

KBZ: Snotty attitude from service industry people is a sensitive subject (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=7025801&amp;an=&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1) for me, haha. Thread touches on restaurant service as well.

[J.A.Sucker]

[ QUOTE ]

That is very often the case at all restaurants, including fine-dining places. And you don't have to chat them up if you don't want to. Just some simple eye contact, acknowledgements, and appropriate "thank yous" go a long, long way towards receiving excellent service.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm paying 300 bucks for a nice dinner for two, this should go without saying. But that's not really my point here, however.

[El Diablo]

la,

I've been lucky (losing ridiculous amounts at Hard Rock and having host make reservations probably helps, btw having an independent restaurant within a casino that they don't comp is the most ridiculous thing ever, but that's a whole different rant) with tables every time I've been at Nobu and gotten good tables that are not jam packed together, but I've definitely seen what you're talking about. I've always had more room at Nobu in Vegas than in New York. However, I suspect my opinion of my experiences there are somwhat colored by the fact that they are always in the midst of a drunken two or three day Hard Rock gambling frenzy. So Nobu, while in actuality quite loud, seems like an oasis of peace and tranquility in the middle of all that. I agree that the experience is probably not as great as my impression of it is.

[El Diablo]

Sucker,

What are some places you've been to that are guilty of this type of behavior?

[Fast Food Knight]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never spent $500+ on a meal for two including tip and wine...but then again I live in Atl and not NY, LV, CHI, or SF

[/ QUOTE ]

You came really close though. Which brings me to my review...

Quinones at Bacchanalia

Link (http://www.starprovisions.com/)

A lavish prix fixe multi-course restaurant which opened in the basement of Bacchanalia (established fine dining restaurant in Atlanta) by the same owners to accommodate more upscale parties. AEK and I recently celebrated our 2 year anniversary which included an amazing dinner here.

First of all, the restaurant only seats 11 tables. When we arrived, we were the first and only people there well through the majority of the meal (it was a rainy, freezing Thursday). You have the option of having a wine pairing with each of the ten courses, @ $165 per person. Once you add in the $ for the sparkling water we got (AEK's idea), tax, and tip, you have a pretty steep tab.

Chef's Taster
Complimentary pink champagne, and a crispy fried bite containing cod and potatoes that was creamy and delicious. On the side was a small shot glass of soup (I know this has a name - sorry, I'm not that sophisticated). I think it was cauliflower; also delicious.

First course - Foie Gras Terrine with Port Poached Pears &amp; Blood Orange with Donnhoff Riesling Kabinett

Sadly I discovered I hate foie gras and consider to be comparable to spam. The presentation was beautiful, however, and the Riesling was to DIE for.

Second course - Slightly Cured North Georgia Rainbow Trout with Local Radish &amp; Avocado Puree with Guado Al Tasso Vermentino

This course really wow-ed me as I wasn't too familiar with the practice of curing fish. Our waitress was extremely knowledgeable about the process which basically includes letting the raw fish sit in water, sugar, and vodka for several days which essentially "cooks" it. I was also happy that she was able to tell me where in North Georgia the trout was from, as that is where I was born and raised. The radish and avocado went perfectly with the cured fish. Made us vow to go home and try our hand at curing meat. The wine was slightly more full bodied than the riesling and incredibly delicious.

Third course - Pan Seared Nantucket Bay Scallop with Meyer Lemon, Celeriac &amp; Perigord Truffle with Jurancon Sec

The scallop was served in a small bowl swimming in the rich celeriac sauce, which was creamy and complemented the flavor of the scallop (which was perfectly cooked). The truffle was cool only because I've always been amazed at the price of an olive oil that contains truffles. At this point the wines began running together a little bit.

Fourth course - Pan Roasted Gulf Red Snapper with Young Fennel, Leek &amp; Green Garlic Broth with Marsannay Blanc

The flavor of this dish was my favorite thus far, and what made the presentation so good was that they spooned the fresh broth over the fish as they were serving it, so you caught the full aroma. The seasoning here was dead on - perhaps because I love garlic /images/graemlins/smirk.gif, and the portion was just the right size to really prolong your appetite rather than filling you up so early on in the meal. This was the last course with white wine and of course the heaviest of the whites (which I usually dislike) but again it was so good I wanted to write down the name so I could buy a bottle later.

Fifth course - Veal Sweetbreads with Roasted Turnips, Cippollini Onions &amp; Lacinato Kale with Barolo

I was a little freaked out about the sweetbreads just because "thymus gland" doesn't sound too appetizing, but this course was wonderful as well. The sweetbreads were baked into some sort of cake, or patty, which seemed like a mixture of many ingredients and flavors. I enjoyed the texture. This was atop the onions and kale which was DELICIOUS and reminded me of sauteed baby spinach. At this point I am still feeling hungry and looking forward to more food.

Sixth course - Braised Kobe Shortribs with Potato Puree &amp; Crispy Fingerling Potatoes with Basel Cellars, Merriment 2002

Now THIS was the real treat. Served completely boneless, there were two piles of meat - one was bright pink and so tender you could cut it with your fork. The other was covered in the heavenly potato puree. Definitely the winning course, hands down.

Seventh course - Sweet Grass Dairy Fresh Goat's Milk Cheese with Savannah Tupelo Honeycomb Spiced Pecans

I love the combination of cheese and spiced pecans. It was a good pallet cleanser after the heavier meat courses.

Eighth course - Beignets with Warm Almond Milk

An amazing dessert, I would give anything to be able to recreate the almond milk.

Ninth course - Caramel Apple Cake with Apple Cream &amp; Balsamic Sorbet with Chateau lafaurie-Peyraguey 2000

Every part of this dessert tasted great except the balsamic sorbet. It tasted like creamy vinegar to me. I think AEK liked it. Quite drunk at this point. The dessert wine was very sweet and almost seem syrupy if that is possible. I liked it but he didn't so I finished both of ours. Heh.

Of course after this they HAD to bring us a small plate of various cookies, pastries, chocolates, and toffees, which I personally enjoyed better than any of the desserts. Throughout the course of the meal we had two alternating servers who were very knowledgeable and friendly.

We also were entertained by the extremely flaming maître d', who, once we divulged that we live in the gay porn district in town, shared with us a story regarding expensive fur shawls and how they are only for "ladies and queens" and gestured to indicate himself. It was hilarious.

Oh, and 2/3 through our meal another table came in, consisting of old, southern, good-ole-boy lawyers. Upon entrance one of them announced that he was "allergic to all seafood." Quickly after this another chimes in that he "doesn't eat the entrails of animals." Well, then why did you come to a prix fixe restaurant serving both, you idiots. Of course, they were accommodated.

I have been to a lot of upscale restaurants in Atlanta, San Francisco, SoCal, Boston, etc... and this takes the cake BY FAR.

[PITTM]

in response to sucker's post. there is a restaurant in santa cruz called shadowbrook that is generally considered to be the best fine dining place in the county. i have went a few times, and their food is pretty good, but not amazing. However, the service was just way too snotty. I mean its nice that you put my napkin in my lap and say "excuse my reach" everytime you pour water for the person next to me, but to just constantly be hovering around and doing the whole overbearing service thing was just weak. I havent been back since high school.

[J.A.Sucker]

octopi,

I love being adventurous at restaurants. After all, I don't like eating at restaurants what I could make at home. Ironically, I think it's very difficult to get truly out of the ordinary food at these types of places. Take spicy food, for example. Most high-end restaurants are fairly pedestrian in terms of how they spice the food. This kind of makes sense because they would hate to burn off some Kennedy's sinuses, but I like spicy food. Many dishes are supposed to be SPICY. They often aren't. That sucks.

I just find that most destination restaurants don't do it for me. I guess I'm hard to please. And yes, I've been to many "great" restaurants.

The fact that most people would ever tolerate ANY kind of snobby service at an expensive restaurant is pretty pathetic in itself and symptomatic of a larger dining societal problem. HOW COULD YOU TOLERATE THIS TO EXIST? If the dude at Jiffy Lube treated you half as bad as some of these waitstaffs, you'd have a stroke, yet we just write off these experiences at fancy restaurants as unfortunate. THEY ARE SELLING THE EXPERIENCE. That's weak-sauce.

I think I'm pretty much done with it.

[El Diablo]

FFK,

Wow, GREAT review, sounds outstanding. A couple of comments.

"Foie Gras Terrine ... Sadly I discovered I hate foie gras and consider to be comparable to spam"

Don't give up yet. Next time you're at a nice restaurant that has a simple seared foie gras, give it a try. At Gary Danko it's "Seared Foie Gras with Caramelized Red Onions and Fuji Apples." It'll often be served like that accompanied by something a little sweet. This is far more delicious and completely different than a terrine preparation. Give it a try, those geese and ducks work very hard to make the foie gras that tasty for you!

"I would give anything to be able to recreate the almond milk."

Noted. I'm getting to work on my almond milk technique.

"The dessert wine was very sweet and almost seem syrupy if that is possible."

Yeah, that is definitely possible. Dessert wines can range from something that tastes like a slightly sweeter regular wine all the way to very intensely sweet and syrupy.

[Pudge714]

Firstyearclay,
I've been to Berns is is an awesome dining experience and one of the few steaks I would consider top tier.

I think Berns is one of the best dining experiences I have ever had. Although I ordered steak tartar and learned the hard way that I just don't enjoy it. My steak was very good, but I still have had two better H60 as mentioned and LG's in Palm Springs.

Also FFK I would try Foie Gras again it is one of my favorite foods.

[MrMon]

[ QUOTE ]
octopi,

I love being adventurous at restaurants. After all, I don't like eating at restaurants what I could make at home. Ironically, I think it's very difficult to get truly out of the ordinary food at these types of places. Take spicy food, for example. Most high-end restaurants are fairly pedestrian in terms of how they spice the food. This kind of makes sense because they would hate to burn off some Kennedy's sinuses, but I like spicy food. Many dishes are supposed to be SPICY. They often aren't. That sucks.

I just find that most destination restaurants don't do it for me. I guess I'm hard to please. And yes, I've been to many "great" restaurants.

The fact that most people would ever tolerate ANY kind of snobby service at an expensive restaurant is pretty pathetic in itself and symptomatic of a larger dining societal problem. HOW COULD YOU TOLERATE THIS TO EXIST? If the dude at Jiffy Lube treated you half as bad as some of these waitstaffs, you'd have a stroke, yet we just write off these experiences at fancy restaurants as unfortunate. THEY ARE SELLING THE EXPERIENCE. That's weak-sauce.

I think I'm pretty much done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've been to many "great" restaurants and continue to find them "snobby", then I think the problem may be you, not them. Of all the top restaurants I've ever been to, I've only found one "snobby" - La Toque in Rutherford (Napa), California. Those people had an attitude and I didn't appreciate it. Every place else has made me feel very comfortable and that's what they're supposed to do. Of course, if you go in with a chip on your shoulder, they may respond in kind.

However, this sort of place might be more your speed, should you ever be in Boston, especially on the right night. You want spicy, they got spicy.

East Coast Grill (http://eastcoastgrill.net/)

From their website:
[ QUOTE ]
On the eve of this unprecedented 3-night over-the-top fiery food challenge between
the East Coast Grill and our heat seeking public, I think it's important to remember the
exact nature of our original dispute.

...I've always liked spicy food and, in the early days of the East Coast Grill (circa 1986), we had gained a little reputation for serving some spicy dishes, which was a little unusual outside a Thai or Mexican restaurant. Unsuspectingly, I was baited into a culinary dare by a small, sick sect of the dining public whose taunts of "that really wasn't that hot" finally got the better of me and my formal training. I could not control the burning desire to silence at least a few. The resulting creation was the now infamous Pasta From Hell, fueled primarily by the original Inner Beauty Hot Sauce. Customers dropped like sweaty, panting, weak little flies. The kitchen howled at their tormentor's agony. But when the smoke cleared there were a few left standing, a crazed, goofy, half smile on their faces and a faraway look in their eyes, and, as I looked out from behind the grill, I would get an almost imperceptable, knowing nod. Their fix had been had and, lost in that chile stupor, they acknowledged the contest was a draw. But, like a gunfighter in the Old West, I knew this was only the beginning. They would return, they would bring their friends to face the true test.

Word spread until there was an actual demand for a night when only wicked hot food was served. The brave and the super freaks came in droves to feed their strange and weird addiction. The first Hell Night was born. More came and we created the Hell Doubleheader and today, for the fourth time in world history, you are participating in not 1, not 2, but 3 straight nights of pure atomic cuisine -- the only Hell Tripleheader known to humankind. Chefs Eric and Jason do battle today with recipes handed down by chefs before them. The legends of past fire eaters are whispered to new staff. So here we are in continuation of the eternal struggle. New dishes are designed, new chile mixes created, gas masks distributed. The kitchen is ready..are you?

We won't stop until you do.

Good luck,
Chris



[/ QUOTE ]

They are famous for Hell Night. Next time that occurs is Feb 26-28.

[Melchiades]

Some thing about good service is that the waiter quickly notice what kind of service you want.

When I'm out with friends of mine that rarely eat at high-end places, the waiter should notice this. And that means mastering the art of giving us great service and reccomend stuff without making the people that visit such a place for the first time feel like idiots. Don't make my mate feel like an idiot because he doesn't want red wine even if it is the obvious choice with that particular course. It's surprising hom many high-end places that fails at this.

This isn't a problem when you're dining with a bunch of likeminded food lovers obviously.

[MagicNinja]

Gary Danko-..
FYI danny and I lived a block from Gary Danko and walked past it pretty much every day to get to a small sushi shop in San Francisco... It looks like some kind of nightclub, all the windows are totally blacked out and there is a 'bouncer' outside the door. After a month or two we asked him what the place actually was (we had only just started our aristocratic eating habits), and he said it was a restaurant. We said we'd probably drop in soon then, but he said there's usually a 2-3 month list of reservations usually.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
El D,

What have you heard/experienced wrt Manresa in Los Gatos, also Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I will be going to both of these places fairly soon and would like to hear from someone who has been. Both are consistently top 25 in the world from what i hear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pitt,

I have been to Manresa about 5 times, and absolutely love it. Well worth the trup. Very small and cosy with really great service.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't make my mate feel like an idiot because he doesn't want red wine even if it is the obvious choice with that particular course. It's surprising hom many high-end places that fails at this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most companies and most people fail at this in every business. 90% of all sales people forgets that if the customer would know everything about the available products and solutions there wouldn't be any need for sales people at all. Just by understanding what you write above you can make success in almost any kind of business. It is a bit of a derail maybe but it shows how important it is. I go to visit a customer, I can't identify him but was a large company by Norwegian standard, I inherited this customer from a sales person who had quited to start working for a competitor. So on our first meeting he says after 5 minutes: "How good you got rid of that guy. I ordered a system and when it was installed it did not work as I wanted. He told me I should have known that. I should know? Wtf should I know? What was he supposed to know then? I wouldn't have bought anything at all from you anymore if he would still work for you and I will never buy anything from them." It is the same with high end-restaurants, if you would know as much about food and wine and cooking as they do, you would probably eat at home instead, so they should be happy the bigger the gap between them and you in competence is and thus treat the guy who knows nothing about wine at all the best of their guests, since it is towards him they add most value.

[Claunchy]

Diablo,

Totally agree about the non-stuffiness. It was the most relaxed and comfortable I've ever felt in a fine-dining restaurant.

I actually do remember thinking the restrooms were a little sub-par now that you mention it, but I had had enough drinks by then that it didn't really faze me.

Also forgot to mention dessert. The creme brulee was really good. Had a butterscotch taste to it that was really unique, and it went well with a 10 year port.

[JaBlue]

Last nice place I went to was trattoria acqua for Valentine's with my girlfriend. Meal cost $85 for us, $100 with tip, so ~50 each. Not fine dining like some of the places mentioned in this thread, but certainly pricy.

First thing I noticed was how [censored] the menu was. For a nice place like this it should be completely professional but the menus looked cheaper than the place and had some stupid quote like
"The goal should not be to die in a pretty, well-preserved, body but to go completely worn out, kicking and screaming with a chocolate martini in one hand..." Very lame.

Other than that the service was very good. There was the main waiter who had very fancy suspenders, several bus boys to take away our dishes and fill our water, and a dessert guy. Most people that ever served me.

For appetizers I ordered Lobster Bisque and she got Formagio al Formo: baked Brie cheese encased in phyllo dough, served with stone fruit and a honey-white truffle sauce. Hers was better than mine, which was very very good but I got her to try mine and she's a vegetarian (first time she ate any kind of meat in 15 years) which was exciting. She thought it was "very wierd but good."

For dinner she got Agnolotti con Funghi Porcini e Tartufo Nero - Wild mushroom &amp; black truffle filled Agnolotti with a marsala and porcini mushroom cream sauce which is spectacular. There is a truffle in each ravioli type thing and it is knock-your-socks-off good.

I got Salmone con Gremolata : Oven roasted organic Scottish Salmon filet with a Gremolata topping of pinenuts, lemon zest and breadcrumbs served over Heirloom potatoes, organic tomatoes, black olives and a white wine reduction sauce

which was very good but the reduction sauce could be a bit overwhelming at times. The olives and tomatoes they used were very strong and the dish was good but the sauce was a little much all in all. The fish was awesome, of course.

For dessert we got a chocolate soufle just like a molten lava you can get just about anywhere, which was very good but not spectacular, and a lemon tart that was also very good but not spectacular and had a little too much torched whipped topping and not enough tart.

All in all a great meal and lots of fun, probably overpriced like all places down in La Jolla though.

[Six_of_One]

I couldn’t make it through a thread like this without contributing a review of my favorite restaurant, Urasawa. It’s a Japanese kaiseki-style place that also serves great sushi, located in Los Angeles (Beverly Hills, to be precise).

Visiting Urasawa is definitely a fine-dining experience, but different than most of the other places listed in this thread, I think. The sushi bar seats 10, and that’s it…just 10 (at the most) will be served each night.

