Probably a boring JJ hand against meleader2 & donk

[thac]

CO in this hand is meleader2, and while I haven't seen him play before, I have respect for his game just due to him being 2+2. He's running at 11/6 over 75 hands, so I'm proceeding cautiously and just call preflop (Also because I didn't wanna blow the donk out of this hand).

I'm playing 21/18 at this table over about 75 hands, and I've been taking down a lot of pots with continuation bets (only have shown down 3 hands, winning 1) My plan was to bet out at any board with unders and check/call with one over. I wanted to get meleader to fold and have the donk reshove allin.

I put myself in a real marginal situation here on the flop though, as I didn't know how to proceed with meleader still in the hand.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($30.50)
SB ($13.40)
Hero ($78.05)
UTG ($77.85)
MP ($50)
CO ($65.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $11.4 (All-In)</font>

Now what's my plan?

[EMc]

Why no 3 bet PF? I think that is your best plan here.

[thac]

Like I said I don't wanna blow the donk out of the hand and I don't wanna get in a big inflated pot preflop 3-way with JJ out of position.

[Gelford]

Meleader is a nit, but a thinking nit (haven't played with him in six month though, but his stats seem to indicate this still is true.

This is a protected pot, so basically you want to ask you self if you wish to lay down your hand or you intend to felt it anyway.

I can't see meleader playing with you, but since the board is wet'ish, I'd bet a healthy bet.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said I don't wanna blow the donk out of the hand and I don't wanna get in a big inflated pot preflop 3-way with JJ out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, missed that.

Hmmm in this case I think its tough. Calling/folding/pushing all feel wrong. Ill probably call here and then fold if ML2 pushes behind me.

[Gelford]

It is a funny little hand, a raise from the CO from a 2+2'er usually does not mean much, but those stats are very nitty .... sigh ... I really would think meleader plays more than that, but who knows ??

But still .. JJ is good I feel ... donk is short, so who cares ... and the only one we have to worry about is ML, but he is slightly squeze between you and the dumb short stack, lending a bit of protection to your hand.


I must admit, I would do as EMc suggest and 3bet pf. Jacks are good enough here

[kaz2107]

preflop is meh. i really think that a 3bet is better here. but a call is ok i guess. i think by 3 betting u a. find out if meleader is fareal here or wut and i think it will often get u either all in preflop with the fish as well as HU with the fish.

but as played i think i take a decent amount of time and then call with NO intentions of puttin n e more money in this pot. if meleader raises im insta folding and if he calls i wanna check down or fold unless i improve

[Gelford]

That might be better than my suggestion of betting behind donk, since Meleader looks like a nit, there might be no reason to put money in, since he is folding most of the time when he sees you call and else he most like have you beat.

[thac]

[ QUOTE ]
but as played i think i take a decent amount of time and then call with NO intentions of puttin n e more money in this pot. if meleader raises im insta folding and if he calls i wanna check down or fold unless i improve

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's what I did, I figured it was a boring hand. I cold-called and ML folded. Blahhh.

[Gelford]

Not that boring .. pf was commented and I made most likely dumb bet on the flop, so I benefited from that if nothing else ... /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[leehrat]

[ QUOTE ]
Meleader is a nit, but a thinking nit (haven't played with him in six month though, but his stats seem to indicate this still is true.

This is a protected pot, so basically you want to ask you self if you wish to lay down your hand or you intend to felt it anyway.

I can't see meleader playing with you, but since the board is wet'ish, I'd bet a healthy bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[meleader2]

i guess that's what i get for 8 tabling. i run differently on seperate tables depending on who's sitting. i probably wasn't playing loose cuz there weren't many bad players on it.

[illadelph86]

3-bet preflop definatly. as played id flat call. hes got a flush draw, but theres still a player to act behind you. obv fold if he reshoves...

[barryc83]

Nh. I'd just call and if ML2 raises GTFO bc youre beat like everytime. I'd 3bet pf still though, if he was UTG I'd prob just call.

[ipushufold]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said I don't wanna blow the donk out of the hand and I don't wanna get in a big inflated pot preflop 3-way with JJ out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty off reasons to believe that meleader2 will fold to a 3-bet and the donk will call it. I 3 bet preflop all the day. I call and fold to a shove on this flop.

[ama0330]

Woooowow this hand is freaking awesome! What a sweet spot, this is why we post hands.

You cant call here because if you do you have to fold to a push, which a 2p2 is more than capable of making with not much figuring he is ahead of both your ranges, and if he calls you are totally and completely [censored]. I would say you are push/fold here and I like to push.

We basically have two ranges to work with - M2's CO open range, and his Push-call range. I think that there is a big enough discrepancy between the two here to push over the top and be confident he will fold this dry flop. What I'm saying is that we can be reasonably confident that he will raise from the CO with more hands than he will call this push with, so we are good versus his range.

This spot made my balls tingle a little bit. Is that kinda wierd?

[ama0330]

On the other hand you are reasonably deep here, so a raise may be better than an overpush. Still I hate a call here.

