($5NL- 6max) Turned boat, should I value check to...

[Desdia01]

induce a bluff on the river? No relevant reads as villains are new to table. I don't think I would be putting myself in too bad shape by checking and allowing somebody to catch up. Anybody with J8 or 8x would have showed up by now and I'm thinking draws.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($11.32)
SB ($5.97)
BB ($10.32)
UTG ($6.20)
MP ($5.27)
Hero ($7.01)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.05, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.05, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.20) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.1</font>, SB calls $0.10, BB folds, UTG calls $0.10.

Turn: ($0.50) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero?

[TheSalche]

bet it again, you want those diamond draws to pay the turn, cause you won't get anything from them if the river blanks ... plus you just stuck it in 9T's ass and they're not folding here.

[corsakh]

Value check? Thats a new concept /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bozzer]

PF. I'd normally raise but limping behind common too. Personal preference really.

F. I'd bet a bit more, say 0.15. You'll find straight and flush draws call you plenty often.

T. I don't mind a check here without reads to see if someone can catch a card so you can stack em. If you have a read that they'll call a 1/2P bet with a draw tho, bet.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
bet it again, you want those diamond draws to pay the turn, cause you won't get anything from them if the river blanks ... plus you just stuck it in 9T's ass and they're not folding here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an 'implied odds check'.

[sputum]

I would never ever check this turn vs unknowns. Half the pot gives them easy calls with draws and few jacks will fold to it. Bet more if default villains will call larger bets, but half pot seems fine, reopening the bidding cheaply. You may get a bluff raise on the turn, you never know. Give them another chance this round.

[xorthio]

bet it again, you want the draws too pay and against a jack or other pair you want too let them pay twice for a showdown

[bozzer]

don't the draws often just fold?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
don't the draws often just fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
lmao

[Sir Winalot]

The flop is draw heavy, bet pot. Definetly valuebet the turn, I'd go for 3/4 to full pot.

[barryc83]

Pot the turn they're calling, check if you dislike money. Bet bet bet your big hands, thats how you profit at micro NL.

[homanga]

Bet .15 on flop.
Turn bet 2/3 pot and try and let someone suck out to stack on river

[ben wb]

I always raise this preflop to 25c, as played bet more on the flop, about 15c and bet about 35c on the turn. I don't like checking the turn, it just keeps the pot really small and gets no value from draws, you want to build a big pot here.

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot the turn they're calling, check if you dislike money. Bet bet bet your big hands, thats how you profit at micro NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

sending me my Hand History and I forgot to save it last night while planning to post the river action. It went like this:

Hero checks
River: /images/graemlins/diamond.gif()
SB bets $1.00, UTG raises $1.00 to $2.00, Hero /images/graemlins/grin.gif

So again, this is what I was eluding to- I didn't necessarily see any value in betting the turn as I felt if another diamond fell on the river, I could probably induce action on the river being that it helped one of them (if not both).

Hero raises $1.05 to $3.05

This starts a chain reaction to where I had them both AI (all-in), I covered, and won a pot of over $13+.

[GrinningBuddha]

Against better players, you need to get the pot bigger on the turn in order to stack them on the river. $0.50 just isn't going to generate enough action to get their $7 stack into the pot since they're likely to at best flat call your raise on the river.

Bet the turn, they're not going to fold unless they don't have a hand that will pay you off on the river anyway.

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
Against better players, you need to get the pot bigger on the turn in order to stack them on the river. $0.50 just isn't going to generate enough action to get their $7 stack into the pot since they're likely to at best flat call your raise on the river.

Bet the turn, they're not going to fold unless they don't have a hand that will pay you off on the river anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, the extreme majority of the players at these stakes aren't good/better players which is why I think this play worked best. Also, I doubt any good player is going to be calling any significant size bet OOP on the turn with this type of board enough of the time to stack them on the river. I'm bailing on the turn in SB and UTG's spot facing a $0.50 bet.

[JadeRedstone]

If they call the flop bet why wouldn't they call the turn bet. Bet again.

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against better players, you need to get the pot bigger on the turn in order to stack them on the river. $0.50 just isn't going to generate enough action to get their $7 stack into the pot since they're likely to at best flat call your raise on the river.

Bet the turn, they're not going to fold unless they don't have a hand that will pay you off on the river anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, the extreme majority of the players at these stakes aren't good/better players which is why I think this play worked best. Also, I doubt any good player is going to be calling any significant size bet OOP on the turn with this type of board enough of the time to stack them on the river. I'm bailing on the turn in SB and UTG's spot facing a $0.50 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I think the advice in this thread to blindly 'bet your big hands' in this situation is rubbish. Even a half pot bet will fold out many people with drawing hands while telegraphing that you have a big hand to any observant players. A turn check induces bluffs on the river while letting people draw dead against you. You sacrifice a small amount of value now (from stubbon drawers) to gain more value later (when they hit their flush).

[bozzer]

[ QUOTE ]
If they call the flop bet why wouldn't they call the turn bet. Bet again.

[/ QUOTE ]

???

Because they have pot odds to draw on the flop but would only have the correct odds to call a very small turn bet?

