Musings on the concept of pride [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Dids

02-13-2007, 02:45 PM

This started when Guids made some post in OOT about being proud to be Scicilian.

Got me thinking.

I'm proud of my own personal accomplishments.

I'm proud of what father and grandfathers have done.

I'm proud that the WSU Cougars are having a good basketball season (I grew up in Pullman, but did not attend WSU).

I'm proud that the people I've hired are almost universially great employees and pretty sharp people.

I don't have much pride attached to things like my race, my state, my country.

I started this thought with the basic premise of "race pride is dumb, because what attachment do you have to people of your race beyond the obvious". Then I thought about those aspects where I do derrive pride from those trivial attachments.

I thinking "Why do these things matter to me. Why do I get some value out of these items, and not from others?".

Some of it is obvious, I care about what affects me directly and those things over which I had control.

Some of it is more distant. Specifically the sports example. Why the hell does what some team with whom my only interaction is as a fan, fill me with pride when they win? I haven't done anything to help them.

And if that's the case, and I can feel pride in something to which I'm only tangentially attached, why don't I feel similar in terms of racial identity or nationalism?

(racial identity is a trickier one for me, since I'm a total european mutt and don't really indentify as anything but "white")

So:

Beyond the obvious, what groups do you belong to, or associate yourself with that fill you with pride when they accomplish something?

Why?

PITTM

02-13-2007, 03:02 PM

Post deleted by [censored]

Shadowrun

02-13-2007, 03:05 PM

proud to be jewish

blutarski

02-13-2007, 03:09 PM

You're confusing race with culture, I think. There is no Sicilian race, but there is a Sicilian culture- a collection of values, traditions, etc. If Guids participates in those traditions, it's easy to see how he could have pride for them.

As for your question, I don't understand why people have such a connection to things like college teams when they didn't attend that school. Or why people in Europe fight fans of opposing soccer teams.

I'm a Redskins fan, but I'd never take a punch for them!

blackize

02-13-2007, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm a Redskins fan, but I'd never take a punch for them!

[/ QUOTE ]

BLASPHEMY! If you haven't taken a drunken swing at a Cowboys fan, you can't call yourself a Redskins fan.

miajag

02-13-2007, 03:28 PM

People just like to belong. It's the same reason fraternities, street gangs, etc. exist.

[censored]

02-13-2007, 03:36 PM

I'm interested why you (and others who feel the same) would take pride in the WSU basketball season but not in your country? Does this mean for example when WSU wins a game, you feel proud for being from Pullman but when America does something you consider good in the World (tsunami relief for example) you don't feel proud at all for for being from here. Seems really weird considering you have absolutely no involvement with the basketball team but are able to be involved in a small way through voting, paying taxes, donating, being a good citizen in , with your country

[censored]

02-13-2007, 03:40 PM

as for racial identity, I think its fine to be proud to be black, Hispanic, and even white so long as its limited to appreciating your ancestry and not being ashamed or feeling inferior to others based on race. which is really what the concept of black pride was about. When it goes from that to feeling superior to people based on race, which is where white pride (power) came from its a problem.

seems like a lot of people take something really simple and make it complicated.

'Chair

02-13-2007, 04:48 PM

I'm proud to be an atheist (and at times when convenient, GT Alum).

EDIT: forgot the why. atheists do not conform without at least some thinking for themselves. As for the other...I'm a fair weather fan who rarely watches/goes to games.

[censored] - I don't find it odd that dids finds pride in one non-tangible [sports team] and not the other [nationalism]. The older I get, the more things I learn that make me sad about the politics in most countries...and ESPECIALLY in the US. Its hard not to drudge up all bad memories of something that is so impacting on your life (like you said, taxes, prohibition, etc)...where as a basketball team could have 5 losing seasons and you could still love em for that one game back in '03 where they upset a top 10 team.

I think my point is that the gravity of the two example situations is what separates them...at least for me.

I do think that you are right on about the race pride.

guids

02-13-2007, 05:12 PM

I could give a [censored] less about sports, I view people who are proud of thier sports teams (and Im comming from St. Louis, wehre even male fans would blow Albert Pujols), as suckers. I guess its pretty much the same as the chicks who make sure to catch up on what Brad and Jennifer are up to everyday. I just cant understand getting all riled up over a bunch of people who dont pay my salary, and dont give a [censored] about me (this also may have to do with the business Im in too?). I love my culture though, my grandpa explained to me how hard he had it in Sicily, and how tough the people there are, plus I just think it has great food, drink, culture, etc. Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se how anyone couldnt be.

mmbt0ne

02-13-2007, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
atheists do not conform without at least some thinking for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on man. Are you kidding?

firstyearclay

02-13-2007, 05:30 PM

I don't necessarily care about religion.

