Idiocracy

[HoldingFolding]

I loved the concept of this movie, but the execution left something to be desired. Anyhoo, for those that haven't seen it, the opening sequence juxtapositions a couple that come across as 'intelligent' professionals & what I believe Americans woud refer to as a 'white trash' couple. The yuppies end up childless whilst the trailer couple end up with numerous offspring. This is extrapolated over a 500 year period with the result that the average IQ of the human race has been substantially reduced.

Does anyone else envisage a falling 'IQ' with perhaps increasing variance?

[PLOlover]

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Does anyone else envisage a falling 'IQ' with perhaps increasing variance?

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Yes, but not for genetic reasons.

[arahant]

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Does anyone else envisage a falling 'IQ' with perhaps increasing variance?

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Yes, but not for genetic reasons.

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Please share.

[PLOlover]

drugs, indoctrination as opposed to education, etc.

Just look at the feudal system model and how it is advantageous for the upper class to keep everyone stupid.

Fwiw, some data suggests that giving infants a lot of vaccines has an IQ lowering effect. Not that I want to argue that, or flouridation of water, etc., or having 30% of children on mind altering drugs like prozac or ritalin ... it's probably enough that the schools are total indoctrination centers and don't actually teach anymore.

[arahant]

huh...maybe.
so far, though, iq's have been going up pretty steadily across the world, and i believe variance has been decreasing (don't quote me on the latter)

[The Don]

Hilarious movie. Intelligence is no longer one of the most important factors in human survival... reproductive rate is.

Look at dogs and wolves, the latter are far more intelligent and adaptable to many different environments (forest, grasslands, tundra, deserts etc...) but because of circumstances created by humans, they are getting destroyed by dogs in terms of survival.

Humans are now doing it to themselves. Governments reward laziness and incompetence with the means to survive (welfare, unemployment, etc...). Additionally, the state of economies in western societies is so that a human capable of doing one simple task, say... delivering packages, can ensure the survival of a large number of offspring. The biological incentive for smarter, more creative, and more adaptive humans is quite low at the moment.

In short, I'd say there is a pretty good chance of this actually happening.

[SitNHit]

Have you seen "What the Bleep do we know" its a good one too.

Cause really, what the hell do we really know.

My Dad always said, and this is true he did say it,

"When you know, you will never know, then you really know"

Hes a good man.

[VarlosZ]

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Fwiw, some data suggests that giving infants a lot of vaccines has an IQ lowering effect.

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Cite?

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. . . or having 30% of children on mind altering drugs like prozac or ritalin

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30%? Cite for these drugs lowering IQs in the first place?

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it's probably enough that the schools are total indoctrination centers and don't actually teach anymore.

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On balance, schools in America and elsewhere are probably further from being "indoctrination centers" than at any other time in human history.

[PLOlover]

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Fwiw, some data suggests that giving infants a lot of vaccines has an IQ lowering effect.



Cite?

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You can look it up for yourself, but just off the top of my head, mercury is a proven neurotoxic. Perhaps if vaccines are "cleaned up" with regard to mercury this would not be the case, I'm not sure.

In any case, what I said is that if there is some sort of IQ lowering effect, it will not be because of genetics. The germans basically killed every smart pole and there was no lasting effect.

What you say about schools is somewhat shocking. I can only imagine you are upper middle class or somewhat old.

but in any case the movie captures perfectly the bureaucratic mentality at its worst.

[madnak]

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On balance, schools in America and elsewhere are probably further from being "indoctrination centers" than at any other time in human history.

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While I agree with this and know the subject isn't that relevant to the thread, I'd say schools are still indoctrination centers first and learning institutions second.

[VarlosZ]

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You can look it up for yourself. . .

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I tried to before I asked for a cite, and found nothing useful. The only page that even mentioned a possible link didn't exactly wow me with its credibility.

So, really, any peer-reviewed studies which suggest that vaccination leads to lower intelligence?

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What you say about schools is somewhat shocking.

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It shouldn't be. I went to Catholic and public schools at which you could adhere to any religion or no religion. You could advocate for democracy, communism, anarchy, etc. according to your whim. My experience in these regards is standard in the U.S., Europe, and many other places, which is almost unique to modern times. Or, at least, it is unique in the degree of religious/political freedom.

