0 = infinity

[morphball]

Are there any proofs for this statement?

[SBR]

I don't understand what you are asking. 0 is a number, infinity is a concept. How could there exist a proof that they are equal.

[tyrus72]

Huh?

[lightw1thoutheat]

none that will make sense.

[hmkpoker]

No.

[BrickTamlin]

The math skills of some on this forum seem a bit ,,, sketchy?

[morphball]

Zero is just a concept too, give one example of something that is truly zero. Absolute zero can not be achieved, second law of thermodynamics.

[Gobgogbog]

Here's something you could read way too much into philisophically. It's actually pretty much vacuous, but it might entertain a few people.

When you use Axiomatic Set Theory to build the natural numbers, rational, real, etc, you first have to have an axiom that the empty set exists. Another axiom is that, if a set S exists, then the set S' whose only member is S exists. Then there are some other axioms about how you can combine sets to get new sets. It can be proved that there is no biggest set: There is no set that contains all other sets. There is no biggest infinity.

Now, you could do it the other way. You could have an axiom that the set containing all sets exists. Then you can have an axiom that if a set S exists, and if it contains itself as an element, then the set S' exists that contains all the same members as S except for S itself. Then you make a few similarly mirrored axioms about how to get new sets from old sets, and you can finally prove that 0 doesn't exist.

So yeah, in that manner, 0 = the biggest infinity.

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
The math skills of some on this forum seem a bit ,,, sketchy?

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with this statement.

[BrickTamlin]

[ QUOTE ]
Zero is just a concept too, give one example of something that is truly zero. Absolute zero can not be achieved, second law of thermodynamics.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how are two unrelated concepts equal?

Prove that hungry equals not hungry (hey, they're both concepts!).

A valiant attempt to appear philosophical, but alas, you fail.

[Smock8]

someone could absolutely have 0 dollars, there is 0 percent chance that the impossible will happen.

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
So how are two unrelated concepts equal?

Prove that hungry equals not hungry (hey, they're both concepts!).

A valiant attempt to appear philosophical, but alas, you fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose trying to be philosophical? Why are they unrelated?

[morphball]

That's good one. On this site, I thought someone would say you can have zero percent chance of winning. When you get zero in these examples, it's only because you are limiting your variables. How many variables are in the Universe? Also, as to money, it is just a concept too.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Are there any proofs for this statement?

[/ QUOTE ]

(infinity)+(infinity)=(infinity)

Subtract infinity from both sides:

(infinity)+(infinity)-(infinity)=(infinity)-(infinity)

Cancel out:
(infinity)+0=0

Therefore:

(infinity)=0

OMG INFINITY = ZERO I AM SO SMART.

[BrickTamlin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how are two unrelated concepts equal?

Prove that hungry equals not hungry (hey, they're both concepts!).

A valiant attempt to appear philosophical, but alas, you fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose trying to be philosophical? Why are they unrelated?

[/ QUOTE ]


I found your proof.

0 = pi - pi

inf = inf*e

but e and pi are irrational, so we can just substitute anything we want for them

so inf = inf*e = inf*(pi)

but pi = 0 + pi

so inf = inf*(0 + pi) = inf*0 + pi*inf

but anything times 0 is 0 according to MattR's Theorem

so inf = 0 + pi*inf

so 0 = pi*inf - inf

but pi*inf - inf is approx. 2.14inf, which is still inf

so, 0 = inf

QED

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how are two unrelated concepts equal?

Prove that hungry equals not hungry (hey, they're both concepts!).

A valiant attempt to appear philosophical, but alas, you fail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose trying to be philosophical? Why are they unrelated?

[/ QUOTE ]


I found your proof.

0 = pi - pi

inf = inf*e

but e and pi are irrational, so we can just substitute anything we want for them

so inf = inf*e = inf*(pi)

but pi = 0 + pi

so inf = inf*(0 + pi) = inf*0 + pi*inf

but anything times 0 is 0 according to MattR's Theorem

so inf = 0 + pi*inf

so 0 = pi*inf - inf

but pi*inf - inf is approx. 2.14inf, which is still inf

so, 0 = inf

QED

[/ QUOTE ]

I beat you too it buddy.

[morphball]

then... 1/2 infinity = infinity?

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
then... 1/2 infinity = infinity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, why not, using my formula you could prove infinity = banana.

