Think I found a MAJOR leak in my game

[phydaux]

I've been playing .01/.02 on Stars for about five months now. For the first three months I was a consistent winner. Recently, my game has takes a Greg Louganis-style dive into the red. After some reflection, I think I understand why.

When I first started playing .01/.02, the "recommended" buy-in, the default amount offered in the dialog box, was $2.00. Recently, a change in the s/w has Stars offering $3.00, not $2.00.

When I first noticed the change I thought to myself, "Well, I'm obviously one of the better players at this level. The only thing buying in for more will do is increase my potential upside."

Well, I had a rough December but I finished up for that month. January was my first loosing month since starting at .01/.02, and February isn't shaping up to be much better. After reflecting on my game, I think I understand why.

The objective of NL poker is to bust or double through your opponent. Get a good holding, raise pre-flop with position, flop a monster, and then scoot all your money in the middle. Double up, then do it again.

Now for this to work you have to have the best hand and your opponent has to be willing to go all the way with a second best hand. The problem in the micros is that these guys always see monsters under the bed. They release good but not great hands to big bets on the Flop or Turn, and they only go or call all-in with the immortal nuts. Also, "small pot" hands like TPTK and two pair come much more often than "big pot" hands like sets and full houses.

Consequently when I did win is was small pots, 20-30 cents. And of that 30 cents I put in half of it, so it's only a .15 net profit. But now, buying in for $3.00 instead of $2.00, when I get stacked I end up in a much bigger hole, one that is much harder to dig my way out of .15 at a time.

I'm thinking I should go back to a $2.00 buy-in.

Does this sound likely? Is this something you guys have heard/seen before?

[Smilin']

If you're losing more often than not when it all goes in, then maybe you'd be better off for now buying in for 100BB. BUT... if you're losing more often than not when it all goes in, maybe you need to change your game. I don't really know how .01/.02 plays, but you might want to avoid getting all in with a hand like TPTK or even an overpair. Usually my "default" for TPTK is to check one street and release it to significant aggression (adjusting for reads, of course).

NL doesn't need to be just about doubling through your opponent--small hand, small pot; big hand, big pot.

[barycentric]

You might want to read the shortstacking link in the uNL sticky. The maximum buy-in at $0.1/$0.2 is $5 right? Perhaps you can consider buying in for the full amount instead.

[CrazyEyez]

If you're losing $3 when you shouldn't, you're not playing good poker, and the amount of your buy-in isn't the problem. In the long run, buying in for the max is the most profitable. If you're uncomfortable with that, an alternative is Ed Miller's ultra-short-stack strategy.

Also,

[ QUOTE ]
The objective of NL poker is to bust or double through your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not necessarily a healthy way to approach the game. The object is to make the best decisions in each situation. Sometimes that means playing smalls pots, sometimes big pots.

You probably have some leaks, but the amount of your buy-in is likely not near the top of the list. Post hands that you aren't sure of. It's by far the quickest way to learn.

[phydaux]

Smilin',

Thanks for the advice, but I already learned not to go broke with TPTK. That's how I ended up at .01/.02 after my sting at .02/.05. I don't go broke with pocket jacks anymore.

Bary & Crazy,

You're giving me two different pieces of advice - buy in deeper or buy in shorter.

100BB isn't short, so I can still play my speculative hands like small pairs, suited connectors & suited aces. If I buy in shorter, then I have to stop playing them, and end up not learning how to play them.

It's also not so deep that, unbeknownst to most of them, I'm giving my opponents correct implied odds to call me down with anything.

And since I'm playing and winning small pots for the most part, I'm not loosing out on too much upside by buying in for 100BB instead of 150BB.

Also, "read the stickies" really isn't an answer. We all post and read the forum to learn. I'm posting my thought process. If I'm wrong, please tell me how. Someone else might have a similar misunderstanding and you might enlighten both of us.

[barryc83]

I didnt read much of this thread at all, but serious kudos for the greg louganis reference.

[Smilin']

So it still seems to me like there's probably a hole in your game if you lose the big pots more than you win them. I mean, in principle a LAGgy player could lose most of the big pots and make up for it on small ones, but that's probably a poor strategy at .01/.02. I don't know what that hole is, but in the longer run fixing it should be more profitable than buying in for $2.

Alternatively, do you have enough hands to know that it's not just variance (losing lots of 150BB pots)?

[Mal_Pais]

[ QUOTE ]
100BB isn't short, so I can still play my speculative hands like small pairs, suited connectors & suited aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

One leak to consider is if you're playing these types of hands OOP. Pairs OK (because they're easy to play), but SCs and suited Aces are hard to play OOP.