Surely there is some amount of editorializing going on, and lessons are bound to come from a perspective that reflects support for the "establishment." This is probably inevitable, as schools are run by people as biased and closed-minded as the rest of us.

How is it, though, that schools today are 'indoctrination centers' in ways that they haven't always been?

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I can only imagine you are upper middle class or somewhat old.

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I'm 26 and middle class. You?

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In any case, what I said is that if there is some sort of IQ lowering effect, it will not be because of genetics.

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Do you mean IQs per se, or actual intelligence? If you mean the latter, then the cause would have to be genetic (discounting for the moment the poison vaccine/water flouridation theories).

[VarlosZ]

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On balance, schools in America and elsewhere are probably further from being "indoctrination centers" than at any other time in human history.

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While I agree with this and know the subject isn't that relevant to the thread, I'd say schools are still indoctrination centers first and learning institutions second.

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I could agree with that depending on how you define your terms. It's not necessarily a bad thing, though.

[m_the0ry]

/me becomes Devils Advocate.

Intelligence is on the decline because humanity has decided that any execution (social or physical) of eugenics is immoral; that is, every person is entitled to life and reproduction. In the animal kingdom the weak and stupid are killed and eaten. The concept of ethics protects the weak and stupid and explicitly allows them to procreate ad absurdum.

[PLOlover]

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So, really, any peer-reviewed studies which suggest that vaccination leads to lower intelligence?

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You realize the FDA or EPA or something recently said that arsenic was good for you, right? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe mercury is good for you too.

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I'm 26 and middle class. You?

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Old and poor.


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Do you mean IQs per se, or actual intelligence? If you mean the latter, then the cause would have to be genetic (discounting for the moment the poison vaccine/water flouridation theories).

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Why is that?

[PLOlover]

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/me becomes Devils Advocate.

Intelligence is on the decline because humanity has decided that any execution (social or physical) of eugenics is immoral; that is, every person is entitled to life and reproduction. In the animal kingdom the weak and stupid are killed and eaten. The concept of ethics protects the weak and stupid and explicitly allows them to procreate ad absurdum.

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you could just as easily say that the smartest most successful men choose the hottest, dumbest women to procreate with. lol.

[m_the0ry]

Well there are two problems, runaway sexual selection (your case) and lack of natural predators. Runaway sexual selection arguably leads to some of the genetic "leaps" that wouldn't be possible for gradual evolution. I think that makes it acceptable. The problem is there's no predatory filter for when runaway sexual selection leads to masses of stupid and weak people. Ideally the predator species would scale up in strength as humans get smarter and stronger. It's economics: competition leads to success.

[VarlosZ]

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So, really, any peer-reviewed studies which suggest that vaccination leads to lower intelligence?

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You realize the FDA or EPA or something recently said that arsenic was good for you, right? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe mercury is good for you too.

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I've never heard of arsenic's being good for you, but I know it's pretty much harmless in small enough doses. Truth be told, I wasn't aware that some vaccines contain mercury (though a quick Google search confirms it to be true). I would imagine the mercury used in vaccines is harmless in the same way as arsenic -- if it wasn't, I'd imagine that there would be evidence of this by now.

I don't mean to be a hard-ass about this, but can you point to something credible that says there's evidence for vaccinations being bad for intelligence? There are a lot of unfounded rumors surrounding vaccination out there, and it's a subject on which there is a ton of high-quality research available, so I'm not wild about a completely unsupported claim that pediatricians all over the world are making people dumber.

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Do you mean IQs per se, or actual intelligence? If you mean the latter, then the cause would have to be genetic (discounting for the moment the poison vaccine/water flouridation theories).

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Why is that?

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Because intelligence is a genetic trait. Terrible schools could produce adults who are profoundly ignorant and effectively unable to use critical thought, but they could not produce adults whose offspring would be innately stupid, as in the movie.

[vhawk01]

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So, really, any peer-reviewed studies which suggest that vaccination leads to lower intelligence?

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You realize the FDA or EPA or something recently said that arsenic was good for you, right? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe mercury is good for you too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard of arsenic's being good for you, but I know it's pretty much harmless in small enough doses. Truth be told, I wasn't aware that some vaccines contain mercury (though a quick Google search confirms it to be true). I would imagine the mercury used in vaccines is harmless in the same way as arsenic -- if it wasn't, I'd imagine that there would be evidence of this by now.