[morphball]

ha ha ... reminds me of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
That's good one. On this site, I thought someone would say you can have zero percent chance of winning. When you get zero in these examples, it's only because you are limiting your variables. How many variables are in the Universe? Also, as to money, it is just a concept too.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell are you talking about? Are you suggesting that 0 is not a number? Actually it doesn't matter, maybe you could explain what you were hoping to achive by starting this thread?

[Nut4Dawgs]

If 0 = nothing, and infinity = something unobtainable or indefinable, how can one be equal to the other?

[Nut4Dawgs]

My H.S. Physics teacher used a math formula to prove the basketball I threw into my closet never stopped bouncing. You and he could make a fortune in prop bets. Well, maybe you could. He's long gone by now.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
(infinity)-(infinity)= 0

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
pi*inf - inf is approx. 2.14inf

[/ QUOTE ]

That is wrong

[HotPants]

[ QUOTE ]
Zero is just a concept too, give one example of something that is truly zero. Absolute zero can not be achieved, second law of thermodynamics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, from our definitions and axioms it can be shown zero is number, and infinity is not

I don't know what you define as 'concept', so maybe zero is a concept as well as being a number, but it's a number either way

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(infinity)-(infinity)= 0

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Poepsnoet/orly.jpg

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell are you talking about? Are you suggesting that 0 is not a number? Actually it doesn't matter, maybe you could explain what you were hoping to achive by starting this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am not suggesting that zero is not a number, but it is in one sense. Numbers, as most people think of them, are concepts. When we say 1 + 1 is 2, this is a concept because in the real world, we can never have two things that exactly equal 1. We will just get close.

I know this seems crazy, but I have seriously been thinking about this for a long time. The purpose of this post was simply to find out if there have been any academic debates or proofs of this. I was hoping that people here, whom I consider to be very informed, for the most part, would know of anything.

I really wasn't trying to start some stupid debate, although I was bored last night and fired some arguments back to some responses. I have thought of a proof, and I was wondering if I was the first. Thanks!

P.S. - if there is anything out there on this, I would like to know, PM me if you want, make more fun of me to, if that's your pleasure, I can take it.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the hell are you talking about? Are you suggesting that 0 is not a number? Actually it doesn't matter, maybe you could explain what you were hoping to achive by starting this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I am not suggesting that zero is not a number, but it numbers in general are concepts. When we say 1 + 1 is 2, this is a concept because in the real world, we can never have two things that exactly equal 1. We will just get close.

I know this seems crazy, but I have seriously been thinking about this for a long time. The purpose of this post was simply to find out if there have been any academic debates or proofs of this. I was hoping that people here, whom I consider to be very informed, for the most part, would know of anything.

I really wasn't trying to start some stupid debate, although I was bored last night and fired some arguments back to some responses. I have thought of a proof, and I was wondering if I was the first. Thanks!

P.S. - if there is anything out there on this, I would like to know, PM me if you want, make more fun of me to, if that's your pleasure, I can take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There could be an argument made that any number DIVIDED by zero equals infinity.

[Gobgogbog]

[ QUOTE ]
Nah, from our definitions and axioms it can be shown zero is number, and infinity is not

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right that it's not tough to show that 0 is a number using only the axiom "0 is a number". Also, there are tons of infinite numbers.

[atrifix]

[ QUOTE ]
My H.S. Physics teacher used a math formula to prove the basketball I threw into my closet never stopped bouncing. You and he could make a fortune in prop bets. Well, maybe you could. He's long gone by now.

[/ QUOTE ]This must be wrong. The ball will stop bouncing eventually due to some energy being lost as heat due to friction (or by the 2nd law of thermodynamics).

[Nut4Dawgs]

[ QUOTE ]
This must be wrong. The ball will stop bouncing eventually due to some energy being lost as heat due to friction (or by the 2nd law of thermodynamics).

[/ QUOTE ]
You know that. Even I know something of it.

His math equation never reached zero. The rebound was an infinite number. That was one of my early experiences with those "Lessons of Life You Don't Learn in Kindergarten."

Figures do not lie, but liars sure do know how to figure.

[soon2bepro]

0 is no more of a concept or less real than 1, 2 or any other number.

[lightw1thoutheat]

[ QUOTE ]

There could be an argument made that any number DIVIDED by zero equals infinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

division is defined as the multiplicitave inverse. so if a/inf=0 this implies that 0*inf=a.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
give one example of something that is truly zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are zero apples in my hand. I have died zero times in my life. I own zero midget slave laborers. Etc.