I am not a HUGE sports fan anymore; although I follow the big four.

I do consider myself a pretty big New Jersey Devils fan because they stand for what is all good about sports. Good management, team players, sacrificing all to win, staying out of trouble outside of the rink.... When they accomplish something I feel pride in their success I guess.

I have pride in my horse stable I own. We are just a group of low level thoroughbred claimers who love the game and believe in the trainer that works for us. This led me to have pride in the whole "Barbaro" thing. This probably relates to my passion for horses, horse wagering, and being at the Preakness when he broke then though too.

just my 2 cents.

FYC

oneeye13

02-13-2007, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se how anyone couldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't we have concentration camps?

TheGrifter

02-13-2007, 05:39 PM

Pride is a function of ego, mathematically speaking.

It fulfills a psychological desire to aggrandize oneself by association.

I fail to see any non-psychological benefit derived from pride.

guids

02-13-2007, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se how anyone couldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't we have concentration camps?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is we? The USA isnt a particular person or persons.

TheGrifter

02-13-2007, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se(e) how anyone couldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to be "proud" of something you have to believe that is superior. Many people (myself included) understand that the United States is not the "greatest country in the world", despite what the spin doctors tell you.

Many of us (myself included) see it as a temporary, destructive force that will be dominant for a (historically speaking) very short period of time.

PITTM

02-13-2007, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se how anyone couldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

don't we have concentration camps?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who is we? The USA isnt a particular person or persons.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what are you proud of then? you arent ashamed of the bad things that large parts of the government do but you are proud of our country? i dont get it.

guids

02-13-2007, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se(e) how anyone couldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to be "proud" of something you have to believe that is superior. Many people (myself included) understand that the United States is not the "greatest country in the world", despite what the spin doctors tell you.

Many of us (myself included) see it as a temporary, destructive force that will be dominant for a (historically speaking) very short period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me sick to my stomach, actually it really makes me sad, because if the US isnt a domininant force for a very long time, it will be becuase of people like you undermining what those before us have accomplished. When you say spin doctors, you must mean my parents, and grandparents, and a lot of people's hero's, otherwise, dont ever [censored] talk down to me like that again. BTW, what country do you believe is the greatest country in the world?

gumpzilla

02-13-2007, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

This makes me sick to my stomach, actually it really makes me sad, because if the US isnt a domininant force for a very long time, it will be becuase of people like you undermining what those before us have accomplished.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plenty of other countries/empires have failed before. It seems more likely than not that the US will get there eventually, too.

Also, why does it matter if the US is the greatest country in the world or not? I'm being serious.

guids

02-13-2007, 05:57 PM

I know that at some point, just like everyone else, our country will fail to exist, I just really really hope its not from people who just like to be pseudo-euro socialists, undermining the US.

It doesnt really matter too much I guess if it is the greatest or not, I just have a really really bad hangup for people who love to bitch about the US, saying that we are evil, then go to starbucks, buys a 6$ coffee, as I view much of the neo-hippies and subversives as a bunch of hypocritical douche bags.

TheGrifter

02-13-2007, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im also very proud of the USA too, I dont se(e) how anyone couldnt be.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to be "proud" of something you have to believe that is superior. Many people (myself included) understand that the United States is not the "greatest country in the world", despite what the spin doctors tell you.

Many of us (myself included) see it as a temporary, destructive force that will be dominant for a (historically speaking) very short period of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me sick to my stomach, actually it really makes me sad, because if the US isnt a domininant force for a very long time, it will be becuase of people like you undermining what those before us have accomplished. When you say spin doctors, you must mean my parents, and grandparents, and a lot of people's hero's, otherwise, dont ever [censored] talk down to me like that again. BTW, what country do you believe is the greatest country in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, I meant your parents, grandparents, etc. or at least the people who brainwashed them.

What those before accomplished?

Genocide of an entire race? Slavery? Too far back for you? How about the transition to a fully corporate controlled state that uses the concept of globalization to turn the so called "third world" into our own private sweat shop? Ahhhh...progress.