[JadeRedstone]

[ QUOTE ]
The objective of NL poker is to bust or double through your opponent. Get a good holding, raise pre-flop with position, flop a monster, and then scoot all your money in the middle. Double up, then do it again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not necessary true. Like stated the object is to make money. By making the right decisions most of the time you will make money in the long run. The above strategy is a Short Stack strategy game. If your BR is not big enough to play full stack, by all means use the above and play a near push / fold game. However that is not poker. If you want to learn poker learn to play post flop. Learn to value bet with good hand, learn information bets, learn to control pot size etc..
[ QUOTE ]

..The problem in the micros is that these guys always see monsters under the bed. They release good but not great hands to big bets on the Flop or Turn, and they only go or call all-in with the immortal nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Never heard that before. The usual problem in low levels are that player do not fold marginal hands. They usually DO call to the river with 2pNk. They usually DO chase draws with no odds. They usually DO call allin with crap. This is what frustrate a lot of decent players. You can not push micro levels players out of pots. They either call your hugh bets when you represent a hugh hand (big mistake to do in micro) or they chase a back door flush draw and bust your set.

You have to decide why you play poker. Do you want to learn the game? Then I suggest buy for the max (if your BR allow) and learn to play.
Its much harder but also much more fun then sitting and waiting for the nuts every hand (though in micro, you often have to play almost only the nuts)

Good luck

Danny

[corsakh]

I think one month can easily be variance.

[beecass]

[ QUOTE ]
The maximum buy-in at $0.1/$0.2 is $5 right?.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's playing 0.01/0.02 3$ is 150BB

And just out of curiousity, how much will you make in a winning month playing at these levels?

[Sir Winalot]

lol it's not because of a friggin buy-in size if it's over 100bb. It's because you probably suck at poker for the time being. Start posting hands like crazy and watch the istrong videos (listen carefully to what he says).

[ama0330]

Wow I'd love to play for 150bb are you serious

[phydaux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The maximum buy-in at $0.1/$0.2 is $5 right?.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's playing 0.01/0.02 3$ is 150BB

And just out of curiousity, how much will you make in a winning month playing at these levels?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the end of October, November and December I finished up $9.00-$12.00 each month. January I was down $6.00 for the month.

[Mal_Pais]

[ QUOTE ]

Not necessary true. Like stated the object is to make money. By making the right decisions most of the time you will make money in the long run.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Strategic planning 101. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Goal: Make money

Objective: Achieve a certain winrate (~2BB/100 - 30BB/100 /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Strategy: Play X amount of hands per month.

Monitor and evaluate.

Drop marginal hands in early position, raise those pocket pairs, and play aggressively in position. Big hand, big pot. Small hand, small pot. You are never wrong to get your money in with the best hand. Post hands that confuse you.

Good luck.

[SCBielski]

.01/.02 tables are really not the best place for someone trying to learn to better play poker. Have you ever considered depositing and moving up to .02/.05 or .05/.10?

[Slap My Jack]

Playing a certain number of hands is the better objective given that variance heavily influences your winrate. Winrate goals are basically the same as $ goals, and at micro you should be more concerned with learning to play your hands well than grinding out X amount of $.

[phydaux]

Belive me, I'm trying to play correctly. That's why I'm not buying on short. I don't want to play shove, I want to play poker. If I wanted to play shove, I'd play SnGs.

I was wondering if, since most of the pots I win are small pots, I was buying in too deep. Most of you seem to be saying that buying in for 150 BB isn't such a bad idea, so I'll keep buyin for 150.

I've downloaded several of those videos. My problem with them is most of them (ALL of them?) are for 6-max and I play FR.

[Vyse]

Just move to 10 NL and play 6 max :P

[corsakh]

Move to 6max.

[professormike]

[ QUOTE ]
lol it's not because of a friggin buy-in size if it's over 100bb. It's because you probably suck at poker for the time being. Start posting hands like crazy and watch the istrong videos (listen carefully to what he says).

[/ QUOTE ]

I started playing around Wednesday since my br was basically busto and am up ~$49 basically due to people stacking off with completely terrible hands and such. I would think that making $200 this month wont be impossible, I plan to start putting in some hands now so I can move up.

Edit: I buy in for the full stack.

[Archon_Wing]

Just buyin for $5 unless you have less than $50 or something; I doubt you don't have an edge in that game. Plus it might make you think twice about going allin.

[ben wb]

As I remember from here http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post9030561 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=microplnl&Number=9030561& Searchpage=1&Main=9030561&Words=phydaux&topic=&Sea rch=true#Post9030561) you only play around 2000 hands a month. I think you're probably just experiencing variance, it's very common to lose over 2 or 3,000 hands and it doesn't mean you're a losing player or that you've started doing anything wrong.

I would recommend buying in for the maximum $5 if you play this level, if you are better than your opponents then given time you will win far more big pots from them than you lose to them.

[ben wb]

Also then you can win 700BB pots like this one. Notice how much value I would've lost if I didn't buyin full.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($4.74)
SB ($3.36)
Hero ($5.89)
UTG ($4.81)
MP ($4.15)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.08) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $0.02</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.58</font>, MP calls $0.58, SB calls $0.56, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5.87</font>, UTG folds, MP calls $3.55 (All-In), SB calls $2.76 (All-In).

Turn: ($14) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: ($14) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $14

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Th Kd (straight, ace high).
MP has Ad 6c (two pair, aces and jacks).
SB has 3s Ks (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $14. </font>