I was there a week ago, and I didn’t write anything down, so I know I’ve forgotten some of the details of the dishes I was served…you’ll get the gist, though. The menu changes over time, but on any given day, you’re getting what he’s serving…you don’t get a choice (though if you have special requests or items you just can’t eat, he can accommodate you if you let him know in advance).

First – Goma-dofu (sesame tofu) with uni in the middle, topped with wasabi and gold leaf.

Second – This was a mixed platter of various small items, one bite each…I can’t remember them all, but I know it included sea cucumber roe (served in a carved slice of cucumber), smoked salmon (wrapped around something, but I can’t remember what), fish eggs, daikon radish, abalone in miso…1 or 2 other things too, I think.

Third – Sashimi platter. I got a plate with various kinds of sashimi, including red snapper, needlefish, giant clam, uni, Spanish mackerel, and toro (the best toro you’ll ever find). His standard is not quite as elaborate, usually 3 types of sashimi (always including toro), served on top of a bowl carved out of ice.

Fourth – Tuna tataki. This was thin slices of tuna, seared around the edges, served with some kind of topping (several ingredients were involved, but I’m not sure what they were…gold leaf was included, he likes to add that on top of things).

Fifth – A type of egg custard with uni and shrimp in the middle, topped by yuba skin and served warm…this one was fantastic, and not something I’d been served before (I’ve been maybe 10-12 times).

Sixth – There was a specific name for this, but I can’t remember it…basically, a little charcoal grill was placed in front of me, but instead of a metal grill, there was a large leaf being heated from beneath…on the leaf, there was a type of Japanese beef (not Kobe beef, but from somewhere else in Japan…apparently there are 400 different kinds of beef in Japan, and the chef is experimenting with different kinds), shrimp (which minutes earlier had been pulled live out of a tank in front of us and skewered), and shirako (cod sperm sac, which sounds gross, but is actually really good), all cooking in a miso sauce.

Seventh – Shabu-shabu, including more of that Japanese beef (great stuff), lobster (pulled live from a tank and chopped up, just like the shrimp), and foie gras (perhaps my favorite food on earth).

Then, it was time for the sushi. I’m going to try to list everything I had, though it’s quite possible I’m forgetting a couple things. His standard is to serve one piece of everything, but for me he sometimes serves 2 pieces (I ended up having 3 of the toro).

Toro, maguro, seared toro, red snapper, shima aji, kohada, mirugai, orange clam, abalone (he always has abalone that are just enormous, so much bigger than the ones you see at most sushi bars), shira ebi (a whole bunch of tiny shrimp pressed together), ama-ebi (pulled live out of the tank, and served with the brains poured over the top), saba (nothing like the sometimes too-fishy stuff you’ll find at most sushi bars, this is actually one of the more expensive items he serves), Japanese mackerel, squid, shiitake mushroom (cooked on a grill), needlefish, lobster (again, from living to my stomach in about a minute), uni, anago, a toro roll, Japanese beef (cooked lightly on the grill), tamago

I think that’s it. Yes, I eat a lot.

Finally, he serves two desserts:

First – Apple jelly served over pieces of dried persimmon (this was something new for me, I really liked it)

Second – Black sesame pudding (he serves sesame pudding a lot, sesame ice cream in the summer, and I always enjoy it)

Then you get a mug of some very strong, traditional green tea, followed by a cup of some other kind of roasted tea (not sure what it’s called).

Total cost -- $300 before drinks, tax, or tip. Standard is $250 per person, but I pay a little more because I typically eat more than the average customer (I think I get great value for the extra $50, because I had two pieces of about half the types of sushi listed above, plus my sashimi platter from early in the meal was bigger than everyone else’s).

Service has always been perfect…the atmosphere is very intimate, since even on a busy night he will only have 10 customers. He puts a ton of effort into the presentation of all his dishes, which makes it fun to watch for me, since he’s preparing everything right in front of me.

If you’re curious to see some pictures of the place, here is a link to someone else’s review of Urasawa (different menu, but a few of the same items, and a lot of the same sushi):
Urasawa Pictures (http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLandingSignin.jsp?Uc=9zp0kgn.99huq60b&amp;Uy=-9txz96&amp;Upost_signin=Slideshow.jsp%3Fmode%3Dfromsha re&amp;Ux=0)

[citanul]

JA,

My apologies in advance for responding in cropping your post into little quotes fashion, I really don't like doing that in general.

[ QUOTE ]
A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry for that, I didn't hope for this thread to piss anyone off, and I'm sorry that high-end dining pisses you off. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it seems like your opinion is colored by (perhaps several to many) bad experiences, or perhaps it's just not the scene for you. That's alright too.

[ QUOTE ]
I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. ... I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

As others have commented, if the staff has an attitude, that's a bad thing. I've only incredibly rarely had even a single staff member have any sort of attitude at all. In general I've found the staff to be attentive to detail, but exactly as "intrusive" or "educational" as you want them to be, and no more. If and when they do things like you mention later where they say "excuse my reach," every time they pour water past you, they're just conforming to that particular restaurant's etiquette code. I agree that that particular level is a bit silly to me, but I can see spots where it would make sense. (It's certainly better to be too polite than to offend a customer who is paying this kind of money for food.)

[ QUOTE ]
The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really, really don't think this is true. While "good" food might be available down the street, I don't think that there's anything comparable to most "great" restaurants (ignoring pure outliers) at significantly lower price points at humbler places. If you look at places like Bouli, alinea, etc (those being the more experimental restaurants), there just aren't low price point places for that kind of food. Or at least not that aren't disgusting. The processes that produce good "high tech" or whatever food are expensive, time consuming, and require great ingredients to work well. The food that we're calling "best in class" or whatever in this thread is similar. While there might be a good French food at a bunch of places, someplace might arguably serve the best French food in the world/country/city. It would be understandable if they charged a bit more for their food and classed up their service.

But as others have said in this thread, when most people go to a high-end place, you're not just paying for the food. You're paying for the experience, the memory, the whole evening. Everything should be great. If everything isn't great for you, something's gone wrong.


[ QUOTE ]
The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very odd indeed. I don't think there's anything more I can say than that. I'm just surprised that you've gone to restaurants employing some of the top wine experts in the world and consistently found your taste in wine and wine matching to be superior to theirs, especially considering that you have a phD in something that has nothing to do with vineculture, and they have spent years studying wine.

[ QUOTE ]
Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, while many of these places don't expect you to be "loud," I'm shocked that you've had several occasions where they are butting in to your conversations, interrupting you, and not letting your evening go as you would like. In my experience this is where the best servers excel. Knowing when is a good time to bring the next dish, when is a good time to interrupt briefly, and how to unobtrusively refill a glass of wine has been the hallmark of the service I've received at great restaurants.

[ QUOTE ]
All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

[/ QUOTE ]

JA, I hope you give high-end dining another try. Maybe let El D pick. But it is understandable that someone might not enjoy the jacket-required, 6 waiters to a table, decibel limited nature of these places.

A good, but not great, discussion I think could be started in the nature of this:

Lotus of Siam, LV, is frequently cited as one of the best, if not the best, Thai food in the country. (I ate there last year during the WSOP, and honestly, the food was amazing. Way better than my local "great" Thai place, and Chicago is a city of Thai food.) The menu is inexpensive, to say the least, but service (though good) and ambience are both more in the nature of someplace you go for $10 Thai food than anything else. Aruns, Chicago, is also cited as one of the best, if not the best, Thai food in the country. It's about $85 a head. One explores what's great Thai food: the best that you can do with the dishes that Americans all know, the other explores rarer dishes, rarer ingredients, greater variety - still will server you the staples, just will kick them up one more notch.

I'm not saying that people who crave finding the local place with the killer handmade ravioli, or the great beer steamed mussels, or the best sandwich ever, or whatever, is not a worthwhile pursuit (or one that I don't engage in), I'm just saying that there is a niche for these places outside of just wanting to be seen or make an impression on someone or ridiculously spend money. I think that when you don't get unlucky, you can enjoy your food, your company, and be treated with the best service you can find anywhere, all while knowing that this is an experience that is rare and special in that it couldn't happen just the same way at some random other restaurant.

I guess that I don't agree that there's an attitude that goes along with these places. Aside from having to don the monkey suit, I've basically never had a problem with feeling uncomfortable or like my party wasn't wanted in one of the great restaurants.

[NT!]

Generally speaking:

I am not a food snob. I worked in low and mid-range restaurants for a long while and have eaten a ton of food from those kitchens - happily. I have a lot of friends who work in upper-mid range or fine dining type places, and I really enjoy going out and blowing a bunch of money on a fabulous dining experience. But ultimately I will be way happier going to a mid-range place where I know what I'm getting and get treated well than I would going to a crowded, snobby fine dining place full of obnoxious people where I will get sub-par or even merely average treatment. Being treated well is hugely important to me. So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

I'm a very friendly, polite customer who is easy to please, so I usually get treated great. I find that when I don't, it's usually because the staff has some notion that I will be ignorant, cheap or unappreciative and they decide right off the bat to spend their effort on someone who looks wealthier. If I am treated this way at a restaurant I will never, ever go back. Old male waiters are usually the worst about this.

Not surprisingly I have pretty much been miserable since moving to NYC since there are no mid-range restaurants where everyone knows my name and treats me great, everything is crowded and loud and full of irritating people and most places are ridiculously overpriced.

Will post a few restaurant reviews later on, don't want this post to get too lengthy.

NT

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really, really don't think this is true. While "good" food might be available down the street, I don't think that there's anything comparable to most "great" restaurants (ignoring pure outliers) at significantly lower price points at humbler places.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

well, the most expensive French food in Paris is going to cost just as much as in the US, or more. The tasting menu at Guy Savoy is about $300 without wine. Is this better than a tasting menu that costs $100? I bet it is, but I think the curve is nowhere near linear.

Meaning, I doubt Guy Savoy is 3 times as good, however one would define 3 times as good. I think a lot of what you are paying for is the name of the place, and the ambience, and the service, etc. Just the food, which I think Sucker was referring to, is probably not 'better enough' to justify the price.

I think this is true for all kinds of ultra-luxury items. You are often not going to get good value at the top of the food chain. (pun intended /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MrMon]

I meant to make this point eariler, but the curve is definitely NOT linear. It never is when you approach the top of something, for the simple reason that the cost to make it better isn't linear either. And there's the scarcity factor. Is a $100 bottle of wine 10x better than a $10 one? No, of course not. Is a $15 million pitcher 100x better than a $150K rookie? Probably not. But those higher priced items are much rarer than the cheaper ones, and if you want quality over quantity, you have to pay. It's not always worth it, but sometimes it is, just to experience the best there is.

[turnipmonster]

when you say mid-range, what sort of price range are you talking? I have long thought that nyc is a great city for midrange restaurants, entrees are in the 9-20 price range for many of my favorite places. in fact, I am often shocked at entree prices when I go back home to NC, because I am used to getting the same quality food in nyc at much lower prices.

[Pudge714]

Last night I went to Harbour 60 in Toronto with Eagles and our parents.

Appetizers
Seared Ahi Tuna
[ QUOTE ]
pepper crusted Ahi tuna with sesame, soya, daikon salad and wasabi.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3715/tunasx5.png (http://imageshack.us)

This was really good. Really tender, I usually don't like Tuna, but this was really good, I loved the pepper and sesame.

Pan Seared Foie Gras
[ QUOTE ]
ripe mango and ice wine reduction

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2039/foiegraswb1.png (http://imageshack.us)
Like most foie gras this was excellent. Very tender and nice fruit salad on the side. Eagles and I needed to fight over the last bit. My only complaint was that we weren't given enough toast, but the wait staff gave us more toast very quickly when we asked for more.

Shrimp Cocktail
[ QUOTE ]
jumbo white Gulf shrimp with a house tomato chili sauce

[/ QUOTE ]
As I said earlier I don't eat shellfish, but my parents and Eagles seemed to really enjoy the shrimp.
No pictures of the shrimp on the website.

Flash Fried Calamari
[ QUOTE ]
tossed with garlic, red cherry peppers and capers

[/ QUOTE ]
I always enjoy calamari, they aren't that heavily breaded and there was chipotle mayo on the side. All the appetizers were very good and I wouldn't consider reordering if given another opportunity.No pitcures of the calamari on the website.

Entrees
Harbour Sixty Bone-in Rib Steak
Quite simply the best steak I have ever had and that includes several of the top steakhouses in Toronto, New York, LA and Vegas. As usual it was delicious and three of us got it. I can't properly explain it's awesomeness without tasting it, right now I'm literally salivating and my stomach now feels incredibly empty. I'm really upset the picture doesn't show the inside of the steak.
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1818/steakpv5.png (http://imageshack.us)

Long Bone Lamb Chops
[ QUOTE ]
Colorado chops on a crisp potato pancake

[/ QUOTE ]
My mom got this and I tried some. The chops were great cripsy on the outside tender on the inside. My mom felt they were a little too fatty, but I really like them. The potato pancake was okay, but I expected it be better it didn't meet the expectations of the rest of the meal.

Sides
Mashed Potatoes
Good creamy mashed potatoes, a really big portion we couldn't finish it.

French Fries
Thin cut fries, lightly salted, really good, really crispy.

Sauteed Broccolini
A little too garlicky for my liking. Again a very big portion and he couldn't finish it.

No desert because we were too full.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
well, the most expensive French food in Paris is going to cost just as much as in the US, or more. The tasting menu at Guy Savoy is about $300 without wine. Is this better than a tasting menu that costs $100? I bet it is, but I think the curve is nowhere near linear.

Meaning, I doubt Guy Savoy is 3 times as good, however one would define 3 times as good. I think a lot of what you are paying for is the name of the place, and the ambience, and the service, etc. Just the food, which I think Sucker was referring to, is probably not 'better enough' to justify the price.

I think this is true for all kinds of ultra-luxury items. You are often not going to get good value at the top of the food chain. (pun intended /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

KBZ,

I've continued to be unclear I see. I really shouldn't post between 9pm and noon local.

When you go ot Guy Savoy, you bet your ass you're paying for the ambience, the custom made plates, the name, etc. And if you're not happy paying for those things, along with the (nonlinearly) better food, you shouldn't be eating there. If, like JA Sucker appears to be, you're somehow disgusted by the ambience, obviously paying a markup for something that causes you disutility would be silly. As my girlfriend points out "not only your tastebuds are going to the restaurant, you're going for the experience."

When you go to Tru, some of your money is obviously going to pay for the fact that they have to pay for the museum quality art on the walls. When you go to Alinea you have to pay for the fact that they custom make silverware and plates for each dish. And when you go to anyplace in a stand alone mansion, you're helping pay their mortgage, which is clearly higher than rent in some mall.

Casually throwing the word "value" in at the end of your post does you a disservice. I think that as you pay more certainly you start getting decreasing marginal return on your investment, but I don't think I've found a restaurant yet where my marginal return has turned negative - in the high end category. I've been to many places that I would definitely call overpriced, but none of them have been in the category this thread is about. (These tend to be these weird "night club + food" or "small plates" places that are cropping up everywhere.)

[citanul]

Pudge,

Nice report! That place sounds great, at least from your review and pictures. Next time I'm in Toronto (? LOL ?) we'll have to go.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't eat shellfish

I always enjoy calamari

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. . .

[citanul]

7,

squids don't have shells.

[7ontheline]

Yeah, I know. The wiki entry on shellfish states that they are sometimes considered shellfish, sometimes not. I'm just a little surprised because I just don't see a huge difference between shrimp and squid - there's a somewhat similar texture, the taste isn't THAT different, etc.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

C - gotcha, ok that makes sense (speaking specifically about "high-tech" food).

The reason I mentioned Paris is because it is an amazing food city with a strong, deep regional tradition. And bistro fare is simple to execute on. Many bistros will execute on standard dishes as well as a higher-end restaurant, and at much more affordable prices. Haute cuisine is a different story, which speaks to your point. But many haute rest. will feature traditional bistro fare (their spin), and I doubt it's "worth" the price hike.

Let's take for example Guy Savoy - This is some random blog dude's pictures of the 11-course, 285 euro tasting menu (http://www.arthurhungry.com/archives/2005/09/guy_savoy.html)

There are several dishes that leap out as highly replicable / and would be as good at another restaurant - "lobster, crusty and soft, raw and cooked, sauce made from its juices, snap peas, spring onion", the "'chop' of fat turbot with egg and spinach sprouts."

I guess my thinking was along the line of KBZ's - at the end of the day this is food and the "best ingredients", outside of a few luxe items aren't much more expensive... from a "are you getting your money's worth" - paying alot more for that doesn't make much sense.

Also, for the incredible price point hike, I don't believe it's worth it if you are expecting better cooking execution (is the sous chef at Guy Savoy really that much better than at a less expensive establishment?) and presentation (not difficult).

The 2 criteria where it might be worth it to pay more is 1) creativity of the dishes (driven by the executive chef), and of course 2) service.

Overall though I understand your point - the Guy Savoy 11-course tasting menu is insane, and you couldn't get the full breadth of that meal elsewhere, with that level of consistent creativity and execution of dishes, and perfect table service.

-Al

[NT!]

[ QUOTE ]
when you say mid-range, what sort of price range are you talking? I have long thought that nyc is a great city for midrange restaurants, entrees are in the 9-20 price range for many of my favorite places. in fact, I am often shocked at entree prices when I go back home to NC, because I am used to getting the same quality food in nyc at much lower prices.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess i would say something like

low end - under 10 bucks for entrees
mid range - in the 10-25 vicinity
upper mid - 25-40ish
high end - 40+ for a typical entree

this is far from a perfect breakdown but if you figure in apps and desserts that puts the high-end places in roughly the 75+ range for food only.

when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

i don't have a lot of experience eating out in the south at nice places, my family tends to think Romanelli's or Olive Garden is a 'nice' place so i don't have many occasions to compare with in NC.

i would say that the optimal price point in terms of value in the south is probably more towards low and mid range places, whereas where i was living before the best values (for whatever reason) seemed to be in the middle and upper-middle tier joints. does that make any sense? i'm not too sure about NYC yet but i'm guessing that where it excels is in some of the more unusual low and mid range type places - i.e. 'ethnic cuisines', places that depend on high volume and offer specialized menus, etc. your typical NYC diner isn't going to compete very well with a good southern diner because the overhead is so much higher but the food isn't going to be that different.

i'm also guessing that my NYC restaurant experience is fairly crippled by my inexperience with the outer bouroughs and some of the less horrible parts of manhattan.