The United States, nearly since it's inception, has been controlled by opportunists who have taken every advantage without regard for decency or the intentions this nation was founded on.

There is no "greatest country". Don't you get it? There are no good nations, only good people, and fewer all the time.

TheGrifter

02-13-2007, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know that at some point, just like everyone else, our country will fail to exist, I just really really hope its not from people who just like to be pseudo-euro socialists, undermining the US.

It doesnt really matter too much I guess if it is the greatest or not, I just have a really really bad hangup for people who love to bitch about the US, saying that we are evil, then go to starbucks, buys a 6$ coffee, as I view much of the neo-hippies and subversives as a bunch of hypocritical douche bags.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't you just call me a pinko Mccarthy.

Edit to add: This all is a severe thread hijack so I'm not posting any more politics.

limon

02-13-2007, 06:02 PM

pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness. race, pro sports teams and your "home" country are things you should only be proud of if you're under the age of 9. college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned) GO DUCKS!

TheGrifter

02-13-2007, 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness. race, pro sports teams and your "home" country are things you should only be proud of if you're under the age of 9. college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned) GO DUCKS!

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, partially. While I still think pride derived from your own accomplishments is based in ego-puffing, at least it's not irrational.

guids

02-13-2007, 06:07 PM

Get off your high horse. How old are you? I have mucho respect for the real yippies, hippies, black panthers, yipls, taps, etc. I dont know your background, but 90% of the new generation of protesters, I am 100% right on. They are hypocritical, have no real ideals, and are just there to follow the pack mentality, there is a reason that most of these people I talk about are 20-something, it is because tehy think they know it all, and are easily lead around by the nose, when in reality, half the time they dont even know what they are protesting.

theBruiser500

02-13-2007, 06:11 PM

I am also conflicted on the subject of pride. With pride it's harder to learn and be open minded. Who else has mixed opinions on this oh so troublesome emotion? Quids do you remember in True Romance the scene about Scicily where Walker says Sicilians are great liars, and there are 17 pantomines to tell if someone is lying, one was "you're telling me everything and showing me nothing" - are there actually 17, what are they?

limon

02-13-2007, 06:12 PM

theBruiser500

02-13-2007, 06:12 PM

"college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned)"

limon is this a serious thought? the increased value is tiny in the big scheme.

guids

02-13-2007, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am also conflicted on the subject of pride. With pride it's harder to learn and be open minded. Who else has mixed opinions on this oh so troublesome emotion? Quids do you remember in True Romance the scene about Scicily where Walker says Sicilians are great liars, and there are 17 pantomines to tell if someone is lying, one was "you're telling me everything and showing me nothing" - are there actually 17, what are they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruiser,

You have traveled the world, done a lot of cool things, but still base your financial decisions on something you saw in a bank lobby, and your perception of a culture of people based on a movie. WTF, my friend?

ps I havent seen the movie.

guids

02-13-2007, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness. race, pro sports teams and your "home" country are things you should only be proud of if you're under the age of 9. college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned) GO DUCKS!

[/ QUOTE ]

pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness.

college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma

Unless you played a sport, then you are completely contradicting yourself, and calling yourself weak.

limon

02-13-2007, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned)"

limon is this a serious thought? the increased value is tiny in the big scheme.

[/ QUOTE ]

semi serious. i wouldnt defend it vehomently but tiny>0

Dids

02-13-2007, 06:26 PM

I think the big difference, for me, between say WSU Sports and America is that I spent 18 years of my life being socialized by the town in which I grew up, and that town cars about WSU sports. While I realize it's not rational, I have a shared history with people surrounding the team, and I've invested a ton of emtional energy into them.

(I'd argue that growing up in a college town probably creates a strong bond with the school than actually going there, college towns are [censored] weird about sports)

Wasn't the same way with the country. My father was a Conscientious Objector from Vietnam. A greast deal of the early history of my parent's marriage was driven by his very strong descire not to fight in a war in which he did not believe. My grandfather was at one point a member of the socialist party. I wasn't raised beliving that America was this awesome thing (nor was I raised that it wasn't really, beyond the obvious factors described above).

TheGrifter

02-13-2007, 06:26 PM

limon

02-13-2007, 06:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness. race, pro sports teams and your "home" country are things you should only be proud of if you're under the age of 9. college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned) GO DUCKS!

