$25NL 6max I played AA badly help

[Speedlimits]

<font color="blue">Villian is 23/18/4 over 250 hands. His Win$@SD is 57%</font>

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Seat 2: Villian is SB ($24.75)
Seat 3: BB ($55.45)
Seat 4: UTG ($34.15)
Seat 5: Hero is CO ($37.15)
Seat 6: Button ($24.65)
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $3.25</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">I just called pf to disguise my hand, I am also in position so a call is more attractive.</font>

Flop: J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.75, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

<font color="blue">Anyone like a bet here? I checked because I wanted to keep the pot size under control.</font>

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($6.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $4</font>, Hero calls.

<font color="blue">I actually think I should of raised here, calling opens me up to a push on the river that I can't call.</font>

River: K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($14.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB is all-in $17.5</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $17.5 returned to SB.

<font color="blue">I am almost sure I'm beat on the end. He probably had KK or AJs, more likely KK. I think I messed up on the turn (should of raised) but the flop check is good. Thoughts?</font>
Results:
Final pot: $14.75

[dd323]

I think he has AK or air enough times to call this..

Edit: Actually, probably not, I play higher usually..

[Antinome]

This is the opposite of good poker on every street. I want to be sick.

"I played the hand PERFECTLY. I slowplayed it all the way to the river and then BAM, a king comes off and I have to fold because I put him on exactly KK. Total suckout."

Well, it isn't. Just do the opposite of everything you did here and you'll be fine. I'm not joking. The opposite.

[Unknown Soldier]

I really don't think AK would play like this that often with the paired board. Any real raise and you are comitted on the turn. Could min raise as a blocking bet, but even then calling his push might be a good call. I think your line is fine. Sometimes passive is good.

Should really bet flop though, most of the time, however checking for pot control/deception is fine (if the opponent is good enough to need to use decpetion)

[Warteen]

Preflop: The best move is to 4-bet; get as much money in as possible while you're sure you're ahead.

Flop: Bet. You need very badly to take back the lead in this hand. If the villain check-pushes, you can easily fold to the likely jack.

Turn: Part of the reason for betting the flop was to be able to check behind on the turn, and encourage him to bluff the river. As played, you're only beaten by a jack (in his reasonable hand range), so you've got to call.

River: The guy 3-bet and didn't lead on the flop, which tells me he's either being sneaky or is afraid of the jack. You have way under-repped your AA, so AK or KQ is probably assuming it's good right now - he could also be trying to push you out (since you've played it like you might have a king) with QQ, TT, etc. I think you've got to call here.

[Dr_Mabuse101]

Is this Hand a joke ?
Reraise preflop. Bet flop. Raise Turn.
As played call river.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this Hand a joke ?
Reraise preflop. Bet flop. Raise Turn.
As played call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf are you talking about. Preflop is so standard.

Bet flop uhh? I get action from jacks and like QQ-KK. I think I'll check.

lol@call river. ok your advice doesn't count anymore.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: The best move is to 4-bet; get as much money in as possible while you're sure you're ahead.

Flop: Bet. You need very badly to take back the lead in this hand. If the villain check-pushes, you can easily fold to the likely jack.

Turn: Part of the reason for betting the flop was to be able to check behind on the turn, and encourage him to bluff the river. As played, you're only beaten by a jack (in his reasonable hand range), so you've got to call.

River: The guy 3-bet and didn't lead on the flop, which tells me he's either being sneaky or is afraid of the jack. You have way under-repped your AA, so AK or KQ is probably assuming it's good right now - he could also be trying to push you out (since you've played it like you might have a king) with QQ, TT, etc. I think you've got to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is a standard call in position with 100BB effective stacks. ESPECIALLY against someone this aggressive...wow horrible advice.

Bet on flop is WA/WB situation, checking flop gets me more value out of 1010,QQ,KK type hands.

Turn I have no clue where I am at, that's why I think in hindsight a raise is good here. For value.

It's pretty obvious I'm beat on the river so fold is so easy.

