Please post your favorite Bible verses here [Archive]

madnak

02-13-2007, 09:35 PM

I'll do a few classics.

"Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war.
And Moses said to them, 'Have you spared all the women?
Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." Numbers 31:14-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=31&version=49)

"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!'
When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number." 2 Kings 2:23-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=2&version=49)

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
And a man's enemies will be the members of his household." Matt. 10:34-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=49)

Zeno

02-13-2007, 10:03 PM

They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

Psalm 73 v. 9, KJV

This verse is about Zeno: Master of the Universe.

Le Misanthrope

PuppyFridayYall

02-13-2007, 10:08 PM

Any inspiring ones folks?

Skidoo

02-13-2007, 10:13 PM

Perhaps you could ask people to state why a particular verse is their favorite.

ojc02

02-13-2007, 10:18 PM

Genesis:
19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Edit: This is my fav because I love hearing how all the sketchy things in the bible are just metaphors. There must really be a solid message of kindness and morality hidden there, mustn't there?

NotReady

02-13-2007, 11:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Any inspiring ones folks?

[/ QUOTE ]

1 Corinthians 13
The Excellence of Love
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Justin A

02-14-2007, 02:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ezekiel 25:17
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just a movie quote, not a bible verse.

NotReady

02-14-2007, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]

This is just a movie quote, not a bible verse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of it isn't, I guess. The last part is at least similar.

Pulp Fiction:

And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Ezekiel 25
17And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Wiki says this:

This is, in fact, not an actual passage from the Bible, but a collage of several passages. Ezekiel 25:17 in the King James Version reads:

And I will execute great vengeance upon thee with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Jules's pronouncement is a typically obscure Tarantino reference to Karate Kiba/Chiba the Bodyguard, a 1976 film starring Sonny Chiba, whom the director would later cast in Kill Bill. Karate Kiba opens with a nearly identical misquote, likewise attributed to Ezekiel 25:17

Metric

02-14-2007, 03:52 AM

Proverbs 14:33
Wisdom reposes in the heart of the discerning
and even among fools she lets herself be known.

PLOlover

02-14-2007, 07:44 AM

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die". (Ezekiel 18:4)

* "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5 RSV)

* "For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 RSV)

* "Brethren, I may say to you confidently of the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.... For David did not ascend into the heavens" (Acts 2:29,34 RSV)

* "No one has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13 RSV)

SitNHit

02-14-2007, 08:24 AM

This one has to be maybe my favorite cause it holds so true to today.

Job 40:8 Would you discredit My justice? Would you condemn Me to justify yourself?
____

# "What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? …Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

—James 2:14,24
_______
Jeremiah 29:13

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. .
____
Gen 4:7

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.
__
Jos 1:8-9 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go.
__
Isa 7:9 If you do not stand firm in your faith, you will not stand at all.
__

thats it for now,

HajiShirazu

02-14-2007, 05:43 PM

If this bible stuff about god is true, is it okay to pull for satan?

NotReady

02-14-2007, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If this bible stuff about god is true, is it okay to pull for satan?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're pulling for him by default.

Prodigy54321

02-14-2007, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If this bible stuff about god is true, is it okay to pull for satan?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're pulling for him by default.

[/ QUOTE ]

atheist = satanist NotReady?

mbillie1

02-14-2007, 06:45 PM

So, are bible verses considered science, math or philosophy?

Edit: not trolling, just wondering what the justification is for this. Lots of pretty vicious atheism v religion arguments, not such much sci/math/philo...

NotReady

02-14-2007, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

atheist = satanist NotReady?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Satanism is a specific religion. Atheists just don't want God to exist, but if the God of the Bible does, they want Satan to win. At least that is the logic of their position.

NotReady

02-14-2007, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So, are bible verses considered science, math or philosophy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosophy is a branch of theology. Science can't really escape ultimate questions, though it claims to.

mbillie1

02-14-2007, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Philosophy is a branch of theology. Science can't really escape ultimate questions, though it claims to.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an interesting take... I don't think you can make that argument hold up with respect to philosophy after about 1880.

NotReady

02-14-2007, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]

That's an interesting take... I don't think you can make that argument hold up with respect to philosophy after about 1880.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not directly. Still, they deal with the same subject matter concerning ultimate questions. Most reformed theologians would maintain that the views held by atheistic philosophers are grounded in what are essentially religious positions. I don't consider it important, more a matter of form over substance.

mbillie1

02-14-2007, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not directly. Still, they deal with the same subject matter concerning ultimate questions. Most reformed theologians would maintain that the views held by atheistic philosophers are grounded in what are essentially religious positions. I don't consider it important, more a matter of form over substance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly don't dispute the relationship of theology to philosophy. I would, however, hesitate to list philosophy as a branch of theology (or vice versa). Certainly nothing Merleau-Ponty or Sartre did was whatsoever related to any theological issues. Just being picky though I guess.

Prodigy54321

02-14-2007, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

atheist = satanist NotReady?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Satanism is a specific religion. Atheists just don't want God to exist, but if the God of the Bible does, they want Satan to win. At least that is the logic of their position.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Atheists just don't want God to exist

[/ QUOTE ]

this is not true for many atheists..probably nearly all depending on the specific god.

not believing that this god exists does not necessarily mean that we wouldn't want him to exist.

[ QUOTE ]
but if the God of the Bible does, they want Satan to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that the Bible would paint satan in a bad light, so without more info it's hard to say...but I would guess that most atheists would rather that God win over Satan.

[ QUOTE ]
At least that is the logic of their position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea why you think this is true.

NotReady

02-14-2007, 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Certainly nothing Merleau-Ponty or Sartre did was whatsoever related to any theological issues.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never read much Sartre though I'm generally familiar with his existentialism. Statements he makes about ultimate reality certainly are directly related to theology. Atheism is itself a theological position, answering the theological question, "Does God exist"?

But I see no reason to get bogged down in arguing whether his positions are theological.

mbillie1

02-14-2007, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've never read much Sartre though I'm generally familiar with his existentialism. Statements he makes about ultimate reality certainly are directly related to theology. Atheism is itself a theological position, answering the theological question, "Does God exist"?

But I see no reason to get bogged down in arguing whether his positions are theological.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever... I think you are just deliberately viewing all philosophy from the perspective of theology, but I agree that this is a pointless argument.

Edit: claiming atheism (as lack of belief in god) is a theological position is an absurd chicken/egg argument, btw.

Prodigy54321

02-14-2007, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Science can't really escape ultimate questions, though it claims to.

[/ QUOTE ]

science does not posit that they are all valid..it does not try to answer those..such as "untimate good and evil"

it does not try to escape any questions that are valid...it may not have an answer yet..but it doesn't pretend that they aren't valid.

Religion or Theology have not done any better..so it is no fault of science.

NotReady

02-14-2007, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I have no idea why you think this is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just read a few posts in this forum maligning the character of the Biblical God. Read any popular atheist like Dawkins. Look at how many literary critics actually think Milton meant Satan in Paradise Lost as a hero. Again, I'm addressing the logic of their position. God is cruel, murderous, evil, despotic, immoral, etc. Anything would be better than that. Since Satan isn't omnipotent, if he wins and is no better than God, then at least we would have a chance against him.

