Why do Christians think Mormons are crazy?

[JaredL]

Firstly, the question is probably not well worded because Mormon's are Christians in that they believe Christ is the messiah.

Ignoring that, I know a fair number of people in both groups. Something I don't get is why a lot of christians think the mormons are crazy to believe what they do. I find this surprising for a number of reasons:
1. As mentioned above, they believe a lot of the same stuff. Mormons believe Christ is the son of god, died for our sins, his mom was a virgin and so on. Jews don't have the disdain for Christians that Christians have for Mormons and it's sort of the same deal since Christians believe the stuff in the old testament/torah.
2. They often claim that mormonism is a cult. There are a variety of possible definitions of a cult. All of them that I'm familiar with apply to Christians just as well as Mormons. Christians believe, or at least should, that anybody outside of their religious group is going to hell. Put a less controversial way, they believe that only they will be saved. Mormons are essentially the same but you can pray for people that lived a long time ago I guess.
3. As somewhat pointed out in 1, a lot of the things christians believe are very strange. They believe that at times the laws of physics have been violated, that miracles have occurred. That is, god somehow invoked his will, and reason doesn't apply. Thinking others are crazy for happening to believe that god did a few other things for which reason and logic don't apply seems odd given this notion. In short, I can see several reasons why atheists think mormons are nuts, but don't see how christians can think that they are nuts for those same reasons.

I should point out, that I absolutely understand why christians might not think that mormonism is correct. It's simply that a lot of them seem shocked that people could possibly believe the things they do when they are simply taking the same type of leap of faith.

Jared

[vhawk01]

There are more Christians than Mormons, and Mormonism was invented embarassingly recently.

[MidGe]

Of course, Mormons are christians, and there are many evangelical sects that were invented/founded embarrassingly recently. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[arahant]

They're idiots?

[Metric]

I happen to have a little knowledge of this, having a family member who was recently baptized in the Mormon church, to the dismay of some other family members...

From what I gather, the general sense is that there is basically no archaeological evidence supporting historical events, detailed in the book of Mormon, which take place in South America (stuff that would be extremely obvious -- the existence of metal coins, metal weapons, remains of horses and other species which "don't belong", massive cities, apocalyptic battles, etc). Furthermore, there is very strong evidence to suggest that the book of Abraham was "translated" (purportedly from "ancient reformed Egyptian" -- a language which remains unknown to the rest of Egyptology) from some very common Egyptian burial scrolls, which have since been properly translated as a consequence of the discovery of the Rosetta Stone.

Throw in some relatively strict and centralized rules over money, family, and church hierarchy, the fact that it's based on the writings of a single man, etc. and it's not hard to see how outsiders could view Mormonism as a bit of a "cult" in the Scientology sense of the word.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on Mormonism, nor do I really care to be. The above is based on gleanings from recent discussions of the topic with various family members, which bear mainly on the issue of "why some Christians feel that way" rather than on the accuracy of the arguments themselves.

[MidGe]

Metric,

From your comments about lack of archaeological evidence etc.. sounds just like many other common christian beliefs to me.
I do consider myself an expert on christianity in its variegated manifestations. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Metric]

I would agree that the situation would be analogous to garden-variety Christianity if 100% of Biblical cities and the Roman Empire itself had left not a single archaeological trace, and the dead sea scrolls were discovered to actually be fragments of an ancient Greek laundry list.

There is no doubt that Christians demonstrate a high ability to "suspend disbelief" on certain Biblical accounts, but my perception is that Mormons have taken it to a dramatically new level, and built a relatively more controlling church around it all.

BTW, the Mormons I've met also happen to be some of the nicest and most civilized people I've met, so...

[cambraceres]

Mormon beliefs are seriously skewed from the orthodox christian perspective.

Think about how most Christian cherish the idea of an idyllic afterlife with their heavenly father, spending the rest of eterntiy praising his transcendent glory in everlasting bliss. Mormons don't even believe in hell.

How could this be ok for a fundamentalst Christian?

Cam

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no doubt that Christians demonstrate a high ability to "suspend disbelief" on certain Biblical accounts, but my perception is that Mormons have taken it to a dramatically new level, and built a relatively more controlling church around it all.

[/ QUOTE ]


They learned from the mistakes of others and some of the younger "orthodox" (which is only a perspective, cam) christian sects from the posters on these forums are more objectionable if equally unprobable
[ QUOTE ]
BTW, the Mormons I've met also happen to be some of the nicest and most civilized people I've met, so.

[/ QUOTE ]

The very few I have met gave me a similar impression, but I even prefer the Amish's. At least they are not pushing their doctrines onto everyone, not even trying to. I guess, however unsuccessful they may be, at least they try to lead by example rather than by preaching.

[Metric]

I've never heard mainstream Christians refer to the Amish as cult-like, either -- they merely choose a simpler lifestyle.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree that the situation would be analogous to garden-variety Christianity if 100% of Biblical cities and the Roman Empire itself had left not a single archaeological trace, and the dead sea scrolls were discovered to actually be fragments of an ancient Greek laundry list.

There is no doubt that Christians demonstrate a high ability to "suspend disbelief" on certain Biblical accounts, but my perception is that Mormons have taken it to a dramatically new level, and built a relatively more controlling church around it all.

BTW, the Mormons I've met also happen to be some of the nicest and most civilized people I've met, so...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the Book of Mormon is much more credible than the Bible. Which isn't to say it's remotely credible, of course, but if we're really holding them to the same standard we had better allow the same escapes - like, "it's not meant to be taken literally." Also, Mormon apologists are more effective in my experience than fundamentalist apologists, perhaps because there have been some very smart people who've stepped in to defend the LDS Church. LDS philosophy is certainly more consistent than many people want to give it credit for, much more so than Dianetics.

If we're accepting the Christian myths, I see no valid reason to reject the Mormon myths. Of course, it's not hard to understand the motivations of other Christians in disliking the LDS Church, particularly since it's the fastest-growing Christian sect and most of its members are taken from the ranks of Catholicism and Protestantism.

[Metric]

"It's not meant to be taken literally" doesn't begin to cover things like the gross mistranslation of documents with easily verifiable content. Either the translation was done correctly, or not. Joseph Smith's original documents regarding the translation of the Book of Abraham exist to this day (I just checked this out online), and if you'd like you can read -- in JS's own handwriting -- exactly the meaning given to each transcribed symbol, which of course is grossly in error.

So, let's face it -- the guy was obviously making the stuff up as he went. It's as provable as any case of incorrect translation can possibly be. I suppose I should say, however, that I do understand the motives in assigning "much more credibility" to this stuff than to the Bible, if one of your hobbies happens to be dueling with Christian apologists every day...

[Insp. Clue!So?]

"Ever notice how funny other people's religions are?"

--Physicist Bob Park

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
"Ever notice how funny other people's religions are?"

--Physicist Bob Park


[/ QUOTE ]

That's a great quote. When I was 19, I realized that my own Mormon religion was severely flawed, so I just quit going to church. My entire extended family thought I had lost my marbles, but many of my buddies gave me a big pat on the back, and encouraged me to go to their churches. Oh, my gosh, I saw every psychotic thing that I ever wish to witness for the rest of my life. I think all western religions are crazy.

[BluffTHIS!]

Jared,

Mormons don't actually believe as many of the core doctrines of Christianity as you might think. Their doctrines diverge so much that they cannot be considered Christian. They don't actually believe in the virgin birth, nor in the Trinity. And as far-fetched as some non-Christians might think various Christian writings and beliefs are, those of the Mormons which separate them from Christians are *extremely* far-fetched, and have a basis in Masonic rituals (undergarment fervent believers wear). Keep in mind that their religion is less than 200 years old, and thus many of their beliefs *should* be verifiable if true, but aren't. And look to how they have changed their beliefs on polygamy only after the US gov't wouldn't admit Utah as a state unless they did, and in the past 30 years decided blacks can actually belong to the Mormon priesthood.

Regarding their being a cult or not, they are too large a church for that to be true, plus they don't use physical threats and intimidation of members. However they do shun. This is just for the present day though. In their first 50 years they were clearly a cult, and often used violence and intimidation in early Utah against non-believers or those who broke away.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do Christians think Mormons are crazy?

[/ QUOTE ]

The same reason bipolars think schizophrenics are crazy. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Al68]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do Christians think Mormons are crazy?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because one wife is already one too many.

[vhawk01]

I don't think this thread title could have invited more one-liners if it had said "'These Mormons are so crazy'...'how crazy are they?'" and was read aloud by Gene Rayburn.

[llayner]

When you have to show your tax return to the church to be in good standing, its a cult.

[John21]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think this thread title could have invited more one-liners if it had said "'These Mormons are so crazy'...'how crazy are they?'" and was read aloud by Gene Rayburn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not quite as many as your "belief-o-matic" post. We're all Quakers. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[goofball]

Jared,

Because they are crazy. Of course christians are crazy too.

[justscott]

Are we talking about the religion where Joseph Smith was given golden tablets, that i believe were in ancient egyptian hieroglyphs? Joseph translated these tablets into the book of mormon as i recall.
1. Thought one "If god gives me some gold tablets I am not going to lose them."
2. "Couldn't god have written them in english?"
3. REFER TOO THOUGHT ONE...