You don't call light against people with Win%@SD 50%+ for the most part. Guaranteed he had KK here though.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the opposite of good poker on every street. I want to be sick.

"I played the hand PERFECTLY. I slowplayed it all the way to the river and then BAM, a king comes off and I have to fold because I put him on exactly KK. Total suckout."

Well, it isn't. Just do the opposite of everything you did here and you'll be fine. I'm not joking. The opposite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok pf is standard. flop is debatable, turn is probably a raise. River is a fold most likely.

Go back to 10nl.

[Unknown Soldier]

sorry speedlimits, but there is nothing standard about calling a raise w/ AA, don't get me wrong it's fine to do for decpetion, but you should re-raise most of the time. If the turn is a raise then the flop is a bet, do you see why?

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry speedlimits, but there is nothing standard about calling a raise w/ AA, don't get me wrong it's fine to do for decpetion, but you should re-raise most of the time. If the turn is a raise then the flop is a bet, do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I am betting for value and raising for value? Why should I 4bet here and scare someone off AK/JJ?

This EXACT situation happened today. It was raised, I have A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif and I 3bet. The guy 4bet me and I laid down AK. He showed AA. He lost so much value there.

I think it is way more EV+ to call people's 3bets IN POSITION when you have AA/KK when you have 100BB effective stacks or less. You want them to pick up a draw or top pair on the flop and get it all in with you as a 2-1, 3-1. 4-1 favorite.

Winning 67% of $50 is way more EV than winning 100% of $6.

I still don't agree that that in order to raise his smallish turn bet you need to bet flop. Checking the flop was done for a few reasons.

1) Deception against an aggressive opponent
2) Pot Control against a Jack
3) Get more Value out of smaller pockets.

[barryc83]

Yes I like the pf call against this type of opponent. Checking for pot control is horrible here, you are in a RR pot and you have the nuts. Checking for deception is a different story. His check on the flop seems fishy to me. He'd bet w/ AK here almost always IMO but sometimes I see villains get scared with AK on paired flops thinking you'll call with any pp. If you think he flopped trips with AJ I think you're seeing monsters. I like a bet on the flop actually as I think he will c/r you a lot. As played raise turn for value, you have the [censored] nuts get your stack in there. River, damn thats either a really bad card for you or a really good one. He's got AK or KK, take your pick, probably a good fold though. You underepped your hand so bad here.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I like the pf call against this type of opponent. Checking for pot control is horrible here, you are in a RR pot and you have the nuts. Checking for deception is a different story. His check on the flop seems fishy to me. He'd bet w/ AK here almost always IMO but sometimes I see villains get scared with AK on paired flops thinking you'll call with any pp. If you think he flopped trips with AJ I think you're seeing monsters. I like a bet on the flop actually as I think he will c/r you a lot. As played raise turn for value, you have the [censored] nuts get your stack in there. River, damn thats either a really bad card for you or a really good one. He's got AK or KK, take your pick, probably a good fold though. You underepped your hand so bad here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, totally agree with pf. A bet on the flop is definitely solid too. If I bet flop I think QQ-KK raises me and then I can push.

As played yeah I should have raised turn, definitely messed that up. As far as whether he has KK or AK KK is more likely from a pure statistic standpoint.

[Shaqalicious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: The best move is to 4-bet; get as much money in as possible while you're sure you're ahead.

Flop: Bet. You need very badly to take back the lead in this hand. If the villain check-pushes, you can easily fold to the likely jack.

Turn: Part of the reason for betting the flop was to be able to check behind on the turn, and encourage him to bluff the river. As played, you're only beaten by a jack (in his reasonable hand range), so you've got to call.

River: The guy 3-bet and didn't lead on the flop, which tells me he's either being sneaky or is afraid of the jack. You have way under-repped your AA, so AK or KQ is probably assuming it's good right now - he could also be trying to push you out (since you've played it like you might have a king) with QQ, TT, etc. I think you've got to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is a standard call in position with 100BB effective stacks. ESPECIALLY against someone this aggressive...wow horrible advice.