I'm not trying to make the case that atheists are pulling for what is generally associated with Satanism as a religion. My point is that they are against God as the absolute authority of all reality. So logically, if the God of the Bible exists and if Satan is trying to dethrone Him, they would be pulling for Satan. If they're not, then good for them, even though that position may be irrational.

madnak

02-14-2007, 08:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
God is cruel, murderous, evil, despotic, immoral, etc. Anything would be better than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not someone even more cruel, muderous, evil, despotic, immoral, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
Since Satan isn't omnipotent, if he wins and is no better than God, then at least we would have a chance against him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if Satan defeats God, then he wasn't omnipotent either, was he?

Given that we consider Satan to be a fictional character, I think virtually all of us would have to answer that who we would "root for" in such a fight would depend entirely on the nature of the two figures involved. The idea that there is some "absolute" nature that each figures has is all well and good, but from our perspectives this is definitely not the case. It may be that most atheists would support your conception of Satan over your conception of God, but that's completely different.

I do think some popular Christian views of the devil paint him in a more heroic light than the Christians may realize. For example, the idea that Lucifer was the greatest and wisest angels, but then he opposed God. If Lucifer was indeed the greatest and wisest angel, he must certainly have realized the consequences of opposing God. Thus, he willingly chose to suffer the worst possible fate. Why would he do that? He was just really, really angry and not thinking about the consequences?

Bringing other cultural influences into the picture, the idea of Satan as a figure who sacrifices himself in order to give humanity hope isn't particularly unrealistic. But then again, it's just one more interpretation of a fictional character.

Prodigy54321

02-14-2007, 08:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I'm addressing the logic of their position. God is cruel, murderous, evil, despotic, immoral, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

since when do all atheists believe this is true?

it happens to be that when a person is no longer pressured to think of this god as good, they see that he is not..

but you'll have to place the people who believe god to be cruel in another separate category, because atheism in no was necessitates that position.

whiskeytown

02-15-2007, 12:24 AM

John 15:18-19

If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first - If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as it's own. However, because you do not belong to the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.

Magic_Man

02-15-2007, 01:07 AM

Back to some bible quotes. Here are some good ones:

Exodus 21:15
"Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death."

Exodus 21:17
"Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

Exodus 21:20-21
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Exodus 21:19-20
"Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed."

I'd post more quotes, but apparently I have a LOT of killing to do, so I'll be back after I finish doing the Lord's work.

PLOlover

02-15-2007, 01:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
John 15:18-19

If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first - If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as it's own. However, because you do not belong to the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's the winner.

ojc02

02-15-2007, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Exodus 21:19-20
"Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed."

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the animal have to be killed too?

HoldingFolding

02-15-2007, 03:33 AM

John 4:13

"There shall in that time be rumors of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia-work base, that has an attachment. At that time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight O'clock"

2OuterJitsu

02-15-2007, 10:29 AM

Revelation Chapter 3

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit thee out of my mouth.

cardcounter0

02-15-2007, 01:04 PM

Proverbs 21:20 "In the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish man devours all he has."

Dkay04

02-15-2007, 01:16 PM

Isaiah 40:31

"But those who wait on the Lord

Shall renew their strength;

They shall mount up with wings like eagles,

They shall run and not be weary,

They shall walk and not faint."

soon2bepro

02-15-2007, 02:25 PM

Deuteronomy 20:10-17
When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves... This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Numbers 15:32
While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day...And the Lord said to Moses, 'The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.' And all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Skidoo

02-15-2007, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If Lucifer was indeed the greatest and wisest angel, he must certainly have realized the consequences of opposing God. Thus, he willingly chose to suffer the worst possible fate. Why would he do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was probably for the same reason that Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit after being warned of the consequences.

Cumulonimbus

02-15-2007, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

atheist = satanist NotReady?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Satanism is a specific religion. Atheists just don't want God to exist, but if the God of the Bible does, they want Satan to win. At least that is the logic of their position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once believed in God. I liked believing in God. I miss believing in God. Sometimes I wish I was as ignorant as I once was, but then I remembered that in this world, truth and logic > joy and faith.

lol at you. After all the discussion on this forum, your conclusion about atheists is that they just don't wanna believe in God? Following that 'logic', I guess that explains why you've kept your faith for so long: you just want to believe. Bah.

Cumulonimbus

02-15-2007, 04:38 PM

Oh and my contribution to this thread:
101 Bible Contradictions, in quiz form. (http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm)

NotReady

02-15-2007, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

After all the discussion on this forum, your conclusion about atheists is that they just don't wanna believe in God?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that all atheists don't want the God of the Bible to exist. They may well want the God who is a figment of their imagination to exist. If you're an exception and really want Him to exist He will guide you into the truth.

[ QUOTE ]

Following that 'logic', I guess that explains why you've kept your faith for so long: you just want to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do want to believe. I believe the reason is that God changes a person's nature. When I first became a Christian it wasn't because I wanted the God of the Bible. Over time, the more I learn about Him, the more I want it to be true. And I have no doubt that He is working in me to produce that attitude.

Prodigy54321

02-15-2007, 05:54 PM

Skidoo

02-15-2007, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I once believed in God. I liked believing in God. I miss believing in God. Sometimes I wish I was as ignorant as I once was, but then I remembered that in this world, truth and logic > joy and faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

truth and lol > your logic-free narrative

NotReady

02-15-2007, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

although I believe that it's hard to find the Christian god as anything but repulsive when not pressure to do so,

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the support.

Magic_Man

02-15-2007, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

After all the discussion on this forum, your conclusion about atheists is that they just don't wanna believe in God?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that all atheists don't want the God of the Bible to exist. They may well want the God who is a figment of their imagination to exist. If you're an exception and really want Him to exist He will guide you into the truth.

[ QUOTE ]

Following that 'logic', I guess that explains why you've kept your faith for so long: you just want to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do want to believe. I believe the reason is that God changes a person's nature. When I first became a Christian it wasn't because I wanted the God of the Bible. Over time, the more I learn about Him, the more I want it to be true. And I have no doubt that He is working in me to produce that attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could you possibly want the God of the Bible to exist in FAVOR of other Gods?? The God of the Bible commits mass slaughter of innocents. Wouldn't you prefer an all-loving God?? The reason (or one of the reasons) atheists don't want the God of the Bible to exist is because they are sickened by all the killing and violence. Of COURSE they prefer another imaginary God to exist. How could you not?

madnak

02-15-2007, 07:06 PM

Did you miss the part where he said that he initially didn't, but as he continues to go through rituals designed to glorify such a God and to repeat the words attributed to the God, his desire slowly increases?

I mean, it seems clear to me what's going on - he's systematically brainwashing himself into believing that such a God is desirable. And it's very disturbing.

NotReady

02-15-2007, 07:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The reason (or one of the reasons) atheists don't want the God of the Bible to exist is because they are sickened by all the killing and violence. Of COURSE they prefer another imaginary God to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the support.

NotReady

02-15-2007, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Did you miss the part where he said that he initially didn't, but as he continues to go through rituals designed to glorify such a God and to repeat the words attributed to the God, his desire slowly increases?