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Are we talking about the religion where Joseph Smith was given golden tablets, that i believe were in ancient egyptian hieroglyphs? Joseph translated these tablets into the book of mormon as i recall.
1. Thought one "If god gives me some gold tablets I am not going to lose them."
2. "Couldn't god have written them in english?"
3. REFER TOO THOUGHT ONE...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would God have written them in English?

[justscott]

Why not?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[madnak]

Has anyone seen Angels in America?

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone seen Angels in America?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The one with Al Pacino? Disturbing but very addicting.

[SitNHit]

I would like to respond to this, just clearing up some facts.

I am Mormon and although I do struggle with morality like us all, my
beliefs dont change just cause of my actions.

1. Mormons do not believe that everybody outside of there religion is going to hell.
That couldnt be farther from the truth. We as Mormons stance on this is we have no
right to judge a persons beliefs or circumstances/reasons for doing what they do which
will determine where they go in the afterlife. We believe that most will have the opportunity
to accept the truth as its presented to him in heaven even if the chose to deny on earth.
God loves us and wants us to return to him. The church also believes that there are three
kingdoms in heaven then outer darkness AKA hell. It takes a truly evil person to not end up
somewhere in heaven.

2. The basic Christian belief is that God is just a blob of 3 spirits, the Mormon belief is
that God and Jesus Christ are 2 different personages and have there own bodies and presence.
When I say this to Christians they say we believe that too but most dont know that technically there
church preaches against that belief.

3. The basic Christian belief is that as long as you believe in God , you will go to heaven, no matter
what you do on this earth, im sorry, its not that easy and there would be no purpose for our existance if it was.

4. Mormonsim wasnt invented , it was restored, because Joseph Smith looked at the world he lived in with 100s of
different religions all preaching from the same book and at 14 years old said, this isnt right. And he was the
chosen person to translate the restored Gospel which started when he prayed. imagine a 14 year old in that day and age
contimplating the fact that all couldnt be true, was pretty remarkable. The Bible had to be restored cause of the many times
it was rewritten over the year and revelation about another time and prophets was revealed. He was simply the translater and
person in charge of bringing this to the world.

In addition to the bible, there is the Book or Mormon(recordings of phophets, just like bible but different time).
Doctrine and Covenants(Revaltion from God himself) and the Pearl of Great Price(more scripture).

To think that one man just made all this up is as obsurd as saying that the universe doesnt exist.

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to respond to this, just clearing up some facts.

I am Mormon and although I do struggle with morality like us all, my
beliefs dont change just cause of my actions.

1. Mormons do not believe that everybody outside of there religion is going to hell.
That couldnt be farther from the truth. We as Mormons stance on this is we have no
right to judge a persons beliefs or circumstances/reasons for doing what they do which
will determine where they go in the afterlife. We believe that most will have the opportunity
to accept the truth as its presented to him in heaven even if the chose to deny on earth.
God loves us and wants us to return to him. The church also believes that there are three
kingdoms in heaven then outer darkness AKA hell. It takes a truly evil person to not end up
somewhere in heaven.

2. The basic Christian belief is that God is just a blob of 3 spirits, the Mormon belief is
that God and Jesus Christ are 2 different personages and have there own bodies and presence.
When I say this to Christians they say we believe that too but most dont know that technically there
church preaches against that belief.

3. The basic Christian belief is that as long as you believe in God , you will go to heaven, no matter
what you do on this earth, im sorry, its not that easy and there would be no purpose for our existance if it was.

4. Mormonsim wasnt invented , it was restored, because Joseph Smith looked at the world he lived in with 100s of
different religions all preaching from the same book and at 14 years old said, this isnt right. And he was the
chosen person to translate the restored Gospel which started when he prayed. imagine a 14 year old in that day and age
contimplating the fact that all couldnt be true, was pretty remarkable. The Bible had to be restored cause of the many times
it was rewritten over the year and revelation about another time and prophets was revealed. He was simply the translater and
person in charge of bringing this to the world.

In addition to the bible, there is the Book or Mormon(recordings of phophets, just like bible but different time).
Doctrine and Covenants(Revaltion from God himself) and the Pearl of Great Price(more scripture).

To think that one man just made all this up is as obsurd as saying that the universe doesnt exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you do not mind, what is your age and education level?

[SitNHit]

I have no idea if thats intending that my spelling or grammer is really bad, but prolly is, lol. Education is a careless GED, 22 YO......

[justscott]

Grammar. That pretty much tells me all I needed too know.

[SitNHit]

meaning that the words i typed mean nothing cause of the grammer or that the grammer represents my education level?

Believe me, dont matter how much school i go to, i could give a crap about having good grammer, means nothing to me, thats why we have editors like you.

[justscott]

Hey, I type some slang in these forums. I even mess up sometimes on spelling. You on the other hand presented this long paragraph in defense of the mormons and misspelled half the words. I am a firm believer that religions like this prey on the uneducated. I am truly sorry they got you.

[SitNHit]

lmao, please tell me half the words i messed up on. did u ever think that its just a bad typing style/habit , i bow down to ya mr superior

[Metric]

That's a bit of a low blow, justscott.

[yukoncpa]

Hi Justscott

I could haul in plenty of Mormons with doctorates who live right in my neighborhood. However, I share and understand your sentiment.

Hi Sitnhit

Ha, You are brave posting on this forum. I think the Mormon notion that most everyone go’s to heaven is indeed a great notion. Indeed it is my understanding that only those people who have an absolute knowledge of God and then reject him, are destined to Outer darkness ( or hell ). So even someone as horrible as Adolph Hitler most likely wouldn’t qualify.

However, surly you realize, that even though Joseph Smith may have had his vision at the age of 14, the Book of Mormon wasn’t published until he was 24 or 25. J.R.R Tolkien made up equally fantastic characters by the time he was 25. To say that making all of this up, is as unlikely as the universe not existing, is a bit of a stretch.

[SitNHit]

It is fair to say that it is a bit of a stretch , i agree, it may not be that obvious, but it would also be hard to believe. If someone believes he made it up, then someone just made up the bible too then right? Not posing to your directly, just in general. Both are just as likely or not likely to those who dont believe.....

And I'll match my knowledge on a variety of subjects against anybody, just dont expect perfect grammer in explaining them. I dont even remember looking in a english book through 12 grades of school.

I actually write alot of poems that I think are quite interesting, good thing those dont require much gammer, haha.

I bow down to everybody with better grammer then me. I truly wish I could as cool and grammerized as you.

[justscott]

Yes I did low blow a little there sorry. Of course education is what it is, but if you did not cringe after the first sentence of that mess then I can't continue with any discussion along those lines.

Anyway grammar aside here, Where are those tablets???? I mean come on....

[SitNHit]

Dont relate higher education with grammAR, grammAR is grammAR education is a whole other thing in which grammAR occupies about a .0010% of.

[SitNHit]

See Good Will Hunting..... Is he not educated? Just cause he didn't pay attention in grammAR class. LOL at relating to a movie character

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont relate higher education with grammAR, grammAR is grammAR education is a whole other thing in which grammAR occupies about a .0010% of.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is simply untrue but as i said lets move past that.
Answer my question on the tablets please.

[Peter666]

"4. Mormonsim wasnt invented , it was restored, because Joseph Smith looked at the world he lived in with 100s of
different religions all preaching from the same book and at 14 years old said, this isnt right. And he was the
chosen person to translate the restored Gospel which started when he prayed."

I find this interesting because it contains the truth that a hundred different religions could not pop out of the same Biblical authority and yet all be true. So it is definitely ironic if a unitedpresbyunilateralistepiscobaptist makes fun of a Mormon.

My question to the Mormon is: what is the basis of authority of the Mormon religion? When did it all go astray from its original self? What do Mormons think of the early Church fathers (eg. St. Augustine et al)?

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
"4. Mormonsim wasnt invented , it was restored, because Joseph Smith looked at the world he lived in with 100s of
different religions all preaching from the same book and at 14 years old said, this isnt right. And he was the
chosen person to translate the restored Gospel which started when he prayed."

I find this interesting because it contains the truth that a hundred different religions could not pop out of the same Biblical authority and yet all be true. So it is definitely ironic if a unitedpresbyunilateralistepiscobaptist makes fun of a Mormon.

My question to the Mormon is: what is the basis of authority of the Mormon religion? When did it all go astray from its original self? What do Mormons think of the early Church fathers (eg. St. Augustine et al)?


[/ QUOTE ]
Mormon’s claim authority directly from God. God and his son Jesus Christ appeared before Joseph Smith and explained that the church fell into apostasy. Apparently, the church fell into apostasy before even 430 AD ( the time of Augustine ). Therefore, Joseph Smith restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ the way it was meant from the very beginning.

[SitNHit]

You know what boggles my mind, the Mormon church is the most critized church there is, its amazing. Type in any Mormon phrase in google, all you'll are sites about how wrong it is, evil, cultish, full of lies, etc. No wonder people think what they do about it, they get their info from people with agendas against it. I remember I went to the conference in Utah, it was truly an unreal scene, so many hecklers yelling at us, holding up signs of a burning Christ, yelling out scriptures, telling we are going to hell, it was like a half mile long circle of em, 100s and 100s, dressed up as devils, it was pretty insane.

The Mormon church teaches nothing but obedience, service, kindness and respect of others, and people hate that.