Bet on flop is WA/WB situation, checking flop gets me more value out of 1010,QQ,KK type hands.

Turn I have no clue where I am at, that's why I think in hindsight a raise is good here. For value.

It's pretty obvious I'm beat on the river so fold is so easy.

You don't call light against people with Win%@SD 50%+ for the most part. Guaranteed he had KK here though.

[/ QUOTE ]


so you asked for advice so you could in turn give everyone else your own poorly reasoned advice? its 25NL, people are idiots and call 4-bets with all sorts of crap. playing passive is not how to beat these games.

[BukNaked36]

"$25NL 6max I played AA badly help"

That's your thread title then you tell everyone they don't know what they're doing?

Majority of the time raise preflop. Hope he comes over the top and you get all in vs. AK, KK, QQ.

As played, preflop call is OK.

Flop - bet $6 - I stack off against AJ here. You also stack QQ &amp; KK here a lot of the time with no A on the flop

Turn - try to get the rest in

You see JJ and you automatically assume AJ. You see a K and you assume KK. What do you need to see to play your AA against? A rainbow board under 9 with no str8 possibilities? Although he might have raised 22 for deception and have quads on the turn... If Mr. 57% has you this freaked out, you should find a different table.

[Warteen]

[ QUOTE ]

so you asked for advice so you could in turn give everyone else your own poorly reasoned advice? its 25NL, people are idiots and call 4-bets with all sorts of crap. playing passive is not how to beat these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Speedlimits, you asked for advice and then took the bits and pieces that backed up your own admitted misplay of the hand. 4-betting with AA is standard and not horrible advice. I gave you examples of hands that the villain is pushing with on the river that you had beat, as did others. You shouldn't take a rude tone with people who you've asked for help if you decide you disagree with them. If you're going to do that, why are you even posting here?

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: The best move is to 4-bet; get as much money in as possible while you're sure you're ahead.

Flop: Bet. You need very badly to take back the lead in this hand. If the villain check-pushes, you can easily fold to the likely jack.

Turn: Part of the reason for betting the flop was to be able to check behind on the turn, and encourage him to bluff the river. As played, you're only beaten by a jack (in his reasonable hand range), so you've got to call.

River: The guy 3-bet and didn't lead on the flop, which tells me he's either being sneaky or is afraid of the jack. You have way under-repped your AA, so AK or KQ is probably assuming it's good right now - he could also be trying to push you out (since you've played it like you might have a king) with QQ, TT, etc. I think you've got to call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is a standard call in position with 100BB effective stacks. ESPECIALLY against someone this aggressive...wow horrible advice.

Bet on flop is WA/WB situation, checking flop gets me more value out of 1010,QQ,KK type hands.

Turn I have no clue where I am at, that's why I think in hindsight a raise is good here. For value.

It's pretty obvious I'm beat on the river so fold is so easy.

You don't call light against people with Win%@SD 50%+ for the most part. Guaranteed he had KK here though.

[/ QUOTE ]


so you asked for advice so you could in turn give everyone else your own poorly reasoned advice? its 25NL, people are idiots and call 4-bets with all sorts of crap. playing passive is not how to beat these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

4bet pf isn't the most EV play against this time of opponent.

The flop is debatable for check/bet. I actually like in bet in hindsight, pushing turn is good too.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

so you asked for advice so you could in turn give everyone else your own poorly reasoned advice? its 25NL, people are idiots and call 4-bets with all sorts of crap. playing passive is not how to beat these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Speedlimits, you asked for advice and then took the bits and pieces that backed up your own admitted misplay of the hand. 4-betting with AA is standard and not horrible advice. I gave you examples of hands that the villain is pushing with on the river that you had beat, as did others. You shouldn't take a rude tone with people who you've asked for help if you decide you disagree with them. If you're going to do that, why are you even posting here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol@rude tone. If anyone gave a rude tone it was the responders and not the OP. Anyways, what are the benefits of 4betting besides 100% defining your hand? Especially in position?