[/ QUOTE ]

You read very creatively if not very accurately.

[ QUOTE ]

he's systematically brainwashing himself into believing that such a God is desirable. And it's very disturbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice neutral word - brainwashing.

Prodigy54321

02-15-2007, 08:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

although I believe that it's hard to find the Christian god as anything but repulsive when not pressure to do so,

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the support.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it

NotReady

02-15-2007, 08:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't get it

[/ QUOTE ]

My posts in this thread allege that atheists hate the God of the Bible,don't want Him to exist, and want satan to win if He does exist,which was contested by some. That you find the God of the Bible repulsive supports my position.

I know, a little disingenous, just couldn't resist.

HoldingFolding

02-15-2007, 09:30 PM

If you like lego! (http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/gang_rape_and_dismemberment/jg19_22.html)

madnak

02-15-2007, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did you miss the part where he said that he initially didn't, but as he continues to go through rituals designed to glorify such a God and to repeat the words attributed to the God, his desire slowly increases?

[/ QUOTE ]

You read very creatively if not very accurately.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, those are just the conclusions I come to based on what you said, not what you actually said.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

he's systematically brainwashing himself into believing that such a God is desirable. And it's very disturbing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice neutral word - brainwashing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that post was a bit shrill. Interesting you responded to it, but not my earlier post (which was more relevant). To respond to your most recent post, even if all atheists hated the Christian God that would be no indication that they don't hate Satan even more, a point to which you haven't responded. Your argument is that we're on Satan's side, not that we dislike the God of the Bible (whether or not that's true - I agree with you that it is for virtually all rational people with an accurate understanding of him).

SitNHit

02-15-2007, 11:00 PM

You will know you have grown when you realize it doesnt matter what you want to be true, it matters what you truly in your heart believe to be true and whether you follow that. I don't truly believe I should have sex with lots of women before marriage, I know that I think that would be wrong. Although, I want so badly to not think that and to be able to do it, just cause thats what I want to be true, doesnt matter.

I even struggle with the fact that sometimes life would be easier to live if I never believed in God and just got to do whatever I wanted without feeling guilt or consequence, but that doesnt matter what I want to true or happen. What matters is going with what you know, and I truly believe that people have the power to know something that is as good as seeing something. Problem is most people go against what they truly feeling to what they want to be true and feel.

MidGe

02-15-2007, 11:13 PM

Umm, your emphasis tends to suggest that you may be "falsely" believing many things.

DougShrapnel

02-16-2007, 12:59 AM

Matty 27:46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani!

NotReady

02-16-2007, 01:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]

that would be no indication that they don't hate Satan even more

[/ QUOTE ]

They may hate satan more but still want him to win since he's the underdog. If satan can defeat God there would be hope that man can defeat satan and accomplish his true objective, becoming God.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that it is for virtually all rational people with an accurate understanding of him

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few atheists have an accurate understanding of God. Those that do hate Him the most because He is God and they aren't.

vhawk01

02-16-2007, 01:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

that would be no indication that they don't hate Satan even more

[/ QUOTE ]

They may hate satan more but still want him to win since he's the underdog. If satan can defeat God there would be hope that man can defeat satan and accomplish his true objective, becoming God.

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with you that it is for virtually all rational people with an accurate understanding of him

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few atheists have an accurate understanding of God. Those that do hate Him the most because He is God and they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is presupposing, of course, that YOU are the arbiter of the correct understanding of God.

NotReady

02-16-2007, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This is presupposing, of course, that YOU are the arbiter of the correct understanding of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really tired, trite attack.

What I mean is God's self-revelation in both nature and His word.

madnak

02-16-2007, 01:19 PM

vhawk01

02-16-2007, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is presupposing, of course, that YOU are the arbiter of the correct understanding of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really tired, trite attack.

What I mean is God's self-revelation in both nature and His word.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. Your previous post was assumedly an attack on atheists, claiming that they very rarely understand God, and this is the reason for their dislike of him. Well, thats an airtight argument, as long as the only way you can really understand God is to consider him to be the greatest guy ever.

Sorry if it was trite, but can you explain how I could possibly demonstrate that I have an accurate view of God and still maintain he is a jerk? If thats impossible, then my criticism stands.

NotReady

02-16-2007, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tired attack I'm referring to is claiming I'm arrogant, that Christians think they're right because they're better than everyone, etc.

[ QUOTE ]

can you explain how I could possibly demonstrate that I have an accurate view of God and still maintain he is a jerk? If thats impossible, then my criticism stands.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could be accurate about Him and think He's a jerk because you're wrong about what constitues jerkhood. Kinda the way satan probably feels about Him. Satan is somewhat accurate about God, but satan is the foolish one.

Prodigy54321

02-16-2007, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They may hate satan more but still want him to win since he's the underdog. If satan can defeat God there would be hope that man can defeat satan and accomplish his true objective, becoming God.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you really not understand why this doesn't make sense?

[ QUOTE ]
Very few atheists have an accurate understanding of God.

[/ QUOTE ]

as I already said...it is true that most atheists don't think of God in the same way that Christians do...

why is that?..again, I would say that it is because it is easy to see that God is actually repulsive when you look at it objectively and are not pressured to think of Him as good

[ QUOTE ]
Those that do hate Him the most because He is God and they aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

while I think this is true, it is misleading.

it's true that anyone with any type of decent morality can do a better job with those powers than the Christian god supposedly has.

so I guess it is natural for most people to rather have themselves as God than the actual God that is causing such great suffering..

but it is not some arbitrary 'want' to be God..I think most atheists would agree that it would be best for no one to have such power given such relative morality.

but if it's between me or the Christian god....I'd choose myself..or anyone of about 99.9% of the population of Earth.

------------------------------------------------

EDIT: call this all just my misunderstand of God if you will..but I call it being objective, rather than being afraid of what may happen to me if I don't believe that he is such a great guy.

Al Mirpuri

02-16-2007, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, are bible verses considered science, math or philosophy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosophy is a branch of theology. Science can't really escape ultimate questions, though it claims to.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is either incorrect or not provable. The ancient Greeks were doing philosophy 2500 years ago independently of any kind of theism.

madnak

02-16-2007, 07:27 PM

If I were God, you'd all get your own personal pocket universes. And maybe there'd be some kind of plaza where we could get together and play poker, drink beer.

revots33

02-17-2007, 12:53 AM

Guess I'll go with an oldie but a goodie, Psalm 23. I always thought this was one of the more beautiful bible passages:

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

NotReady

02-17-2007, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]

do you really not understand why this doesn't make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]

.again, I would say that it is because it is easy to see that God is actually repulsive when you look at it objectively and are not pressured to think of Him as good

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, thanks for the support.

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: call this all just my misunderstand of God if you will..but I call it being objective, rather than being afraid of what may happen to me if I don't believe that he is such a great guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue isn't being afraid of God. The issue is righteousness.

MidGe

02-17-2007, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The issue isn't being afraid of God. The issue is righteousness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not according to christians superstitions/beliefs. It is faith that is needed, not righteousness. The righteous atheist is condemned by your god. Hence my strong dislike of such a fantasist and immoral concept as the christian god.