[NT!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, different preferences I guess. I love being in crowded loud rooms.

If the tables are close together in quiet places it can be a bit of a pain though.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm going somewhere to have some beers, a filthy Monte Cristo and watch a football game, loud and crowded is fun. I'm talking about when you go out to 'dine.' I like to eat with space, quiet, and without being rushed.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
when i used to live in the berkshires i ate in a lot of mid-range and upper-mid, bordering on high-end type places. i would say i got pretty good value in places like this compared to similarly priced places in manhattan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suprised to hear you say this. I've always thought that NYC had the best selection of $15-$25 entrees of any city or place I have visited. in fact I feel like great meals are easier to come by and often cheaper in NYC than Boston.

[Pudge714]

I don't eat shellfish for religious reasons, not taste reasons.

[7ontheline]

Ah, n/m then.

[MEbenhoe]

This thread is so interesting and confusing to me. I have no idea what a &gt;$75/plate restaurant must be like. When I've taken my gf to what is considered the nicest restaurant in La Crosse, the total bill including tip probably ends up around $75. You could order the most expensive appetizer, entree, and dessert in that place and it would still be under $75.

[MrMon]

You might have to head over to Rochester and check out the Red Lobster if you want to take it up a notch. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[NorCalJosh]

I don't suppose we have anyone here who laid down the 25k to take part in that dinner over in bangkok that can give a review?




(link for anyone who didnt read about it)

http://www.chinatownconnection.com/bankok-most-expensive-dinner.htm

[Aloysius]

That's a very expensive meal!

[ QUOTE ]
But Marc Meneau, the chef of L'Esperance restaurant in Vezelay, France, called it a "culinary work of art."

"It's no more shocking than buying a painting that costs $2 million," he said.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh...

-Al

[NorCalJosh]

yeah except for the fact that it ends up in the toilet 12 hours later ya know?

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is so interesting and confusing to me. I have no idea what a &gt;$75/plate restaurant must be like. When I've taken my gf to what is considered the nicest restaurant in La Crosse, the total bill including tip probably ends up around $75. You could order the most expensive appetizer, entree, and dessert in that place and it would still be under $75.

[/ QUOTE ]

even in Boston, an expensive city by most standards, I think there are 3 places where food could cost me &gt; $75 (unless I was really trying to get to $75, or ordering a 5 lb lobster or something). but I'm not really sure, b/c while I go out often, it's not to top tier places.

not included in the above are any of the best steakhouses, where I would normally spend like $40 per entree some split apps for less than $60pp.

according to Zagat, here are the top 10 restuarants in Boston

Oishii
L'Espalier
Aujourd'hui
No. 9 Park
Hamersley's Bistro
Blue Ginger
Mistral
Icarus
Il Capriccio
Oleana

I've been to all of these except:

L'Espalier
Aujourd'hui
No. 9 Park
Il Capriccio

of which the first 3 probably fit into &gt; $75 pp IF you go with the chefs tasting menus, otherwise not. none of the others do, they are more like $35 - $45 entrees + $15 apps, as are No. 9 Park and the other 2 I presume. I normally don't order dessert, and if I did would split it with someone else.

but anyways to your point Meb, I don't think there are many of these places outside of NYC, SF, LA, and mb Chicago I guess. eating a la Carte in Boston, I could easily do &lt; $75 anywhere in the city.

[El Diablo]

KBZ,

I'd say that anywhere that has a tasting menu &gt; $80 fits in here, even if you can do a non-tasting menu meal for less. Basically, I read OP as something like &gt;$100 per person for normal meal for two with a bottle of wine. I am sure Boston has tons of restaurants that qualify as high-end dining.

[citanul]

KBZ,

a friend says

federalist
clio
l'estpalier
spire
radius
blue ginger

and "i'm sure there are more"

the point isn't that there are a ton of these places. these are places that people consider "destinations," and obviously you need population and wealth to support these sorts of places, but seriously, a city doesn't have "few" places if it only has 10 places with $125 tasting menus. there aren't like hundreds and hundreds in the US.

[citanul]

El D,

Indeed the thread originally had pretty bad and nebulous specifications. I thought your post in the middle somewhere where you clarified for me was very good though with respect to what types of place I actually intended. I think that keeping wine/drinks out of the equation is helpful, but basically, I wanted to talk about the class of restaurants that are above the standard:

$8-$12 appetizer
$25-$35 entree
$8-$12

=~$60 for food alone type places that are incredibly common everywhere and the standard of "Friday Night Date for yuppies around the world.

I wanted primarilly to talk about places that are "destination restaurants," usually with tasting menu options, but leave room for other things above the "norm" as well.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

Cit, Diablo,

I didn't mean to nit up this thread with meal definitions. I will be sure to post a review of a fine dining experience I have had lately!

and Cit I think Radius is very expensive and just ok. I think it's more about "hey look at where I take my clients so I can impress them", not in a "it's all about awesome food and service " way.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
and Cit I think Radius is very expensive and just ok. I think it's more about "hey look at where I take my clients so I can impress them", not in a "it's all about awesome food and service " way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of reminds me of Sucker's post... and to the idea of "value".

There are prolly very few, amazing restaurants throughout the country and world that are uncommonly good, with perfect exeuction and service, these "destination restaurants".

But (I haven't been to Radius, but having been an i-banker and VC in NY and SF, and now working in H'wood, have had opp to eat many dinners on the company dime at "fine dining" establishments in 3 major cities) - and alot of these places are only OK to not that good, and you can find comparable to better service and food at more reasonable prices.

This is based on the price range you gave in the OP, and sort of clarified in your most recent post.

-Al

[El Diablo]

All,

Let's get this thread back on track w/ less discussion of what qualifies and more posts about what you love/hate about high-end restaurants and reviews.

High-end is going to be different for everyone. But in general, we're talking about "special occassion" or maybe "once a month date" or "expense account business dinner woohoo!" type places, not the "go out to a nice dinner on Friday night" places.

A ballpark price range for this is something like over $100 per person bill with a basic bottle of wine. But don't get hung up on that, it'll be more expensive in SF and NYC, less expensive in the midwest and south. By now I think people should know what type of places we're talking about here - if you have a gem of a place that is a real dining experience, review it.

OK, enough discussion on this crap.

Quince and Michael Mina reviews from me shortly.

[citanul]

El D,

Nicely put, thanks.

Tru review and probably Spiaggia review coming from me tonight.

[60Vauban]

Due to the nature of my work, I was in a position where I was invited to A Voce by someone who works there. It was a Friday night, and just me for dinner. The menu was chosen by them and I tried everything they put in front of me! I'll list how they came out of the kitchen as they brought me a lot of food. I felt a lot of pressure to eat as much as they sent out because I was there as a guest.


To start - Sardinian sheep's milk ricotta with fresh bread. This tasted like nothing I've ever had before. Fluffy white clouds and it melted in my mouth. I also had their Salami appetizer which was sliced Tuscan sausage. Just like it tastes in Italy.

Next was a surprising mix of mussels with a sausage marinara sauce. I would have never thought these could go together, but the sausage bits were the perfect "kick."

Then I had one of the house specialties, the meat ravioli. These three ravioli were amazing. Just parmesan and tomato and a rich combination of flavors.

The "main" dish was the Quail saltimbocca. Made with lentils, proscuitto and fig this was another combination I hadn't ever considered. They wrap the quail meat in a little roll and then fry it for a second like a spring roll. At this point I was already getting stuffed so I soldiered on through this one, and I wished I could have it the next day.

They let me breathe for a few minutes before serving me the cheese dish. This was served on a japanese style wooden block - 3 choices of cheese and 3 sweet/savory compliments. the compliments were 3 perfect walnuts, 2 dried apricots and a dollop of honey.

For desert the insanity really set in. Three waiters came over, each with a different dish. They brought a cup of sorbet - banana and grape, hot beignets with chocolate and creme fraiche AND a beautiful pannacotta in fig sauce. I ate about half of each of these even though there really wasn't any room to spare. The sorbets were delicate and unusual, and very refreshing after the cheese course. The beignets were like they were in France, so perfect and thinly coated in granulated sugar. The pannacotta was delicious and I would order it again.

I finished the meal with espresso and Faretti Biscotti liqueur at the bar.

Throughout the meal the sommelier was attentive with wine choices. I started with Bortolotti Prosecco and with each dish change a new choice was presented. I would type out the full list but I can't read my writing very well as I was pretty tanked by the end of everything. I do remember the Maculan Dindorello with desert. A sweet wine that went well at the end of the meal.

This is a great restaurant and Bruni's review in the NYT nailed a lot of the high (and low) points. I had amazing service but the two ladies next to me were not happy. It was probably 20 minutes until someone took their order and admittedly they didn't receive the attention they deserved. At one point they asked me if I was a food critic because of the volume of food that was being brought out for just me (and the fact that with each course I had to ask exactly what it was they had just brought). I shared my deserts with them and they were happy again.

I like the decor - Eames management chairs and crimson walls, but it is very loud in there and I think it would be difficult for one to carry on a conversation with a group of more than 4. I would definitely go again even if I wasn't on business.

[Mermade]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to the southern U.S. Not exactly the paragon of classic fine dining culture, restaurants like Commander's Palace notwithstanding.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would disagree w/ you on this. service at private clubs and many great public establishments in the south is attentive bordering on ridiculous. many times i have thought they were going try to give me a slave in a doggy bag to take home. its embarassing, the south is another planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel I must say that I was treated abominably at Commander's Palace and will never go back. I understand that my treatment there was an exception to an overall impeccable reputation. I have had others return from Commander's with amazing stories of kitchen tours, interviews with the executive chef and owners, special courses, etc. My experience was so far from that as to almost seem to describe a different restaurant. My visit was eight years ago and just thinking about it can make my anger rise.

I made reservations months in advance and confirmed twice: once a month after I made the reservation and once the day we left on our trip. The trip was planned to celebrate a special occasion and was my birthday gift to my boyfriend (now turned husband). He'd never been to the city and I was excited to see him experience New Orleans for the first time.

We arrived in the city and I called a final time to let them know we'd arrived. They required this final confirmation from their out of town guests. When I called I was informed that our reservation was not for 11pm but 9pm. They'd bumped it up 2 hours. However, they didn't say that. Instead they tried to tell me I'd mistaken the time of my reservation . This was impossible as I'd made the reservation myself and confirmed twice including the day before. They insisted that it was my mistake and they couldn't accomodate for customer error. They'd seat us at 9pm or not at all.

We got into town at 8pm, so they expected us to be at the restaurant in an hour. We had planned it so we'd have 3--time to get showered and ready at a leisurely pace. Instead we threw on our clothes and jumped in a cab.

We got there on time, when we entered the restaurant we had to stand around. Two front house staff were talking at the front desk. I had to interrupt to tell them our name. Now this next thing had me seething... They said "You? YOU'RE Ms. Mermade?" They repeated my last name several times sort of incredulously. Tacky and culturally insensitive. I've born better treatment growing up with a Brazilian surname in the rural Midwest than I did at this high end restaurant. They sounded positively backward.

After this they lead us to our table. We saw now why they bumped up the reservation, the place was empty but for 2 tables. Obviously they didn't want to stay open until 11 just for us. Now restaurants sometimes ask customers to make these adjustments, but they ought to be apologetic about it. I've certainly never had a restaurant so clearly lie about the situation. They should say, "I'm sorry we are now unable to seat you at 11, but can take you at 9. We apologize for the incovenience." They had plenty of opportunity as well to let me know in advance and did not. They damn well should have been honest, they should have made it up to me, instead they lied to make it appear my mistake, and I was not even treated civilly.

Our table situation was at the front of the restaurant rubbing elbows with the people next to us. We could hear every word of their conversation and vice versa. We were cramped in an empty restaurant.

We ordered the full tasting menu with wine pairings. Our server showed visible displeasure. The entire vibe of the whole evening was that the place was dead and they wanted us out of there as soon as possible. We were in their way. They then proceeded to make our experience miserable.

Our courses came out as fast as they could get them out. They tried to pull plates while we were still eating off of them. They brought the next wine while we were still eating the previous course. They actually pushed my salad course to the side to set down the next course. We tried politely to ask them to slow down service, but they did not.

The fish course had been steamed in parchment. When the server brought it out he was accompanied by 3 or 4 other people. He announced (did not ask) that he would be demonstrating the technique for these other servers. He then proceeded to botch it badly, sawing at the paper with a knife, at a stand set too close me as I was sitting at the table. In graduate school I was a server at a high end restaurant and had done this tableside myself many times before. It was just completely amateur.

This was eight years ago and I'm still spitting mad. I had set it up for night to remember and my husband found the food average and experience unpleasant . There was no upside to this story either. The trip was planned around this one restaurant experience. Our time in New Orleans was brief. I had no opportunity to rescue the trip from being a complete disappointment.

Cliff notes: Commander's Palace is place of great reputation, but my experience there makes me justifiably hate it with a fierce passion. I feel I was treated abominably and will never go back.

[El Diablo]

Mermade,

That sounds horrible. Did you speak to a manager about it afterwards or were you too mad/disappointed to even think of that? Honestly, if I were you, I'd print out that post and send it to them now, 8 years later. Just to let them know.

[Mermade]

El Diablo--

I didn't speak to the manager. I was just too angry to speak about it in the moment. I was also trying to keep it as light and as enjoyable for my boyfriend as I could. I didn't want to further damper what was supposed to be our special night with an unpleasant exchange.

Later, I wasn't in the mood for hollow apologies and there was nothing they could do to rectify the situation. We left New Orleans the next morning, and I had already resolved never to set foot in the restaurant again. Of course, it would have been nice to have the meal comped. That is the least they could have done, but I believed at the time and later that it just wasn't worth it.

[PITTM]

My girlfriend and i are going to the melting pot (pdf menu) (http://www.meltingpot.com/Austintx/images/Austin,%20TXAustin3.pdf) for our 6 month anniversary. It was her idea but i think it sounds really awesome, not only as a delicious dinner, but as a kinda romantic thing. I've read some reviews, and while it seems to be a chain it typically seems to get great reviews, especially for the service and atmosphere parts of the meal. has anyone been here before? Or any fondue restaurant? I'm pretty excited and i would like to hear a bit more.

[Fast Food Knight]

I love the melting pot. Definitely do the oil broth for the meat in my opinion, yeah it's bad for you, but the flavor is WAY better than the other broths.

Also make sure you do a cheese, meat, AND dessert. The salad is forgettable.

[citanul]

Pitt,

While I had a pretty awful experience at the melting pot, and haven't really found much distinction between any 2 random fondue places, the melting pot does a good job of being a chain with some class to it, that serves food competently, that is tasty, etc. I think one thing I really learned was that it's definitely not a place to go with more than 2 people. totally agree on the salad as well. things come out tasty but i always have the suspicion that if somene else had done the cooking on the main dish, it would taste better. thus, as they should be, i think, the cheese and dessert are the stars of the show, and at the melting pot, i was not disappointed.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]
I love the melting pot. Definitely do the oil broth for the meat in my opinion, yeah it's bad for you, but the flavor is WAY better than the other broths.

Also make sure you do a cheese, meat, AND dessert. The salad is forgettable.

[/ QUOTE ]

for sure, i think we;re just gonna do the big night out thing or whatever, where its like 88 dollars and you get everything. any ideas for a good wine pairing with fondue?

['Chair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I love the melting pot. Definitely do the oil broth for the meat in my opinion, yeah it's bad for you, but the flavor is WAY better than the other broths.

Also make sure you do a cheese, meat, AND dessert. The salad is forgettable.

[/ QUOTE ]

for sure, i think we;re just gonna do the big night out thing or whatever, where its like 88 dollars and you get everything. any ideas for a good wine pairing with fondue?

[/ QUOTE ]

I suck at wine, but I would just pick something you like...maybe even google for common pairings with your proteins (sirloin &amp;or fillet/lobster/shrimp if you are doing the big night out). Don't ask the server's opinion (its just not that kind of place).


stuff your mushrooms and then batter them...yummmmmmmmmm

[gumpzilla]

I'm not a Melting Pot fan. I think for the amount of money/time you spend (I recall it being a pretty lengthy dinner), you could do a lot better just about always.

[PITTM]

[ QUOTE ]

I suck at wine, but I would just pick something you like...

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the problem, i suck at wine too and have no idea what i like. someone else always ends up ordering.

[Eagles]

Something to add on pudge's review he didn't eat the shrimp cocktail but it was great. The shrimp are gigantic you only get 3 with this cocktail but they're probably 4-6oz. They're just served with cocktail sauce but they're very high quality and delicious.

Also I never really ate foiegras until recently and I can't believe I didn't it's just fantastic.

[hanster]

is LA very limited in terms of high end dining? seems like only LFS have mentioned the city in general. If possible could anyone give some reviews besides LFS's restaurants (which i will check out soon)? I've been to geisha house and porter bistro and stinkin roses but these just seem to be what college students consider "high end (fine) dining"

[Aloysius]

Hanster - I linked to this, but prolly got lost in the thread. It's an old review I did of AOC (sometime last year). Myself and Limon have mentioned other LA places worth checking out.
___________________________

Thought I'd post a trip report to this restaurant, as it enjoys immense popularity but is expensive:

I took my friend Aileen for a belated birthday dinner to A.O.C. (Appellation d'Origine Contrôllée). This is a very image conscious restaurant, and they try hard to cultivate a “sleek, modern, vibrant” dining experience. It is often referred to as a “food and wine bar”, and for walk-ins, there is a full-length bar where I believe the entire menu is available. However, most people go for the formal dining experience and you need reservations (there is a downstairs dining area that bleeds into the bar, and an upstairs dining room).

