$50NL Folding QQ preflop

[AliasMrJones]

With the RR and all the players to act after me, I decided to play it safe and fold rather than play a big pot OOP. Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($24.50)
SB ($27.75)
BB ($25.45)
AliasMrJones ($68.05)
MP ($47.70)
CO ($73.50)

Preflop: AliasMrJones is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">AliasMrJones raises to $2</font>, MP calls $2, CO calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, AliasMrJones folds

[Warteen]

I don't like the move unless you've seen MP or CO smoothcall-overpush, or you're certain the button is only 3-betting with KK+. I much prefer a call here and assume you have the best hand on a non-AK flop. With that many players in the hand, you can almost play your QQ for set value.

[justscott]

Is a push bad here?

[EMc]

Im shoving here, but thats me. Button could be raising a large amount of hands here we crush. Im shoving AK here too.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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Is a push bad here?

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usually. I just call here and go from there.

[Warteen]

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Is a push bad here?

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It's read-dependent. If the 3-bettor is very likely to have AK+ (and will definitely call), it's pretty bad. If the guy's been 3-betting light (and you assume neither of the callers have AA or KK), a push isn't so bad for a couple reasons: 1) You take down this decent-sized pot without having to see a potentially dangerous flop. 2) It might change the way the light 3-bettor looks at your raises. Against your average opponent, though, I don't like a push. You definitely won't get a call from a worse hand (apart from AK, maybe) or a fold from a better one.

[EMc]

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Is a push bad here?

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usually. I just call here and go from there.

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Calling is probably the worst of the 3 options. RIO.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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Is a push bad here?

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usually. I just call here and go from there.

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Calling is probably the worst of the 3 options. RIO.

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didn't see the callers and stack sizes. wat does RIO mean?

[allaboutmyfetti]

eh ur right, with the overlay in the pot from callers + short button a shove is fine. my B.

[munkey]

I'll probably fold this, if it's first time he's done this, I would call in posn though.


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Im shoving here, but thats me. Button could be raising a large amount of hands here we crush. I'm shoving AK here too.

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hmmm I shove AKs here sometimes, given AK vs QQ are about even maybe I should start shoving QQ too sometimes.

tks LOL never thought of doing that, or does this apply to the more aggresive SSNL games eMc?

Edit: I didn't look at stack sizes properly. Bad munkey.
No 3betting for u tonight.

[EMc]

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Is a push bad here?

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usually. I just call here and go from there.

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Calling is probably the worst of the 3 options. RIO.

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didn't see the callers and stack sizes. wat does RIO mean?

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Reverse Implied Odds. You will not be getting any value from weaker hands and will be losing to better hands. In general this is why playing OOP in a 3 bet pot is terrible.

[Imrahil]

I just push here.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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Is a push bad here?

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usually. I just call here and go from there.

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Calling is probably the worst of the 3 options. RIO.

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didn't see the callers and stack sizes. wat does RIO mean?

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Reverse Implied Odds. You will not be getting any value from weaker hands and will be losing to better hands. In general this is why playing OOP in a 3 bet pot is terrible.

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ah. do you shove if there weren't callers behind and btn was a full stack? (i.e. the action goes - you raise, folds to btn, btn 3-bets, folds back to you) ??

[allaboutmyfetti]

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Reverse Implied Odds. You will not be getting any value from weaker hands and will be losing to better hands. In general this is why playing OOP in a 3 bet pot is terrible.

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Ok I don't fully understand using RIO as a reason for just shoving now. Any hand ahead of us is going to insta-call, hands we are tied (i.e. AK) may or may not call and all otehr hands fold ... so shoving will win the pot immediately but if villian has a better hand he is calling ... doesn't that kind of make using RIO as a reason for shoving (instead of calling) pointless?

In other words, if our hand is dominated preflop, playing post flop OOP and getting stacked by hands that dominated us when we get it in on a safe flop is no different than if we woulda just shoved pf. If we take a flop, we may be able to get a street or 2 of action out of a worse hand (JJ, TT, maybe a bet from AK).

I really don't see how RIO matters here, esp. if you're just going to push PF anyways.

[EMc]

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Reverse Implied Odds. You will not be getting any value from weaker hands and will be losing to better hands. In general this is why playing OOP in a 3 bet pot is terrible.

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Ok I don't fully understand using RIO as a reason for just shoving now. Any hand ahead of us is going to insta-call, hands we are tied (i.e. AK) may or may not call and all otehr hands fold ... so shoving will win the pot immediately but if villian has a better hand he is calling ... doesn't that kind of make using RIO as a reason for shoving (instead of calling) pointless?

In other words, if our hand is dominated preflop, playing post flop OOP and getting stacked by hands that dominated us when we get it in on a safe flop is no different than if we woulda just shoved pf. If we take a flop, we may be able to get a street or 2 of action out of a worse hand (JJ, TT, maybe a bet from AK).