Prodigy54321

02-17-2007, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

ask yourself..How can Satan defeat an omnipotent being?

[ QUOTE ]
The issue isn't being afraid of God. The issue is righteousness.

[/ QUOTE ]

to think that a man can distance himself from possible eternal torture is ridiculous

Mickey Brausch

02-17-2007, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Atheists just don't want God to exist...

[/ QUOTE ]You would be wrong there, for a significant part of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
...but if the God of the Bible does [exist], they want Satan to win.

[/ QUOTE ]If atheists don't believe in God, they don't believe in Satan either. And if it turns out God does exist, why would atheists turn to Satanists?

You are confused with your bad guys.

Mickey Brausch

02-17-2007, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Philosophy is a branch of theology.

[/ QUOTE ]So, the works of Nietzsche and Heidegger are part of Theology.

Correct?

yukoncpa

02-17-2007, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Atheists just don't want God to exist...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You would be wrong there, for a significant part of the time.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...but if the God of the Bible does [exist], they want Satan to win.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If atheists don't believe in God, they don't believe in Satan either. And if it turns out God does exist, why would atheists turn to Satanists?

You are confused with your bad guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t believe in the God of the bible or in Satan. But if the God of the bible does exist, he has a lot of explaining to do. He makes rules that are good for a great deal of people, but which are bad for others. He creates and seemingly condones the torture of many of his creations. Certainly, if the God of the bible does exist, then no rational person would turn towards Satan. But what exactly makes the God of the bible much better than the Satan of the bible? God gives us life after death, but what good is that if a great deal of us, particularly us good people, who simply can’t believe in him without some small shred of evidence, are destined to an eternity of punishment?

Again, Mickey, your point is well taken, why would I turn to Satanism, if God exists? No way. I just want some answers from God. Where is this God and why doesn’t he supply answers, even though during the course of my life, I’ve prayed and asked him for answers some thousand times or more. I’ve just received no reply.

NotReady

02-17-2007, 05:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]

How can Satan defeat an omnipotent being?

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't. But is God really omnipotent? Does satan believe He is? Even if he does, what else can he do?

[ QUOTE ]

to think that a man can distance himself from possible eternal torture is ridiculous

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking about the inaccuracy of atheists. God is righteous. Man is sinful. That's the issue.

NotReady

02-17-2007, 05:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]

You would be wrong there, for a significant part of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, they don't want the God of the Bible to exist. They may want a senile old grandfather in the sky who will overlook their faults and give them all the presents they want, I don't know.

[ QUOTE ]

If atheists don't believe in God, they don't believe in Satan either. And if it turns out God does exist, why would atheists turn to Satanists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say anything about satanists.

NotReady

02-17-2007, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

So, the works of Nietzsche and Heidegger are part of Theology.

Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

They deal with many of the same questions as theology. Nietzsche says there are no absolutes. Theology says there are. It isn't important how you classify them. I believe that theology is greater than and includes philosophy, but that's of no consequence. What does matter is what are the questions and how are they answered.

MidGe

02-17-2007, 05:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that theology is greater than and includes philosophy

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition theology is but a very small portion of philosophy. That portion that rests on a fantasy being as the author of all that exists. At least philosophy looks at both sides. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

yukoncpa

02-17-2007, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They deal with many of the same questions as theology. Nietzsche says there are no absolutes. Theology says there are. It isn't important how you classify them. I believe that theology is greater than and includes philosophy, but that's of no consequence. What does matter is what are the questions and how are they answered.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t see how you can say theology says there are absolutes. What are you talking about here, absolute morality? If so, absolute morality exists independently of what anyone thinks, including God. God can make rules, but some of those rules will not be good for some people. Those rules may be good relative to the rule maker. God’s morality is an example of relative morality.

Ralph Wiggum

02-17-2007, 10:27 AM

1 Corinthians 13:11

revots33

02-17-2007, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Again, they don't want the God of the Bible to exist. They may want a senile old grandfather in the sky who will overlook their faults and give them all the presents they want, I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering he killed thousands of innocent infants because they happened to be born Egyptian, why would ANYONE want such an obviously racist god to exist?

madnak

02-17-2007, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They may want a compassionate and intelligent grandfather in the sky who will not torture them for their faults

[/ QUOTE ]

Mickey Brausch

02-18-2007, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So, the works of Nietzsche and Heidegger are part of Theology. Correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

They deal with many of the same questions as theology.

[/ QUOTE ]So, they deal with k, which is part of P, while k (as you say) is also part of T.

And, from this, you deduce that set P is a member of set T.

Can you see the error of your ways ?

[ QUOTE ]
Nietzsche says there are no absolutes. Theology says there are.

[/ QUOTE ]So what's that supposed to mean?

I'm genuinely puzzled. Since both endeavors, philosophy and theology, concern themselves with the issue of absolutes, this means ..what exactly about which one incorporates the other?

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that theology is greater than and includes philosophy, but that's of no consequence.

[/ QUOTE ]What is of consequence, is your use of the operative word : you believe, indeed, and actually have noting else to base that contention on, i.e. that philosophy is ...part of theology. Jesus Christ Almighty.

[ QUOTE ]
[Atheists] don't want the God of the Bible to exist. They may want a senile old grandfather in the sky who will overlook their faults and give them all the presents they want, I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]Again, I point out the operative words : I don't know. Truly, you don't. As stated many a time, Man has come to realize that the gods of the past are his own creation, instead of vice versa. It cannot be denied, nevertheless, that a world with a God as prescribed in Christian religion, or even other monotheistic religions (which are, in any case, quite similar) would be vastly preferable for Man to the God-less world we actually inhabit. And for many reasons, too, which have been already presented in other threads. (It's really elementary stuff.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If atheists don't believe in God, they don't believe in Satan either. And if it turns out God does exist, why would atheists turn to Satanists?

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say anything about satanists.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, you said "Atheists just don't want God to exist; but if the God of the Bible does, they want Satan to win." People who prefer Satan over God are called Satanists. I will accept a retraction but cannot accept that the definition of Satanist has changed.

Oh, and you also said "[Atheists] may hate Satan more but still want him to win since he's the underdog."

You must be confusing atheists with long-shot bettors. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mickey Brausch

NotReady

02-18-2007, 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
I believe that theology is greater than and includes philosophy, but that's of no consequence.

What is of consequence, is your use of the operative word : you believe, indeed, and actually have noting else to base that contention on, i.e. that philosophy is ...part of theology. Jesus Christ Almighty.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really a tempest in a teapot. The labels don't matter, think of them as you like. What matters is the substance addressed.

[ QUOTE ]

It cannot be denied, nevertheless, that a world with a God as prescribed in Christian religion, or even other monotheistic religions (which are, in any case, quite similar) would be vastly preferable for Man to the God-less world we actually inhabit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a minority opinion among atheists. Certainly among the atheistis we have heard from on this forum.

[ QUOTE ]

People who prefer Satan over God are called Satanists. I will accept a retraction but cannot accept that the definition of Satanist has changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you google Satanism you will find there are many definitions. What I was referring to was those who belong to a religion that worships Satan.