I’ve been twice before, but not in a year, so based on hearing some recent negative reviews of the place I was curious to check it out again.

Getting Seated / 1st Impressions: Walking in, the “energy” in the room was palpable. This is not necessarily a good thing, as it was fairly loud, but this is the by-product of the downstairs dining area and the bar residing in the same room. (It is much quieter upstairs IIRC, but fairly cramped.) Pretty "industry" crowd. Guys wearing blazers, chicks looking nice etc.

The décor, as in my previous visits, was standard “modern-chic” with a lot of whites accented by beige and dark woods. Completely unoffensive, very uninspired. But you know, pretty good-looking overall. There was a long line of people waiting for tables / seats at the bar. Despite being ~20 minutes late for our 8:15 reservation, we were promptly seated downstairs.

The Food: A.O.C. features a “small plate” menu (French, some Mediterranean elements) broken out by charcuterie, fish, meat, vegetables. They range in price from $8-$18 dollars a plate. They also have a fairly extensive cheese selection ($5 for 1, $15 for 3 cheeses). My friend and I decided to order 5 plates, a cheese and a bottle of wine.

Here is their full menu. (http://www.aocwinebar.com)

Here’s what we ordered:

Wine – 2001 Stags Leap Cab (Isley)
Cheese - Everona Pirdmont Rapidan-Virginia , a sheep’s milk cheese from Dirty Jerse, sold to us as “very rare” and “nutty"
Fish - Black cod, celery root, sunchokes and hazelnuts
Other Seafood – Dungeness crab gratin
Fowl - Grilled quail, foie gras and porcini sauce
Meat - Veal saltimbocca with madeira brown butter
Other - Sweet potatoes with bacon and romesco

The food is brought out 1 or 2 plates at a time (can’t remember how it went in a larger group, maybe 2 plates at a time). Once you finished the plate(s), there's maybe a 10-minute downtime in-between.

The wine was brought out before the food started coming, and was great. Recommended by a waiter and not sommelier (note: I am not a huge wine guy, but my friend is a big wine drinker and was pleased by the choice).

Cheese came out first – $5 gets you a reasonable sized slice of cheese and some bread. As promised, it had a strong nutty component (it was a harder cheese) and was OK. Next up was the Black cod. I have to say, A.O.C. does fish *really* well. It was f’in delicious. The fish was cooked just through (perfectly) and the hazelnuts were an awesome complement both taste-wise and texture-wise. Easily my friend and mine’s favorite dish.

Crab comes – it is basically fresh steamed crab with a “gratin” topping. The whole concoction has been baked, and it’s really dry-looking. We ask for some lemons, which they promptly bring, makes this OK dish alot better.

Next up the veal and quail (they come at the same time). The veal, which promised a “Madeira brown butter sauce”, was basically just a veal cutlet on top of rosemary mashed potatoes. I asked the waiter if they forgot to sauce the thing, and he said “no, it’s very subtle”. WTF. This was easily the worst dish.

The quail was very good, and ended up being great cause of the foie gras and awesome porcini sauce. Final dish - sweet potatoes. Got the job done, and was an interesting mix of flavors. (I have no idea how they decide the order of dishes, but intuitively, you’d think the sweet potatoes would come earlier).

Service: Out waiter was great – attentive without being obtrusive. Also the plates were cleared quickly, the food came out in a timely fashion, water was re-filled constantly. Pretty much the level of service you’d expect from a fairly expensive restaurant.

Other: Lighting is very good for an intimate type setting and convo. Although it's louder downstairs because of the bar, it's not super noticeable. Comfortable all-around experience, not too cramped.

Overall: Again, I came for the food, so much of my reason for coming back is based on that. Overall, this time the food “got the job done”, but didn’t blow me away (except for the Cod and Quail). We were “sated” but not “stuffed” based on the number of plates we ordered.

However, the menu is so extensive, plate selection is critical, and with a larger group, a much greater chance obviously of hitting all the great ones. From past visits, I thought their coq au vin, grilled lamb, halibut, and charcuterie items were great. With good / lucky selection, you can have a great-tasting meal.

If you're expecting an overall better than 8/10 for the price, you'll probably be dissapointed by this place.

Food: 7.5/10 (past visits were 8.5 &amp; 9/10 due to better selection)
Service: 8/10 (though this was a Thursday)
Decor / "Look": 7.5/10
Chick Factor: 8.5/10 (I would say because it’s expensive, it’s not a great early date place, but is probably a good 3rd -5th date place if you really like the girl. My friend was very satisfied by the meal, the overall experience, and really liked the variety element of small-plate eating).
Damage: Came out to $170 all-in (I gave a &gt;15% tip).

-Al

[octopi]

I know that most of you aren't really in the position to make it to Calgary (which is like Houston, but with snow, I guess) but I thought I would review a restaurant I ate at last weekend nonetheless.

Calgary is an oil rich city that is currently in the middle of a boom. There are tonnes of specialty food shops opening (in addition to the tasting menu we indulged in, my boyfriend and I also tried two hot dog shops and tried to make it to a cupcake bakery) and basically there is money falling off of trees. There have been some new entries into high end dining, so we drove three hours to visit some friends and indulge in an evening of fine food.

The place was recommended by a school friend of my boyfriend, neither one of us had heard of the place before (which is surprising!). There are not many places in Alberta where you can indulge in a tasting menu, so I would say that was the main draw. We seemed to be the only ones partaking that evening.

Muse (http://www.muserestaurant.ca/) :: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
5-7-9 dish tasting menus ($75-120 CDN, wine pairing another $40 or so) plus daily entrees and other selections. (Being so high on food, I forgot to check out their a la carte menu upon leaving. Mains run $25-40 CDN)

The place is extremely intimate, but spread out over three floors. It was a holiday weekend and a bit busier than I thought it would be, but noise levels were manageable and even romantic. My date and I were still able to indulge in people watching, something we love to do (there appeared to be a young couple there on an early date. I wonder how it went!). We could see the kitchen from where we sat, so I would get excited whenever I saw our next dish being plated.

Our server was very friendly- almost playful, and made the experience extremely fun. He was never intrusive, and always had answers to our questions or would find out the answer for us. I think he spied me taking notes on the courses, so he gave us a copy of the menu and wrote all the wines on the back. At the end of our three hour+ meal, the executive chef came out to meet us...it was kind of like dining at a friend's house on extremely fancy food. It lacked pretentiousness and any air of false sophistication. Which is nice, because Alberta's main interests in food are chains like the Olive Garden and the Keg. It would be easy to become stuck up, I imagine.

Anyhow, the dishes were as such, including the wine we were served. I don't think I'll comment on each course because sometimes there isn't much to say.

Moments upon being seated, a warm bowl of popcorn dressed with truffle oil, Maldon salt and freshly cracked pepper arrived. It was an extremely decadent snack I would be pleased to eat at the next movie I saw. Our first wine was a prosecco from Italy: Nino Franco Rustico.

Amuse bouche: Portabella Mushroom Soup with Truffled Foam

1: Seared Tiger Prawn with Nicoise Olive Coulis and Parsley Oil
Wine: Paul Zinck Pinot Gris 2003

2: Pan Seared Ahi Tuna on a bed of Fennel Slaw with Orange Vinaigrette
Wine: Saxenburg Sauvignon Blanc 2005

3: Prosciutto Wrapped Veal Sweetbreads, Grilled Portabella, Warm Diced Golden Beets and Spinach Puree
Wine: Hunter Valley Chardonnay 2003

4: Quebec Seared Foie Gras in a 'Jelly Sandwich': Homemade Brioche with Alsace jelly and Veal Jus
Wine: Hill of Content Pinot Noir (?)

5: Spinach Stuffed Roast Quail, Purple Potato mash and Red Wine Quail Jus
Wine: Ten Mile Shiraz (this seems a big vague)

6: Braised Veal Cheek, Forest Mushroom Ravioli upon melted Leeks

Sorbet: Pink Grapefruit with Basil syrup and Mint chiffonade (the texture and flavours of this were amazing)

7: A four dish dessert tasting of White Chocolate Panna Cotta, Chocolate Brulee, Frozen Chocolate Mousse and Sour Cream Ice Cream
Dessert Wine: Moscato d'Asti 'Vigna Senza Nome' 2005

I have to say that the meal went pretty much as our server described: "It's just going to build and build until *claps hands together*" The first few dishes seemed thrown together, and lacked cohesiveness. We were worried. Then, things picked up. Mushrooms and earthy flavours really dominated the meal, which was fortunate since we both enjoy the flavours, but could have been a trainwreck, otherwise.

The star pieces were the sweetbreads and the "sandwich" which blew both of us away. The veal cheek was nothing to poo poo either. The prawn dish and opening soup were quite disappointing, actually. The prawns were too garlicky and overdone (but the olive coulis was amazing) and the soup a bit bland. The truffled foam really saved it.

I was pleased with dessert on the whole, even if the serving was a bit too large. I make a better mousse, I must say. I had overhead that the ice cream was sour cream for the evening, and when I asked if it could possibly be true (I LOVE sour cream) they substituted it on the dessert platter, without even being asked.

I am not knowledgable about wine at all, but really enjoyed the dessert wine we got. Not overkill and too syrupy as dessert wines sometimes are, but delicious and light, like honey. We were even allowed to finish the bottle. I'm not sure what the usual deal is with wine pairings. I like that you can try many different kinds, but typically are they at a higher price range than most glasses on the menu? Most of the bottles in our pairing sell in stores for $12-15, which surprised me. Is this standard? Are pairings a rip off?

Anyhow, it was an extremely enjoyable evening, and I think that the friendliness and openess of the kitchen will probably beg a return visit in the future, possibly with more requests on our part.

[ElSapo]

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9174/menuyy5.jpg

My girlfriend and I did this wine pairing last night. The winemaker was there and seating was done communally. There were basically three long tables and about 40 people overall.

The price was $90, not including tax and tip. Not a bad deal, I thought, given that you taste six wines and have a decent meal. The food was solid but not great. I think that comes from trying to time 40 plates to come out about right.

The amuse course was fun - served with a plastic "spork" stuck into the arincini (traditionally this is fried risotto in a ball, though this was more of a puree). The parfait was served in a small plastic cup. Both were really good.

The foie gras was probably my favorite course. The tart cherry compote (is was more of a thick sauce really, streaked across the plate) really worked with the rich, buttery foie gras. When you combined the two flavors they elevated each other. At first I thought the wine was a mistake, as it didn't seem crisp enough to cut through (it was semi-sweet but with a dry finish), but after a couple of bites it all worked much better together. I think it's amazing how a wine's flavor seems to change as you drink and eat more.

The risotto was a good dish, but it came out merely warm - otherwise it was excellent. The prawns were excellent. I wasn't a huge fan of the Nebbiolo; seemed a little thin for my taste, but it was a good match with the rich risotto.

The third course was merely ok. The sirloin was cooked to medium (a little too done for me, but oh well, we weren't asked) and the braised shortrib was tender and flavorful. The course just seemed like an afterthought, if that makes sense - almost a letdown after the two before. The parsnip puree was excellent though.

HOWEVER, the Block 11 Cab was phenomenol. Big and bold and well balanced. It seemed a shame to taste it next to the Zin, which was completely overwhelmed. The Block 11 sells for somewhere around $45 or $50, while the other wines are around half that.

The Dessert was oddly not accompanied by a wine selection or drink, which seemed odd. It was good, but just average really. Solid but not spectacular, and like the beef plate seemed oddly out of place.

Overall, this meal was sort of incongruous. Some good wines, some good dishes, but it didn't really gel as a whole. That probably has everything to do with it being a 40-person tasting. Overall, I was really happy. And damn, I want that Cab again...

[firstyearclay]

Having lived in Vegas for 3.5 years I have had some of the best food in town. This review and most of my reviews are centered towards two things. One, I love food, and I love to eat the classics and try new things. Food is Numero Uno. Two, I love the experience. This can be a different level of service, a beautiful location, a nice view, in a nice part of a city/town, ________(fill in the blanks). I don’t just leave it to food, but food makes up 80% of the experience imo.

I would be lying if I didn’t say there is a level of bias in my review here because I know the Exec Chef Geno Bernardo, very well. He comes from a long line of Italian food, has worked in a plethora of food landscapes, and is a all-around HOF. He recently took over as Executive Chef @ "Nove" (http://nove-las-vegas.n9negroup.com/) in the Fantasy Tower in the Palms Casino in Las Vegas.

In January, I was making my routine trip to Vegas for friends and fun when I called Geno to see what he was up to tonight. Being in my own world, I completely forgot he was working and obviously wouldn’t answer. I was plotting a night out with my new “I drink Scotch now” Jacket on. Two minutes later Geno calls me back and says he is going to be off the hook busy because he has 160 people coming in for dinner. Apparently this large group booked late and was on their way in. I wanted to come down and check the place out for a drink before meeting friends at the Hard Rock so I made my way down to the Palms by 11pm.

I was escorted to the elevator that takes you up to what I think is the second from the top floor of the Fantasy Tower. When you walk in you are immediately taken back by the huge “Palms” sign that is brilliant through the back windows of the restaurant. (Their is a nice preview on the N9ne Group restaurant website that will show you all of these pictures.) I was immediately taken back by the décor. The restaurant is gorgeous with rich browns, purples, cheetah skin, brown leather backed chairs and STUNNING views of Flamingo drive and LV boulevard. I went right to the bar and sat in front of 3 bottles of Macallan. (In the shot of the bar in the Nove Photos section, you can clearly see the three bottles: 12, 18, 25 years.) Having been 2 weeks into my new found passion for alcohol, I jumped in and asked for a glass of the 18 year Macallan. What a night that was. Trip Report for a different forum different-time.

Fast forward to Tuesday night. I feel like [censored] because of the recycled air on the plane, the dry air in Vegas, the 36 drinks on the previous Friday, and the 147 bong-hits I took over the weekend, but I soldier on for drinks and to catch up with Geno.

I take one of my close friends in with me to enjoy the experience. It was moderately packed. We ordered some scotch to start and the appetizers started flowing.

We had:

Antipasti

Crudo – Italian Sashimi, olive oil, herbs, sea salts
Salumi – cured meats, olives, pecorino cheeses, ciabatta
Lagostino’s - Italian Shrimp
Federal Hill Calamari – banana peppers, lemon

These were all amazing. The combination probably was too much, too fast, but Geno meant for us to try everything instead of stuffing ourselves. I couldn’t stop eating. The Lagostino’s were amazing!

Insalate:

Caesar – split for 2.
Winter Caprese – roasted tomatoes, pesto mozzarella di bufala

Both normal as you would expect at a high-end restaurant.

Second Piatti

Tuna – Seared rare, Capanota, Barolo wine
Veal – Osso Bucco Milanese, saffron risotto

Both ridiculous. I have a true passion for Osso Bucco and it was one of the top 3 I have ever had. My friend destroyed the tuna and said it was sushi-grade. I tried one bite and thought it was good, I just couldn’t really rate it because it was seared instead of raw.

Sides –
Asparagus, balsamico
Italian broccoli, parmigano

Geno’s Black Truffle Polenta, cracked pepper, pecorino

I can’t even explain how stuffed I am at this point. I had to try the Polenta even though I have had his before (made at home /images/graemlins/laugh.gif). This is a must order imo. If you go here it should be up their on the menu as a special along with his 3 lb lobster (labeled The Big Sicilian), Nove Spaghetti (lobster, shrimp, crab, scallop, calamari, basil), and the “Sunday Gravy”. This should be "Chef Geno’s Sunday Gravy" because I know the kid can make a sauce and meatballs that would knock your dick in the dirt.

We declined on dessert before Geno came charging out for us to try one more thing. If I remember correctly, it was a Crème Fraiche Gelato with strawberries. It was gorgeous.

The meal was world class in every way. The restaurant is all Glitter Gulch-Vegas at its best. Might be one of the top three places in all of Las Vegas to start your night at.

Zagat gave it a great initial review with no ratings yet.

This is my 500th post and 2nd review in this thread.

fyc

[citanul]

Tru, Chicago, ~$150 for food, 2006

I tried the internet reservation system for Tru a couple weeks before I wanted to dine there, and was not incredibly surprised to find that reservations were unavailable for the dates I wanted. I called on the phone to find out how far in advance I should actually be looking, and found out that in fact the kitchen table was available for the evening in question. The kitchen table is a few dollars more expensive than dining in the main room, but you get more plates. You also don't really get a pre-prepared menu. The chefs change things that they bring you based on your responses to previous dishes, at least a little bit. I was pretty excited.

We walked in the door, checked our coats, and then were led in to the bar area (now removed to make room for a "lounge" where there is a seperate menu from the rest of the place. We got a couple glasses of champagne and sat for a bit (we were early, they were not late). In the lounge we were pretty shocked to see art such as Venus (http://www.trurestaurant.com/art/venus.html), and Somebody's Mother (http://www.trurestaurant.com/art/somebodys.html) (which I'd really like to find a print of, but I don't think they exist), as well as a couple others. When we got a chance to see the main diningroom, we saw the rest of the art some of which (http://www.trurestaurant.com/art/art_gallery.html) is listed here, but not close to all.