I don't mean to be a hard-ass about this, but can you point to something credible that says there's evidence for vaccinations being bad for intelligence? There are a lot of unfounded rumors surrounding vaccination out there, and it's a subject on which there is a ton of high-quality research available, so I'm not wild about a completely unsupported claim that pediatricians all over the world are making people dumber.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you mean IQs per se, or actual intelligence? If you mean the latter, then the cause would have to be genetic (discounting for the moment the poison vaccine/water flouridation theories).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that?

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Because intelligence is a genetic trait. Terrible schools could produce adults who are profoundly ignorant and effectively unable to use critical thought, but they could not produce adults whose offspring would be innately stupid, as in the movie.

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There are similar theories that vaccinations have caused the dramatic increase in the cases of diagnosed autism as well, but as far as I know, most of those theories have been debunked as far as they cite data and dismissed as far as they don't.

[PLOlover]

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Because intelligence is a genetic trait. Terrible schools could produce adults who are profoundly ignorant and effectively unable to use critical thought, but they could not produce adults whose offspring would be innately stupid, as in the movie.

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I don't know, it could be a cultural thing. Parents pass on more than just genes to their children.

As far as vaccines and mercury and stuff, let me be clear. I was saying that if something like what happened in the movie were to happen it would be due to environmental forces, not the genetic premise as in the movie. I gave vaccines as an example of a possible iq lowering environmental stressor, which it may be. It may not be. For example, did you know that there is a vaccine to "immunize" people against nicotine to get them to stop smoking? I mean I could see something like that dumbing down the masses, where a lamarckian genetic deal would not.

fwiw, the japanese stopped vaccinating <2 year olds I think because of the possible side effects.

as far as peer reviewed studies, I don't see any money in that. How many people did Viox kill before they couldn't cover that up anymore?

[VarlosZ]

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I don't know, it could be a cultural thing. Parents pass on more than just genes to their children.

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Fair enough; I was using a somewhat restrictive definition of intelligence.

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As far as vaccines and mercury and stuff, let me be clear. I was saying that if something like what happened in the movie were to happen it would be due to environmental forces, not the genetic premise as in the movie. I gave vaccines as an example of a possible iq lowering environmental stressor, which it may be. It may not be.

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I hear that, but I also hear you using anecdotes and conjecture to cast doubt on the safety of vaccination, and you have another thread going in this forum that's attacking a vaccine. So, it seems like you're using vaccines as something more than a hypothetical example, you know?

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as far as peer reviewed studies, I don't see any money in that. How many people did Viox kill before they couldn't cover that up anymore?

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Right, you usually don't want to get your science from, say, a pharmaceutical lobbying group. That hardly means that there's no money is peer-reviewed studies, though. Someone who comes along and proves a previously unkown public health risk secures his reputation and furthers his career.

Besides, what do you think it was that got the ball rolling on the Vioxx recall? A peer-reviewed study (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vioxx#VIGOR_study), of course.

[govman6767]

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and lack of natural predators

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Right and that's why no decent person living in a city can walk outside at night.
If you want to solve the idiocracy problem in America we should start doing something to get these scumbag gang members and no IQ rednecks and ship them to where they belong.... Antartica.

[PLOlover]

http://www.aapsonline.org/press/nr-thimerosal.htm

[madnak]

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you could just as easily say that the smartest most successful men choose the hottest, dumbest women to procreate with. lol.

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I think hotness and intelligence are positively correlated. I also think libido and intelligence are positively correlated. Which isn't to say I don't [censored] stupid chicks.

There is definitely a component that people aren't properly emphasizing, and that's the minority of extremely smart people. I think most smart people, when they do reproduce, try to select other smart people as mates rather consistently. These kinds of selection mechanisms are a big deal - especially since by definition those who choose to reproduce will be selected for and as time passes the geniuses will have an inherent desire for offspring that overrides intellectual concerns.

I haven't seen (or read) Idiocracy, but I think this is a component of it. I wouldn't be surprised if two races of humans developed. I think the Idiocracy version is probably more realistic than the Time Machine version, because I do think intellect will tend to have a much stronger impact than socioeconomic class (over the long term).