[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and you also said "[Atheists] may hate Satan more but still want him to win since he's the underdog."

[/ QUOTE ]

The rest of that quote was:

If satan can defeat God there would be hope that man can defeat satan and accomplish his true objective, becoming God.

The point is man doesn't want an absolute ruler. So since satan is an underdog they want him to win because that would establish that God isn't omnipotent.

madnak

02-18-2007, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It cannot be denied, nevertheless, that a world with a God as prescribed in Christian religion, or even other monotheistic religions (which are, in any case, quite similar) would be vastly preferable for Man to the God-less world we actually inhabit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this is a minority opinion among atheists. Certainly among the atheistis we have heard from on this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

His statement is both true and false. our position is that there is no God "as prescribed in Christian religion." Christianity describes God as perfectly loving, and as vengeful. That's just one of the many reasons that the whole construction is inherently contradictory. But we have stated very clearly that we would prefer for a loving God to exist, so if that's the part he's referring to he's right. I don't think most of us would prefer the retributive God who will stick 99+% of us into a state of extreme and permanent torture over nothingness.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

People who prefer Satan over God are called Satanists. I will accept a retraction but cannot accept that the definition of Satanist has changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you google Satanism you will find there are many definitions. What I was referring to was those who belong to a religion that worships Satan.

[/ QUOTE ]

LaVey would have a field day with this thread. I am still quite convinced that no organized group has ever worshipped Satan. Those who have done so in recorded history have typically been psychotic and were raised in a Christian tradition.

Of course, by your reasoning I suppose everyone is a Satanist to some degree. Because don't you hold that worshipping anything from wealth to pagan deities to pantheons through history represents worshipping Satan in disguise? And hey, how else would anyone worship the "Deceiver?"

[ QUOTE ]
The rest of that quote was:

If satan can defeat God there would be hope that man can defeat satan and accomplish his true objective, becoming God.

The point is man doesn't want an absolute ruler. So since satan is an underdog they want him to win because that would establish that God isn't omnipotent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're way smarter than this. I can't tell if you're just twisting and trying to defend your argument or if you haven't tried to express it formally. Let me lay it out. There are four possibilities (assuming all kinds of crazy things, but that's the context we're working with).

1. God is omnipotent and God wins
2. God isn't omnipotent and God wins
3. God is omnipotent and Satan wins
4. God isn't omnipotent and Satan wins

Now, you're saying atheists are rooting for Satan. That is, for options 3 and 4. Of course, option 3 is inconsistent - if I were using Christian reasoning I might say that Satan works above and beyond logic or some weird thing, but unfortunately I'm an atheist. So you're claiming we're going for option 4. But we're really going for option 2, for most interpretations of Satan (just remember, we don't think he's a real being with real attributes, so whether we want him to win depends signficiantly on how we define him). Option 2, not option 4.

Now, it's probably true that most atheists would be happy if Satan were to win. That's not the same as hoping for such a result. The most important thing probably is the omnipotence of God. So I think you'll find most of us prefer 2 and 4 over 1. And if Satan wins, then we have acquired proof that God isn't omnipotent. However, the best possible solution would be for us to learn that God isn't omnipotent by some means independent of Satan winning, and for Satan to lose. I think very few of us actually want the sadistic liar Satan to be more powerful than God. That would just be scary.

goofball

02-18-2007, 08:00 PM

"I hate f.a.g.s"

Pokerlogist

02-19-2007, 05:40 PM

This could have been written about poker skill and poker luck:

Ecclesiastes 9:11
I have seen something else under the sun:
The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.

cnfuzzd

02-20-2007, 07:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Then there are others who, afraid of the suffering incident to the discriminations of life and death, unwisely seek Nirvana. They have come to see that all things subject to discrimination have no reality and so imagine that Nirvana must consist in the annihilation of the senses and their fields of sensation; they do not appreciate that birth-and-death and Nirvana are not separate one from the other. They do not know that Nirvana is Universal Mind in its purity. Therefore, these stupid ones who cling to the notion that Nirvana is a world by itself that is outside what is seen by the mind, ignoring all the teachings of the Tathagatas concerning the external world, go on rolling themselves along the wheel of birth-and-death. But when they experience the "turning-about" in their deepest consciousness which will bring with it the perfect self-realisation of Noble Wisdom, then they will understand.

The true functioning of the mind is very subtle and difficult to be understood by young disciples, even masters with all their powers of right-knowledge and Samadhis often find it baffling. It is only the Tathagatas and the Bodhisattvas who are firmly established on the seventh stage who can fully understand its workings. Those earnest disciples and masters who wish to fully understand all the aspects of the different stages of Bodhisattvahood by the aid of their right-knowledge must do so by becoming thoroughly convinced that objects of discrimination are only seen to be so by the mind and, thus, by keeping themselves

away from all discriminations and false reasonings which are also of the mind itself, by ever seeking to see things truly (yathabhutam), and by planting roots of goodness in Buddha-lands that know no limits made by differentiations.

To do all this the Bodhisattva should keep himself away from all turmoil, social excitements and sleepiness; let him keep away from the treatises and writings of worldly philosophers, and from the ritual and ceremonies of professional priestcraft. Let him retire to a secluded place in the forest and there devote himself to the practise of the various spiritual disciplines, because it is only by so doing that he will become capable of attaining in this world of multiplicities a true insight into the workings of Universal Mind in its Essence. There surrounded by his good friends the Buddhas, earnest disciples will become capable of understanding the significance of the mind-system and its place as a mediating agent between the external world and Universal Mind and he will become capable of crossing the ocean of birth-and-death which rises from ignorance, desire and deed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Magic_Man

02-20-2007, 09:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The reason (or one of the reasons) atheists don't want the God of the Bible to exist is because they are sickened by all the killing and violence. Of COURSE they prefer another imaginary God to exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the support.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for COMPLETELY ignoring the question. Here is your choice:

A) The God of the Bible, in all his completeness, exists. He has slaughtered innocents, made arbitrary complicated demands of worship, thanked people for offering their daughters to be raped, and more. HOWEVER, he has also done many good things - healed the sick, given people hope, etc.

B) Another imaginary God exists. This one is all-benevolent. He has NEVER ONCE harmed an innocent, and instead of "hardening the hearts" of the violent, he softens their hearts and helps them to right their ways. He ROUTINELY appears to the people of the earth to make his presence known in NON-CRYPTIC, COMPLETELY UNAMBIGUOUS ways, and thus puts an immediate end to many religious wars.

You said:
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that all atheists don't want the God of the Bible to exist. They may well want the God who is a figment of their imagination to exist. If you're an exception and really want Him to exist He will guide you into the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said:
[ QUOTE ]
How could you possibly want the God of the Bible to exist in FAVOR of other Gods?? The God of the Bible commits mass slaughter of innocents. Wouldn't you prefer an all-loving God??

[/ QUOTE ]

Which one do YOU WANT to exist? What's wrong with wanting option B?

NotReady

02-21-2007, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Which one do YOU THINK exists?