I'd really wanted to eat at a kitchen table ever since I'd heard seen the table at Charlie Trotters. At Trotters, the table for 2 or 4 is in the small, efficient kitchen, just feet from the chefs. Tru is significantly different. When the table was ready and we were done with our champagne, they led us to the table. The kitchen is immense. Huge, spacious, basically like 3 kitchens stuck next to each other, one for sauces, one for meats I think, one for other stuff, then another space entirely for staging and plate prepping. This doesn't even count the large amount of space off to the side for custom dishes, etc. The chef's table is in a seperate room off the back of the kitchen. Next to it is a room a little larger which is the dedicated dessert kitchen. Through the meal what we found was that the books that the restaurant has for sale are kept in this room, as well as certain platters and silverware and decanters and such, so people had to walk through quite a few times to get these things. This kinda sucked. Two other problems I had with being in the kitchen room: 1) To ge to the washroom, you had to be escorted across the kitchen by someone who would then wait outside the room for you to escort you again 2) Because of the seclusion of the room, every time the waiter approached the table it felt like we had to be a good audience. (2) there isn't really as bad as it sounds, it was just a touch awkward, and from what I've heard of dining in the main room, this awkwardness doesn't happen at all.

My memory of the entire meal isn't all that fantastic since it was about a year ago but I will try:

We sat and ordered a nice bottle of Spanish white wine that was suggested as "able to go with the whole menu." Soon after we were brought an amuse bouche, which since my menu doesn't say what it was, I have no idea what it was.

Next up was the signature "Caviar Staircase." I'm a big fan of caviar, and a presentation of I think 4 nice caviars, with all of the traditional accompaniments (except vodka) is a great way to start a meal.

At this point my GF and my menus diverged because she is a Fish only type vegetarian:

I next had a Wagyu tartar with caper berries, white anchoy, quail egg, and a consomme gelee, which is one of the more awesome things I've ever eaten. Meanwhile my girlfriend who likes all of those ingredients except the beef sadly had her Yellow Fin with tapenade, potato confit, beans and radish. This was basically the most plain thing to come out of the kitchen during the evening. It was still good, just a bit bland.

A note: Tru will not only offer women a wrap if they are chilly, they have these little cube furniture pieces for putting next to your chair and putting your purse on so you don't have to leave it on the floor. I think that's pretty awesome.

Next up, for me a fairly traditionalish Foie Gras with brioche "french" toast, banana chutney, and a chocolate sauce. Just a really nice prepatation of foie gras. All great pieces that go well together, and everything was just the right sweetness, texture, and level of cooked. My date had possibly the best plate of the evening at this point though: Poached lobster riotto, gemelli pasta, wild mushrooms, pesto, parmesan. It was at this point we started getting really worried about our ability to actually eat everything brought to us. Everything was really great so far, but a fairly significant sized portion of gooey, fantastic risotto is usually well, dinner, and then you go hibernate. (A variation on this dish was served on the Trumanto/Gand Iron Chef.)

Then we had soups served in designer coffee cups (also as seen on TV):

I can't remember who got served which, but I think we both tried both. Pumpkin soup with an amaretto reduction and toasted seeds, and porcini mushroom cappuccino with a parmesan crisp. Light, small, great smells and presentation, and at this time we were given a touch of digesting time. Very good timing for that.

I then had a roasted sturgeon with braised oxtail an a carrot puree which I don't really remember anything about. GF had Roast halibut with red and green apple salad and arugula. She really really liked this, and told the waiter that she especially liked one of the types of green apples that she had never had before, the waiter told her what kind it was and explained that it isn't readily available at grocery stores.

We continued with "main course:" I had a Venison loin with fennel, walnuts and dried grapes with Elk jus. (I find Elk jus to be like, hilarious for some reason.) I thought this was amazing and just perfect in basically every way. I was however, happy to know that this was the last of the "real food" courses. GF had Roaseted spiced hamachi with camargue rice, toasted macadamias, and an apple-ginger jus, topped with shavings of the apples she liked from the previous dish. She says this was definitely the second best thing after the risotto.

At this point we were left alone for a touch to talk, and did that. All the time btw we can watch everything happening in both kitchens through huge windows in the walls of our room.

When the cheese guy came around, we were ready to eat again. We had a selection of great cheeses, with GF of course picking her standard selection of the stinkiest cheeses she could find.

Next up was a palate cleansing cherry lemonade, which oddly, though only 1.5oz or so, I thought was one of the best things I put in my mouth all night. It was just perfect cherry lemonade, great tartness and sweetness, and all the stinky cheese taste gone.

Dessert at Tru is a multi-course tour. I remember having a rootbear float with like, cardamom icecream (Gand has her own line of rootbeer), there was a tart or crisp, and I think also a small molten center chocolate cake, and I think some version of a Trifle. (These are not listed, and if GF comes home and reminds me of other desserts I will edit.)

Just when we thought we were done with desserts, a guy comes by with a cart. The cart has every available surface covered with different candies, chocolates, lollipops, and truffles. He tells us to take anything we want. We take a sickening amount of chocolates and truffles and brittles and etc, and he makes sure that we take lollipops because he really likes them.

After all this we did the whole leaving thing, which was pretty depressing. Also because we had the longest menu and were seated at the last seating time, we were like the second to last party in the restaurant. As we got our coats and they hailed us a cab they gave us a parting gift! Accompanied by a card explaining that the idea was that the experience didn't have to be over yet, they gave us little packets containing a couple canneles (or cannelles, i can't remmeber) which are these little fantastic pastry things that take days to prepare.

Basically everything all night was just about perfect. Tru was the first of the high-end places I'd been to where they expect you to leave incredibly full. It's a different kind of ethic or whatever than most of the placse. I'm not sure if they expect you to clean every plate, but they definitely expect everyone to enjoy everything that is brought to them. The food is obviously not experimental, but is executed flawlessly, uses great ingredients, and occasionally surprises you with flavor combinations.

I've since been back for their dessert only seating, which is something like $35 for a 3 or 5 course dessert, and that also was great. I suggest Tru to anyone who wants to head out and be blown away by great food, great service, and doesn't mind a bit of expense. I do, however, recommend sitting in the main diningroom instead of the kitchen.

citanul

[El Diablo]

Michael Mina (http://www.michaelmina.net/michaelmina/about.html)

Michael Mina was chef/partner in one of my favorite restaurants in SF, Aqua. He left that a few years ago to start his own restaurant empire (http://www.michaelmina.net/index.html).

I was very excited to try this, because it was one of my favorite chefs doing a style (small plate tasting menus w/ trios of different preparations) that I really enjoy.

This was a couple or few years ago, a few months after they opened.

The restaurant is in a hotel in Union Square. It's right off the lobby, so straight off the bat it feels a little more hotel-y than optimal. Hard to describe, but it feels more focused on being expensive and impressive to business travelers and tourists (I've found this to be the case at a number of places in hotels) as opposed to really being all about the restaurant.

We sit down, and the first thing I notice is that it's just way too loud. Annoyingly so.

Then we get our options. A few different levels of tasting menus. We did the full tasting menu (http://www.michaelmina.net/michaelmina/menus_tasting.html), which at the time was $120. This was quite annoying, as standard at the time was around $100 for this level of dining. Now they've increased to $135.

When presented, one of us needed a course sub'd for something else due to allergy or something. They said that was fine, but then suggested what they'd change it to and said that selection would be a $10 supplement. Weak. Also, somewhere in the middle of the courses there was an option to have something (I don't recall what, but it was not something incredibly special or anything) that was another $10 or $15 supplement. These little touches just seemed chintzy at a place where we are paying $120/per before wine.

The concept for this menu is that everything is presented in trios, three preparations of the same ingredient. So, a seared foie gras, a foie gras terrine, and something else. This was very cool in a few spots, but also resulted in getting pretty small tastes of the best stuff. In a lot of courses, there were one or two preparations that made sense and a third that clearly felt like "damn, gotta come up with a third preparation." Overall, I only recall two courses that were really "wow" - I believe they were scallops and beef. Everything was good, but generally most of the stuff was just that, good. I recall the poultry dish (some sort of game hen I believe) being very ordinary. Just not what I'm expecting from this level of restaurant.

Service was overall quite good.

We pay and get our parking validated. We go to the garage and present our ticket to the attendant. That's when I notice the sign, something like "Valet $20, $15 w/ restaurant validation." Hahahaha, how ridiculous. $5 off. I don't care if I have to pay for parking, that is fine. But just forget about the whole parking validation thing if you're just gonna give a $5 discount, what a joke.

So, all in all, not a place I would recommend at all. I think it's a place worth going if you're on a business dinner, as it is a somewhat unique experience, but definitely not one I'd pay for for a special occassion.

[shemp]

Thanks for the Mina review. I've looked in a couple of times and thought the place looked uninvited. Kind of an east coast* formality/stuffiness that seemed out of place. I don't know. Too big. Too boxy. I see there's a practical effect with the acoustics that doesn't surprise me.

I guess the one thing I'm not sure of is why you say it is worth a try on a business dinner.

[*I love the east coast and all things east coast and mean no injury -- I'm just reaching for a description of the vibe.]

[El Diablo]

shemp,

"I guess the one thing I'm not sure of is why you say it is worth a try on a business dinner."

Just because the trio thing makes it a somewhat unique experience. And the dinner itself is good. It's just not very good imo for the price. So, I would never recommend it to someone as a place to go when they or a friend are paying. However, for someone who is going out on business expense dinner all the time and tries all sorts of good restaurants, this trio concept is likely to be a new experience. But, yeah, there are tons of far less expensive restaurants in SF that I recommend over this.

[citanul]

Spiaggia, ~$100/head pre-tax, tip, drinks, Chicago, 2007

A couple weekends ago I had the pleasure of eating at Spiaggia. I've been meaning to have dinner there for a while, but hadn't come up with a great reason. When a couple of friends said they were coming out to visit I decided that we'd go. I then made my friend a bet at 10-1 on his $50 that I would play 100k hands in January, and if he won the money would go to dinner. I got mono in January and lost. Then the friend bailed at the last minute (he forgot his gf's birthday was that weekend, lol?) as penalty, we used "his" money to go to Spiaggia.

So the three of us went to Spiaggia (2 girls and me, go me). The wine list at Spiaggia is Italian. The girls started with "the best prosecco I've ever had," while I started with probably my least favorite moscato I've ever had, both off of the by the glass list. (The prosecco was really quite nice. The moscato wasn't sweet, or bubbly, or anything elese that makes moscato interesting at all.) We were seated next to a family group celebrating an old-dude's birthday, so we chatted a little bit about the weirdness of a like 6 year old and a 9 year old having dinner at Spiaggia. They were drinking shirley temples.

The waiter came over and took our orders, and found out that GF is a vegetarian.

Amuse:

Me/Friend: Salami with fennel
GF: Cuttlefish egg

Appetizers:

GF: Traditional Sardinian carta di musica layered with tomato, Fiore Sardo cheese, basil and a poached quail egg

Friend: Langoustines with green beans, Chef’s Garden micro coriander, coriander seeds and Cappezzana Extra Virgin Olive Oil

Me: Wood-roasted sea scallop with guanciale, Umbrian purgatory bean puree, Chef’s Garden micro rapini and truffle vinaigrette

Pasta:

GF/Friend: (ravioli) Handcrafted pecorino filled pasta with chestnuts and fresh Umbrian black truffles

Me: (agnolotti) Handcrafted veal filled pasta with fennel pollen and crispy veal breast

Protein:

GF/Friend: Wood-roasted filet of turbot with sunchoke puree, trumpet royale mushrooms and mushroom veal reduction

Me: Wood-roasted filet mignon with marrow and herb crust, hen of the woods mushrooms, roasted red pearl onions and purple potato puree

Cheeses:

Some stinky cheeses, none of them available in stores in Chicago =( including an aged Fontina, a brie type cheese with goat's milk, and a truffle laced cheese.

Dessert:

GF: Semifredo
Me: Sort of a beignet thing
Friend: can't recall
Served with small truffles and such

All enjoyed with a nice Italian white that you can't find online without ordering it from Rome =(

The stars of the show were:

My appetizer: absolutely perfectly done seared scallop. I know, I know, it's not hard to make a great seared scallop as long as you start with fresh scallops, but really, perfectly done. The girls had nice appetizers but the scallop was clean, perfectly prepared seafood.

Their pasta: While the veal-two-ways pasta was quite nice (and all posta is handmade), the girls truffle pasta was just out of this world. The truffle wasn't overpowering which is often a problem with truffles in general, and somehow they made a creamy smooth filling out of chestnuts and truffles. Great sauce, great pasta, great filling.

Entrees: They were both great. I liked my filet, they liked the turbot. The filet is obviously more of something like what you can get somewhere else (though the marrow/herb crust was really good), it was what I was in the mood for. The turbot with atypical vegetables was really really good. Well prepared mushrooms of types you don't see every day can be just so good.

The cheeses were fantastic, though I wish they had given us more accompaniments. But we did learn that one can dine at the bar and just order cheeses, and if you ask, the cheese guy will match wines for you to each cheese.

The desserts were easilly the most disappointing part of the night. my dessert was basically a whipped cream covered pastry ball filled with cold mouse of some sort. While tasty it was hard to eat and gave the impression of having been made earlier that day. I was expecting like, beignets, little, hot, awesome balls of awesomeness. So I was a bit sad. The girls both liked, but weren't shocked, by their desserts. At some point I got a cappuccino.

We all got a glass of Malaga with dessert. We'd never had this, but it was great. A waiter came over and took our pictures around now.

Spiaggia looks out at the beach/the Drake/the lake/Michigan Ave. The interior is super cool. The food is obviously great, the service was from coat check to coat retrieval amazing, professional, and unobtrusive. While they didn't hail us a cab this time, they did last time I ate in the Cafe next door, so I think we just left after that guy got off work or something. If you want great food in a more casual atmosphere, I strongly recommend the Cafe. I was happy to finally eat at the main restaurant, and will go back.

[El Diablo]

Coco 500 (http://www.coco500.com/)

This place is substantially cheaper than many of the other places reviewed here and technically does not qualify, but it's one of my favorite (maybe current favorite) restaurants in SF and one of the best values around for nice restaurants.

Took a few friends there Friday. The wine guy/manager is a friend of a friend, so I chatted with him a bit. He sent us over some delicious truffled mushroom flatbread to get started with. I've liked his recommendations in the past, so I asked him to give us something big but not super dry. He said he had a couple bottles left of something not on the list and brought us a bottle of Justin (http://www.justinwine.com/) Justification. This is a really nice Cabernet Franc/Merlot blend, pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Nice and fruity with a little bit of oak and earthiness to balance it out.

For apps we got fried green beans (these are like a light tempura fry here, really amazing), veal marrow bones (delicious, tender marrow served with some mini toasts - another standout dish), and a nice cheese plate with generous slices of camembert, a blue (wow, an outstanding pick), and one other cheese. Apps were all about $8 each.

For entrees we got a proscuitto pizza ($13 - this was good, but not great imo, not my favorite), moroccan lamb shank ($16 - super tender, deliciously spiced), alaskan black cod ($16 - i loved this fish but Boris was not a big fan, but I thought the sides were only so-so), and a special of steelhead trout ($18 i think - this was GREAT, this trout is almost like salmon, pink and quite rich).

Dessert was Meyer Lemon Cream ($7.50 - wow, this was outstanding, a sort of custardy thing w/ chewy cookie things to eat it with, wow), Huckleberry Bread Pudding ($7.50 - very tasty, but I love bread pudding, I didn't think there was anything standout about it - Boris loved it), and to go with our espresso, some pieces of chocolate ($2) and peanut butter cups ($2 - wow these are really amazing, flaky almost butterfingery but not quite as rich peanut butter part and delicious chocolate).

Great meal, excellent service - not hurried at all, nice pacing on everything, nice recommendations without going on too much about anything. The only minor negative note I might have is that our entrees came out almost immediately after we finished our apps, maybe they could have been a few minutes later, but whatever, very small complaint.

With tax and tip and an $80 bottle of wine, total of $300 for 4. That included four apps, four entrees, multiple desserts and coffees, so that's definitely on the high end of what a meal here will cost.

[NorCalJosh]

SF area food people-

I have an anniversary coming up in a month, are there any of these high end dining places that you'd recommend for an something like that in particular? i have had a large desire to hit up gary dankos for a while and el diablo sparked an interest in the dining room at the ritz, are either of those particularly good for a romantic evening set up?


secondly, i dont care for wine. i havent had a lot of experience, but i have been pretty disgusted by every wine i've tasted. will they be pissed at me if we choose not to order wine? do any of these places have some kind of alcoholic or non alcoholic special drink pairing besides wine? or is it worth it for me to get whatever wine they recommend which i am 99% certain i will find disgusting in hopes that maybe i've just had terrible wines up to this point and i just needed a proper introduction?

[PITTM]

i hated wine too, but that was cause my parents drink [censored] wine. when ive had good wines in nice restaurants i have loved them. give it a final shot at a nice restaurant. hey, you might end up a convert.

[citanul]

NorCal,

I don't have any experience at all with SF restaurants, though there are a couple of places reviewed in this thread. Hopefully El Diablo or one of the other SF residents will help you find a romantic spot.

With respect to wine:

1) Many places do carry non-wine beverages, even high-end ones, to offer patrons who don't like wine.

2) There is no place that will "look down at you" or "get angry with you" for not ordering wine

3) Many people who think they hate wine just haven't found wines they like yet. This isn't true for everyone, some people just don't like it. That's OK too. If however, you can put together a list of things you don't like about the wines you've tried, a good sommelier or even wine shop person should be able to either tell you if you don't like all wine or if there is some other type of wine you should try before giving up. For instance almost everyone likes a good moscato /images/graemlins/smile.gif The absolute worst thing that happens is that you wind up with a $10 glass of wine you hate, and if you order by the glass they'll possibly just take it away if you hate it. (Same thing likely holds for a bottle that they "think" you'll like even though you don't like wine: if you don't, they open it, and then you send it away because you think it tastes bad. Clarify this with the server beforehand.)

[El Diablo]

NCJ,

Gary Danko and Dining Room at the Ritz would be perfect for that kind of evening. The Ritz is a more over-the-top romantic environment, I'd suggest that.

Not ordering wine is absolutely not a problem in any way at any of the places I've mentioned.