Calling a 3bet in position against an aggro opponents is much more EV.

[JJBuffone]

Re-raise preflop, bet the flop, check the turn, call/value bet the river. That is the line I would take.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
"$25NL 6max I played AA badly help"

That's your thread title then you tell everyone they don't know what they're doing?

Majority of the time raise preflop. Hope he comes over the top and you get all in vs. AK, KK, QQ.

As played, preflop call is OK.

Flop - bet $6 - I stack off against AJ here. You also stack QQ &amp; KK here a lot of the time with no A on the flop

Turn - try to get the rest in

You see JJ and you automatically assume AJ. You see a K and you assume KK. What do you need to see to play your AA against? A rainbow board under 9 with no str8 possibilities? Although he might have raised 22 for deception and have quads on the turn... If Mr. 57% has you this freaked out, you should find a different table.

[/ QUOTE ]

YEah i will admit I played it way too passively. Do you usually 4bet with AA as a standard line against unknowns?

[Hank Scorpio]

Note to Self: SpeedLimit is a great debater!

[EMc]

speedlimits is trying to spark a debate here. HE shouldnt just blindly take the advice given. He should question it and also explain why he did what he did.

[Sh@i'tan]

umm for those of you who are arguing 4bet PF with AA, what hands do you 4bet pf with vs a solid aggressive player? PF call is perfectly standard and i hardly ever 4bet anymore in position unless it vs super light 3 bettors(very doubtful you encounter them at 25NL)who will call off PF with weaker holdings, i.e. i have KK and they call my push with TT-QQ/AK.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
speedlimits is trying to spark a debate here. HE shouldnt just blindly take the advice given. He should question it and also explain why he did what he did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I like arguing/debating so if I come off as aggressive/rude it is not my intention. I thought this hand was pretty interesting because a few lines can be taken and there is no clear cut path to maximize your EV.

Checking the flop here is decent because 1010,QQ,KK all will bet the turn into you. OTOH most villians would expect you to check a Jack and raise turn when villian bets so betting might actually have an edge.

If you bet flop here Villian might raise (esp. aggro opponents) with QQ-KK and you can push over him. Someone else stated this already and I actually think it is a pretty solid approach.

So call 3bet pf. Bet flop, if c/r we are all in. If just called I am betting turn/raising villians turn bet.

Do people like this line as opposed to 4betting pf? I think 4betting pf turns your hand face up and only KK will give you action (note: villian is competent).

[corsakh]

Dude, you slow played AA to the max, and folded on a King which did not change anything on the board. Where is the logic?

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you slow played AA to the max, and folded on a King which did not change anything on the board. Where is the logic?

[/ QUOTE ]

The king changes a lot of things actually. My logic is in the thread so please read it before you post mindless responses that don't benefit anyone?

[Triggerle]

Pre-flop depends on your style, too. I like to play ABC Poker, which means I will have to lay down a lot of my pf raising range to a 3-bet. In order to make my play less exploitable by aggressive opponents I therefore need to come over the top of pre-flop 3-bets sometimes or they start 3-betting every time I raise. This is why I would 4-bet pre-flop. Making a proper raise or just pushing depends on how I view my opponent. I often just push and get called by AK, JJ+ (&lt;- because they put me on AK) or even retarded crap. Somehow AI either triggers the gambool in many opponents or makes them think I could be bluffing.

Assuming that I somehow feel the need to just call his 3-bet I would c-bet/push most flops. There might be some extra value (not much IMHO) in playing it slower but I feel that there is value for later hands in making villian feel that he's potentially risking his whole stack if he makes plays at me.

Edit: Notice how my post excludes any LOLing or calling advice "mindless" and take that as an example. Nobody likes to help someone who berates them for advice they don't like.