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

C) none of the above

Magic_Man

02-21-2007, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Which one do YOU THINK exists?

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

C) none of the above

[/ QUOTE ]

You claimed that atheists want a different God to exist than the God of the Bible. You are still dodging the question, and I will soon be forced to accept that it is because you agree that it is patently ridiculous to choose option (A) over (B) or AN INFINITY of other imaginary gods that are superior to option (A). Make your pick, A or B? I'll even give you a super simple choice:

A) The God of the Bible, in all his glory.
B) The God of the Bible, with every detail in exact agreement, EXCEPT he did not commit mass slaughter of the innocent first-borns in Egypt.

Which one do you prefer?

NotReady

02-22-2007, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Which one do you prefer?

[/ QUOTE ]

A) and B) are the same.

madnak

02-22-2007, 02:20 PM

He's right, Magic. God can't commit crimes - he's God! If God kidnapped person, kept them in an isolation tank for three months, cut out their guts while they were still alive, skinned them, and then killed them by slowly driving screws through both eyes, well that obviously wouldn't be torture. God doesn't commit torture!

tame_deuces

02-22-2007, 02:59 PM

Does this question have any meaning?

It's like asking:
You have to chose a new mother...and you can go for...

1. Your mother.
2. A much better and nicer person.

Understand that a religious person's relationship to god is not always clearcut and business-like and does not have to be, to make perfect sense.

I'm an atheist and have no problem with accepting that, as atheists we see things with a different perspective.

Magic_Man

02-22-2007, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does this question have any meaning?

It's like asking:
You have to chose a new mother...and you can go for...

1. Your mother.
2. A much better and nicer person.

Understand that a religious person's relationship to god is not always clearcut and business-like and does not have to be, to make perfect sense.

I'm an atheist and have no problem with accepting that, as atheists we see things with a different perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It's like asking this:
You have a mother who smokes 4 packs a day. You have to choose a new mother, and you can go for:

1) Your mother
2) An identical clone of your mother, except that she does not smoke.

Any reasonable person would choose (2).

Magic_Man

02-22-2007, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Which one do you prefer?

[/ QUOTE ]

A) and B) are the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying god did not murder people in Exodus, or that they were not innocent? A) and B) are CLEARLY not the same. (A) contains an action by God, no matter how you interpret the REASONS for that action (perhaps you think they were not innocent and deserved to die). (B) is the IDENTICAL God, SANS that action. They cannot be the same. Claiming they are the same is preposterous, and I hope everyone sees that here.

tame_deuces

02-22-2007, 04:25 PM

And thus it becomes a matter of perspective at the question at hand, you're perspective differs from mine and hence we can't agree on there existing a logical answer.

You're asking a believer to chose between two versions of gods, one which does not comply with his beliefs and which does, and then stating that they are identical except for actions they commited/did not commit which makes one better than the other. It's abit illogical in itself, since they clearly can't be identical anymore.

If given (1) and (2), and statement A proves (1) is correct, which do you chose? That's the gist of your statements.

But the one you are asking probably disagrees with (A).

Magic_Man

02-22-2007, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And thus it becomes a matter of perspective at the question at hand, you're perspective differs from mine and hence we can't agree on there existing a logical answer.

You're asking a believer to chose between two versions of gods, one which does not comply with his beliefs and which does, and then stating that they are identical except for actions they commited/did not commit which makes one better than the other. It's abit illogical in itself, since they clearly can't be identical anymore.

If given (1) and (2), and statement A proves (1) is correct, which do you chose? That's the gist of your statements.

But the one you are asking probably disagrees with (A).

[/ QUOTE ]

This all started because NotReady claimed that he WANTED the God of the Bible to exist, in preference of other Gods. He also claimed that Atheists do not want God to exist. My claim is that the latter is not generally true, and we've had threads about it before. He thumbed his nose at preferring other "imaginary Gods", and I'm trying to show that it is ridiculous to NOT prefer other imaginare Gods. Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer.

tame_deuces

02-22-2007, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And thus it becomes a matter of perspective at the question at hand, you're perspective differs from mine and hence we can't agree on there existing a logical answer.

You're asking a believer to chose between two versions of gods, one which does not comply with his beliefs and which does, and then stating that they are identical except for actions they commited/did not commit which makes one better than the other. It's abit illogical in itself, since they clearly can't be identical anymore.

If given (1) and (2), and statement A proves (1) is correct, which do you chose? That's the gist of your statements.

But the one you are asking probably disagrees with (A).

[/ QUOTE ]

This all started because NotReady claimed that he WANTED the God of the Bible to exist, in preference of other Gods. He also claimed that Atheists do not want God to exist. My claim is that the latter is not generally true, and we've had threads about it before. He thumbed his nose at preferring other "imaginary Gods", and I'm trying to show that it is ridiculous to NOT prefer other imaginare Gods. Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah there you see how reading a thread in MSP too fast can lead one astray sometimes, I guess I had the wrong angle, sorry about that.

The old testament god is fairly different from the more forgiving god in the new testament though, so the christian god has a very different image from the more 'hebrew' god you refer too.

Being an atheist I can't say I have any great interest in god NOT existing though, that's a weird argument.

Well, I'll argue this no more, as I obviously jumped into a different argument than I thought it was. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

NotReady

02-22-2007, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Are you saying god did not murder people in Exodus, or that they were not innocent?

[/ QUOTE ]

God murders no one. Murder implies wrongdoing.

Magic_Man

02-22-2007, 05:45 PM

Oxford English Dictionary:

murder: To slaughter in a terrible manner, to massacre.

Exodus 11: 4-6:
Moses said, "Thus says the LORD, 'About midnight I am going out into the midst of Egypt, and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of the Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the millstones; all the firstborn of the cattle as well. Moreover, there shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again.

Regardless of any connotations you may associate to "murder," God directly caused the death of many hundreds of thousands of lives. Replace "murder" with "caused the death of" in the above posts if it makes you feel better.

NotReady

02-22-2007, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

God directly caused the death of many hundreds of thousands of lives.

[/ QUOTE ]

The death of every creature that has ever lived or ever will live is within the will of God.

stormstarter28

02-22-2007, 09:55 PM

"Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer."

Here is my take on that...for the record, I am a Christian, but I am not here to argue with all you nonbelievers, just to offer my perspective on this issue. I believe that in the times of the Old Testament, God was an angry God and that He was full of wrath. I also believe that God is completely just, and if He did kill all of these people, He had a justified reason in doing so. Just because we can't understand why He did this doesn't make it wrong...there are countless reasons He may have done this. (Example: being all knowing, perhaps He knew these people He killed would destroy the world, or something of the sort. I'm not saying this is the case, it's just an example of why God would do something that is justified but we can't understand.)
Back to the main point...I believe He used to be full of wrath, but He sent Jesus to die for our sins, and since this ultimate sacrifice has occurred, His wrath is subdued and He is now a God of mercy. I believe the world is much worse now than it was in the time of the Old Testament, and that if He were still a God of wrath, we would all have been destroyed by now. (Before some of you freak out and rip my post apart, keep in mind that I am relatively young, I am new to theological arguments, and I am trying to learn, so go easy on me.)

vhawk01

02-22-2007, 10:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer."