Restaurants like these are a good opportunity for you to tell the sommelier that you are not into wine at all, but if he has a suggestion for a glass to try you'd be interested in giving it a try. I'd suggest trying that a couple of times and giving it a chance. If you don't like it, no big deal, just one glass of wine. If you do, great.

[britspin]

In the last year or so I've been to my first set of really high end restaurants in the UK- Mirabelle, Orrery, Le Gavroche, Winteringham Fields, Locanda locatelli, St John and Petrus.

The first time I went to a high end restaurant I was actually uncomfortable and nervous. My expectation was really good food, but I felt out of place- it took a lot that night to get me to just relax- I was over cautious and intimidated into relatively uninteresting choices (I didn't have the nerve to ask why i'd like woodpigeon, for example.)

Now, I've become much more confident and much more willing to trust the restaurant.

My expectation at this level is that the food and service is always outstanding, that the restaurant goes to real effort not to impress me but to make me happy.
Indeed, I now assume the food will be excellent (if not it goes back) and now look for something else.

What I'm looking for now is something breathtaking, something that I will remember and look back on long after the meal is over.

That doesn't have to be the food- service, ambience, all could be the special thing.

As for the restaurants, I'd recommend all of them, and go back to all, except perhaps Petrus. they're all excellent in their different ways.

What I remember though are the things that have hit that "outstandingly memorable" criteria. Two examples..

Silvano Giraldin, The Maitre'd at the Gavroche. Pure class. Totally accomodating, utterly charming, focussed on your enjoyment. I went there once and our main courses were late, I happened to catch the eye of the waiter and explained the problem, and as a result the Maitre D, came, apologised, explained he'd had to send a dish back as it wasn't right, and served us personally for the remainder of the meal.

Bear in mind that he is one of the leading Maitre'd's in the world, and I was a nobody on their budget lunch menu. Such professionalism and service.

Cheese at the Winteringham Fields: It's half midnight, we're the last people in the restaurant and it's time for the cheese course, a speciality there. Do we get hurried through? No chance.

Because we love cheese, the General manager spends half an hour with us, sampling cheeses tasting with us, explaining his choices- at the end, he sends us a complimentary glass of wine to go with some cheese we'd paricularly enjoyed, together with details of where to buy it outside of the restaurant.

As for the food- So many stunning dishes- The pheasant ravioli at Locanda locatelli. Pigs trotter at mirabelle (and at Gavroche.. mmmm), the bone marrow at St John, a souffle at Orrery. each of these dishes I can recall with awe and wonder. If I had to pick one, it would be St John's Bone marrow. Simple, delicious, addictive. i'd go back to that restaurant just for that.

[NorCalJosh]

Sorry for bumping a month old thread, but the anniversary i spoke about came and went, and we ended up going to chez panisse, which was asked about in this thread but never reviewed.

I originally intended to go to the ritz or gary danko's, but ended up procrastinating and found myself trying to make a reservation a week in advance. neither of those places had a cancellation, but chez panisse did have one, so we were set, a downstairs dinner at chez panisse at 9:15 on the 10th. I was extremely curious about how it would go, as obviously it is credited as the birthplace of california cuisine etc, but lately i'd been hearing some reviews (even from el diablo in this thread) that mentioned maybe it was getting a little bit old and over rated.

this was the menu for the night

Tuesday, April 10 $65
Green and white asparagus salad with farm egg
Spring vegetable minestrone
Grilled Wolfe Ranch quail with roasted onion sauce,
artichoke and black olive ragout, and garden lettuces
Rhubarb tart with muscat sabayon

The gf and I arrived at about 8:55. the restaurant is very cozy, with bowls of the fresh menu items on display when you enter. a very nice atmosphere, although not super romantic. we were escorted to the upstairs bar for drinks while we waited for our table. she chose some white wine or other, i had a moonlight death and taxes. we were escorted to our table at about 9:10, and the waitress was there immediately with a nice little ricotta crostini thing that i could have very easily become addicted to if i was given a full plate. so far so good.

the wine guy came over and i mentioned my dilemna as was suggested a couple posts up (i just havent been able to like wine). chez panisse doesnt have as extensive of a wine cellar as a lot of other places apparently, but i was sure he could find something for me. he was very understanding and over the course of the night brought me several different wines to try, and i actually did manage to find a couple that were enjoyable. i have no sophistication in that area, so i was happy but i wont try and go any further.

the salad was brought out, and i continued to be impressed. the asparagus were delicious, and the combination of flavors with the asparagus, egg and pickled beets used for garnish really worked well. it really didnt taste like any asparagus i'd had before, although i cant really put my finger on what was different. it still made my pee smell however.

the second course was a vegetable minestrone soup, which was my least favorite dish of the night. it was something i wouldnt have ordered if i'd seen it on a menu, and when it came, it really felt underseasoned and bland. it had a mint garnish which made it quite refreshing, and once i added some salt and pepper, it was fairly enjoyable, but definitely something i could have lived without.

the quail course came next, and after the slight disappointment of the soup, i was hoping for a home run. I wasn't disappointed. the quail was cooked perfectly, seasoned perfectly, juicy and delicious. the sauce was delicious and i sopped up everything that was left of it with the bread when i finished. it looked like there was a slight alteration to the menu, as the black olive and artichoke ragout was replaced by... something that wasnt ragout. some kind of prepartion of lightly fried fingerling potato and artichoke heart. it was the most perfect potato preparation i've ever had. i was in love with the potatoes. probably my favorite part of the entire meal. it was like the absolute perfect version of delicious kfc fries. but better? i'm not so hot at explaining.

the waitress came by and left a dessert drink menu and asked if we'd like a few minutes to enjoy the wine and conversation before the dessert was brought out, which we accepted. we ordered a french pressed pot of coffee, and then the rhubarb tart was brought out. i don't know why, but on my first bite, i was expecting something very different from what it actually was, and was quite shocked at the flavor. very tart, but with a nice bit of sweetness cut through. once my mouth knew what to expect, it was very good, with a nice light crust. very pleasing, and i'm glad it was included as it was probably not something i would have picked out off a menu.

after dessert, we finished our coffee and they brought us a couple small candies, one was a little dark chocolate drop with some candied ginger orange peel on it that i loved, the other was some kind of small pastry with jelly on top, which my girlfriend preferred.

the total bill came to ~$250, and i was very very happy with it. the service was attentive but not intrusive, the pacing was great, the food was delicious. I wouldn't say that i had a transcendent experience, but i definitely feel like i got my moneys worth. there were really no dishes that i thought i could only get at that location, and i think that's probably what people mean when they say it's over rated. it was a delicious meal, but for a restaurant consistently rated in the top 25 in the world, i think you really expect something a little bit more over the top.. we did go on a tuesday night, and the menu gets a little more extensive (and expensive) over the course of the week, so i may give it another shot on a friday or saturday night and see what it does for me.

[owsley]

[ QUOTE ]
for what i would consider "high end" i expect more than i expect.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
To get that Nirvana-moment where everything with the company, locale, food, wine is perfect, the 5 seconds where you realize how lucky you are to be living and how wonderful life at its best is.

[/ QUOTE ]

these are great quotes

[El Diablo]

All,

WD-50 (http://www.wd-50.com/) in New York.

Wylie Dufresne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wylie_Dufresne)'s restaurant. He is a highly recognized chef known for his "molecular gastronomy" style, which means using all sorts of crazy techniques to work with food.

I read a bunch of reviews before going and the general consensus was that the food was good but not necessarily great, but super creative and interesting. Also that the desserts are the real standouts.

Had a bunch of wine before dinner, so decided to try some of their unique cocktails with dinner. My friend had a vodka concoction w/ peppercorn and watermelon which he enjoyed. I had one bay fizz, vodka/bay leaf/egg white/lime? - super refreshing and delicious, and a rye/quince cocktail that was really great.

In place of bread they brought out this crisp sesame stuff like Indian papadum, very light, crisp, and delicious.

We got three apps:

Bone marrow, chestnuts, tonburi, pickled honshemeji .... 16
Corned duck, rye crsip, purple mustard, horseradish cream .... 14
Fried quail, banana tartar, nasturtium .... 16

The Corned Duck was just incredible. Very flavorful duck on a little rye crisp.

The quail was fine, nothing superb, and the banana it was served with was definitely unique, but more weird than awesome.

The bone marrow was a real out-there molecular gastronomy thing, little space-balls of marrow. Unfortunately, it tasted more like roe or other random little balls of stuff rather than intense marrow flavor, very underwhelming.

For mains we got:

Pork belly, radish, corn, miso-walnut, sour plum .... 28
Lamb loin, potato noodles, mustard crumbs, pretzel consomme .... 30

The pork belly was excellent. Fatty but not overwhelmingly so. The corn was basic but well done. Radish was standard. But the rest was in foam and mousse form and really innovative and flavorful. All the flavors worked together really well.

The lamb loin was done really well. The pretzel consomme was pretty subtle. Everything else was quite good, but nothing seemed really out there creativity wise except for some stuff which maybe was the mustard crumbs I guess, but tasted sort of like peanut brittle.

Overall, the food was just as expected. Good stuff, but didn't blow us away, however was pretty unique and interesting in presentation, technique, and flavor combinations.

By the way, the service was overall very solid. And the vibe of this place is awesome. Very casual, almost neighborhoody small restaurant feel. Very comfortable place to go to dinner, not pretentious at all.

Had a good conversation w/ the waiter about our dinner and told him we were really looking forward to dessert. When he found out I was here visiting from SF he brought us out a couple of glasses of delicious sweet sparkling wine to have with dessert. Very nice touch.

For dessert we ordered the $35 3-course tasting. 5-course is $45. I'd highly recommend coming here just to have dessert - it definitely blew away the food.

They started with a "pre-dessert" - a MUSHROOM chocolate tuile (round tubelike cookie thing). This was pretty crazy. My friend loved it, I liked it as well, but there was definitely a hint of mushroom taste that lingered and felt weird to me.

The first dessert was Yuzu, shortbread, spruce yogurt, pistachio - WOWOWOOWOOWOW. A yuzu custard that was really delicious and a variety of different pistachio presentations ranging from sauce to nuts! This was really incredible stuff.

Next came a pretty crazy dish which included a cauliflower foam and some grapefruit custard. Not quite as good, but super innovative and interesting and quite tasty.

Then we finished with Soft white chocolate, potato, malt, white beer ice cream. OK, the soft white chocolate, WOW, it was like a custard/chocolate sort of texture, just incredible. The potato sound strange, a little piece of baby potato, but somehow it actually kinda worked. The malt was a rich sauce that was WOW. There was also a white beer sauce that I liked, but I wasn't a big fan of the white beer ice cream, just a little too much for me. Still, overall, this dessert was just incredible.

With the check came a couple more little jelly concoctions that were quite tasty.

Check was $290 for two including tip.

I'd definitely recommend it for people who are very into food and just trying creative new stuff, it's definitely someplace worth trying - I'm probably gonna go back when I have more time and try the tasting menu ($125 for I think 8 small savory courses + 3 desserts). However, if you are not a super foodie type person, I would recommend you just go there and have the 5-course dessert tasting. That is definitely the highlight of the place and will blow you away. In fact, now that I think about it, I'll probably go back for cocktails and dessert instead of dinner.

[NoSoup4U]

I've been working my way through the most highly regarded sushi restaurants in New York and thought I'd share a few words on the most remarkable one of all, Masa (http://www.masanyc.com/). Masa is a temple of sushi. I was troubled by the set-up because it is located in the middle of a shopping center. It is a higher end location than it sounds, since other tenants include the NYC location of Per Se. Once inside, it is like another world. The room is small and sparsely furnished, in a classic clean lined Japanese style. We were seated at the sushi bar, which is an enormous single slab of blonde hinoki cypress sanded to a velvet texture that probably costs more than my car and had to be 30 foot long. It is not stained or polished, just a perfect specimen cared for meticulously. It seemed a talisman of the entire experience, simple and perfect. Speaking of expensive, Masa really redefined expensive. Dinner for two runs about $1,000 unless you don't drink. You can't save money by careful ordering, because there is no concept of ordering. There are no menus. Masayoshi will give you what he wants to give you and you'll like it. For this kind of cash, you expect every element to be perfect and I was not disappointed. Every ingredient was perfect. Masa told us that ingredients are flown in each day from all over the world and rejects many of them. We watched one of the apprentices slice up a thick slab of toro and reduce 20 pounds of tuna to two small triangular wedges. When asked, he said that the rest was not up to their standard.

The meal was served at a nice slow pace, with a variety of interesting dishes. Particular standouts included a risotto heavily flavored with Uni that made me really want to lick the plate. The tuna tartare was loaded with caviar and was so good I was literally unable to eat it without closing my eyes. I don't understand why, but it is true. There was a shabu-shabu fish, blowfish served both raw and tempura, grilled eel and others I can no longer remember. I was lulled into a kind of happy stupor, not knowing what new dish would arrive next. They brought hot towels three or more times during the meal and were always nearby with a refill of the glass or anything you could want.

Finally, after an hour or two of small dishes, we moved on to the sushi proper. It was dazzling. Each piece was served one at a time, while the chef judged our reactions and pondered the next selection. He urged us to eat with our hands and nodded in approval when we looked on in horror when the people next to us in the bar submerged their rice in soy sauce so that it was completely brown and dribbling. They also asked if he could serve the pieces without wasabi. This would be my only quibble with their service. In my view if you are willing to pay the bill, they should treat you as if you are the king. Masa was openly disdainful of their request to be served without wasabi. He asked us if we were OK with the fresh wasabi and I told him I wanted to eat it in whatever way he thought was best. From that point on, he never spoke to the other two customers. Each piece was seasoned and brushed with soy sauce or sprinkled with sea salt and dusted with lemon zest and one more delicious than the last. There were many items I've never had before or since. Of course, there was toro and otoro, but there were also clams and mackerel and varieties of mild and sweet whitefishes that apparently have no ready English translation. There was a ball of sushi rice rolled in diced black truffle (truffle made many appearances). When we hit the wall, he finished with a simple maki of chutoro that I manfully struggled to finish. There was some kind of fruit at the very end, but I could only manage a bite or two.

I don't think I've ever eaten at anywhere close to this good. We've also tried Sushi Yasuda, Jewel Bako and Sushi Gari. Seki and Kuruma are next up. We love Nobu and Morimoto, but consider them a different category altogether.

[El Diablo]

NoSoup,

Excellent report. Coincidentally, tonight at dinner my friend and I talked about how the only place neither of us had been that is on both of our current lists of "must-go" places is Masa. I recently read The Reach of a Chef by Michael Ruhlman (so-so book, nowhere near his amazing book The Soul of a Chef) where he described a Masa dinner in a way very similar to your description, but in much more length and detail. I'm going to go on an upcoming trip to NYC and I'm super-excited about it.

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]


WD-50 (http://www.wd-50.com/) in New York.

Wylie Dufresne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wylie_Dufresne)'s restaurant. He is a highly recognized chef known for his "molecular gastronomy" style, which means using all sorts of crazy techniques to work with food.


[/ QUOTE ]

El D,

Thanks for the great trip report. I very much want to eat a meal at WD-50. Sounds like the place delivers.

You might be interested in these video sof Wylie Dufresne explaining ingredients used at WD-50 (http://video.foodandwine.com/?fr_story=1adb0f2314120ac2b5324ec8a79e8c5783b94649 &amp;rf=bm).

[J.Brown]

two great trip reports!

i now want to check out both and won't be able to do either until mid 08 at the earliest and it makes me depressed.

[NoSoup4U]

[ QUOTE ]
NoSoup,

Excellent report. Coincidentally, tonight at dinner my friend and I talked about how the only place neither of us had been that is on both of our current lists of "must-go" places is Masa. I recently read The Reach of a Chef by Michael Ruhlman (so-so book, nowhere near his amazing book The Soul of a Chef) where he described a Masa dinner in a way very similar to your description, but in much more length and detail. I'm going to go on an upcoming trip to NYC and I'm super-excited about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bribe, cajole, plead, whatever it takes -- but absolutely make sure you have a seat at the sushi bar. Don't let them put you at a table.

[SlowHabit]

High-end diner specialists,

After browsing the thread, I am down with "The Dining" @ Ritz and Restaurant Gary Danko in SanFran. I will be taking my gf out for a special night. El Diablo has commented that "The Dining" has a more romantic setting albeit older crowd [I don't mind the old, stuffy characteristic] while Gary Danko is his favorite SanFran restaurant.

I can't decide. Help. Thanks.

PS. I am also thinking of Ame if anyone wants to make a case for that over the other two options.

[mrface]

I was a bit underwhelmed by Gary Danko. Everything is nice, but just nice. I got the sense that they weren't pushing themselves as much as I expect in a place like that. On the other hand, if you like cheese, their cheese course is absolutely amazing. They have a decent selection, but more importantly the cheese is served perfectly ripe. I eat a lot of cheese and I can never find it in the peak quality they have at Gary Danko. Overall, I would say GD is a very good dining experience with solid food and better than average service, but I doubt I will go back (except maybe to the bar for some cheese).

The Dining Room at the Ritz has better food, though they may not be as consistent as GD. In my 9+ course meal there, I found a few courses amazing, but a few not so great. While the atmosphere might be more stuffy than your standard SF restaurant, I found the service to be spot on and better than GD. They definitely adjusted to the fact that we were half or 1/3 of the age of most of the other patrons. If you go, get the foie gras if you like it-- probably the best foie dish I've had. I also highly recommend the wine pairing.

Ame, while also good, I would probably skip. Neither the food, service, or experience is in the same league as the above two. I enjoyed my meal there, but it's also another place I probably won't return to.

If I can throw in another place to consider, I might think about Coi. I actually have not yet eaten inside the dining room at Coi, but after a few trips to the lounge where you can order a la carte off the tasting menu, it is one of my favorite restaurants in the city. The servers are awesome and really try to make your experience great. The other night I went there after a bad dinner, and even though it was 11pm and the kitchen was closed, the waiter went into the kitchen and put together a tasting of 3 ice creams for us. On top of that, he paired a different glass of sherry with each ice cream for the price of a single glass. Finally, before we left he gave us another dessert on the house of a vanilla milkshake with a pistachio financier.