I really don't see how RIO matters here, esp. if you're just going to push PF anyways.

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I mean it leads to RIO post flop. If an overcard falls you arent going to get any value, either you are beat or hands you beat are not gonna pay. If the flop is unders most hands you beat arent going to pay you much at all, but hands that beat you will take you on the express train to valuetown.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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Reverse Implied Odds. You will not be getting any value from weaker hands and will be losing to better hands. In general this is why playing OOP in a 3 bet pot is terrible.

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Ok I don't fully understand using RIO as a reason for just shoving now. Any hand ahead of us is going to insta-call, hands we are tied (i.e. AK) may or may not call and all otehr hands fold ... so shoving will win the pot immediately but if villian has a better hand he is calling ... doesn't that kind of make using RIO as a reason for shoving (instead of calling) pointless?

In other words, if our hand is dominated preflop, playing post flop OOP and getting stacked by hands that dominated us when we get it in on a safe flop is no different than if we woulda just shoved pf. If we take a flop, we may be able to get a street or 2 of action out of a worse hand (JJ, TT, maybe a bet from AK).

I really don't see how RIO matters here, esp. if you're just going to push PF anyways.

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I mean it leads to RIO post flop. If an overcard falls you arent going to get any value, either you are beat or hands you beat are not gonna pay.


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I wouldn't necessarily call this reverse-implied since we will be able to get away from our hand without getting stacked. Also, if an A falls we're way behind villians range so we don't loose that much value by folding. + even if we push pf hands that we beat aren't going to pay off.

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If the flop is unders most hands you beat arent going to pay you much at all, but hands that beat you will take you on the express train to valuetown.

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By pushing PF hands that beat us are taking us on a super-duper warp tunnel to value town anyways.

Also, at these limits, people WILL stack off JJ/TT on under flops ( i had a hand earlier where villian stacked off with 89 on a 8 high flop against my obvious overpair ... granted it wasn't a 3-bet pot but still), you over-estimate the ability of unl players to fold hands postflop.

[Hank Scorpio]

I don't think there is anything wrong with folding here OOP if this is the first time you have seen villian do this. At higher levels pushing is probably best since they're a lot more aggro there. At these levels, though, the majority of times villian will have KK or AA.

I think pushing is probably the worst option since you're only getting called by big stacks who have QQ or better. I see nothing wrong with calling here and prefer it over pushing at this limit.

[allaboutmyfetti]

EMcWilliamsModerator - you never answered my question about shoving w/ out the limpers and a full-stacked btn ... do you shove that as well (using RIO as justification) ?

[EMc]

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EMcWilliamsModerator - you never answered my question about shoving w/ out the limpers and a full-stacked btn ... do you shove that as well (using RIO as justification) ?

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Probably. I shove AK there as well too. In this example there is a chance he is squeezing here as well.

[corsakh]

I can't see pocket pairs, AK-AT and KQ folding to a push here. Its a micro, people never give you credit and call with anything.

[corsakh]

And I agree with Williams, I prefer a push here, since I much rather loose to a AA or KK preflop, then to KT post.

[allaboutmyfetti]

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EMcWilliamsModerator - you never answered my question about shoving w/ out the limpers and a full-stacked btn ... do you shove that as well (using RIO as justification) ?

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Probably. I shove AK there as well too. In this example there is a chance he is squeezing here as well.

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Stacks - full

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Hero raises to $2, folds, Button raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero pushes

With AK as well? At 50NL and below I would say there is like 0 need for this. The average 50NL player knows not to call this with JJ or worse, and at these levels there is no real need to have a wide 4-betting range as most players have a pretty tight 3-betting range. I think like 95% of the time you push and your queens get looked up it's by a hand that beats you.


Obiovusly the above situation is different than OP since there is no overlay from callers and the btn is short, and pushing there is fine.

But, in the above scenario (full stacks, h/u) I think stacking off with queens preflop here is pretty crappy (without reads of course). Did I mis-understand you last post or do you disagree?

[corsakh]

People have pretty tight 3 and 4 betting range, that is correct. However, people have unlimited bluff range and a very wide calling range.

[GtrHtr]

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Im shoving here, but thats me. Button could be raising a large amount of hands here we crush. Im shoving AK here too.

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how can hero not shove? The stacks alone make this pretty ez. Actually, the "safe" play, would be to call but who do you really want to play this hand against AI?

[homanga]

Push is fine, in general heads up with QQ I like to see a flop before pushing

[Jouster777]

Any reads?
A fold is fine if you KNOW he only has AA/KK/AK =&gt; EVpush=-$1.3

A push is fine if he does this with just about ANYTHING more than the above range:
EVpush(AQ+, QQ+)=~$0
EVpush (AQ+, TT+)=$4.5

All assuming MP and CO fold and BTN calls...though calls there probably add to EV on average. With the wider range even if BTN folds his dominated hands the EV is about the same.

I can't see considering calling unless we are IP.