KJs vs donkbet on flop.

[matrix]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed)

UTG ($20.95)
Hero ($24.65)
CO ($18.45)
Button ($24.84)
SB ($17.73)
BB ($11.04)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, CO calls $1, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG (Villain)/ calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.35) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

<font color="red">UTG bets $0.70</font>,<font color="red">Hero raises $2.75</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">UTG raises $4.85</font> Hero ???


no reads particularly as I've recently sat down - table is very loose preflop and players are respecting the fact that you raise preflop without too much regard to how much you raise, i.e. if they are going to call preflop for $0.75 - they'll call $1.25 as well - if they are going to fold to a raise a minraise will make them fold...

what has UTG got? and whats my play?

[corsakh]

This is 25NL, right?

[SCBielski]

villain's stats?

[matrix]

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This is 25NL, right?

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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed)

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villain's stats?

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no reads particularly as I've recently sat down

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[Gelford]

That is one donkish line villian is taking, but given your read that the table bet and raise without any clue to betsizes, it could look like he has got something good.

At worst it is a draw else it is a king and this early in the session I'd give credit for his hand and just lay it down ... lets see some showdowns from villian before be start either running him over or valuebetting thin.


I haven't played a couple of months though, so my timing (advice) might be off.

[Rev. Good Will]

A better king is improbable for most opponents. For a lot of decent players, a limp/call means a PP, but since this table is a bit donkish, maybe include Axs, and some SC's. On the flop, that lead looks weak, most likely a draw pricing itself in.

Now that he 3bet you, we would need a read to continue; as it takes a certain opponent to 3bet you with a draw on the flop. I must admit I am very tempted to calldown being we are getting close to 1:3, and if he keeps underbetting, we can call down for cheap.

[Gelford]

A better king .. well ... a set as you say.

I dunno, calling 3 bet and reevaluating turn can't be wrong either .... you can play it from behind, but I just don't like playing this hand from ahead, at least for now ... after a few orbit things might be quite different.

That is more or less what I meant. (And whether to continue playing from behind or just fold, well ... I think Matrixs got a better feel for that, I dunno)

[svidrigailov]

If it's villain is completely terrible I'm tempted to call, largely hoping that his turn action will reveal his range -- like min bet or weird overbet, etc. If it's a kinda passive/standard fishy type prob fold. In a vacuum it certainly looks like you're behind and that might be enough without reads.

[matrix]

some time later.... I learn that villain is a 75/5/1 donk.

does this change your play in the OP hand?

I'll post my thoughts on this hand and getting donkbet into generally a bit later.

[thac]

I dislike calling his 3-bet here, as others have said because you have no reads on the player. If you wanted to continue with this hand, you could call his flop bet and see what he does on the turn. Even though CO is in the pot still and can squeeze you out, I like a flat call here. You can't stand a re-raise and there's no point inflating this pot on the flop with just TPGK.

[Gelford]

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some time later.... I learn that villain is a 75/5/1 donk.

does this change your play in the OP hand?


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Yeah, you just clean him up then.

The only consideration then is whether you want to get your money in on flop or turn. (they usually do not call river, but will chase till then, right ?)

I might just call three bet and then if turn blanks fire big.

He might have be lucky and have a hand, but against such players it usually is no disaster to stack of, as they usually lose it all eventually again and hopefully to you.

Since we do not know if donk reload, I am willing to take a chance or two to get to his money before the rest of the table does and KJ is not that bad.


The only consideration is this (I'm not quite sure how to read the stat). If he is ever passively calling everything and never betting, then the threebet spells disaster, but if he just donks around unrationally, then it doesn't.

I have no feel whether he is the pure calling station or just pure donk, the first is preferable.

[Hank Scorpio]

Villian's line reeks of strength.

[svidrigailov]

[ QUOTE ]
some time later.... I learn that villain is a 75/5/1 donk.

does this change your play in the OP hand?

I'll post my thoughts on this hand and getting donkbet into generally a bit later.

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Putting him on a range becomes difficult. 78? K8? AK? Everything is in there. He has b3b you in his own special way, that must mean something considering the low aggression. Of course, vs loose-passives you should be willing to bet more hands for value, but what about when they start raising?

[Mal_Pais]

[ QUOTE ]
some time later.... I learn that villain is a 75/5/1 donk.

does this change your play in the OP hand?

I'll post my thoughts on this hand and getting donkbet into generally a bit later.

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I fold to the minraise. Villian is too passive to be raising on a semibluff or top pair. And his range includes 75% of the deck. He has K8 or K7, or a donked-up, butchered set.

[illuminati]

lol at butchered set.

i hate getting donked into *small* like villains line - and often wonder whether raising is good. sometimes i just call and evaluate the turn. this is also good for pot control.

[matrix]

I don't like calling here and re-evaluating turn either readless or knowing he's a super loose passive type.

I prefer raising the flop and finding out where I am sooner rather than later. (Note I am raising for value for the times he has a worse king than I do - or for the times he folds - I am not *just* raising for info)

If I raise the flop he'll call (he's drawing most likely) raise (he flopped 2pair/set) or fold (his donk bet was a feeble attempt to get me to fold)

IIRC Supersystem advocates betting into a pfr with a hand like a set that you want to b3b to get top value from and lots of donks read Supersystem.

If I raise his flop bet (but not tooo big) I can spring his trap and get away cheap, if I call depending on what falls on the turn it gets more expensive and it gets harder to ead his hand.

I folded here - I put him on 78 K7 K8 77 88 and vs that range I'm cooked.

I think often a donklead and then a 3bet after you raise pre and then flop a small pot hand is a big hand and it's better to try and fold the villain and risk him c/r with a draw (which I think is quite rare at uNL) which we fold to rather than to call and hope he keeps donking into us small and paying him more chips later.

Sometimes with this line I am folding the best hand - meh I've not invested too much here and this could well turn into a RIO spot.

[Gelford]

The way I actually view this hand is like this, for me donkbet in uNL (especially feable ones like this) are often weakness, and basically I think that raising them will win it here often.

Also if raise is called, then a solid bet after a turn check often wins it ... etc etc.


I didn't get the impression that we where discussing whether to call the donkbet, but whether to call the three bet. Some wanted to call it and revaluate turn ... I argued a fold, allthough nothing wrong with calling an revaluating turn as stated after me.

Calling flop seem dumb to me.