Here is my take on that...for the record, I am a Christian, but I am not here to argue with all you nonbelievers, just to offer my perspective on this issue. I believe that in the times of the Old Testament, God was an angry God and that He was full of wrath. I also believe that God is completely just, and if He did kill all of these people, He had a justified reason in doing so. Just because we can't understand why He did this doesn't make it wrong...there are countless reasons He may have done this. (Example: being all knowing, perhaps He knew these people He killed would destroy the world, or something of the sort. I'm not saying this is the case, it's just an example of why God would do something that is justified but we can't understand.)
Back to the main point...I believe He used to be full of wrath, but He sent Jesus to die for our sins, and since this ultimate sacrifice has occurred, His wrath is subdued and He is now a God of mercy. I believe the world is much worse now than it was in the time of the Old Testament, and that if He were still a God of wrath, we would all have been destroyed by now. (Before some of you freak out and rip my post apart, keep in mind that I am relatively young, I am new to theological arguments, and I am trying to learn, so go easy on me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

God can't be angry.

madnak

02-22-2007, 10:33 PM

vhawk01

02-22-2007, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer."

Here is my take on that...for the record, I am a Christian, but I am not here to argue with all you nonbelievers, just to offer my perspective on this issue. I believe that in the times of the Old Testament, God was an angry God and that He was full of wrath. I also believe that God is completely just, and if He did kill all of these people, He had a justified reason in doing so. Just because we can't understand why He did this doesn't make it wrong...there are countless reasons He may have done this. (Example: being all knowing, perhaps He knew these people He killed would destroy the world, or something of the sort. I'm not saying this is the case, it's just an example of why God would do something that is justified but we can't understand.)
Back to the main point...I believe He used to be full of wrath, but He sent Jesus to die for our sins, and since this ultimate sacrifice has occurred, His wrath is subdued and He is now a God of mercy. I believe the world is much worse now than it was in the time of the Old Testament, and that if He were still a God of wrath, we would all have been destroyed by now. (Before some of you freak out and rip my post apart, keep in mind that I am relatively young, I am new to theological arguments, and I am trying to learn, so go easy on me.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I say... 70% probability you'll be an atheist someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

His ending parenthetical alone puts it at 50%. Throw in the 'posting style at the exact opposite end of the spectrum from SitNHit' and I'd be willing to give you 7:3 on it.

stormstarter28

02-22-2007, 11:11 PM

I've read SitNHit's posts before, and just because he is close minded on the issues and I am not doesn't mean I will become atheist. I am trying to learn specifically to strengthen my faith, not to go against it. I am very dedicated to following Christ and have no doubt in my mind that I will follow him until the day I die...I respect your opinions on the matter, but I think if you really knew me you wouldn't be saying these things. I think I am rare in that I am a very skeptical, rational, and logical person, yet I still have strong faith in God. I want to learn what nonbelievers and other religions believe so I can understand my own faith even more.

vhawk01

02-22-2007, 11:43 PM

loose passive

02-22-2007, 11:48 PM

http://www.thetalentshow.org/images/godhates.jpg

stormstarter28

02-23-2007, 12:08 AM

This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

flipdeadshot22

02-23-2007, 12:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bible is factually wrong in many places. And as far as proving that god doesn't exist...do we really need to go down this path every post?

vhawk01

02-23-2007, 12:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you base that belief on? Something made ME stop believing, so we have precedent. If you promised to never use the phrases "Well, thats just what I believe, and thats that" and "You have to have faith, I can't explain it" I am fairly sure that we could 'convert' you in a matter of months. But we all know that would be a promise you couldn't keep.

stormstarter28

02-23-2007, 12:41 AM

I base my belief on a number of things. 1)I cannot fathom this world being an accident. 2)I have heard many testimonies of faith in God and Jesus changing people's lives in a positive way (ex: my friend's parents both had cancer, were both Christians who prayed for healing, and were miraculously healed) 3)Since I have become a Christ follower, I have seen positive changes in my life that weren't there before, and wouldn't be without God (yes, I know I have no PROOF that God made the changes, but I don't need proof to believe it). There are many more reasons, but you get the idea.

Vhawk, what made you stop believing?

vhawk01

02-23-2007, 12:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I base my belief on a number of things. 1)I cannot fathom this world being an accident. 2)I have heard many testimonies of faith in God and Jesus changing people's lives in a positive way (ex: my friend's parents both had cancer, were both Christians who prayed for healing, and were miraculously healed) 3)Since I have become a Christ follower, I have seen positive changes in my life that weren't there before, and wouldn't be without God (yes, I know I have no PROOF that God made the changes, but I don't need proof to believe it). There are many more reasons, but you get the idea.

Vhawk, what made you stop believing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reason. Specifically, a few core concepts, those being burden of proof, parsimony, and falsifiability.

PLOlover

02-23-2007, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. It's like asking this:
You have a mother who smokes 4 packs a day. You have to choose a new mother, and you can go for:

1) Your mother
2) An identical clone of your mother, except that she does not smoke.

Any reasonable person would choose (2).

[/ QUOTE ]

I would choose 1. Having watched twilight zone/outer limts I recognize the danger of 2. type scenarios.

Mickey Brausch

02-23-2007, 03:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that in the times of the Old Testament, God was an angry God and that He was full of wrath. I also believe that God is completely just, and if He did kill all of these people, He had a justified reason in doing so. (Example: being all knowing, perhaps He knew these people He killed would destroy the world, or something of the sort. I'm not saying this is the case, it's just an example of why God would do something that is justified but we can't understand.)

[/ QUOTE ]But if He knew they would destroy the world, why would He allow them to be born in the first place? Since God takes such an exception to people bent on destroying His world, He could have arranged things so that they would not even get born.

I can think of no explanation that would justify the killing of babies by God, except for one: That God is, as I said numerous times already, the supreme sadist.

Mickey Brausch

Mickey Brausch

02-23-2007, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
NotReady claimed that he WANTED the God of the Bible to exist, in preference of other Gods. He also claimed that Atheists do not want God to exist. My claim is that the latter is not generally true, and we've had threads about it before. He thumbed his nose at preferring other "imaginary Gods", and I'm trying to show that it is ridiculous to NOT prefer other imaginare Gods. Atheists shun the GOTB because (for one reason) he is a mass murderer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice that nothing that NotReady submits in defense of his faith would entice a reasonably intelligent non-believer to start believing.

stormstarter28

02-23-2007, 03:49 AM

"But if He knew they would destroy the world, why would He allow them to be born in the first place? Since God takes such an exception to people bent on destroying His world, He could have arranged things so that they would not even get born.

I can think of no explanation that would justify the killing of babies by God, except for one: That God is, as I said numerous times already, the supreme sadist."

Perhaps God allows the world to run its course, but intervenes when he chooses. What if the babies he killed get to go to heaven, but wouldn't have been born otherwise...isn't being created and going to heaven better than never being born and never existing?

vhawk01

02-23-2007, 03:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"But if He knew they would destroy the world, why would He allow them to be born in the first place? Since God takes such an exception to people bent on destroying His world, He could have arranged things so that they would not even get born.