Some things just will go unexplained.

[SitNHit]

Mormon’s claim authority directly from God. God and his son Jesus Christ appeared before Joseph Smith and explained that the church fell into apostasy. Apparently, the church fell into apostasy before even 430 AD ( the time of Augustine ). Therefore, Joseph Smith restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ the way it was meant from the very beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicely said.

[justscott]

Well i wouldn't say the most criticized, we still have the church of Tom Cruise too pick on.

Still waiting for you to tell me where those tablets went?

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"4. Mormonsim wasnt invented , it was restored, because Joseph Smith looked at the world he lived in with 100s of
different religions all preaching from the same book and at 14 years old said, this isnt right. And he was the
chosen person to translate the restored Gospel which started when he prayed."

I find this interesting because it contains the truth that a hundred different religions could not pop out of the same Biblical authority and yet all be true. So it is definitely ironic if a unitedpresbyunilateralistepiscobaptist makes fun of a Mormon.

My question to the Mormon is: what is the basis of authority of the Mormon religion? When did it all go astray from its original self? What do Mormons think of the early Church fathers (eg. St. Augustine et al)?


[/ QUOTE ]
Mormon’s claim authority directly from God. God and his son Jesus Christ appeared before Joseph Smith and explained that the church fell into apostasy. Apparently, the church fell into apostasy before even 430 AD ( the time of Augustine ). Therefore, Joseph Smith restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ the way it was meant from the very beginning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see. Who or what initiated the apostasy? and what happens to the people in between the apostasy and Joseph Smith?

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
Well i wouldn't say the most criticized, we still have the church of Tom Cruise too pick on.

Still waiting for you to tell me where those tablets went?

[/ QUOTE ]

type in mormon in youtube, lollllll

[justscott]

still waiting.............

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
I see. Who or what initiated the apostasy? and what happens to the people in between the apostasy and Joseph Smith?


[/ QUOTE ]

The apostasy was initiated at the death of the apostles. All people between the apostasy and before the apostasy have a chance to learn about the gospel after they’re dead. Don’t think that once you die you will escape the teachings of a young, well groomed Mormon missionary. ( however, maybe they will be sans bicycle in the afterlife.)

[SitNHit]

Christ predicted that the Church would fall in the New Testament. I think it was initiated cause other nations got ahold of it and it just become a different thing altogether in the hands of so many.

Has Christianity survived in one way or another since Christ? Of course. Has many of the major doctrines remained intact? Absolutely. Have good and honorable men always lived on the earth? Yes.

Did the true church and complete gospel that Christ taught to his apostles survive the ravages of persecution and internal chaos? Absolutely Not.

Which is why it needed to be restored, and Joseph Smith was a young boy when he first prayed with a pure heart and asked what the truth was. And God chose to restore it through him.

[Metric]

The whereabouts of the tablet issue, while curious, is really the least of it. The Mormon Church actually owns some of the Egyptian scrolls which were translated into the "pearl of great price" as well as JS's original translation documents, which are flat out provably incorrect. The "translation" was made from a common Egyptian burial scroll. Of course this was all done prior to widespread knowledge of the Rosetta Stone, so the JS translation was safe for a while. But not now.

One can't help but wonder if JS was equally adept in translating the golden tablets from heaven. Even granting as much as possible in the way of JS's claimed experiences, he unfortunately has a terrible track record as far as his translation of Egyptian is concerned.

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see. Who or what initiated the apostasy? and what happens to the people in between the apostasy and Joseph Smith?


[/ QUOTE ]

The apostasy was initiated at the death of the apostles. All people between the apostasy and before the apostasy have a chance to learn about the gospel after they’re dead. Don’t think that once you die you will escape the teachings of a young, well groomed Mormon missionary. ( however, maybe they will be sans bicycle in the afterlife.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you mean young WHITE missionary???

[SitNHit]

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean young WHITE missionary???

[/ QUOTE ]

My big brother is black, gg.

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean young WHITE missionary???

[/ QUOTE ]

My big brother is black, gg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he must be lonely. Do not be ignorant here and proclaim a Black population in the mormon church, it would be worse than your first Post...

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



[/ QUOTE ]

Did you mean young WHITE missionary???

[/ QUOTE ]

My big brother is black, gg.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he must be lonely. Do not be ignorant here and proclaim a Black population in the mormon church, it would be worse than your first Post...

[/ QUOTE ]

So your arguments amount to asking where the tablets are, criticizing his typing skills, and complaining about the lack of diversity in the Mormon community? You really bring a lot to the table.

[m_the0ry]

Most mormons I know think that the book of mormon is a crock.

Mormonism is about morals and being good natured. It's one of my favority sects of Christianity because it abandons direct scripture interpretation and accepts lessons in morality instead.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Most mormons I know think that the book of mormon is a crock.

Mormonism is about morals and being good natured. It's one of my favority sects of Christianity because it abandons direct scripture interpretation and accepts lessons in morality instead.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi m theory,

While I like most of the Mormon version of morality, I think I prefer Buddha’s. Here’s what I don’t like about Mormon morality:

1) Masturbation is an awful sin

2) Oral sex, even when married, is a sin

3) Don’t drink tea if you expect to go to the temple

4) Homosexuality needs to be fixed

5) Don’t marry outside of your race

6) Don’t practice birth control, indeed, have as many kids as you can. These children exist in the pre-existence and are waiting an earthly home. Give it to them as soon as possible so that we can usher in the 2nd coming of Christ.

7) No matter how poor you are, give 10% to the church, even if it means doing without or doing potential harm to your kids.

Well, I believe I could go on. But I left the Mormon church 20 years ago, back in the dark ages before google and the history channel. I left not because of archeological evidence, but rather because of what I considered to be somewhat warped morality.

[SitNHit]

My responses to this guys ASSININE comments are after his.

1) Masturbation is an awful sin-

True but its factual that
all people or most(male) have this problem at some time or off and on and they just say do your best not to.

2) Oral sex, even when married, is a sin-

This could not
be further from the truth, wrong wrong wrong.

3) Don’t drink tea if you expect to go to the temple -

They suggest to not drink tea or coffee for your health.

4) Homosexuality needs to be fixed -

This is correct, being homosexual is a choice and anti-christ. Meaning [censored]'s who don't accept that its wrong don't go to heaven, but they are given the chance to change.

5) Don’t marry outside of your race -

Dude you are so off hear its offensive, you obviously dont know what your talking about. This is 1000% wrong, the end.

6) Don’t practice birth control, indeed, have as many kids as you can. These children exist in the pre-existence and are waiting an earthly home. Give it to them as soon as possible so that we can usher in the 2nd coming of Christ.---

Its ok to practice birth control if your married, yes we are all alive in the pre-spirit world, but NO do they say have alot of kids, they dont influence this in the least. They do suggest to males that its better to get married younger then older, meaning, young 20s, then mid 30s for the fact that holding your virginity for that long may comprimise your beliefs but you should only get married for love not sex. You are sure talking out of your [censored].

7) No matter how poor you are, give 10% to the church, even if it means doing without or doing potential harm to your kids. ----

this is something that is NOT Required!, it is done through faith, if you are dirt poor, give a little, maybe give service, its not required to give 10th, although if its in your means and you believe thats a principle you should, I havent paid tithing all the time, its not a sin not too, but its a principle you should strive to live by, but that comes with faith and growing spiritually. Again, talking out of your [censored].

Dood you prolly left it cause your too weak to say no and you indulged in things, which is fine, but just dont make up lies just cause you have a personal grudge. It doesnt matter what you think or believe, what matters is<-------.....

Nice try spreading these lies. <font color="black"> </font> <font color="red"> </font> <font color="black"> </font> <font color="red"> </font>

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
My responses to this guys ASSININE comments are after his.

1) Masturbation is an awful sin-

True but its factual that
all people or most(male) have this problem at some time or off and on and they just say do your best not to.

2) Oral sex, even when married, is a sin-

This could not
be further from the truth, wrong wrong wrong.

3) Don’t drink tea if you expect to go to the temple -

They suggest to not drink tea or coffee for your health.

4) Homosexuality needs to be fixed -

This is correct, being homosexual is a choice and anti-christ. Meaning [censored]'s who don't accept that its wrong don't go to heaven, but they are given the chance to change.

5) Don’t marry outside of your race -

Dude you are so off hear its offensive, you obviously dont know what your talking about. This is 1000% wrong, the end.

6) Don’t practice birth control, indeed, have as many kids as you can. These children exist in the pre-existence and are waiting an earthly home. Give it to them as soon as possible so that we can usher in the 2nd coming of Christ.---

Its ok to practice birth control if your married, yes we are all alive in the pre-spirit world, but NO do they say have alot of kids, they dont influence this in the least. They do suggest to males that its better to get married younger then older, meaning, young 20s, then mid 30s for the fact that holding your virginity for that long may comprimise your beliefs but you should only get married for love not sex. You are sure talking out of your [censored].

7) No matter how poor you are, give 10% to the church, even if it means doing without or doing potential harm to your kids. ----

this is something that is NOT Required!, it is done through faith, if you are dirt poor, give a little, maybe give service, its not required to give 10th, although if its in your means and you believe thats a principle you should, I havent paid tithing all the time, its not a sin not too, but its a principle you should strive to live by, but that comes with faith and growing spiritually. Again, talking out of your [censored].