[tomdemaine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
give one example of something that is truly zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are zero apples in my hand. I have died zero times in my life. I own zero midget slave laborers. Etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's weird, I own infinity midget slave laborers.

[morphball]

[ QUOTE ]
There are zero apples in my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you have never eaten an apple and everything you have eaten never ate an apple.

[ QUOTE ]
I have died zero times in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true, your body is composed of nearly (or more than) a trillion cells. They are dying everyday. As to your consciousness, it changes from day to day as well, so you can never be the person you were yesterday.

[ QUOTE ]
I own zero midget slave laborers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should really get some. They work hard, do not try to escape and are easy to maintain.

To your point, cool something down to zero degrees. Find me a volume of space that has zero mass. It's very easy to identify <u>one</u> variable and say "gee, I don't have any of that." But what you can't do, and what no one can do, is say there is absolutely nothing in my hand.

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this seems crazy, but I have seriously been thinking about this for a long time. The purpose of this post was simply to find out if there have been any academic debates or proofs of this. I was hoping that people here, whom I consider to be very informed, for the most part, would know of anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right it does seem crazy. I'm not trying to make "fun" of you or anything stupid like that. I'm seriously confused as to how anyone could think they are equal or even comparable. The fact that you have put serious thought into this is fairly disconcerting. I will save you some time, there are not any valid proofs. There has never been any serious discussion about this and I very much doubt there ever will be.

I do respect that you, apparently, have some interest in mathematics and I hope you pursue this interest in the future. However I also hope that in the future you do a little research on your own before trying to engage discussion about a topic. Both wiki and mathworld are reasonable starting points.

[Bork]

[ QUOTE ]
To your point, cool something down to zero degrees. Find me a volume of space that has zero mass. It's very easy to identify one variable and say "gee, I don't have any of that." But what you can't do, and what no one can do, is say there is absolutely nothing in my hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are pointing out a case in which you claim that your hand cannot be empty. Even if this claim is true it does not show that zero is not exemplified in nature. Further your case is wrong. I think its possible to have a hand that holds nothing. It would perhaps be physically problematic to remove all the stuff but it could be done. Also we don't need to relate this 'nothing' or zero space to a hand. We just need a tiny speck of pure space.

[ QUOTE ]
Not true, your body is composed of nearly (or more than) a trillion cells. They are dying everyday.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some cells that compose you dying is not the same as you dying.

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are zero apples in my hand.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only if you have never eaten an apple and everything you have eaten never ate an apple.

[/ QUOTE ]

No there are no apples currently in his hand. Further a speck of former apple material does not equal an apple.



He gave indisputable cases of the concept zero being exemplified. Pointing out different more broad cases where the statement would not be true is irrelevant.




[ QUOTE ]
No, I am not suggesting that zero is not a number, but it is in one sense. Numbers, as most people think of them, are concepts. When we say 1 + 1 is 2, this is a concept because in the real world, we can never have two things that exactly equal 1. We will just get close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Infinity and zero are both concepts, but only zero is a number as well. For two concepts to be equal (identical) they must be the very some concept. So, since zero is both a number and a concept while infinity is a mere concept they are not the same concept, hence they are not equivalent.

[BrickTamlin]

[ QUOTE ]
Numbers, as most people think of them, are concepts. When we say 1 + 1 is 2, this is a concept because in the real world, we can never have two things that exactly equal 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, it should be very easy to prove 1+1=3. Once you complete this simple prrof, then worry about 0=inf.

[purnell]

[ QUOTE ]
0 is no more of a concept or less real than 1, 2 or any other number.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see you hold "two" in your hand, or put it in a box. All numbers are concepts- they exist only in our minds.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
division is defined as the multiplicitave inverse. so if a/inf=0 this implies that 0*inf=a.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then 1/inf is not 0. Honestly, why can't the math people on this forum be consistent?

[billygrippo]

[ QUOTE ]
Zero is just a concept too, give one example of something that is truly zero. Absolute zero can not be achieved, second law of thermodynamics.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are 0 hot naked girls in my room right now. oh wait theres 12. 4th law of super ballerism.

[oneeye13]

[ QUOTE ]
Zero is just a concept too, give one example of something that is truly zero.

[/ QUOTE ] The number of prizes you will win for this post.