I can think of no explanation that would justify the killing of babies by God, except for one: That God is, as I said numerous times already, the supreme sadist."

Perhaps God allows the world to run its course, but intervenes when he chooses. What if the babies he killed get to go to heaven, but wouldn't have been born otherwise...isn't being created and going to heaven better than never being born and never existing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thus the infinite number of babies born every day.

Mickey Brausch

02-23-2007, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What if the babies [God] killed get to go to heaven, but wouldn't have been born otherwise... Isn't being created and going to heaven better than never being born and never existing?

[/ QUOTE ]So He kills 'em off, and, through their deaths, He tortures the parents and the family for the rest of their lives.

If the parents were assured Heaven, one could argue that the parents are getting infinite time in bliss, which somehow beats seventy-whatever years of misery on Earth.

But the parents may become sinners later on! (Because of their grief even.) They are tortured NOW, and so lead miserable lives, and then they get Hell as well.

Only a supreme sadist would do things like this.

If, on the other hand, there is a supreme morality, beyond human understanding at work here, a divine morality which we cannot fathom, and according to which the killing of babies, the torture of parents, etc, is fully justified, then this is an impasse: How are are supposed to be judged on specific criteria X and then be told that the applicable criteria are Y?

We could be violating Y, without even knowing it. (I mean, if it's actually OK in God's value system to kill babies, I bet I'm a sinner already.)

You can see the myriad logical dead-ends your premises lead us into.

Mickey Brausch

madnak

02-23-2007, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've read SitNHit's posts before, and just because he is close minded on the issues and I am not doesn't mean I will become atheist. I am trying to learn specifically to strengthen my faith, not to go against it. I am very dedicated to following Christ and have no doubt in my mind that I will follow him until the day I die...I respect your opinions on the matter, but I think if you really knew me you wouldn't be saying these things. I think I am rare in that I am a very skeptical, rational, and logical person, yet I still have strong faith in God. I want to learn what nonbelievers and other religions believe so I can understand my own faith even more.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds a lot like the young me (but without the arrogance).

[ QUOTE ]
I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what led most of us to become atheists.

[ QUOTE ]
1)I cannot fathom this world being an accident.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is God the only alternative?

[ QUOTE ]
2)I have heard many testimonies of faith in God and Jesus changing people's lives in a positive way (ex: my friend's parents both had cancer, were both Christians who prayed for healing, and were miraculously healed)

[/ QUOTE ]

How much time do you spend around Christians? Do you spend an equal amount of time around Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Baha'i, etc? Many of them have similar accounts. Why do you choose only Christianity?

[ QUOTE ]
3)Since I have become a Christ follower, I have seen positive changes in my life that weren't there before, and wouldn't be without God (yes, I know I have no PROOF that God made the changes, but I don't need proof to believe it).

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you were responsible for the positive change in your own life. Maybe you made choices to be a more giving, compassionate person. Maybe you found a sense of meaning for yourself. Or maybe your connection with God is valid, but the very same God helps those of other religions. Look at the Buddhists and tell me their lives aren't enriched by their beliefs.

27offsuit

02-26-2007, 04:07 PM

bunny

02-26-2007, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not illogical - I think it's the only sensible position for you to adopt. (Many atheists say they would believe in God if offered cast-iron proof, yet dont believe that will ever happen).

Magic_Man

02-26-2007, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a good point, but I think I didn't make myself clear before. I'm not saying I refuse to accept anything that doesn't support my current beliefs...I meant that I am here to understand other people's perspectives. I didn't say I was "searching for evidence", but I didn't make myself clear. If something convinced me that God didn't exist, or that the Bible was wrong, I do not think I would ignore it. I just don't believe that will ever happen. If this is illogical, I will stop claiming to be logical.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not illogical - I think it's the only sensible position for you to adopt. (Many atheists say they would believe in God if offered cast-iron proof, yet dont believe that will ever happen).

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it is illogical is because you have no reason to believe in the first place. Actually, it is either illogical or inconsistent. To continue the ideas above:

Atheists say: "I have no reason to believe. I will believe if I see convincing proof."

(Reasonable) Theists say: "My position is just as logical as yours. I have no reason to disbelieve. I will stop believing if I see convincing proof."

But then Atheists say: "But that could apply to many imaginary ideas. You have no reason to disbelieve in unicorns, or invisible fire-breathing dragons. And yet you don't believe in those things. Why do you choose to believe in God but not the others?"

To which most Theists eventually reply: "I don't know. I simply feel it."

This is why the main idea is illogical/inconsistent from the start. Unless you believe in EVERYTHING for which there is no falsifiability, then choosing to believe in only God "until you see convincing proof otherwise" appears foolish.

bunny

02-26-2007, 06:36 PM

I meant it is logical to continue his belief. I agree with you it is illogical to believe for no reason, I disagree with you that personal experience is not a reason (and a rational one at that).

I believed in God because of personal experience - I couldnt find any explanation for my experiences other than God, despite considerable reflection and an emotional attachment to atheism. As long as your God-belief doesnt contradict other well-justified beliefs, it is rational to count subjective, personal experience as evidence. It is just weak evidence by its nature.

Magic_Man

02-26-2007, 06:44 PM

I posit that it is illogical to choose God as an explanation of particularly baffling personal experiences if you have not done so to that point. Try a bayesian approach:

P[(God did it) | (No current explanation)] = {P[(No current explanation) | (God did it)] * P[(God did it)]} / P[No current explanation]

Now, assume that you start as a non-believer, and decide to think everything through as rationally and logically as possible, avoiding the influence of the evangelists and believers around you. P[(God did it)] will be so infinitesimally small for such a person that it dominates all other terms. In fact, P[(No current explanation) | (God did it)] may be tiny as well.

Put another way, with no math: If you have found a rational, no-God-required explanation for every other problem you've encountered, then it is HIGHLY likely that you will find such an explanation again. God of the Gaps is a foolish argument.

bunny

02-26-2007, 06:55 PM

You misunderstand. I dont mean something baffling happened which I couldnt explain without God - that hasnt happened to me so far. What I mean is I felt a very real, genuine connection with another intelligent entity.

I spent several years ascribing all the obvious causes to it, but it eventually reached a point where I discovered I believed it was God. I never chose to believe in God (and in fact it annoyed me for quite some time as I had a certain emotional attachment to atheism, not to mention a hostile family to "confess my faith" to).

I dont understand people who talk about choosing beliefs - I cant choose what to believe, I have no control over when something becomes a belief. I can choose what evidence to look into, I can choose what to think about, but I cant just snap my fingers and say "OK, I deem this a belief".

My response ten years ago was to accept the fact that I believed in something with no objective evidence (though I had subjective evidence) and to test that belief in the only way I knew how - namely by considering whether it led to a logical contradiction, or whether it clashed with other better-justified beliefs. The "best" candidate I could find was the problem of evil. I never found a satisfactory solution to that - perhaps that contributed to my losing my faith or perhaps not. All I know is that I no longer find the God explanation as plausible as the self-delusion explanation.

EDIT: I still believe it is possible to be a rational theist, however rare it may be.