Dood you prolly left it cause your too weak to say no and you indulged in things, which is fine, but just dont make up lies just cause you have a personal grudge. It doesnt matter what you think or believe, what matters is&lt;-------.....

Nice try spreading these lies.


[/ QUOTE ]


Don't call me a liar or call my comments asinine, unless you are able to back up your assertions. I know what I am talking about, weakness has nothing to do with me leaving the church, rather I would call it strength. Here is one link illustrating my point: Mormon oral sex (http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_oral_sex.htm)

I could happily prove every point that I made, but need to go to bed right now. Your knowledge of the Mormon church is juvenile. Here is another link for you: Mormon marriage outside of race (http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/12/boyd-k-packer-current-mormon-apostle.html)

edit- I was a Mormon in the old days, perhaps your church has now changed it's opinions on these topics. Also, as far as having a lot of kids: I was called into a meeting with my bishop, who told me that the world is not overpopulating, that the men of this world believe that having 2 kids is a correct amount, but this is false. We should have as many kids as we can. As far as just giving a little? Ha, if you don't pay a full tithe, at least when I was young, you couldn't go to the temple.

[SitNHit]

Your so 30 years ago.. And speaking from them. Maybe I should judge american now for the slavery of its citizens in the 1800s....

That makes alot of sense.

The teachings of the church are perfect, but man isnt perfect which is why there are new revelations all the time. How can a mortal man be expected to make these rules without inspiration, and you cant choose when you recieve that inspiration or revalation so you dont know better. You learn from your history, thats how you become better.

[yukoncpa]

I was so offended at being called a liar, that I couldn't sleep. Here's another link for you: Mormon tithe by coercion (http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/tithing.html)

Listen, it doesn't at all matter if the sites I linked are anti-mormon or not, I simply googled and linked the first sites of many that came up on the subjects that I mentioned that you called me a liar over. If I'm wrong, then kindly link me to a site that demonstrates that I am wrong. Otherwise, decease in you ad-hominem attacks.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Your so 30 years ago.. And speaking from them. Maybe I should judge american now for the slavery of its citizens in the 1800s....

That makes alot of sense.

The teachings of the church are perfect, but man isnt perfect which is why there are new revelations all the time. How can a mortal man be expected to make these rules without inspiration, and you cant choose when you recieve that inspiration or revalation so you dont know better. You learn from your history, thats how you become better.



[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, I am 30 years ago, but the Church's principles never change. This is what I was taught. The prohibition against oral sex, etc. was proclaimed by a prophet of God. Are you saying that his proclamation has now changed? Were the prophets of 30 years ago, false prophets? You said yourself the teachings of the church are perfect. This is also what I was taught. So are you saying what was perfect 30 years ago, isn’t perfect now? Please apologize for your attacks on my integrity. I have in no way been rude to you. If there are new revelations all the time, kindly point me to the revelation that says Mormon’s can now have oral sex with their spouses

[SitNHit]

The Doctine never changes, but certain things do as we evolve as a society. The teachings in the BOM, D&amp;C never change. You will also notice that there is nothing about oral sex, marrying your race etc from your claims, in those books...

Fact is, some principles do change. The only perfect teachings are those in the books. Just like when porn hit the scene big time, it had to be told and made clear that porn is not ok, now same with gambling alot. A Bishop, prophet, etc cannot be perfect, its impossible, so in essence, they can't lead perfectly, etc.

30 Years ago times were alot different then they are today sir, and I am sorry for calling you a liar, I just get offended sometimes when people say things like you said as fact, and not just speculation.

Thank You!

[madnak]

Wow. Talk about a fireball. I'm trying to figure out if there's any of this I want to touch, but I doubt it.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
The Doctine never changes, but certain things do as we evolve as a society. The teachings in the BOM, D&amp;C never change. You will also notice that there is nothing about oral sex, marrying your race etc from your claims, in those books...

Fact is, some principles do change. The only perfect teachings are those in the books. Just like when porn hit the scene big time, it had to be told and made clear that porn is not ok, now same with gambling alot. A Bishop, prophet, etc cannot be perfect, its impossible, so in essence, they can't lead perfectly, etc.

30 Years ago times were alot different then they are today sir, and I am sorry for calling you a liar, I just get offended sometimes when people say things like you said as fact, and not just speculation.

Thank You!


[/ QUOTE ] Everything I stated was a fact 20 or 30 years ago, and I based my decisions back then on the facts back then. If you recall, I stated that I left the church some 20 years ago because of it's stance on certain issues of morality. I was not speculating at that time.
I just had a chat with my brother who tells me that the current Mormon president has put an end to what past presidents ( prophets ) have said about oral sex. Sounds to me, based on what you've said and what my brother said, that the church isn' t as severe as it used to be. I guess, from what I'm hearing from you that, when the book of Mormon calls polygamy an abomination, that this is a principle that is perfect and shouldn't change. Joseph Smith had a change in mind on that one, so it shouldn't supprise me that the church changed it's position on oral sex. polygamy in the book of mormon (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/good/long.html)
( lest I'm accused of mere speculation. And, yes, I know polygamy is no longer practiced)

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
3) Don’t drink tea if you expect to go to the temple -

They suggest to not drink tea or coffee for your health.

[/ QUOTE ]

tea is good for you lol

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Your so 30 years ago.. And speaking from them. Maybe I should judge american now for the slavery of its citizens in the 1800s....

That makes alot of sense.

The teachings of the church are perfect, but man isnt perfect which is why there are new revelations all the time. How can a mortal man be expected to make these rules without inspiration, and you cant choose when you recieve that inspiration or revalation so you dont know better. You learn from your history, thats how you become better.

[/ QUOTE ]


So what you are saying is that all of the views you currently have about Mormonism are absolutely wrong and will be different in 30 years? Good to know!

[goofball]

SitnHit,

Please take timei to review the proper uses of your and you're. I only have two questions regarding mormonism:

From what I understand in mormon mythology god commands you to follow man's laws, and when mormonism was created he commanded polygamy. Given that polygamy was illegal in the United States how can he give contradicting commands.

Second, do you have any evidence to prove people "choose" to be gay or are you just talking?

Do you choose to be straight?
With the level of persecution in this country, why would someone choose to be gay? Gay people aren't allowed to marry, they're looked down on by much of society, they are even the victims of hate crimes. Why would someone (so many people as it happens) choose that life for themselves?
Why do people gay struggle so much with their emerging sexuality if they are "choosing" to be gay?

I don't even know why I bothered engaging you on this I'm sure you're just spitting back out what you've been fed at church without a second thought.

Also why was it ok for Joseph Smith to do the things he did (marry other men's wives, marry minors etc.) but not for ok for you?

Also, why is it ok for mormon missionaries to play halfcourt basketball but not full court basketball?
See rules number 56 and 59. (http://www.lds4u.com/Missionaries/rules.htm)

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
SitnHit,

Please take timei to review the proper uses of your and you're. I only have two questions regarding mormonism:

From what I understand in mormon mythology god commands you to follow man's laws, and when mormonism was created he commanded polygamy. Given that polygamy was illegal in the United States how can he give contradicting commands.

Second, do you have any evidence to prove people "choose" to be gay or are you just talking?

Do you choose to be straight?
With the level of persecution in this country, why would someone choose to be gay? Gay people aren't allowed to marry, they're looked down on by much of society, they are even the victims of hate crimes. Why would someone (so many people as it happens) choose that life for themselves?
Why do people gay struggle so much with their emerging sexuality if they are "choosing" to be gay?

I don't even know why I bothered engaging you on this I'm sure you're just spitting back out what you've been fed at church without a second thought.

Also why was it ok for Joseph Smith to do the things he did (marry other men's wives, marry minors etc.) but not for ok for you?

Also, why is it ok for mormon missionaries to play halfcourt basketball but not full court basketball?
See rules number 56 and 59. (http://www.lds4u.com/Missionaries/rules.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Sit,

Can I get some confirmation on the authenticity of goofball's link? Because that is some awesome, hilarious stuff, and I really want that to be legitimate.

[SitNHit]

ive already spent too much time on this discussion, these are better discussed in person or phone. no more typing..........

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
ive already spent too much time on this discussion, these are better discussed in person or phone. no more typing..........

[/ QUOTE ]

So much time, so little substance. Oh well, we appreciate the effort if not the information.

[goofball]

Lame dude. why you run?

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SitnHit,

Please take timei to review the proper uses of your and you're. I only have two questions regarding mormonism:

From what I understand in mormon mythology god commands you to follow man's laws, and when mormonism was created he commanded polygamy. Given that polygamy was illegal in the United States how can he give contradicting commands.

Second, do you have any evidence to prove people "choose" to be gay or are you just talking?

Do you choose to be straight?
With the level of persecution in this country, why would someone choose to be gay? Gay people aren't allowed to marry, they're looked down on by much of society, they are even the victims of hate crimes. Why would someone (so many people as it happens) choose that life for themselves?
Why do people gay struggle so much with their emerging sexuality if they are "choosing" to be gay?

I don't even know why I bothered engaging you on this I'm sure you're just spitting back out what you've been fed at church without a second thought.

Also why was it ok for Joseph Smith to do the things he did (marry other men's wives, marry minors etc.) but not for ok for you?