And I 3bet this preflop every time because JJ is a terrible hand to play OOP against a wide range.

[ama0330]

To those who are saying call and fold to a push, what the hell? This really sucks. What do you think M2 is going to read you for? You are either in this hand or you arent, and calling here is a total disaster because it makes the pot completely unmanageable OOP against a thinking opponent who could easily push you off on the turn/river.

[ipushufold]

[ QUOTE ]
You cant call here because if you do you have to fold to a push, which a 2p2 is more than capable of making with not much figuring he is ahead of both your ranges, and if he calls you are totally and completely [censored]. I would say you are push/fold here and I like to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got one question to you ama0330. Do you think meleader will fold AA/KK/QQ here if we push? If he won't, (even if he will fold QQ) I am more leaning to calling since it absolutely fine tells us where we are in the hand depending on meleaders action.

We call.

-meleader fold. We are likely ahead of SB's range fitting his donk description. Ship it?

-meleader pushes. He won't push AK here playing 8 tables, and looking at this table, with a push and a call seeing a nice pot. Since he is a thinking player, why would he push over us with AK? He probably puts us at a monster and will fold that, leaving it to a push with only AA/KK/QQ

-meleader calls. We are done with the hand. Same logic as above. He won't call with AK. But he may think we are on a set and will just call with AA/KK/QQ and hope for a free showdown.

If he shoves with AK then I will take my hat off for him and say NP.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cant call here because if you do you have to fold to a push, which a 2p2 is more than capable of making with not much figuring he is ahead of both your ranges, and if he calls you are totally and completely [censored]. I would say you are push/fold here and I like to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got one question to you ama0330. Do you think meleader will fold AA/KK/QQ here if we push? If he won't, (even if he will fold QQ) I am more leaning to calling since it absolutely fine tells us where we are in the hand depending on meleaders action.

We call.

-meleader fold. We are likely ahead of SB's range fitting his donk description. Ship it?

-meleader pushes. He won't push AK here playing 8 tables, and looking at this table, with a push and a call seeing a nice pot. Since he is a thinking player, why would he push over us with AK? He probably puts us at a monster and will fold that, leaving it to a push with only AA/KK/QQ

-meleader calls. We are done with the hand. Same logic as above. He won't call with AK. But he may think we are on a set and will just call with AA/KK/QQ and hope for a free showdown.

If he shoves with AK then I will take my hat off for him and say NP.

[/ QUOTE ]

please note i will push A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif + here. and have done it with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[thac]

Wow, this thread got brought back from the dead. Good replies ama, and I agree - I got myself in a sticky situation, but I figured a lot of people would like to discuss this. Turns out I was right in that aspect - good discussion by everyone.

Results:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($30.50)
SB ($13.40)
Hero ($78.05)
UTG ($77.85)
MP ($50)
CO ($65.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $11.4 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $11.40, CO folds.

Turn: ($28.80) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($28.80) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $28.80

Results in white below:
SB has 5s 4s (two pair, tens and fives).
Hero has Js Jd (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $28.80.


So it turns out 3-betting here preflop would probably net me a very small pot, unless meleader had something to call my 3-bet with, but it doesn't look like it.. so maybe I pick up $4.

Interested to see if there are any more comments after this.

[ipushufold]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You cant call here because if you do you have to fold to a push, which a 2p2 is more than capable of making with not much figuring he is ahead of both your ranges, and if he calls you are totally and completely [censored]. I would say you are push/fold here and I like to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got one question to you ama0330. Do you think meleader will fold AA/KK/QQ here if we push? If he won't, (even if he will fold QQ) I am more leaning to calling since it absolutely fine tells us where we are in the hand depending on meleaders action.

We call.

-meleader fold. We are likely ahead of SB's range fitting his donk description. Ship it?

-meleader pushes. He won't push AK here playing 8 tables, and looking at this table, with a push and a call seeing a nice pot. Since he is a thinking player, why would he push over us with AK? He probably puts us at a monster and will fold that, leaving it to a push with only AA/KK/QQ

-meleader calls. We are done with the hand. Same logic as above. He won't call with AK. But he may think we are on a set and will just call with AA/KK/QQ and hope for a free showdown.

If he shoves with AK then I will take my hat off for him and say NP.

[/ QUOTE ]

please note i will push A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif + here. and have done it with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Won't you call with those hands aswell? (nvm didn't notice you guys where semideep) But with normal stacks?

[barryc83]

[ QUOTE ]
To those who are saying call and fold to a push, what the hell? This really sucks. What do you think M2 is going to read you for? You are either in this hand or you arent, and calling here is a total disaster because it makes the pot completely unmanageable OOP against a thinking opponent who could easily push you off on the turn/river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing is ama, is that ML2 is a huge nit and wouldnt bluff right there IMO. I've prob played like 400 hands against him. I'm not saying he's a bad player or anything, he's just a good bit on the tighter side of TAG. If he pushes right there, he's bigger than JJ. If he calls well then we have a decision. ML2 isnt gonna bluff here IMO like ever.

Also, even though he's a nit I'd 3ball pf if he opens from the CO.