[sirio11]

Well, I assumed your post was serious.

For those of you who care about the arithmetic properties of infinity

Properties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#Arithmetic_properties_of_infinity)

[Ben Young]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The math skills of some on this forum seem a bit ,,, sketchy?

[/ QUOTE ] I agree with this statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

look at your earlier response, you are confusing physics with mathematics. while physics is deeply rooted in math, just because you claim something isn't so in physics doesn't mean it isn't in math.

also, you are wrong, if you claim there are no examples of 0 in physics. here is one for you: the sum of all forces in a closed system is 0.

I think you need to make the question from your OP much more specific.

[Carl_William]

better way to express that is -- the ability to think is not to sharp.....

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I assumed your post was serious.

For those of you who care about the arithmetic properties of infinity

Properties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#Arithmetic_properties_of_infinity)

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent! Very, very nice. Thanks. I should have thought of that.

[threeonefour]

just thought i'd give the worst thread i have ever read on 2+2 a bump.

(btw zero is a number and a real one at that, no it does not equal infinity)

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
division is defined as the multiplicitave inverse. so if a/inf=0 this implies that 0*inf=a.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then 1/inf is not 0. Honestly, why can't the math people on this forum be consistent?

[/ QUOTE ]

true. i think he might have meant the limit of 1/x as x goes to infinity is 0

[threeonefour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(infinity)-(infinity)= 0

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Poepsnoet/orly.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

yes really.

ie the set of real numbers (uncountably infinite) minus the set of rational numbers (countably infinite and a subset of the reals) is the irrational numbers (uncountably infinite and not equal to zero)

[Marko Schmarko]

[ QUOTE ]
ie the set of real numbers (uncountably infinite) minus the set of rational numbers (countably infinite and a subset of the reals) is the irrational numbers (uncountably infinite and not equal to zero)

[/ QUOTE ]
lol.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ie the set of real numbers (uncountably infinite) minus the set of rational numbers (countably infinite and a subset of the reals) is the irrational numbers (uncountably infinite and not equal to zero)

[/ QUOTE ]
lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

lolling at correct statements makes you look like an idiot.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
division is defined as the multiplicitave inverse. so if a/inf=0 this implies that 0*inf=a.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then 1/inf is not 0. Honestly, why can't the math people on this forum be consistent?

[/ QUOTE ]

true. i think he might have meant the limit of 1/x as x goes to infinity is 0

[/ QUOTE ]

actually 1/inf does equal 0, but 0*inf is undefined.

In some ways 0 and infinity are closely tied, but they certainly aren't true inverses becasue 0*inf != 1

[Gobgogbog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ie the set of real numbers (uncountably infinite) minus the set of rational numbers (countably infinite and a subset of the reals) is the irrational numbers (uncountably infinite and not equal to zero)

[/ QUOTE ]
lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

lolling at correct statements makes you look like an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

OHSHI-

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I assumed your post was serious.

For those of you who care about the arithmetic properties of infinity

Properties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#Arithmetic_properties_of_infinity)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats actually interesting, how did they arrive at:

x/infinity=0? Would seem to me that x/infinity would have to be undefined much the same way x/0 is indefined. If you graphed the slope of x/y as y approached infinity, you would approach zero, but you would never actually get there much as the graph of x/y as y approaches zero approaches infinity. What is the difference between these two?

[Gobgogbog]

x/y as y goes to infinity gets closer and closer to 0. x/y as y goes to 0 doesn't get closer and closer to infinity, it just gets bigger and bigger. 2 isn't closer to infinity than 1 is.

This isn't how they arrive at it, but it's an intuitive explanation.

[Matt R.]

[ QUOTE ]
it just gets bigger and bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same as saying it is approaching infinity.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it just gets bigger and bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same as saying it is approaching infinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i fail to see how as a variable increases, it doesn't approach infinity.

[Gobgogbog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it just gets bigger and bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the same as saying it is approaching infinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, i fail to see how as a variable increases, it doesn't approach infinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

How close is 1 to 0? It's 1 away. How close is 1/2 to 0? It's 1/2 away. The distance between 0 and 1/x gets smaller as x gets larger.

How close is 1 to infinity? It's infinity away. How close is 1/(1/2)=2 to infinity? It's infinity away. As x gets smaller, 1/x doesn't get any closer to infinity.

[Matt R.]