Also, why is it ok for mormon missionaries to play halfcourt basketball but not full court basketball?
See rules number 56 and 59. (http://www.lds4u.com/Missionaries/rules.htm)

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Sit,

Can I get some confirmation on the authenticity of goofball's link? Because that is some awesome, hilarious stuff, and I really want that to be legitimate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made alot of sarcastic posts on here just taking the piss but wow I really want too know the answer too. I assume these rules are a joke but if they are not please tell me i must know...

[NLSoldier]

sinNhit,

lolololololol

[SitNHit]

Alright, I just had some taco bell , I have a second wind, sry for saying I was done with this, was typing on emotion, haha.



Alright, keep in mind I don't know everything off the top of my head so your I can only answer on what I know.
I should probably know more then I do, but that just takes disipline in study, etc which I am not to good at.

Im just gonna number my responses, it's been a spirited discussion and I have respect for all your opinions, whether
or not my emotional typing shows it.

1. "yukoncpa " you should know that you can't take everything you read on the internet as fact. Only way to get true
information is to read source material and then make your own opinion and not someone elses.

2. On the oral sex issue, most of the strong stances against it are old fashioned and were made as opinion. Remember,
ones personal opinions even in a leading position are not ones that are enforced sometimes. The latest position from
Gordon B. Heinkley was( and yes, positions on issues do change as time goes on, cause thats life), as follows,

"Married persons should understand that if in their marital relations they are guilty of unnatural, impure, or unholy practices,
they should not enter the temple unless and until they repent and discontinue any such practices.
Husbands and wives who are aware of these requirements can determine by themselves their standing before the Lord."

The key sentence is Husbands and wives who are aware of these requirements can determine by themselves their standing before the Lord."

Its important to know and understand this, if you think that oral sex is unnatural, impure or an unholy practice of love then
you should not do it. I for one, think Anal sex is that, which is why even though it might be pleasurable, I won't do it cause
I think its unnatural. I personally dont think oral sex done between a man and women who are legally married is wrong.
That is my determination.

The First Presidency [including Gordon B. Hinckley] has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice.
If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."

That is a very true statement, if you go against your moral compass and do something you think is wrong, you shouldnt do that.
But we are the not perfect and many times we go against ourselves, important thing is to know your doing that, and try to
do better in the future.

4. Decaffinated tea is ok to drink and yes Tea like Herbal tea, etc is very good for you and I drink it for health many times.

5. "yukoncpa" said "So what you are saying is that all of the views you currently have about Mormonism are absolutely wrong
and will be different in 30 years? Good to know!"

This is known as an extremist point of view, cause you have the mindset that its either ALL or Nothing! This is totally wrong,
and not every view has changed in the past 30 years as I hope your smart enough to realize even though u would like as much.

But I will say in my opinion that in the next 30 years, there will be some new views on certain things and positions on more vices
that become epidemics, etc. Thats why there is a leader that leads. We can't do it all ourselves and figure it out ourselves all the time,
although we do on alot of things, sometimes we need some guidance from a good source.

6. "Goofball", I first want to say that i am not the type to just accept something cause someone said so, I always have to study it,
then think about it, pray about it, really look deep inside and feel it out, cause things are not as simple as someone saying this then saying
ok , thats what i believe. Cause to choose to have these strong positions, u should really believe them, it is very important to know what you
believe and to know why, which is something I want to improve on but I assure you I wouldnt comment on something I dont believe, and if I do, ill
just say, I need to learn more about the certain topic. Im more of a thinker and a do'er then a follower.

Pologymy was condoned for select a few because to take care of women who were being widowed and didn't have anybody to take
care of them. For this reason it is my belief that God instituted polygomy once again to answer the needs some of the women and their children.
During the time of Joseph Smith people were living a hard life and many died very young, so it makes sense that God would want to have these women
be provided for since statistically more girls are born then boys and it would be fitting that there would be women without husbands. Remember
this is in the Old Days, people were not sex obsessed, didnt have porn, movies hanging around, so it wasnt about sex or anything. It was about
survival. It was not without a doubt intended as the male supremist sickness that it has become. It has been discontinued since the late 1880s
I believe, so that's that.

And also because God said said so, haha..


About homosexuality- Besides it saying so in the Bible, thats not why I think it is wrong. I believe we are on this earth for a purpose.
To go through trials and experiences and learn as much as you can of right from wrong and try to do as many rights and avoid the wrongs as
much as you can. I believe that because the Devil's presence was aloud to roam the earth that because we were given Free Agency by God that
with that means that we can choose to be influenced by the Devil. How do you think things like Porn came about, ideas implanted by weakness by
people who put themselves in those positions and chose to go that way. Some money is the root of their evil, some its lust, some its hate and
some its insanity. And for some its the ultimate trickery of the idea of being attracted to a man. Its a saying that the greatest feat the Devil
every did was making people believe he didn't exist. And I agree that is the greatest, but one that is up there is puting the idea and aiding
in many men actually lusting for other men. Just like God is a king of all Holy, the Devil is the king of all Evil. Hes a evil genius and knows
our weaknesses and does his best to exploit them. He and his demons have alot of power, and that power is so strong cause we have the ability to choose what we want to
do.

Joseph Smith did was he was told by God, he didnt understand why sometimes like polygomy or agree himself sometimes on that issue and didnt want to but he did what was needed to be done.

The reason missionaries are not aloud to play full court basketball is that it lessons the risk of injury. Not having to run so much and getting
tired, then the body fatiguing causes more injury.

AS to the list of missionary rules, when you choose to go on a mission, you are choosing to spend 2 years serving the Lord. When you serve on the
Lords behalf, you can't just be a regular joe shmoe, you are gonna be held to a higher regard and your going to need to act so. You are needed
to be 100% to go out everyday and talk with people, discuss the Gospel, go to meetings, stay on a very very strict schedule. You get more things
done if you are living a strict lifestyle and thats what is needed on a mission.

If you have questions about any one of the things on the list and have any reasonings as why you think its hilarious or object to it, please,
lets discuss.

Any other questions, comments, opinions, etc, would love to discuss.

I hope I have been at least a tiny bit informative, anyways, this was good for me to type this cause at least I spent some of my day being
productive instead of listening to stern and watching everybody loves raymond reruns.

Talk with ya soon
Mike

[MidGe]

Mike (SitNHit),

Thanks for your time an your post. How well I think of Mormons as people (I have limited, but very positive, experiences, except for the evangelism which turns me off), is, that are absolutely no differences, in quality, between their beliefs and any other christian sects, be them catholics, episcopal, lutherans or whatever else (sorry for all the sects I left out, but there are so many! /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). Please keep on living your life according to your beliefs, by example, so to speak, but don't knock on my door at inopportune times.

Enjoy! Be good in your life, according to your beliefs, but spare me the preaching especially when you disregard my convenience.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike (SitNHit),

Thanks for your time an your post. How well I think of Mormons as people (I have limited, but very positive, experiences, except for the evangelism which turns me off), is, that are absolutely no differences, in quality, between their beliefs and any other christian sects, be them catholics, episcopal, lutherans or whatever else (sorry for all the sects I left out, but there are so many! /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). Please keep on living your life according to your beliefs, by example, so to speak, but don't knock on my door at inopportune times.

Enjoy! Be good in your life, according to your beliefs, but spare me the preaching especially when you disregard my convenience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well dont be suprised if ya see a missionary in the future, ur entitled to at least a visit, but if you do, please be polite, hehe. And yes I agree, that there are lots of similarities as Christians, Catholics, Mormons believe in the Bible, im not saying they are wrong, just saying that have dont have it all... As for quality, I agree, I think most people do things in good faith, and most dont know better then what they do which is ok...

Much resepect and you dont go disregarded, I aknowledge you! so there, hehe.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Sit,

Can I get some confirmation on the authenticity of goofball's link? Because that is some awesome, hilarious stuff, and I really want that to be legitimate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm running this by some RM friends. I wouldn't be surprised, though.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
"yukoncpa " you should know that you can't take everything you read on the internet as fact. Only way to get true
information is to read source material and then make your own opinion and not someone elses.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I’m well aware of this. Everything I said was taken directly from source materials some 20 years ago. I.e., General conferences, articles in Ensign etc. I never even read the current internet articles that I linked. I only googled, for example, “mormon oral sex” and linked the first of many internet articles on the subject. I did this only to demonstrate, that even though I may very well be mistaken on issues, I did not lie.

[ QUOTE ]
"yukoncpa" said "So what you are saying is that all of the views you currently have about Mormonism are absolutely wrong
and will be different in 30 years? Good to know!"


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to let you know. Now you are calling me totally wrong for something I never even said.

edit - Actually, being called wrong is non - offensive; it’s something that is debatable. Being called a liar, weak, and asinine are simply ad hominem.

[SitNHit]

I apologize for calling you that. I break my rule of discussion by turning into debate or argument mode which i try not to do.

[Justin A]

SitNHit,

How do you know Joseph Smith wasn't insane?

Serious question.

[runner4life7]

I went through this thread and didnt see one south park reference. Watch that episode and you will see why we think mormons are crazy.