[/ QUOTE ]

pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness.

college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma

Unless you played a sport, then you are completely contradicting yourself, and calling yourself weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh....the reading comprehension on this site is abysmal. its not being proud of the direct accomplishments of the sportsteam its being proud of your diploma and the prestige of the university you EARNED it at. if a duck wins a nobel peaace prize i have a right to be happy/proud because in a tiny way it validates and increases the value of my personal accomplishment. also the oregon sports program is dependent upon alumni like myself being successful and donating so i take part in their accomplishments.

limon

02-13-2007, 06:31 PM

guids

02-13-2007, 06:33 PM

I think this describes why I feel the way I do about the US. I had one gramps that came over in total poverty, hustled his ass off when he came over, and becaue he was in the US, he became very succseful, he instilled in me what kind of oppurtunities living in the US alone affords me. My other grandpa, whom Im much closer with, was a WW2 hero, was charged w/ blowing up concentration camps (sadly, he has pictures of piles of bodies, its the most amazing and sick thing Ive ever seen), he has 2 masters degrees, one in pharmacology (I forget the other), was a pharmacist in beverely hills after war, and met tons of the stars back then. The way he speaks about the US, and the accomplishments he has made makes me puke when I think about how little Ive done, and makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US.

guids

02-13-2007, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness. race, pro sports teams and your "home" country are things you should only be proud of if you're under the age of 9. college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned) GO DUCKS!

[/ QUOTE ]

pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness.

college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma

Unless you played a sport, then you are completely contradicting yourself, and calling yourself weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh....the reading comprehension on this site is abysmal. its not being proud of the direct accomplishments of the sportsteam its being proud of your diploma and the prestige of the university you EARNED it at. if a duck wins a nobel peaace prize i have a right to be happy/proud because in a tiny way it validates and increases the value of my personal accomplishment. also the oregon sports program is dependent upon alumni like myself being successful and donating so i take part in their accomplishments.

[/ QUOTE ]`

No your logic is abysmal. You are proud of the abritary and unearned pumped up prestige of your diploma, stemming from a sporting event that you had absolutely nothing to do with. Ie, if your diploma is worth X, and because the ducks win a natl championship, it makes your diploma worth 1.5 * X, you have no right to be proud of that extra .5, by your logic. the nobel prize thing is different, as sports are are so arbirtary, where as the nobel prize is not. if you are an alum, that had a hand in contributing directly, than ok, I can see that.

limon

02-13-2007, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this describes why I feel the way I do about the US. I had one gramps that came over in total poverty, hustled his ass off when he came over, and becaue he was in the US, he became very succseful, he instilled in me what kind of oppurtunities living in the US alone affords me. My other grandpa, whom Im much closer with, was a WW2 hero, was charged w/ blowing up concentration camps (sadly, he has pictures of piles of bodies, its the most amazing and sick thing Ive ever seen), he has 2 masters degrees, one in pharmacology (I forget the other), was a pharmacist in beverely hills after war, and met tons of the stars back then. The way he speaks about the US, and the accomplishments he has made makes me puke when I think about how little Ive done, and makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

being proud of the usa is totally acceptable (unless you dont vote or pay taxes). you absolutely choose to be here and are responsible for the countries accomplishments in some way. unlike being some race where you had no choice and contribute nothing to any accomplishment of another of that same race just by existing.

'Chair

02-13-2007, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
atheists do not conform without at least some thinking for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on man. Are you kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

t0ne - sorry, not kidding...I know its a generalization, but it is a characteristic posessed by most who would be considered atheists (whether they considered themselves athiests or not is another topic).

guids - you seem a little nieve about the greatness of the USA...

kutuz_off

02-13-2007, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US

[/ QUOTE ]

guids,

There's good kind of pride/patriotism, "We are the best and I'll contribute to us staying the best". Then there's bad kind of pride, "You all suck, and I'll make sure you stay down". When people question the attitude of the extreme jingoistic americans, it's not (mostly) because they believe that America is teh evil, but because there are flaws in America that they want gone, and jingoism does not allow to even raise the issues. When you say what you said above, you're not contributing to America's greatness.

[censored]

02-13-2007, 06:41 PM

I guess I see accomplishment as being a necessary component of true pride.