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against better players, you need to get the pot bigger on the turn in order to stack them on the river. $0.50 just isn't going to generate enough action to get their $7 stack into the pot since they're likely to at best flat call your raise on the river.

Bet the turn, they're not going to fold unless they don't have a hand that will pay you off on the river anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, the extreme majority of the players at these stakes aren't good/better players which is why I think this play worked best. Also, I doubt any good player is going to be calling any significant size bet OOP on the turn with this type of board enough of the time to stack them on the river. I'm bailing on the turn in SB and UTG's spot facing a $0.50 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I think the advice in this thread to blindly 'bet your big hands' in this situation is rubbish. Even a half pot bet will fold out many people with drawing hands while telegraphing that you have a big hand to any observant players. A turn check induces bluffs on the river while letting people draw dead against you. You sacrifice a small amount of value now (from stubbon drawers) to gain more value later (when they hit their flush).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my thinking but it's hard to put into words. If I'm first to act in either SB or UTG's spot, I predominately might put out a blocking bet of $0.10 for pot control purposes and observe the action from there. A boat or straight, more than likely, will reveal itself with a raise here to start building the pot for more value. Once that happens, it's time to ditch anything but the nuts because you're gonna be committing alot of money with 2nd best hands on the river.

[Unknown Soldier]

alot of discussion....

I don't see what is so complicated, bet a bit more on the flop. and value betting in 5NL &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; slow playing. Bet the turn, build a pot up.

[avfletch]

I'm not convinced by the argument that betting turn is telegraphing that you have a big hand to an observant player. Surely you'd bet the turn if you had AJ?

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
alot of discussion....

I don't see what is so complicated, bet a bit more on the flop. and value betting in 5NL &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; slow playing. Bet the turn, build a pot up.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not complicated at all if you have alot of experience playing NLH; it's just an alternate line to induce more value with position on the river if one or both players hit their card. You're assuming, after both unknown OOP players checked, that they are gonna call another pot building bet to see the river on more than likely unmade hands a good percentage of the times. A pot building bet on the turn from me is going to cause most hands to fold, whereas checking, allows them another free card to catch up. When their card hits, they are going build the pot first to get more value out of their made hand, and with position and the nuts, I get to build it further. Before they realize it, it's too late and their pot committed.

[Vyse]

If the draw doesn't hit on the river, you get nothing. By betting on the turn, they will call with their draws -- 95% of players at uNL always call for their draws, esp with odds -- and whether they hit or not you got value.

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
If the draw doesn't hit on the river, you get nothing. By betting on the turn, they will call with their draws -- 95% of players at uNL always call for their draws, esp with odds -- and whether they hit or not you got value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have the actual math on this assertion? This doesn't sound 95% correct.

[Vyse]

omg u funnay

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]
If the draw doesn't hit on the river, you get nothing. By betting on the turn, they will call with their draws -- 95% of players at uNL always call for their draws, esp with odds -- and whether they hit or not you got value.

[/ QUOTE ]Totally agree. In my experience at this level a lot of players will not fold a draw no matter what odds they're getting, some of them will even call pot sized bets with gutshots.

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]

Hero raises $1.05 to $3.05

This starts a chain reaction to where I had them both AI (all-in), I covered, and won a pot of over $13+.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like your river minraise, just push and they'll call anyway.

[Desdia01]

when it comes to slowplaying.
1. You have a very strong hand.
2. The free card you are allowing other players to draw to has a good possibility of completing second best hands.
3. The same free card has little possibility of completing a better hand than yours.
4. You must be sure you will drive out other players by showing aggression (i.e. betting after others checked on the turn to build the pot) , but you have a good chance of winning a big pot if you don't.
5. The pot must not be very large (by the turn, the pot is small in relation to our remaining stacks).

[ben wb]

I don't think 4 is true at all here.

[Check_The_Nuts]

Def. bet 1/2 to 2/3 pot and hope their drawing. No real need to punch the turn to "punish draws" since they'll just be drawing to a 2nd best hand. You want them to draw here, cuz u get money from them drawing+if they hit.

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think 4 is true at all here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sure that by betting (showing aggression) would drive out one player or both players out, but that if I checked and they hit, I was sure to win a big hand.

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think 4 is true at all here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sure that by betting (showing aggression) would drive out one player or both players out, but that if I checked and they hit, I was sure to win a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why were you so sure you would drive them out. I really doubt it. You could just bet 25c if you really think they will fold draws for more than that and they probably wouldn't. You say you have no reads, without reads I think it's fair to assume villains at this level will not fold a flush draw for 2/3 of the pot or less.

[Desdia01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hero raises $1.05 to $3.05

This starts a chain reaction to where I had them both AI (all-in), I covered, and won a pot of over $13+.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like your river minraise, just push and they'll call anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

The miniraise sucks them in further without scaring them away.

[ben wb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hero raises $1.05 to $3.05

This starts a chain reaction to where I had them both AI (all-in), I covered, and won a pot of over $13+.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like your river minraise, just push and they'll call anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

The miniraise sucks them in further without scaring them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they have a hand good enough to reraise your minraise, they will not fold to a push ever. Minraising just gives them a chance to just call and save a bit of money, if they have a flush they will often go all in anyway but pushing is the most profitable play.