[corsakh]

The only way a King changes something on a JJ22K rainbow board is if the villain has KJ. Or KK that is even more ridiculous. If you are so damn good you can deduce villains range to exactly two holdings, what do you need our advice for? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[justscott]

OK i have a question here don't jump on me i really wish too understand the reason for wanting too not reraise PF. You raised with Aces 4 times the blinds and get reraised to 12 x blind. So this really limits the hands here. If he has KK and you reraise hes going to the felt at least i think. If he has QQ he may go to the felt PF and if it's a safe board you may felt him unless A or K flop. If he has AK and nothing comes you are most likely not feltin him on the flop. He could on a slim chance have JJ or AJ or AQ but all three hands seem to me that you unless they hit hard you are not getting anymore money than what you got preflop, but if they hit then you get felted. Doesn't it seem better too go ahead and get the money in preflop considering how much he reraised you PF??

[lynxman73]

the reason for not wanting to reraise is that either the villain is insane here and hero is planning to call down 99 percent of the time no matter what or hero made a very big mistake by not reraising because perhaps hero felt he had position so he/she didn't want to blow villain out of the pot

[jdefoe]

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop is a standard call in position with 100BB effective stacks. ESPECIALLY against someone this aggressive...wow horrible advice.

Bet on flop is WA/WB situation, checking flop gets me more value out of 1010,QQ,KK type hands.

Turn I have no clue where I am at, that's why I think in hindsight a raise is good here. For value.

It's pretty obvious I'm beat on the river so fold is so easy.

You don't call light against people with Win%@SD 50%+ for the most part. Guaranteed he had KK here though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet pot on flop here, and check turn, and if he checks river, I fire out a value bet, if he bets into me, I just call. Bet/folding turn is also fine

[Mal_Pais]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet on flop is WA/WB situation, checking flop gets me more value out of 1010,QQ,KK type hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read the whole thread, and kept coming back to the above quote. If I put my opponents on those hands, I reraise preflop and fold TT and get a call from QQ, and if Villian has KK, we get the money in preflop.

As played, raise the turn.

[KungFuManchu]

alright heres the dealio, you can pretty much figure out how to play this hand on ur own. 1st reraise pf pretty often especially at these limits. second on the flop say we bet, as we should, btw if hes checking and weak no way u are making much money here, but often u will get at least a flop call from most pairs that he could be reraising along w possible Aq, Ak type hands....anyway say he c/r u and has either QQ, Kk, jj, or AJs (if he has os AJ u have to discount it a fair bit imo) that leaves it 12 to 2 your favor, even taking or discounting QQ u are still ahead here. id bet flop, see what happens on turn, prolly bet unless u honesty think he wont call.

[Sean Fraley]

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS NOT INTENDED AS INSULT, JUST CRITIQUE BASED ON THIS HAND

Hero needs to 4-bet AA preflop, because if the play of this hand is any indication he plays poorly postflop. Against a tight and rather aggressive player who has been observed to win over half of the hands he goes to showdown with, hero's situation looks increasingly grim the more time he spends with villain postflop.

Hero has failed to bet or raise when needed, and on the river assumes the only hands that play aggressively are ones that beat him, instead of considering that a winning TAG will view weakness on the flop and river as reason to kick hero's face in on the river. As far as I can tell, villain sensed that the two jacks on the flop caused hero to lose confidence in his holding, and that hero would crumple under heavy pressure. He was right.

The solution here is for hero to start working heavily on his postflop skills, posting here regularly, giving careful consideration to the advice held in responses to his posts. Eventually, he will develop strong postflop skills. Until then, play big pairs hard preflop and be content to win the amount of the initial raise.

[Nologo]

I don't see how you can fold this river after slowplaying your aces this much. He likely puts you on a smaller PP and thinks his K is good when he hits. This is the problem that slowplaying presents you with sometimes, because you've underrepresented your hand so much, you don't have a real idea what the actual strength of his hand is, only what it is relative to the range you're portraying, so you're forced to make some questionable calls sometimes.

[lynxman73]

Definitely agree with Sean. OP why did you just call Villain's reraise?

[homanga]

this is a joke im sure