[SitNHit]

I believe he was the first prophet of the Mormon church chosen by God. Now I know most will say well you believe that cause you were born into that belief. Well my parents didn't convert to the church till I was 3 and to be honest, I didn't really understand the importance of religion and beliefs until very recently. I think the maturation process is very important to really form a true belief. Remember, as kids we believe in Santa and WWE as real, etc. As a teen I knew what Mormons believed and went along but didnt ever pay attention, skipped classes didnt care. But my first visit to the Salt Lake City temple was the changing part in my life that formed a true belief in the church.

I went with my priesthood group about 12 guys between 16 and 18. We drove for about 9 hours, got their, went to bed and woke up for a day at the Temple, the first day was saturday conference and on our way walking from the parking garage, there were tons of Anti-Mormon hecklers, yelling at us, holding signs , yelling out scripture in our face, holding images of christ bleeding on a cross, chanting stuff, it was truly an unforgettable scene, I would never believed what I saw if I never saw it myself. You would think it was a rally against the KKK , I mean, I respect peoples choice to think its not the truth but what on earth about the Church brings out so much hate in this people, I didn't understand.

I remember feeling very good about being there but walking them I felt such a evil vibe, my knees weakened like being around really just made me feel so deflated. Ill never forget that feeling, my knees almost collasped.

Well, we walked in to see conference, and the scene is unreal. So many people, quiet as can be, I was about 50 yards from the podium which the speakers for the day spoke at and I just knee I was in the right place that day.

So as that day ends, it was a good day, went to bed feeling good about it and was ready for the second and final day of conference.

Important to note I was really going through a rebellious time in my life, I was 17 and just was depressed as could be. Overweight, miserable, just download depressed.

Well Sunday comes and we do the same drill, same scene, even more people, every corner, every entrance, surounded by hecklers.

Well as the day was ending it was about 6 pm and we went to the house we were staying at and we decided to have a testimony meeting. Basically each person says whats on their mind and their opinions on the weekend.

Well we started and the 3rd guy was going and the spirit was so strong it was truly a scene ill never forget. Its like we were all just so thankful and it seemed at that moment our hearts were pure and were truly thankful for what we got and by the time this third guy goes , I am feeling so sensative to the spirit it feels like my body is filling up with water and if I even move one centimeter I am gonna burst into uncontrolable tears, so I cant hold it anymore and go down the basemant and just ball my eyes out, I have to say that at that moment, probably for the only time in my life my mind was clear and not tainted by any evil thought and I got down on my knees and just started saying that I feel this spirit and while crying just cause its so emotional, saying I cannot deny this feeling and that I am sorry for the bad decisions I have made and I now know that this church is really true, and I just cried for about 5 minutes getting it all out, then I decide to go back up. And when I do, I looked at everybody in the house and there wasnt a dry eye, and I mean guys that would never cry over anything, were teary. Ill always remember this guy named Chad, as ice cold as you get in that he keeps his emotions in check, he couldnt help it. And we all just said, we cant deny the power of the holy ghost we are feeling, and you will always remember this. Its moments like this you wait for and hope for and now you know.

Well the rest of the trip was just an emotional roller coaster, lol, we watched a really great fill about the last days of Christ at the Temple and man was that emotional. Then we drove home and I just hugged my mom, and she was happy to actually see a humbled me.

It was really surreal, right when I got home, I started dieting, exercising, and went from 285 to 206 in 3 months and looked great.

And thats how I know that this church is true and with that I know Joseph Smith wasnt insane.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
I went through this thread and didnt see one south park reference. Watch that episode and you will see why we think mormons are crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

That episode was great comedy. The creators of South Park both served Mormon missions and chose Hollywood instead of living the life. I sense some Bias on their part haha..

[goofball]

SitnHit,

Thank you for your response but you really only addressed one of my questions. It's probably my fault for not expressing myself clearly enough.

-Why do you think people choose to be gay?

-Two of gods commands were to engage in polygamy and to follow the laws of the land. Polygamy was illegal. Why does he give contradictory commands?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"yukoncpa " you should know that you can't take everything you read on the internet as fact. Only way to get true
information is to read source material and then make your own opinion and not someone elses.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I’m well aware of this. Everything I said was taken directly from source materials some 20 years ago. I.e., General conferences, articles in Ensign etc. I never even read the current internet articles that I linked. I only googled, for example, “mormon oral sex” and linked the first of many internet articles on the subject. I did this only to demonstrate, that even though I may very well be mistaken on issues, I did not lie.

[ QUOTE ]
"yukoncpa" said "So what you are saying is that all of the views you currently have about Mormonism are absolutely wrong
and will be different in 30 years? Good to know!"


[/ QUOTE ]

Just to let you know. Now you are calling me totally wrong for something I never even said.

edit - Actually, being called wrong is non - offensive; it’s something that is debatable. Being called a liar, weak, and asinine are simply ad hominem.

[/ QUOTE ]

yukon,

He is quoting me but attributing it to you, probably an honest mistake. I am the one who said what he quoted.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
SitnHit,

Thank you for your response but you really only addressed one of my questions. It's probably my fault for not expressing myself clearly enough.

-Why do you think people choose to be gay?

-Two of gods commands were to engage in polygamy and to follow the laws of the land. Polygamy was illegal. Why does he give contradictory commands?

[/ QUOTE ]

And also, his explanation of oral sex was pretty dodgy. He said that the married couple should be the ones who determine whether they are ok in the eyes of God, or whatever, for engaging in this sinful behavior, and they can repent. He then went on to say he does not think oral sex is unnatural or impure, himself. But he gave no explanation of WHY he thinks its ok. The leaders of his church, and their writings, seem to have made it pretty clear that it WAS unnatural, impure and wrong. Is he just choosing to believe its ok because getting a hummer is awesome? Why is anal sex unnatural, in his words, but oral sex is ok?

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]
SitNHit,

How do you know Joseph Smith wasn't insane?

Serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]


Come on now God would have never given those tablets to someone who was insane silly. That person may have easily lost them if he had..........

[SitNHit]

I think someone choosing to be gay is like someone choosing to kill someone. Its an explored thought taken too seriously and fed way to much time thinking about it.

IF its an official position of the Church that oral sex is wrong and I choose to do it then that is wrong, just like watching rated R movies is wrong which is do sometimes.

I am not sure on this issue, its something I will have to investigate and think about. I am a virgin so i have not made that choice yet but as it stands right now, i dont think it should be wrong for me and my future wife to give eachother pleasure that way.

Just like I let myself watch Rated R movies sometimes.

You all act like you have to be perfect to be Mormon.

You can't be, and specially for stuff like sex with your wife or occasional rated R movies or often r movies, its not
the end of the world.

I will always knowingly make wrong choices, i cant help it, im human. now i cant comment on behalf of the Church whether oral sex is wrong or right. I do however have the personal opinion that its ok with your wife.

And I do think being gay is one of the absolute worst sins you can do and its def something that should be easy to avoid, just like most of us go our whole lives without molesting kids, raping women, killing humans, stealing stuff, being racist, etc.

It just so happens that people are starting to accept homosexuality which is just so insane in itself. Listen , i dont care what any human chooses but i def dont feel bad or sympothize for people who choose to have sex with the same sex. Thats their choice, just like i dont sypothize for sex offenders having to have a sign on their lawn and be registered etc.

If gays would not be the flamers that more and more are becoming it wouldnt be as bad socially, but guys talking all lispy and stuff, thats just wrong and its like spitting in Gods face.

[madnak]

Well, you're getting closer and closer to showing your true colors, aren't you? Gotta love the Mormons.

Funny thing, when I was LDS ~13 years ago, they actually gave out pamphlets explaining how masturbation and oral sex were sins and this was an outright fact. These claims were supported with clear references to general authority. Just how far will the grooming of your faith for political correctness go? As far as it has for the other Christians? Give it 50 years, then some prophet or other will explain that being gay isn't "really" a sin, and of course when that happens you'll have known all along.

[SitNHit]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you're getting closer and closer to showing your true colors, aren't you? Gotta love the Mormons.

Funny thing, when I was LDS ~13 years ago, they actually gave out pamphlets explaining how masturbation and oral sex were sins and this was an outright fact. These claims were supported with clear references to general authority. Just how far will the grooming of your faith for political correctness go? As far as it has for the other Christians? Give it 50 years, then some prophet or other will explain that being gay isn't "really" a sin, and of course when that happens you'll have known all along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, oral sex and masterbation aside. Do you have a valid point of why you think the Mormon church is wrong. Can you reference any scripture to say it's wrong.

I hear three things being said. Homosexuality, masterbation and oral sex. Are you serious, is this all you can make your points on. That its possible that oral sex stances may have changed due to the more lustful people are becoming. Are you really just gonna recycle this.

Last time I checked this thread wasnt called , Is oral sex ok for mormons to do.

who really gives a crap, im sure that in the grand scheme of things, whether or not i have oral sex with my freaking wife will matter.

One thing that will is if you had sex with a dude and u were a dude. I gurantee that will matter.

And no matter how imperfect I am, or what I choose, it doesnt change the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I cant be expected to represent the church perfectly or explain it perfectly.

To the comment that im showing my true colors, its not even worth a reponse. Cause you have nothing else you can say except the same old stuff 99% people say.

too funny if u ask me........

All i ask is some valid points please, not some stupid questions on what someone may have said or what some pamphlet said 13 years ago, blah blah. who really cares about that. That doesnt matter till to you and does it apply to you. Let me worry about those things for myself. That has nothing to do with why the Church is the true restored Gospel.