This is because zero is a real number, infinity is not. You can't get infinitely close to infinity, but you can get infinitely close to zero. Infinity doesn't work the same arithmetically as a real number.

Have you ever evaluated a limit in calculus? If you have a function that contains a vertical asymptote, say at x = 1, and the function increases as it approaches x = 1, the limit as f(x) approaches 1 is infinity. The slope of the function increases the closer you get to x = 1, thus it is getting bigger and bigger. Which is the same as saying it approaches infinity.

[Gobgogbog]

[ QUOTE ]
This is because zero is a real number, infinity is not. You can't get infinitely close to infinity, but you can get infinitely close to zero. Infinity doesn't work the same arithmetically as a real number.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, that's sort of what I'm illustrating. He wanted to know why 1/0 is undefined even though 1/inf is defined and is equal to 0. I was showing that they aren't analogous.

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever evaluated a limit in calculus?

[/ QUOTE ]

A few times, yes, I graduate with a major in math in approximately 3 months.

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a function that contains a vertical asymptote, say at x = 1, and the function increases as it approaches x = 1, the limit as f(x) approaches 1 is infinity. The slope of the function increases the closer you get to x = 1, thus it is getting bigger and bigger. Which is the same as saying it approaches infinity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a problem with the language. When we say something approaches a real number, it's very different than when we say something approaches infinity. The epsilon-delta definition of a limit being equal to a real number doesn't work for infinity. So it's not saying it approaches infinity in the same way a function might approach 0.

[Matt R.]

OK. I thought you were oversimplifying things with your earlier statement. I see now that it was a disagreement in the wording. I agree that the concept of a variable approaching infinity is different than a variable approaching a real number.

[RBO]

To infinity and beyond

[BrickTamlin]

[ QUOTE ]

division is defined as the multiplicitave inverse. so if a/inf=0 this implies that 0*inf=a.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong

[lightw1thoutheat]

woops, i should know.
i was thinking of the reasont that a/0 isnt infinity. i understand that you cant mult each side by infinity. my mistake

[The Truth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
give one example of something that is truly zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are zero apples in my hand. I have died zero times in my life. I own zero midget slave laborers. Etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's weird, I own infinity midget slave laborers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautiful. Thanks for that.

blake

[morphball]

Thanks, everyone. All in all, the posts here were quite helpful. I hope to get the proof ready for submission sometime soon. I showed it to a friend I trust once at a bar, and he couldn't find any flaws with it, but he refused to believe it. He had the same issues that I believe many of you have, and the implications of the proof to the definition our existence are profound.

One poster mentioned that the sum of forces in a closed system are equal to zero. He's getting close to something very very big there, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
(infinity)-(infinity)= 0

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW, jman was told this is incorrect. It is and it isn't...(using my proof that is..)

Yeah, I started this post just wanting to know if what i had thought of had been done, and I kind of thought it was because:

1) Everything I think of has already been done it seems; and

2) I skimmed through an article a couple years back about the universe being infintie but bounded in the middle. I kind of thought this person may have already done it.

I am a lawyer, and not up to date with math theory, so i just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something that hadn't already been done. Nonetheless, it did turn into something else, mostly because I started firing back philosophical arguments. I sometimes can't help myself... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks again, everyone. Someday, I will be vindicated or you will have more opportunities to deride me. Only time will tell.

I think we can let this thread die now, but if you have more interest, feel free to PM me and I will send you the proof once I get it submitted, but that could be a month or two or more away, I have a huge case going to trial, am moving in with my girlfriend and, I am addicted to poker!

[Gobgogbog]

The plot thickens.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
The plot thickens.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was my first ever LOL

[Bork]

Assuming you are telling the truth, where will you be submitting this proof?

[Mik1w]

[ QUOTE ]
Zero is just a concept too, give one example of something that is truly zero. Absolute zero can not be achieved, second law of thermodynamics.

[/ QUOTE ]That is temperature. We can easily define something to be zero. For example, at a time t=0 s, a particle is at the origin and moves with acceleration a. Here, both position and time are zero. We can't define something to be infinite.

Zero is an element of the set of real (or complex, more generally) numbers, and infinity is not. As the operations of multiplication and addition are only defined over the elements of this set, then to say anything equals infinity is nonsense. (division is defined over R/0)

edit- if you want to talk about 1/infinity and 1/0, or 0/0 you should use limits..