So overall, I'd recommend The Dining Room for a nice, all-out, romantic dinner in the city. For something more casual, but with food nearly or just as good, check out Coi.

[SlowHabit]

Thanks mrface!

[prohornblower]

At $75/plate I do expect my peanut butter to be crunchy, if I do so desire. I also expect a crinkly straw at my request (if applicable).

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
WD-50 (http://www.wd-50.com/) in New York.

Wylie Dufresne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wylie_Dufresne)'s restaurant.

[/ QUOTE ]


I recently went to Tailor with my girlfriend. The chef is Sam Mason, former pastry chef at wd~50. Here's my review:

---

This is one of the best atmospheres in which I've ever eaten. The design theme is that of an old tailor's shop, with a little leather cutout in the middle of the table and lots of charcoals and browns, but there's still a strong modern feel. The servers wear gray flannel looking things and brown striped shirts. The design works really well; it's comfortable and stylish. The dining room is reasonably quiet, which I like because I want to feel relaxed, but there's enough music (I remember hearing Talib Kweli, Beatles, and Cranberries) and activity to keep it from feeling dead.

The service is outstanding. Our waitress was very knowledgeable and helpful with recommendations, they tried to find out the name of a song I liked, they folded our napkins for us while we were away from the table, they were quick to refill water and replace silver without just hovering around. The bill came with a clothespin on it which you could use to clip your card in, which was a cute touch. Very professional without being stuffy. Food presentation is also excellent.

Tailor is a small plates place. The menu has one side labeled "salty" and one labeled "sweet," each with about six dishes, and you can order any combination you want. Girlfriend and I planned to share six plates total, four salty and two sweet, and they decided the order in which we'd receive pairs of plates for three courses. Tailor also has about twelve specialty cocktails and some house-made liquor infusions.

Prices are around $15 per plate and $15 per cocktail. They offer a seven-course tasting menu for $85 or $120 with wine pairings.


Now, the meal itself:


<u>Bread</u>
Walnut raisin: Good, standard.
Green olive: Buttery olives and the right texture made this one stand out.


<u>Complimentary amuse-bouche</u>
Fig with bay leaf and pine nut foam: Like eating air if air were bursting with flavor. Very nice sweet fig with a little nuttiness from the foam.


<u>First course</u>
Foie gras terrine, cocoa dust, peanut soil, pear paper: Tastes a lot like a Reese's peanut butter cup with the nice texture of foie gras. Interesting, impressively original, and good, but not earth-shattering. You mostly taste the chocolate and peanut butter, so I felt like the foie gras wasn't as noticeable as I wanted.
Duck tartare, marjoram pesto, cashew, chocolate tuile: Where else am I gonna get duck tartare? Gamey and tasty, but again, not brilliant. Marjoram pesto very good and created interesting flavors. Crumbly texture. I keep thinking about it a few days later though, so maybe it's secretly hypnotic.


<u>Second course</u>
Passionfruit-poached arctic char, mushrooms, spaetzle, coconut shavings: Astonishing. Girlfriend thinks this may be the best thing she's ever eaten. Fish cooked perfectly, sauce wonderful, tiny mushrooms add just a little something extra that really works, coconut adds a little crunch.
Pork belly, butterscotch miso sauce, green apple sticks: Ungodly great. Pork was the perfect texture and saltiness, and the butterscotch adds the right amount of sweetness to it. I had to force myself to slow down and really make sure I was tasting the food rather than just shoveling it in. Girlfriend said it was vaguely reminiscent of bacon and maple syrup, which excited our waitress. It reminded me of sugar-cured bacon if bacon weren't as crunchy but was on another plane of tastiness. And bacon is my favorite food, so it's hard for me to see how it could be improved upon, but man.


<u>Third course</u>
Black olive cake, blueberry reduction, yogurt sorbet and foam: Tasty, especially the blueberries. The yogurt sorbet was a great texture but not very flavorful. The blueberries were amazing. Cake was good with a nice texture and balanced flavor. It didn't taste much like olives to me, but maybe it's not supposed to be strong.
Roasted banana, mustard ice cream, brown butter rum, crispy thin lengthwise slice of banana: Mustard ice cream?! Love it--the mustard was fairly subtle with just enough bite. I'm not usually a huge banana fan but this was probably my third favorite dish. The banana and mustard was an unusual and delicious combination. Girlfriend points out that bananas are "earthy" even though no one ever says that, which may be why they work well with mustard. And again we have something to add crunchiness.


<u>Complimentary dessert</u>
Red bell pepper petits four: A little sugar coated gelatinous cube. "Zantar is a gelatinous cube that eats warriors in a village." --Noah Vanderhoff, Wayne's World Much softer texture than a gumdrop. Tasty and interesting. I think this is a common ending to a meal at wd~50 as well.


<u>Drinks with meal</u>
Chanterais (walnut cognac, dandelion Cointreau, lemon juice): I like cognac, and I loved this. The walnut was subtle but noticeable if you're looking for it. It has some bite to it with the lemon; Girlfriend thought it was too much. Knowing cognac reasonably well probably made me appreciate this a little more.
The Waylon (100 proof bourbon, smoked cola syrup): Liked it even though I don't usually like bourbon. The smoked syrup really took the edge off the alcohol without being overwhelming.
Blood and sand (scotch, sweet vermouth, bitter orange sorbet, redbach beer): Girlfriend's favorite. I don't remember this one terribly well but it was good. Don't like "blood" as part of a food or drink name.
Agua verde (tequila, tomatillo, cilantro, habanero): Very spicy! I liked it a lot because I like hot stuff.


<u>Drinks at downstairs bar afterward</u>
Bazooka (vodka, bubble gum cordial, house sour): It's supposed to taste like Bazooka gum, and it really did! You have to taste this just for the novelty. Not a lot of sourness, but still would have liked less--I wanted for this to be pure sweetness.
Antoine's sazerac (cognac, peychaud bitters, absinthe): Very alcoholic, but still good. Tastes more like sour mix than I thought it would, and not bitter. Also, I thought absinthe was illegal so I assume this is some substitute, but that's fine.


<u>Summary</u>
This was one of the few truly great dining experiences of my life. The meal was excellent, except for the second course, which was blisteringly, indescribably awesome. The service and the environment were absolutely top-notch. The company was great as well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


I highly recommend Tailor for delicious, innovative food as well as excellent service and atmosphere.

[BK_]

Thanks for the review MCS. I have been meaning to go here since it opened, and after this review I will hopefully make it happen soon.

[PartyGirlUK]

MCS, price?

[howzit]

def going to tailor.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
MCS, price?

[/ QUOTE ]

Prices are around $15 per plate and $15 per cocktail. They offer a seven-course tasting menu for $85 or $120 with wine pairings.

[El Diablo]

MCS,

Excellent report. Our waiter at WD50 was quite knowledgeable and we had some good discussion w/ him about food and restaurants. Chatting w/ him after the meal, he highly recommended Tailor as another place to try.

[mikeczyz]

i am definitely going to add tailor to my dining list...

[StevieG]

MCS,

Nice trip report, but from the descriptions of the dishes, I would worry that they tend overly sweet (cocoa, butterscotch, apples, coconut, passion fruit, etc.). Was it balanced?

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice trip report, but from the descriptions of the dishes, I would worry that they tend overly sweet (cocoa, butterscotch, apples, coconut, passion fruit, etc.). Was it balanced?

[/ QUOTE ]

It generally was. The passion fruit was more fruity than sweet, if that makes sense. The apples were green apples. The coconut was subtle. Of course when you order desserts, you expect sweetness, but even those had the sweetness reduced a bit. And the duck tartare had pretty much no sweetness outside of the choclate tuile, which wasn't terribly sweet itself anyway.

The thing about Tailor is that the salty dishes aren't all salty, and the sweet ones aren't all sweet. There are elements of both in most dishes, but the whole point is balancing things and finding new flavors. If you think they will be tending too sweet, then just order the least-sweet stuff you can find. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[El Diablo]

All,

Found a couple of pics of things we had at wd-50:

http://www.wd-50.com/images/food/duck.jpg
Corned duck, rye crisp, purple mustard, horseradish cream

http://www.wd-50.com/images/food3/yuzu.jpg
Yuzu curd, shortbread, spruce yogurt, pistachio

[Neuman101]

I haven't heard anyone review L'Atelier de Joel Robuchon and it was the last great restaurant I went to, so here it goes...

The first choice when making a reservation at Robuchons is your seating preference. It is about half tables. The rest of the patrons sit around a bar that surrounds the kitchen and views the food as it is being prepared. While i would find it cool to watch such fine food prepared, I knew my friend would not care much of it, and would prefer a little more personal space than the bar affords. The tables were nice, and probably more comfortable for a long meal than the bar.

The menu is set up slightly differently than some other high end places. While there are a la carte appetizers and entrees, there is also a large section devoted to small plates, like you find on a tasting menu. The beauty of Joel Robuchon is that you can design your own tasting menu and also mix and match small plates with appetizers or entrees. After conferring with our waiter to determine the size of each category we settled on 4 small plates and an entree.

My first course was a fresh langoustine carpaccio with poppy seeds and olive oils. It was cool and had a nice texture but was not nearly as good as my friend's langoustine dish, Crispy Langoustine Papillote with Basil Pesto. His was a marvelously crisped shell around tender langoustine with a light creamy sauce. His dish simply worked.

My next dish was a sea urchin in a lobster gelee with cauliflower cream. Im not normally a big fan of uni, but the waiter recommended it and I was feeling adventurous. I was not disappointed, it was not bland and gooey as other sea urchins I have tasted. The broth/foam/gelee combination provided an exciting taste, one that I cant explain in any relative sense as it was truly unique to me.

My next dish was Crispy Frog Legs with Garlic Purée and Parsley Coulis. I have a thing for frogs legs, and these were good, but not astounding. They were a little too fried for my liking, but the sauce was excellent. (I was spoiled by an earlier frogs legs served with young garlic soup from Jean Georges over the summer)

My next dish was Beef and Foie Gras Burgers with Lightly Caramelised Bell Peppers. These were wonderful little sliders of maybe 3 bites each. The meat itself was so tender and then with a slice of foie gras on top, they went from so tender to whatever the next level of tenderness is. The dish also cames with fries that were very good, i didnt want to fill up on fries as I eat enough of those, so i ate a few and left the rest.

For my entree I got one of Joel's famous dishes, Free-Range Caramelised Quail Stuffed with Foie Gras, Served with Potato Purée and Summer Truffle. It is one of those dishes that simply reading it off the menu alerts your palate of what is to come. It was marvelously rich and not gamey at all. The Potato Puree (mashed potatos) was the best I have ever had anywhere hands down. Trying to describe them is between difficult and impossible because the texture is so extraordinary. Its as if a stick of butter (or 4) was dropped into a cloud and then someone made into mashed potatos. Also, if you don't like quail dont order it just for the potato puree. While it is the only dish that comes with potato puree, everyone gets their own little pot of them during your last course. This is a wonderful touch and ensures that you will leave full regardless of what you have eaten.

Im not a desert person at all, so for brevity's sake, I'll just say I nibbled on some of their house desserts and had a tasting of sorbets.

I had champagne with my small plates and a glass of wine or two with my later plates and entree. My friend was drinking vodka. I believe the bill was around 525 w/ tip.

It was worth the price, and it was thoroughly enjoyable.

[El Diablo]

N,

Nice review. I assume you went to the one in NYC?

He has a L'Atelier in Vegas as well. I want to go to this place in Vegas: http://www.mgmgrand.com/dining/joel-robuchon-at-the-mansion-french-restaurant.aspx

"The Potato Puree (mashed potatos) was the best I have ever had anywhere hands down. Trying to describe them is between difficult and impossible because the texture is so extraordinary. Its as if a stick of butter (or 4) was dropped into a cloud and then someone made into mashed potatos."

Published recipes say it's 250g of butter for every kg of potato. However, multiple sources claim that there's an almost 1:1 ratio of butter:potato in it at his restaurants! The multi-step puree process is also pretty crazy. It's amazing that this guy is able to take something as basic as mashed potatoes and take them to a level that gets top chefs and foodies around the world raving about them.

[Neuman101]

yes, i went to the new(ish) one in the 4 seasons hotel on 57th st in NYC...

[PartyGirlUK]

citanul we need to take our girlies out to some high end ish in Chicago ASAP!

[ike]

[ QUOTE ]
N,

Nice review. I assume you went to the one in NYC?

He has a L'Atelier in Vegas as well. I want to go to this place in Vegas: http://www.mgmgrand.com/dining/joel-robuchon-at-the-mansion-french-restaurant.aspx

"The Potato Puree (mashed potatos) was the best I have ever had anywhere hands down. Trying to describe them is between difficult and impossible because the texture is so extraordinary. Its as if a stick of butter (or 4) was dropped into a cloud and then someone made into mashed potatos."

Published recipes say it's 250g of butter for every kg of potato. However, multiple sources claim that there's an almost 1:1 ratio of butter:potato in it at his restaurants! The multi-step puree process is also pretty crazy. It's amazing that this guy is able to take something as basic as mashed potatoes and take them to a level that gets top chefs and foodies around the world raving about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The desserts are l'atelier are hands down the best I've had. My girlfriend got this dessert that was called something like "Chocolate Raspberry Surprise" and the presentation was unreal. They brought out a dish with a thing that looked like an oversized truffle in it and then poured a warm sauce over the top and the top melted away to reveal fresh raspberries inside. That description didn't do it justice at all. It was really cool and really delicious.
I also really enjoy the tapas-like approach they take to their menu. They have small plates that are sized so that two people want to eat something like 8-10. Its fun getting to try so many different things in one meal.

[J.Brown]

[ QUOTE ]
N,

Nice review. I assume you went to the one in NYC?

He has a L'Atelier in Vegas as well. I want to go to this place in Vegas: http://www.mgmgrand.com/dining/joel-robuchon-at-the-mansion-french-restaurant.aspx

"The Potato Puree (mashed potatos) was the best I have ever had anywhere hands down. Trying to describe them is between difficult and impossible because the texture is so extraordinary. Its as if a stick of butter (or 4) was dropped into a cloud and then someone made into mashed potatos."

Published recipes say it's 250g of butter for every kg of potato. However, multiple sources claim that there's an almost 1:1 ratio of butter:potato in it at his restaurants! The multi-step puree process is also pretty crazy. It's amazing that this guy is able to take something as basic as mashed potatoes and take them to a level that gets top chefs and foodies around the world raving about them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have done both robuchon places at the mgm all this thread is doing is making me want to go back, especially to L'Atelier. great trip report for the nyc one. ty.

[Xaston]

Morimoto Philadelphia.

$120 omakase with $85 drink pairings.

This came with some sort of sharp/crisp white wine. I kinda suck at drinking wine so don't pay attention to my comments on the drinks.

Toro tartare. Good. Nothing incredible. The tartare had some scallion tempura on top which added a very next textural contrast.

3 kumamoto oysters

Fish sauce + jalapeno

Not very good.

Something salsa

Good and refreshing

Cilantro ceviche

Good, my friend's favorite. I liked it equal to the salsa.

Came with a morimoto martini, not bad. A lot less strong than I expected. Morimoto sake + vodka, with some cucumber slices.


2003 savignon blanc from new zealand

New style sashimi. Ginger and garlic scallops "seared" by pouring hot oil over it and finishing with yuzu soy sauce (isn't that just ponzu?). Super super super delicious. Chris says check mark for wine pairing. I have no clue. One of the two stand out dishes.

1993 Chardonnay France.

Sashimi salad. Skipjack sashimi with carrot sauce and yuzu. Micro greens and a shaved and cured piece of bonito. Almost like a jerky.

The fish is good and very fresh, and the sauce is pretty good. I think it needs a little more seasoning, but good. The jerky is pretty unpleasent in taste and texture.

The wine is too strong for me, but Chris loves it. He says its his favorite.

Black vinegar cream soda intermizzo. Its like cream soda. It's in a little shooter glass, but comes with a straw. Sipping it it wasn't very good, but I took the last 3/4 of it as a shot and it was pretty good and refreshing. I wish they didn't put the little straws in this.

2004 something riesling? Germany

Espice lobster. Pan roasted half lobster with 8 spices and yuzu creme friache. The sweetness of the wine cools the spiciness of the lobster. Pretty good. Like the small kumamoto oysters with fancy sauces, which I like less than new england oysters with some cocktail sauce; I prefer my lobster simple with a little melted butter. But it's lobster and is well cooked.

Our first red wine. A pinot noir form South Africa.

Flash seared kobe beef with soy reduction and basil oil and some abalone mushrooms. Quite good and goes well with the wine, although I don't like reds very much. The soy reduction was just perfect and the kobe beef was great. This and the scallop dish were the best.

Sake. Very strong. Chris liked it better than the martini that was sake + vodka + cucmber; I much preferred the martini. Like I said earlier, I am bad at drinking alcohol.

Sushi. The o-toro is good, but I don't like o-toro as much as most. Chris liked it very much. Kanpachi is good, I skipped (lol?) the skipjack and enjoyed the red snapper and giant clam. Nothing extraordinary though. Chris didn't like the clam. I get some really good sushi at a small local (Providence, RI) place so sushi courses always seem like a bit of a waste at a place like Nobu/Shintaro/Morimoto for me.

5 year mediara something?

Sweet potato cake with sweet japanese red bean whipped cream, with some of the beans, and a sweet potato chip.

The sweet potato cake is ok and so are the beans. The bean whipped cream is excellent though, and so is the sweet potato chip. The wine thing is good too. By the end of this dish the sweet potato cake has grown on me and is nice and moist, sweet but not overbearlingly. This was a good dessert. I finished the whole thing, and I'm not a very big eater.

Cliff Notes:

I like Nobu better. 2 very good dishes, 1 good dish, and all the rest were ok. There was no dish that was bad.