When the Oregon State Beavers won the College World Series (eat it limon /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) I guess I felt proud of them because I was an alumni but I can't really say I took any pride in their win because I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

gumpzilla

02-13-2007, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

being proud of the usa is totally acceptable (unless you dont vote or pay taxes). you absolutely choose to be here and are responsible for the countries accomplishments in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What fraction of the US do you think is in a position to make being in the US an active choice (not that many of them would necessarily care to choose otherwise)? I'd been under the impression that immigration to similarly industrialized countries was pretty difficult.

limon

02-13-2007, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness. race, pro sports teams and your "home" country are things you should only be proud of if you're under the age of 9. college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma (which you earned) GO DUCKS!

[/ QUOTE ]

pride in something you did not accomplish is a sign of weakness.

college sports are different IF YOU ATTENDED THE UNIVERSITY because the success of the athletic program often increases the value of your diploma

Unless you played a sport, then you are completely contradicting yourself, and calling yourself weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh....the reading comprehension on this site is abysmal. its not being proud of the direct accomplishments of the sportsteam its being proud of your diploma and the prestige of the university you EARNED it at. if a duck wins a nobel peaace prize i have a right to be happy/proud because in a tiny way it validates and increases the value of my personal accomplishment. also the oregon sports program is dependent upon alumni like myself being successful and donating so i take part in their accomplishments.

[/ QUOTE ]`

No your logic is abysmal. You are proud of the abritary and unearned pumped up prestige of your diploma, stemming from a sporting event that you had absolutely nothing to do with. Ie, if your diploma is worth X, and because the ducks win a natl championship, it makes your diploma worth 1.5 * X, you have no right to be proud of that extra .5, by your logic. the nobel prize thing is different, as sports are are so arbirtary, where as the nobel prize is not. if you are an alum, that had a hand in contributing directly, than ok, I can see that.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats not true. universities depend on the success of their alumni as donors and advertisement. in a small way my success feeds the university and the universities success feeds me. we have a stake in each others accomplishments and should be proud as such.

guids

02-13-2007, 06:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US

[/ QUOTE ]

guids,

There's good kind of pride/patriotism, "We are the best and I'll contribute to us staying the best". Then there's bad kind of pride, "You all suck, and I'll make sure you stay down". When people question the attitude of the extreme jingoistic americans, it's not (mostly) because they believe that America is teh evil, but because there are flaws in America that they want gone, and jingoism does not allow to even raise the issues. When you say what you said above, you're not contributing to America's greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with people saying that there are problems with the US, I know there are, but there are a lot of people who believe that everyone here is inherently evil, those types I have the problem with.

limon

02-13-2007, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

being proud of the usa is totally acceptable (unless you dont vote or pay taxes). you absolutely choose to be here and are responsible for the countries accomplishments in some way.

[/ QUOTE ]

What fraction of the US do you think is in a position to make being in the US an active choice (not that many of them would necessarily care to choose otherwise)? I'd been under the impression that immigration to similarly industrialized countries was pretty difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

if a dude w/ a jug of water and 5 pesos can get in. im sure any able bodied us citizen could get out.

guids

02-13-2007, 06:47 PM

True, but that is not what you originally said. You completely changed the argument.

I dont care how naive I sound about the US, I wouldnt want to live anyhwere else.

kutuz_off

02-13-2007, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US

[/ QUOTE ]

guids,

There's good kind of pride/patriotism, "We are the best and I'll contribute to us staying the best". Then there's bad kind of pride, "You all suck, and I'll make sure you stay down". When people question the attitude of the extreme jingoistic americans, it's not (mostly) because they believe that America is teh evil, but because there are flaws in America that they want gone, and jingoism does not allow to even raise the issues. When you say what you said above, you're not contributing to America's greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with people saying that there are problems with the US, I know there are, but there are a lot of people who believe that everyone here is inherently evil, those types I have the problem with.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm saying is that poking an eye out of anyone who disparages America is no more constructive than thinking that everyone here is evil. That is, your position is the same as theirs, only with the opposite sign. Neither helps making America (or world) better. That's not something to be proud of.

bernie

02-13-2007, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Beyond the obvious, what groups do you belong to, or associate yourself with that fill you with pride when they accomplish something?

Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

2+2 forum.