[SitNHit]

im pretty tired, been up since 6pm, yesterday, goodnight all

[yukoncpa]

Here's the pamphlet Madnak is talking about. This web page is legit, because indeed, it is the exact same pamphlet that I was issued when I went to BYU.

Masturbation and the church (http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/little_factory.htm)

[ QUOTE ]
"There is; however, something you should not do. Sometimes a young man does not understand. Perhaps he is encouraged by unwise or unworthy companions to tamper with that factory. He might fondle himself and open that release valve. This you shouldn't do, for if you do that, the little factory will speed up. You will then be tempted again and again to release it. You can quickly be subjected to a habit, one that is not worthy, one that will leave you feeling depressed and feeling guilty. Resist that temptation. Do not be guilty of tampering or playing with this sacred power of creation. Keep it in reserve for the time when it can be righteously employed."


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
There are ways to conquer such a habit. First of all, you must leave that factory alone long enough for it to slow down. Resisting is not easy. It will take weeks, even months. But you can get the little factory slowed back to where it should be."


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"Resist those temptations. Do not tamper with your body. If you have already, cease to do it --now. Put it away and overcome it. The signal of worthy manhood is self-control."



[/ QUOTE ]

Edit - This is a member of the quorem of the 12 apostles explaining these things.
My brother ended up with chronic prostitus as a possible result of never masturbating. ( according to his doctor ). My brother takes the church's teachings very seriously. On doctors orders, he began to masturbate and reported it to his bishop and he was denied a sunday school teaching job as a consequence.

[Justin A]

Ok so you know Joseph Smith wasn't insane because you had a personal experience that was very emotional for you.

[ QUOTE ]
Well we started and the 3rd guy was going and the spirit was so strong it was truly a scene ill never forget. Its like we were all just so thankful and it seemed at that moment our hearts were pure and were truly thankful for what we got and by the time this third guy goes , I am feeling so sensative to the spirit it feels like my body is filling up with water and if I even move one centimeter I am gonna burst into uncontrolable tears, so I cant hold it anymore and go down the basemant and just ball my eyes out, I have to say that at that moment, probably for the only time in my life my mind was clear and not tainted by any evil thought and I got down on my knees and just started saying that I feel this spirit and while crying just cause its so emotional, saying I cannot deny this feeling and that I am sorry for the bad decisions I have made and I now know that this church is really true, and I just cried for about 5 minutes getting it all out, then I decide to go back up. And when I do, I looked at everybody in the house and there wasnt a dry eye, and I mean guys that would never cry over anything, were teary. Ill always remember this guy named Chad, as ice cold as you get in that he keeps his emotions in check, he couldnt help it. And we all just said, we cant deny the power of the holy ghost we are feeling, and you will always remember this. Its moments like this you wait for and hope for and now you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you explain the fact that people from all religions report similar experiences to the one you describe? How do you know what you felt was actually from the holy ghost and not just feelings manufactured by your own brain? The fact that people from all religions have similar experiences suggest that the latter is true.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, you're getting closer and closer to showing your true colors, aren't you? Gotta love the Mormons.

Funny thing, when I was LDS ~13 years ago, they actually gave out pamphlets explaining how masturbation and oral sex were sins and this was an outright fact. These claims were supported with clear references to general authority. Just how far will the grooming of your faith for political correctness go? As far as it has for the other Christians? Give it 50 years, then some prophet or other will explain that being gay isn't "really" a sin, and of course when that happens you'll have known all along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, oral sex and masterbation aside. Do you have a valid point of why you think the Mormon church is wrong. Can you reference any scripture to say it's wrong.

I hear three things being said. Homosexuality, masterbation and oral sex. Are you serious, is this all you can make your points on. That its possible that oral sex stances may have changed due to the more lustful people are becoming. Are you really just gonna recycle this.

Last time I checked this thread wasnt called , Is oral sex ok for mormons to do.

who really gives a crap, im sure that in the grand scheme of things, whether or not i have oral sex with my freaking wife will matter.

One thing that will is if you had sex with a dude and u were a dude. I gurantee that will matter.

And no matter how imperfect I am, or what I choose, it doesnt change the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

I cant be expected to represent the church perfectly or explain it perfectly.

To the comment that im showing my true colors, its not even worth a reponse. Cause you have nothing else you can say except the same old stuff 99% people say.

too funny if u ask me........

All i ask is some valid points please, not some stupid questions on what someone may have said or what some pamphlet said 13 years ago, blah blah. who really cares about that. That doesnt matter till to you and does it apply to you. Let me worry about those things for myself. That has nothing to do with why the Church is the true restored Gospel.

[/ QUOTE ]

As certain as you are that homosexual sex is wrong, that is exactly how certain many of your Mormon brethren are that oral sex is wrong. And it is exactly as certain as the Mormons fifty years ago were about issues and topics that you now 'know' they were just plain wrong about, like allowing black members, etc.

Are you starting to see why consistency matters? Of course change is inevitable, and we all change our values all the time, over time. But we don't claim they are absolutely wrong, that they are divinely wrong, and that they are CERTAINLY wrong. You are so certain that homosexuality is wrong, and I, while not certain, am willing to bet a considerable amount of money that SitNHit v3.0 (the you of the next century) will consider homosexuality to be just fine.

Faced with this, most of us have realized that the only positions worth having are those that you can rationally defend. The reason for this? These aren't likely to change. The things we consider wrong we consider wrong for REASONS, and we accept that the motivations for these reasons may change. And if they do, those things won't be wrong any more. But you posit a REASON that is unchanging, which leaves you in a sticky situation when the beliefs change anyway.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
im pretty tired, been up since 6pm, yesterday, goodnight all

[/ QUOTE ]

Happy Valentine’s day everyone.

My 80 year old Mom is a recent widow, two very nice Mormon men just showed up and gave her a bouquet of roses. They never forget special occasions, including her marriage anniversary date. I’m not Mormon and very few people know that I make a decent living just playing online poker. Because my mom has put the word out that I’m unemployed (she hates what I do for a living even though it pays the bills), I get calls constantly from Mormon business owners who offer me jobs. I recently got a DUI and have a suspended licence - Mormons keep calling me and asking if I need a ride somewhere. At first, I was perturbed by their persistent nature, but now I’m actually getting a bit use to it. These fellows who contact me, are not young missionaries, ( who I seem to scare away ) but rather, bishops and successful business owners. They all seem very nice and genuinely interested in talking with me.

Just for the record: I’m equally offended by all western religions other than possibly Judaism. So if I came down harshly on you Sitandhit and your beliefs, please understand it is not personal.

[Misfire]

I dated one and she was [censored] crazy.

[SitNHit]

Yeh, not upset or offended, etc. Just get frustrated that all this discussion is on a forum, etc. Im so much more of a talker then a typer, hehe. I respect everyones views and I think that the critisms of the Mormon church are things that are really insignificant. Like im sure at some point you may need to think about the oral sex thing and I dont know everything, from what I have asked people , they say its ok, and I mean by asking really worthy members, guys i look up to. But their are a billion things to know to make a true judgement on the church and that is not one of them.

I just suggest that you maybe know a little bit before stating things as fact. And I do not believe anything I read on the internet till I know I can trust the source.

Type in Mormon in youtube, google, etc, 100s of sites bashing and the only site that isnt against the church is the official church website.

Keep that in mind, the only way to get true information about all past talks, quotes, etc is from the source, not people whos goal in life is too discredit something.

Thats like asking a racist if I should hire a black guy based on his skills, he would not care what his skills were, he would make his judgement in a biased manner , so I prolly should not go to him for counsel and an opinoin.

I dont mind spirited discussion, but I will not anymore get into discussions about meaningless things like that , that have nothing to do with believing or not believing in the church.

[yukoncpa]

[ QUOTE ]
Type in Mormon in youtube, google, etc, 100s of sites bashing and the only site that isnt against the church is the official church website

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sad. You can google Buddhism and find hundreds of non- Buddhists extolling the virtues of Tao. Many people disagree with the Israeli government, but many of these same people will defend the Jewish faith. If the Mormon church is the only true church,as they claim ( at least this was the claim 20 years ago), then surly all sorts of people ( and web pages) would realize this and discuss it. Why is it that, according to you, every single item you google on “Mormon” is negative to the church , except the Mormon church site itself?

[SitNHit]

What im saying is if you truly are a person who wants to know about another persons faith or wants to gauge opinions based on true facts then spend the time to learn, then form opinions that hold some value.

You all should stop playing the "Lets stump the Mormons".

Just shows how many vain you have for it. I wouldnt think of stupid questions for a buddist just to try and make him look stupid, if I really wanted answers about that religion or wanted to ask a buddist about it I would first do my homework so I could have an intelligent discussion and not just spit out stupid comments that don't really mean much in the true belief.

___
On a side note, people who overly defend that Gay is just natural are generally people who don;t want to feel bad about the decisions they indulge in everyday.

Guilt is a good thing people. Not something you should try to make yourself immune too.
___

I don't know if taking part in this discussion was the right thing for me to do, or do I know if I did myself and the Church a diservice with my responses, one thing I am thankful for is it makes me realize that I shouldn't waiver from study and spending time on whats most important and that I should definatley know alot more then I do.