[Melchiades]

Went to one of Gordon Ramsays places yesterday. The Savoy Grill (http://www.gordonramsay.com/thesavoygrill), head chef there is Marcus Wareing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Wareing) .

On sundays they do a sunday menu that is absolutely fantastic value for money. 3 courses for £25 or 2 courses for £18. You'd be hard pressed to go to an Indian place for a curry and dessert or an Italian for Pizza and dessert/starter for that price in London, so that is really quite amazing value in a Michelin starred restaurant. I know lots of you are ballers and that price doesn't matter to you, but this is highly recommended for those who are on a budget. Or have friends who are.

For starters we had:

Foie gras parfait with toasted brioche and spiced fruit chutney. Absoultely lovely. Not the most inventive dish, but you can't argue with the taste.

Scottish smoked salmon and gravadlax, served with classic accompaniments. Which I'm told was also fantastic.

Mains came:

Roast rib-eye of Scottish beef with Yorkshire pudding, roasted vegetables, potatoes and beef sauce. Which was a brilliant piece of meat cooked perfectly. Once again, the chef didn't really take out his most fancy moves. But it's good food prepared perfectly.

Seared sea bream with fennel purée, buttered spinach and tarragon glazed carrots. The fennel purée was absolutely top notch. Creamy and full of flavour.

Desserts:

Chocolate brownie gateau. Wow! Chocolate bomb, not too sweet. Perfect.

Passion fruit brulée. Often when I get brulées with some exotic taste they hardly taste anything but regular creme brulée. This was different, lots of flavour.

Service throughout the evening was spot on. Helpful and always there when you needed them, not too stiff. Always with a smile and a joke.

Really recommend this. But know what you are getting on a Sunday. This isn't the most innovative food. Lacks the wow factor, just great food prepared by the best chefs. So not for you if you are looking to be blown off your chair, but if you want a piece of the fine dining experience for under half the price this is for you.

[traz]

I just wanted to say that I love reading the reviews in this thread...I don't get a chance to go to upper end restaurants very often myself, so I really do enjoy reading about it. Keeps me motivated to get to balla status in any case ;P

[MrMetropolitan]

[ QUOTE ]
Morimoto Philadelphia.

$120 omakase with $85 drink pairings.

This came with some sort of sharp/crisp white wine. I kinda suck at drinking wine so don't pay attention to my comments on the drinks.

Toro tartare. Good. Nothing incredible. The tartare had some scallion tempura on top which added a very next textural contrast.

3 kumamoto oysters

Fish sauce + jalapeno

Not very good.

Something salsa

Good and refreshing

Cilantro ceviche

Good, my friend's favorite. I liked it equal to the salsa.

Came with a morimoto martini, not bad. A lot less strong than I expected. Morimoto sake + vodka, with some cucumber slices.


2003 savignon blanc from new zealand

New style sashimi. Ginger and garlic scallops "seared" by pouring hot oil over it and finishing with yuzu soy sauce (isn't that just ponzu?). Super super super delicious. Chris says check mark for wine pairing. I have no clue. One of the two stand out dishes.

1993 Chardonnay France.

Sashimi salad. Skipjack sashimi with carrot sauce and yuzu. Micro greens and a shaved and cured piece of bonito. Almost like a jerky.

The fish is good and very fresh, and the sauce is pretty good. I think it needs a little more seasoning, but good. The jerky is pretty unpleasent in taste and texture.

The wine is too strong for me, but Chris loves it. He says its his favorite.

Black vinegar cream soda intermizzo. Its like cream soda. It's in a little shooter glass, but comes with a straw. Sipping it it wasn't very good, but I took the last 3/4 of it as a shot and it was pretty good and refreshing. I wish they didn't put the little straws in this.

2004 something riesling? Germany

Espice lobster. Pan roasted half lobster with 8 spices and yuzu creme friache. The sweetness of the wine cools the spiciness of the lobster. Pretty good. Like the small kumamoto oysters with fancy sauces, which I like less than new england oysters with some cocktail sauce; I prefer my lobster simple with a little melted butter. But it's lobster and is well cooked.

Our first red wine. A pinot noir form South Africa.

Flash seared kobe beef with soy reduction and basil oil and some abalone mushrooms. Quite good and goes well with the wine, although I don't like reds very much. The soy reduction was just perfect and the kobe beef was great. This and the scallop dish were the best.

Sake. Very strong. Chris liked it better than the martini that was sake + vodka + cucmber; I much preferred the martini. Like I said earlier, I am bad at drinking alcohol.

Sushi. The o-toro is good, but I don't like o-toro as much as most. Chris liked it very much. Kanpachi is good, I skipped (lol?) the skipjack and enjoyed the red snapper and giant clam. Nothing extraordinary though. Chris didn't like the clam. I get some really good sushi at a small local (Providence, RI) place so sushi courses always seem like a bit of a waste at a place like Nobu/Shintaro/Morimoto for me.

5 year mediara something?

Sweet potato cake with sweet japanese red bean whipped cream, with some of the beans, and a sweet potato chip.

The sweet potato cake is ok and so are the beans. The bean whipped cream is excellent though, and so is the sweet potato chip. The wine thing is good too. By the end of this dish the sweet potato cake has grown on me and is nice and moist, sweet but not overbearlingly. This was a good dessert. I finished the whole thing, and I'm not a very big eater.

Cliff Notes:

I like Nobu better. 2 very good dishes, 1 good dish, and all the rest were ok. There was no dish that was bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow I am surprised you did not like the Omakase at Morimotos. I had the one in NY about a month ago. We are not big drinkers to obviously we left off the wine. It also seems like our dishes were different than yours with the exception of the lobster. We were given uni over foie gras over a large oyster for the fourth course which was amazing, did you get that as well?

[Xaston]

Everything I got I mentioned.

We went back the next night and got omakase again with a different menu (except they served the same dessert). No uni/foie gras/oyster for us. There was a foie gras dish on day 2 that was pretty good, but it wasn't with uni on an oyster.

[britspin]

Go to second (third, fourth?) the WD-50 recs. Went there on first trip to NY and it was outstanding. Had the tasting menu, and while not every dish was a success, the whole meal was utterly memorable. The deep fried mayo and the shrimp and basil macaroons will live long in the memory, as will the noodle soup (you squrt the "noodle" into the soup as a liquid, where it sets immediately). Also Wylie Dufresne was in the kitch, seemingly having a great time, and had a ten minute chat with us at the end of service. Really nice guy.

I also want to go to Tailor, when next in NY though my immediate dining priority in London is a trip back to St John, which I've been looking forward to for ages.

[MrMetropolitan]

our meal had: toro tartare (there was no tempura), hamachi over micro greens, a white fish with a vinagerette, the oyster dish i mentioned, a tea course, lobster, kobe beef with some sort of wine reduction with potatoes, and then desert was a kind of pound cake served with peach gelato and red beans and some type of wafer crisp which was great. I would go back again too because I liked it that much.

On another note, everyone is always talking about steak houses and I would like to give my opinion. I have been to the majority of good to great steakhouses in Manhattan. It seems the majority of steak houses in the area very closely resemble Peter Lugers with similar appetizers and steak choices. This gets old after a while even though it is good none of these places are really groundbreaking so to put them in the class of a place like Gotham is an insult to such restaurants. One steak house I have found to be semi-different is Quality Meats http://qualitymeatsnyc.com/ which does deviate from the standard shrimp cocktail, sizzling bacon, porterhouse + sides you are usually ordering at steakhouses in the area. The other steak house I really like is Frankie and Johnnie's http://www.frankieandjohnnies.com/ . F&amp;J's has the best on bone rib eye I have ever had. Another tip if you go here, while it is not always on the menu you can ask for the Lobster Fra Diavlo which is amazing there and makes a great appetizer.

[El Diablo]

X,

"I like Nobu better. 2 very good dishes, 1 good dish, and all the rest were ok. There was no dish that was bad."

I felt the same way. Here's what I wrote previously after my visit there:

"Dinner ended up being Morimoto. We sat at the sushi bar and had the omikase. It was good, but nothing extra special. Overall, that was a letdown. A few dishes were incredible (steak w/ mashed potatoes, toro, soup course), but it was definitely mixed and somewhat inconsistent."

"I'm a huge Nobu fan and was really pumped about Morimoto, but had a very underwhelming (and pretty expensive) dinner there."

Also, here's a previous thread w/ other sushi reviews (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9894848&amp;an=&amp;page=0&amp;vc=1) .

[yad]

I went to Gary Danko last night with the woman. Only the third real high-end dining experience I've had (other 2 were L'Espalier in Boston and Chez Panisse). It was fantastic:

We got to the restaurant about 20 minutes early. Sat at the bar and had a drink while waiting for our table, and wound up getting seated 10 minutes early.

The way Gary Dankos works is you choose 3, 4, or 5 courses ($65, $81, and $96 respectively). If you choose 5 courses you get appetizer, fish entree, meat entree, cheese course, and dessert. We decided to get one 4-course and one 5-course, skipping the meat on the 4-course meal (we just generally don't eat much meat).


This was the menu:

Autumn Menu
Caviar Service ~ 1 ounce. Black River Osetra $95 or Golden Osetra $125.

Appetizers
Glazed Oysters with Osetra Caviar, Salsify and Lettuce Cream
Lobster Salad with Persimmon, Chestnut Mousse and Pomegranate Seeds
Treviso and Romaine Salad with Banyuls Vinaigrette, Anchovies and Parmigiano-Reggiano
French Red Pumpkin Soup with Braised Rabbit Terrine, Pomegranate, Walnuts and Lavender
Seared Ahi Tuna with Avocado, Nori, Enoki Mushrooms and Lemon Soy Dressing
Seared Foie Gras with Caramelized Red Onions, Seckel Pear and Huckleberries
Risotto with Lobster, Rock Shrimp, Fall Root Vegetables and Sage Oil

Fish and Seafood
Pan Steamed Shellfish with Thai Red Curry and Jasmine Rice
Pancetta Wrapped Frog Legs with Sunchoke Purée, Potato and Lentils
Striped Bass with Potato-Chorizo Risotto, Pearl Onions, Niçoise Olives and Sauce Verte
Herb Crusted Yellowfin Tuna with Parsnip Purée, Maitake Mushrooms, Shallot Confit and Flageolet Beans
Seared Sea Scallops with Butternut Squash Purée, Roasted Cauliflower, Pistachios and Sour Cherries
Roast Maine Lobster with Yellow Chanterelle Mushrooms, Edamame and Tarragon
Horseradish Crusted Salmon Medallion with Dilled Cucumbers

Meat and Game Birds
Lemon Herb Duck Breast with Duck Hash and Quince
Herb Crusted Loin of Lamb with Beets, Polenta, Escarole and Raisin-Pinenut Relish
Beef Tenderloin with King Trumpet Mushrooms, Potato Gratin, Cipollini Onions and Stilton Butter
Quail Stuffed with Porcini and Foie Gras with Sweet Potato, Brussels Sprouts and Pomegranate Gastrique
Guinea Hen Breast with Hen Sausage, Bacon-Butternut Squash Risotto and Apple-Sage Compote
Moroccan Spiced Squab with Chermoula and Orange-Cumin Carrots

Savory Tart of Seasonal Vegetables with Quenelle of Goat Cheese and Mesclun Greens

Cheese
A Selection of Farmhouse and Artisanal Cheeses Presented Tableside

Desserts
Trio of Crème Brûlée with Cookies
Saffron Caramel Pear Tart with Noyau Ice Cream
Huckleberry Buttercake with Oranges and Spiced Vanilla Cream
Chocolate Caramel Peanut Torte with Peanut Butter Mousse, Coffee Ice Cream and Caramelized Banana
Chocolate Cream with Passion Fruit Mousse and Black Tea Ice Cream
Non-Cholesterol Grand Marnier Soufflé with Blackberry Sorbet
Seasonal Sorbet or Ice Cream Sampler with Cookies
Baked Chocolate Soufflé with Two Sauces



So to the meal:

Amuse-bouche was a small piece of seafood sausage sitting on fennel/mushroom cream. Sounds strange, but it was really excellent.

Appetizers: Woman had the oysters. These weren't on the shell, but in a little bowl with the salsify and cream and caviar. Absolutely spectacular. These are not flavors I am usually a huge fan of, but they really worked fantastic in this dish. Really one of those dishes where you "taste the sea." I had the lobster risotto, which was good but not fantastic. It was certainly perfectly creamy with a nice delicate balance of the flavors, but the rice grains did not have the perfect firmness.

Fish: We started by sharing the scallops. These were fantastic. With the accompanyments it was a really earthy, autumn dish. Very unusual for scallops, but it worked perfectly.

Fish and Meat: We had the tuna and the venison. Oh, now I see that the venison that we had is not on the menu I just cut and pasted from the website. It was juniper-crusted venison with braised red cabbage, cranberries, and some kind of strange fungus. That was really fantastic. The meat was perfectly cooked and perfectly complemented the sauce. The tuna was also great. Nowadays it seems like tuna is invariably done in an asian style so it was nice to have something different. This was also great. Like the scallops, very earthy, but in quite a different way -- sharper flavors but at the same time a bit heavier on the root vegetable feeling.

Cheese: We had both ordered the cheese course, but at this point we were getting pretty full and still had a ways to go. So we downgraded to sharing a single cheese plate. Gary Danko is famous for their cheese, and it did not disappoint. My favorite was a semi-firm French goat cheese, while the woman slightly preferred a firmer swiss sheep's milk cheese.

Dessert: We had the pear tart and the chocolate souffle. The souffle was merely decent -- actually not quite sweet enough (and I tend to like less sweet chocolate flavors). I didn't really want to get it, but felt almost obliged. Should have listened to myself. The pear tart, however, was fantastic. A perfectly crispy almost crackly-paper crust with a great balance of pear and caramel and saffron, and then intensely almond-flavored ice cream to accompany.

Petit-Fours: They brought a whole big plate of petit-fours at the end, which were also great. Favorites were some kind of fruit jelly (normally I hate these, but this was spectacular) and a tiny little passionfruit cream tart.

Wine: We got a bottle of fairly obscure california Pinot for $85. This was the only meh point of the meal. The wine list contains some spectacular choices, but the really good stuff is prohibitively expensive (like $350+). I wanted to try an Amarone but they had nothing under $400. So we wound up with one of their lower-end wines, which was OK but no great shakes. It would have been fine as a wine you bought at a wine shop for $15-$20, way overpriced at $85.

Service: Really spectacular from the moment we walked in the door. It seemed a bit stuffy for the first 5 minutes or so, but that was probably more us than them. After that it was excellent. They are perhaps slightly overly fussy (e.g. when I got up and looked around for the bathroom, I had not glanced left for half a second before someone asked me "bathroom, sir?" and directed me to the right place. When I got back, my napkin had been picked up from where I had dropped it on the table, and neatly refolded). But overall fairly unobtrusive while at the same time extremely attentive.

Overall: Despite the criticism about the wine, overall the meal was fantastic and worth every penny. Total came to $330 after tax and tip, and I'd definitely go back.

[LyinKing]

if anyone ventures to northern NJ, might I recommend Lorena's. First-rate and reasonable. Chef from March, Daniel, Nicholas (also in NJ and likewise worth the trip).

http://restaurantlorena.com

[toutatis70]

I dine at your so called high end places quite frequently. recently I spent $250.oo for a meal for two with no bottle wine at this place called El Milano in ceasers forums Las vegas. Place cracks me up, they try to push $50 dollar plates of sea bass flown in from belgum. Now what makes this so special baffles me. I had the Lamb shank. It was a huge piece of tender meat with a bone that included a small fork to eat the xxxing bone marrow. has anyone ever tried the bone marrow?

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]
I had the Lamb shank. It was a huge piece of tender meat with a bone that included a small fork to eat the xxxing bone marrow. has anyone ever tried the bone marrow?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's like a meat puree.

It seems a shame you didn't try it. As you can gather from the thread, most people like the high end dining as a way to experience new things.

[BretWeir]

[ QUOTE ]
if anyone ventures to northern NJ, might I recommend Lorena's. First-rate and reasonable. Chef from March, Daniel, Nicholas (also in NJ and likewise worth the trip).

http://restaurantlorena.com

[/ QUOTE ]

Lorena's is great -- high-end NYC quality at NJ prices.

Another wonderful place along the same lines is Cafe Matisse (http://www.cafematisse.com/) in Rutherford.

They don't have traditional courses; instead, it's a "small plate" menu that you can mix and match. So you can pick a six-plate dinner and essentially design a mini-tasting menu of your own.

Also, they don't have a liquor license (Rutherford is a dry town), but there's an attached wine shop with a fantastic selection of bottles and no restaurant markup. Last time I was there I picked up a Leeuwin Estates Art Series Chardonnay for about $85.

[silentbob]

[ QUOTE ]
bone marrow

[/ QUOTE ]
Think meat-flavored butter. It's that good. Honestly, I would rather have marrow than foie gras.

Though neither compare to the Wagyu carpaccio that I had at Craftsteak earlier this year. Mmmmmm.

[ClarkNasty]

Ate at Vitners Grill in Summerlin on Friday. Great food. Most notable was a caesar salad wrapped in prosciutto. ZOMG.

[ahnuld]

went to bleu raisin in montreal last night. Small (10 tables) byob restaurant near downtown montreal. French or quebecer cuisine.

Entree was seared foie gras. Iv had it here before and it really is the best foie gras iv ever tasted. They serve it with a caremelized pear and sauce that is out of this world good. Drank a decent bordeaux but the name escapes me.

Main course was Maigre de canard. Another very good dish. They always nail the meats like duck, caribou and venison. My friend ordered the fish which he claimed was only average, but this isnt surprising since they are not known for their fish.

Desert was a chocolate cake and 10 yo port. Also very very good. Dinner with tax and tip ran to 84$ but we easily saved 35 a person on the wine. This is high end in montreal. Id say it was worth the cost.