Obvious reasons.

b

maryfield48

02-13-2007, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No your logic is abysmal. You are proud of the abritary and unearned pumped up prestige of your diploma, stemming from a sporting event that you had absolutely nothing to do with. Ie, if your diploma is worth X, and because the ducks win a natl championship, it makes your diploma worth 1.5 * X, you have no right to be proud of that extra .5, by your logic. the nobel prize thing is different, as sports are are so arbirtary, where as the nobel prize is not. if you are an alum, that had a hand in contributing directly, than ok, I can see that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would expect that sports is less 'arbitrary' than the nobel prize.

Golden_Rhino

02-13-2007, 07:06 PM

I'm proud that I come from generations of working class people that scratched and clawed for everything they have.

theBruiser500

02-13-2007, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am also conflicted on the subject of pride. With pride it's harder to learn and be open minded. Who else has mixed opinions on this oh so troublesome emotion? Quids do you remember in True Romance the scene about Scicily where Walker says Sicilians are great liars, and there are 17 pantomines to tell if someone is lying, one was "you're telling me everything and showing me nothing" -
are there actually 17, what are they?

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Bruiser,

You have traveled the world, done a lot of cool things, but still base your financial decisions on something you saw in a bank lobby, and your perception of a culture of people based on a movie. WTF, my friend?

ps I havent seen the movie.

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most people, people who have known me for a while tell me they can't tell when i'm being serious or joking. that always takes me surprise, but i advice you to not take me too seirously

theBruiser500

02-13-2007, 07:37 PM

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I think this describes why I feel the way I do about the US. I had one gramps that came over in total poverty, hustled his ass off when he came over, and becaue he was in the US, he became very succseful, he instilled in me what kind of oppurtunities living in the US alone affords me. My other grandpa, whom Im much closer with, was a WW2 hero, was charged w/ blowing up concentration camps (sadly, he has pictures of piles of bodies, its the most amazing and sick thing Ive ever seen), he has 2 masters degrees, one in pharmacology (I forget the other), was a pharmacist in beverely hills after war, and met tons of the stars back then. The way he speaks about the US, and the accomplishments he has made makes me puke when I think about how little Ive done, and makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US.

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quids i agree that the united states is a great country, it has problems but so does every country, it's one of the best places to live in the world. at the same time how does Pride help things? pride leads to complacency with things as they are, so it's harder to learn and get better, it also leads to stubborness. also to patriotism and war. in poker the peole who get to be the best and stay the best are the ones overly crtical of themselves (i.e. not prideful)

Howard Treesong

02-13-2007, 09:21 PM

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makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US

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There's good kind of pride/patriotism, "We are the best and I'll contribute to us staying the best". Then there's bad kind of pride, "You all suck, and I'll make sure you stay down". When people question the attitude of the extreme jingoistic americans, it's not (mostly) because they believe that America is teh evil, but because there are flaws in America that they want gone, and jingoism does not allow to even raise the issues. When you say what you said above, you're not contributing to America's greatness.

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Not all criticism of the criticizers is jingoism; in fact, some fair number of the criticizers are nut jobs who seem to want to criticize for the sake of it. There's an odd tension here: I'd give a great deal (like an arm) to protect the right of our people to burn the flag. At the same time, I'd likely spit on anyone who does.

blutarski

02-13-2007, 10:59 PM

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I know that at some point, just like everyone else, our country will fail to exist, I just really really hope its not from people who just like to be pseudo-euro socialists, undermining the US.

It doesnt really matter too much I guess if it is the greatest or not, I just have a really really bad hangup for people who love to bitch about the US, saying that we are evil, then go to starbucks, buys a 6$ coffee, as I view much of the neo-hippies and subversives as a bunch of hypocritical douche bags.

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Here we go...believe what I believe or you're the enemy. Never question, blind obedience=patriotism.

limon

02-13-2007, 11:33 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
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makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US

[/ QUOTE ]

There's good kind of pride/patriotism, "We are the best and I'll contribute to us staying the best". Then there's bad kind of pride, "You all suck, and I'll make sure you stay down". When people question the attitude of the extreme jingoistic americans, it's not (mostly) because they believe that America is teh evil, but because there are flaws in America that they want gone, and jingoism does not allow to even raise the issues. When you say what you said above, you're not contributing to America's greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all criticism of the criticizers is jingoism; in fact, some fair number of the criticizers are nut jobs who seem to want to criticize for the sake of it. There's an odd tension here: I'd give a great deal (like an arm) to protect the right of our people to burn the flag. At the same time, I'd likely spit on anyone who does.