But I guess coming to a poker site to discuss this is far fetched in itself to really expect any useful discussion from a majority of people that don't really feel much of anything except that everything that has to do with faith is wrong cause it hasnt been proven by some nerd in a basement.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
This is sad.

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, especially that it seems that in genereal, Mormons are nice christians.

[ QUOTE ]
You can google Buddhism and find hundreds of non- Buddhists extolling the virtues of Tao.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but then the Tao has nothing to do with Buddhism.

[ QUOTE ]
If the Mormon church is the only true church,as they claim ( at least this was the claim 20 years ago), then surly all sorts of people ( and web pages) would realize this and discuss it. Why is it that, according to you, every single item you google on “Mormon” is negative to the church , except the Mormon church site itself?

[/ QUOTE ]

The truth hurt all those other christian sects maybe???

[yukoncpa]

You got me Midge,
I have a book right here by Lao Tsu, called, Tao te ching, and I must admit, I get tao and Buddhism mixed up. I will say, I enjoy reading both philosophies.

Yes, Mormons are nice Christians, and I've stated that over and over. But I stand by what I said earlier, that, as nice as they are, they still have some repugnant morals. And sitandhit, has not shed any light on questions asked, for example, as to why homosexuality is evil, etc. I know that other Christian sects hold these same moral's and, again,as I've stated, I find all Christian religions to be morally repugnant.

[SitNHit]

Its because being gay is defying how God intended us to be. By choosing to bed with another guy, your basically saying I dont care how I should feel, im going to indulge in this.

IM sure their are more guys that develope sick feelings for kids that dont act on it. By not acting on it they are expressing that yes its wrong to think that, and you really gotta get some help with those feelings. At least though they are not acting on it.

And you will say, well, the kids dont ask for it. but lots do, specially between the ages of 12 and 17. doesnt make it right cause they are choosing it too, thats not how we are supposed be in relationships, you should be 2 people over 18, or if underage, both within a year or two of eachother.

Making a case that homosexuality is right, your making a case that age doesnt matter either.

Its either right or wrong. Opposite sex, right. Same sex, not right.

It is wrong cause it is against what is natural. Sex is intended for creation of more human life. No 2 guys can ever make a human, so having sex with one is against the natural act of sex. Or you can just use your common sense.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
It is wrong cause it is against what is natural. Sex is intended for creation of more human life. No 2 guys can ever make a human, so having sex with one is against the natural act of sex. Or you can just use your common sense.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is not against what is natural if it occurs in nature. It does, and not only in humans by the way. The rightness or wrongness comes from your indoctrination. Evolution has no intention. Intention you can only attribute to the being you have been indoctrinated, like all other christians, to believe in, and like children are indoctrinated, some at least, to believe in father xmas. Hopefully for them, they grow out of it.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, especially that it seems that in genereal, Mormons are nice christians.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was made to realize that I may have impugned on SitnHit as being not a nice guy. From his/her posts I could not make such an assumption. I simply think that like most, if not all other christians, he is somewhat delusional when it comes to justifying his reasons to live in a certain way. And I, wholeheartedly, accept that his way of living may be the best way for him.

[SitNHit]

IF I really thought it was all predicated on my choice and that there is no consequence if I chose differently , believe me I would be doing alot of sins. But once u know something, its like you dont have that excuse anymore. Believe me, life was much easier as in just living recklessly and guiltlessly when I didnt know......

If my goal in life was too have fun and I knew there would be no eternal consequence for my actions, I would be living a completely different life which is why I Cant knock anybody who doesnt know like me.

But I am happy that I do know, just saying if I didnt, and I really believed it was just a personal choice, and not a choice much bigger then just me, it wouldnt choose this... I would just be a christian and do whatever I want or rather be an Athiest and have no guidelines, lol....

When your struck with a feeling that pierces your soul, you cant deny it

toodaloo

[SitNHit]

Just to show where im croming from heres an example of how I view things.

I wrote these in november 2005 when I just had a inspiration and a kick
just to write my feelings down. I have many others , but I thought I would
share. Just to show, I always struggle and sometimes have doubts, and that
I hope I dont come off as self rightious or non-tollerant...

Just a few poems, no need to critique thats that why i post. Just thought I would
share some thoughts just in case i come off in a way that I dont want to. :-)
__

Judge of Success

If a man can inherit, an empire or a throne,
Is he more successful, then a man who builds his own

If a man can work for everything, Leads and never follows
Is he more successful, then one who begs and borrows

Does one who knows the truth, is secure in his ways
Any better then one who wonders, cheats and disobeys

The Judge of success, the bearing on our souls
Success is the way, to the white light or big black hole
__

Rock Bottom

Every life has it, a period of destruction,
a path of terror, an evil consumption.

A loss of sense, my mind is fooled,
downfall inevitable, my choices cruel.

Pure self hatred, lacking grace,
damanging myself, while tears falldown my face.

Invisible joy, to my sad naked eyes,
where did the time go, what happened to my life.

Why can't I stop, I know it's wrong,
I want to live, be healthy and strong.

God help me, have mercy on my soul,
I know if I have faith, the truth will be told.

Every life has a bottom, an evil rock makes us sink,
when we reach satans floor, our choices are meek.

Life also has a top, from the bottom we will learn,
we can prevail and rise, and happiness we will earn.

Every life has it, a period of destruction,
We all hit a bottom, the rest is up to you.

__

Why?

Why not there be light, even throughout the night,
Why should we sleep, if theres a child still in fright.

Why would we buy, another thing to enjoy,
If theres children in this world, who don't own a toy.

Why can't we give, a dollar everyday.
10 Minutes a week, a few hours a year to say.

That we are thankful, for the ability to walk,
To even think , there are those who can't talk.

Who can't hear the birds, the sound of rain,
Mind is there vision, the color of pain.

To even think, if we couldn't see,
A blind mans prison, eyes that can't breathe.

Babies born, without legs or arms,
Yet people with them, cause so much harm.

People with riches, spend it on jewelry and cars,
Facials and face-lifts, gucci suits and expensive cigars,

While a less fortuniate brother stuggles to feed his kids,
Still tucks in his children, and thanks God for what he is.

Why would a man, so rich with things,
Be so consumed, to not thank his King.

Why would a person with physical perfection,
Be so mentally tarnished, they can never feel affection.

Why would a person who feels the truth,
Deny themselves the innocence of there youth.

Why wish pain to others, when we know how it feels,
To hope it on others because we can hardly deal.

Jealousy is a meal of unoriginality,
Wrapped in sorrow, sadness and no humility.

Why is the question, where are the answers,
Fear is the emotion, Future is the cancer.

_
A depressed thought

A depressed thought, flows through our veins,
Speaks in our words, causes so much pain.

Lingers in our minds, won't let us forget,
The sins we've commited and sadly regret.

Its goal is to multiply, make us only fail.
Dreams are made dark, Won't let us prevail.

Proudly strikes fear, takes away our chances,
Doubts we can achieve, so we are empty handed.

A depressed thought is invisible, we make it live,
A thought can be anything, depends what we give.
______

[Ralph Wiggum]

SitNHit, maybe you addressed these points (this is a long thread), but I'm about halfway through.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Masturbation is an awful sin-

True but its factual that
all people or most(male) have this problem at some time or off and on and they just say do your best not to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone I know has had this "problem" since their early teens. Shouldn't we consider that maybe there's a biological need to masterbate?

[ QUOTE ]
3) Don’t drink tea if you expect to go to the temple -

They suggest to not drink tea or coffee for your health.

[/ QUOTE ]
How about drinking green tea? It is clearly one of the most beneficial drinks in existence. It's like the panacea of liquids. Coffee is also beneficial for the liver. Alcohol is much worse for you than either, is there anything written against alcohol? It impairs both the mind &amp; body.

[ QUOTE ]

4) Homosexuality needs to be fixed -

This is correct, being homosexual is a choice and anti-christ. Meaning [censored]'s who don't accept that its wrong don't go to heaven, but they are given the chance to change.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you explain why people choose to be gay? It is worth being chastized, b/c gay sex is that good? Wouldn't it make sense that it's not a choice?


Also, I'd like to know your views on a couple things:
A) Were you raised as a Mormom?
B) Have you ever practiced another religion?
C) Do you believe in evolution?
D) Do you believe in miracles?
E) Have you studied physics?
F) What's the highest level of education you've received in math or science?
G) Have you ever tried constructing a thorough argument against your religion (perhaps an elder)?
H) What do Mormons think about atheists?

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Grammar. That pretty much tells me all I needed too know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get your head out of uranus.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, I type some slang in these forums. I even mess up sometimes on spelling. You on the other hand presented this long paragraph in defense of the mormons and misspelled half the words. I am a firm believer that religions like this prey on the uneducated. I am truly sorry they got you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get your head out of uranus.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
Well i wouldn't say the most criticized, we still have the church of Tom Cruise too pick on.

Still waiting for you to tell me where those tablets went?

[/ QUOTE ]

Grammar Nazi, is it 'too pick on' or 'to pick on'?

[justscott]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well i wouldn't say the most criticized, we still have the church of Tom Cruise too pick on.

Still waiting for you to tell me where those tablets went?

[/ QUOTE ]

Grammar Nazi, is it 'too pick on' or 'to pick on'?

[/ QUOTE ]


Uranus.

Oh and no thank your........