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you cant spit on them, thats assault. try burning a copy of the koran in front of them, see how well that goes over.

Howard Treesong

02-13-2007, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US

[/ QUOTE ]

There's good kind of pride/patriotism, "We are the best and I'll contribute to us staying the best". Then there's bad kind of pride, "You all suck, and I'll make sure you stay down". When people question the attitude of the extreme jingoistic americans, it's not (mostly) because they believe that America is teh evil, but because there are flaws in America that they want gone, and jingoism does not allow to even raise the issues. When you say what you said above, you're not contributing to America's greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all criticism of the criticizers is jingoism; in fact, some fair number of the criticizers are nut jobs who seem to want to criticize for the sake of it. There's an odd tension here: I'd give a great deal (like an arm) to protect the right of our people to burn the flag. At the same time, I'd likely spit on anyone who does.

[/ QUOTE ]

you cant spit on them, thats assault. try burning a copy of the koran in front of them, see how well that goes over.

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I'm exaggerating for rhetorical effect, limon. I'd be highly unlikely to spit on anyone, except perhaps Gary Carson. Nit: it'd be a battery, not an assault. A battery is an offensive or unwanted touching; and assault is creating the apprehension of the same. And if the victim apprehends the actual batter, then it's both -- which is why they're often linked charges.

guids

02-14-2007, 01:23 AM

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[ QUOTE ]
I think this describes why I feel the way I do about the US. I had one gramps that came over in total poverty, hustled his ass off when he came over, and becaue he was in the US, he became very succseful, he instilled in me what kind of oppurtunities living in the US alone affords me. My other grandpa, whom Im much closer with, was a WW2 hero, was charged w/ blowing up concentration camps (sadly, he has pictures of piles of bodies, its the most amazing and sick thing Ive ever seen), he has 2 masters degrees, one in pharmacology (I forget the other), was a pharmacist in beverely hills after war, and met tons of the stars back then. The way he speaks about the US, and the accomplishments he has made makes me puke when I think about how little Ive done, and makes me want to poke an eye out when I hear someone disparage the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

quids i agree that the united states is a great country, it has problems but so does every country, it's one of the best places to live in the world. at the same time how does Pride help things? pride leads to complacency with things as they are, so it's harder to learn and get better, it also leads to stubborness. also to patriotism and war. in poker the peole who get to be the best and stay the best are the ones overly crtical of themselves (i.e. not prideful)

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Ah, see, I think thats where I differ, if I take pride in something the last thing I do is suffer complacency, I have long realized nothing is perfect, and whatever I take pride in, I do whatever i can to make it better, its an ongoing process to better things that I take pride in. Poker is a good example, I take pride in playing well, but I know I dont play to perfection, so I keep striving to reach as close to perfection as possible, if I had no pride in playing, I wouldnt even give a damn.

Anacardo

02-14-2007, 01:41 AM

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I'm a Redskins fan, but I'd never take a punch for them!

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BLASPHEMY! If you haven't taken a drunken swing at a Cowboys fan, you can't call yourself a Redskins fan.

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Let's rock and roll. I'll take a bottle of Patron and a Shiner for dessert; you can have whatever [censored] they drink in DC. Drunken brawl for rolls.

theBruiser500

02-14-2007, 01:41 AM

quids, i think you are right that when i reject pride i miss out on a lot, "if I had no pride in playing, I wouldnt even give a damn. "

Jack of Arcades

02-14-2007, 11:56 AM

I have pride in the foundation of this country, the great opportunity it's given so many people, including my ancestors, the rights given to us in the Constitution, and the people willing to fight for those rights.

I am shamed that every time we fight in the name of these rights, we begin to lose some of them. We did amazing things in World War II, but how much pride can I really have over freeing people from interment when we interred 75,000 US citizens simply because they were Japanese?

fish2plus2

02-14-2007, 01:23 PM

guids,

i had no idea you were part eggplant.

Colt McCoy

02-14-2007, 01:48 PM

I'm interested in people feeling pride for things they have had no part in. It's a really bizarre concept to me. Proud to be <insert race here>. Why are you proud of it. It's not like you had a choice. You didn't accomlish anything by being born the eay you are.

I also think people confuse "taking pride in something" and "being proud of someone" for their accomplishments. There's a tendency to use them interchangeably when they really aren't the same at all.

Dominic

02-14-2007, 02:38 PM

While I'm not proud of my race (how can you be???) I do enjoy my Italian heritage quite a lot.

I'm proud of things I've accomplished thru hard work, whether it be sports achievements or career/artistic ones.

I'm proud of having certain people as friends, because their friendship must say something good about me.

That's about it.

maryfield48

02-14-2007, 02:49 PM

It seems to me more than a little nitty to be saying that you should only be proud of things that you have 'had a part in'. When a Jamaican wins a gold medal at the Olympics, I feel proud, at least until the medal ceremony is over. It's really not much to do with me, but then again it springs from a sense of community - if a 2+2er wins a WSOP bracelet, or a family member gets a post-grad degree, or a friend gets a promotion, pride is the word for the emotion that we feel.

What else would you call it?

theBruiser500

02-14-2007, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me more than a little nitty to be saying that you should only be proud of things that you have 'had a part in'. When a Jamaican wins a gold medal at the Olympics, I feel proud, at least until the medal ceremony is over. It's really not much to do with me, but then again it springs from a sense of community - if a 2+2er wins a WSOP bracelet, or a family member gets a post-grad degree, or a friend gets a promotion, pride is the word for the emotion that we feel.

What else would you call it?

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envy?

PITTM

02-14-2007, 03:16 PM

so if i have a college degree and one of my friends gets one and i feel good for them i am envious that they have the same thing as me? i think this is pride.

also, sicilian pride worked out really well in the sicilian derby 2 weeks ago...

Colt McCoy

02-14-2007, 03:32 PM

guids

02-14-2007, 03:33 PM

I think there is a difference between pride, and being proud of something.

guids

02-14-2007, 03:36 PM

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guids,

i had no idea you were part eggplant.

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Ya, Im actually thinking of seeking reparations from everyone that has conquered Sicily over the last couple of centuries.

kidcolin

02-14-2007, 03:51 PM

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I think there is a difference between pride, and being proud of something.

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Something along these lines is correct. My vocab is pretty weak so I'm having a hard time come up with the right word.

The feeling I get when I shingle a house or whatever is one of pride, and different from any "pride" I feel about my New England heritage. Maybe "pride" and "proud" are used incorrectly in these cases.. I dunno. But I'm "proud" to come from New England (or more specifically, my small town in Mass). Maybe it's just a sense of community, but your environment is part of what shapes the person you are. It's not just your parents and your genes. For that, I am proud, or whatever better suited word there is for that feeling.

And I don't think that's a sign of weakness. Those sorts of feelings are what keep people invested in their community, which end up becoming cool towns or neighborhoods, which ends up fostering good people, who go on to do good things, and so on and so forth. It only becomes a weakness when one takes the "I'm from MA (or wherever), so I rule" stance. But that's obvious.

maryfield48

02-14-2007, 04:42 PM

So we may all agree, except for the semantics.

BPA234

02-14-2007, 04:49 PM

Uninvolved pride(not an actual participant e.g. not on the football team, not coaching the football team, not the one riding in the unarmored hummer) is a sign of weakness and an indicator of a narrow and limited world-view.

I do not understand people who are proud of anything they are not directly and actively producing. Uninvolved pride is the hallmark of the has-been, the could have done and the never-was.

In the same I way I believe in taking responsibility for my failures, mistakes and shortcomings, I believe in taking pride in myself, my actions, and my achievements.

I do not think pride should extend beyond personal manifestations.

Senor Choppy

02-14-2007, 04:52 PM

I have no true pride whatsoever, based on the idea of determinism.

If I overlook this, then I have pride for my own accomplishments and those of others than stem from my actions.

And then I have another kind of pseudo-pride based on the accomplishments of those around me, sports teams I cheer for (Go Cubs!), etc. It's fun, but it's essentially an act.

kidcolin

02-14-2007, 04:56 PM

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It's fun, but it's essentially an act.

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clearly a sign of weakness!

Anacardo

02-14-2007, 05:11 PM

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It's fun, but it's essentially an act.

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clearly a sign of weakness!

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Yes, weakness. We absolutely, positively can't have that. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Is it weakness to fear weakness, or being seen as weak? Is it strength to not fear weakness, or to be seen as weak?

I would imagine that true strength would manifest itself in never thinking about strength or weakness at all, unless one's attention were specifically called to the subject in some exceptional case!