Defending Your Blinds

[Speedlimits]

<font color="blue"> Assume 100BB effective stacks and Button is unknown</font>

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $1</font>, Hero ?

<font color="green">Please give a reason for why you chose either fold/call/raise</font>

[betafemale]

Most people would call it weak but I do not care. I would fold here. I know I can get my money in in better spots than playing against an unknown out of position.

[Vyse]

If his blind stealing is 25% or higher I repop to 5.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Most people would call it weak but I do not care. I would fold here. I know I can get my money in in better spots than playing against an unknown out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

All 3 options are viable but yeah I think folding is probably the worst option.

[barryc83]

What do you mean by button is unknown? Is this his first orbit at the table? If this guy is raising his button liberally and I know it I'm def repopping. This is also dependent on my current table image. If I've been super aggro lately and people are starting to think I'm FOS I'll just fold. Playing AJs OOP against people who cant fold sucks. If its the guys first orbit at the table and I've never seen him before I'll fold.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
If his blind stealing is 25% or higher I repop to 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Button is unknown though so no reads.

with no reads I repop a button raise here usualy. Or you can fold and wait to get a read on villain. I usualy asume a player is bad until otherwise proven.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If his blind stealing is 25% or higher I repop to 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Button is unknown though so no reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably repopping anyway. I don't repop if it's a good TAG or a calling station. YOu have to at least call.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by button is unknown? Is this his first orbit at the table? If this guy is raising his button liberally and I know it I'm def repopping. This is also dependent on my current table image. If I've been super aggro lately and people are starting to think I'm FOS I'll just fold. Playing AJs OOP against people who cant fold sucks. If its the guys first orbit at the table and I'v
e never seen him before I'll fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah Unknown is a little vague. Basically you have no PAHUD stats on him and he hasn't stolen the button before.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
with no reads I repop a button raise here usualy. Or you can fold and wait to get a read on villain. I usualy asume a player is bad until otherwise proven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think raising&gt;folding&gt;calling?

[matrix]

fold.

this is NL blinds don't matter (unless we are stealing them)

if villain is raising my blind lots THEN I'll play back but not until and AJ is garbage.

calling sucks - where can we get value unless we flop a flush/straight or great draw - and how often do we flop one of those compared to totally whiffing?

whats the plan if an ace flops?

easy fold.

I think calling here is a leak - raising is an option if we have a read that buttons range OTB is wiiiiiiiiide (and he's an unknown so we have no clue about that)

save yourself the headaches and just fold these preflop.

Playing OOP *sucks*

[barryc83]

I'm never calling here though. I play 50nl and I don't really defend my blinds that much. Its good to do every once in a while with a less than great holding just to mix it up, but basically the button/CO open raiser will start calling you and playing OOP sucks, especially with [censored] hands.

[betafemale]

Exactly what I thought! Although my answer was shorter /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Unknown Soldier]

oh dear, oh dear. The nittyness knows no limits! Call and just some play some poker, think about the buttons rasing range. You're crushing it. There is only one type of player you could argue folding this against and that's a skilled LAG. Not too many of those at micro stakes though.

[Jay Riall]

I prefer calling since I'm confident in my ability to play oop now. AJs is a nice hand and is ahead of the range of anybodies button open. Raising is an option but I wouldn't do this at 25NL because no-one ever folds and I don't want to take this hand oop in a big pot vs. someone who doesn't fold. I would reserve raising to TAGs. Folding is fine also obviously.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
fold.

this is NL blinds don't matter (unless we are stealing them)

if villain is raising my blind lots THEN I'll play back but not until and AJ is garbage.

calling sucks - where can we get value unless we flop a flush/straight or great draw - and how often do we flop one of those compared to totally whiffing?

whats the plan if an ace flops?

easy fold.

I think calling here is a leak - raising is an option if we have a read that buttons range OTB is wiiiiiiiiide (and he's an unknown so we have no clue about that)

save yourself the headaches and just fold these preflop.

Playing OOP *sucks*

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't AJs (suited does matter) be ahead of a random button's rasing range? I actually think it is between folding/raising and calling is the WORST option. I like to 3bet these for a few reasons.

1) It shows the button your aggro and he might raise on the button less.

2) A cbet on the flop will take down the pot the majority of time.

Note though that AJo I would fold. I do think it is that close.

Matrix, AQo you raise I presume?

[Imrahil]

There's this guy who like 8 tables and plays 37/30 or something crazy like that. His steal % is around 66 so I've started raising his 3xbb raises liberally from the SB and BB.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
oh dear, oh dear. The nittyness knows no limits! Call and just some play some poker, think about the buttons rasing range. You're crushing it. There is only one type of player you could argue folding this against and that's a skilled LAG. Not too many of those at micro stakes though.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I do agree that calling here can be very profitable, most learning players (and let's face it, that's what we are here at uNL) would do better playing too nitty vs calling loose.

Having said that, the average player at our level is playing too loosely, so I do call here fairly often. But with my limited post-flop skills I have to be careful to not run into difficult situations; those are the ones where we learning players make the most - and most expensive - mistakes.

[matrix]

nah I fold AQ as well here to an unknown button raise.


vs an unknown my raise range in the SB is AK and TT+ I call with 22-99 and fold everything else. Call me a nit I care not.

Yeah we crush his range most likely now - but we have no clue what kind of hand we are up against after the flop comes precisely because his range is so damn large.

it's 25NL - these guys call way too much so we need to make the best hand and showit down most often to win the pot. A few times he has AQ or AK and we are killed and pay him a hefty chunk of our stack - all the dinky pots we win when he has nada don't make up for this in the long run.

at $100NL+ (and perhaps a few times at 50's I'll 3bet) if we're the BB and are closing the action (very important) calling is OK quite often once we have a read on the button.

What type of player is he postflop? whats his calling range on a ragged board if we lead into him with a PSB on the turn after calling his almost inevitable flop CB?? if an Ace flops will he take AT to the felt?

vs an unknown we know none of this stuff - and all of it could sway our decision here.

Stop thinking about your cards so much and focus more on the players you are playing.

Don't think " I can raise with AJs but not AJo" think "I can raise this guy and then win the pot on the flop 70% of the time no matter what flops" or "I can call pre and flop vs this guy and lead the turn and he'll always fold without a top hand"

Calling in these spots is fine IF you know the villain and IF you think you're a better player post. Given the table stakes and calibre of opposition (people generally call too much and overplay bad hands) it's not worth the marginal EV.

Play pots in position with big hands and value bet hard.
Play less marginal hands OOP - especially when as in the OP we are the SB and might well end up OOP to 2 villains.

What happens if we call pre and the BB calls pre? - usually people check to the pfr so we check BB checks and then button bets - now what? What kind of player is the BB?? will he raise if we call? will he overcall again or just fold?

I think we are setting ourselves up for trouble if make loose calls preflop and thisleads to us bleeding away 6-8BB on a hand often which decimates our winrate in the long run.

also Why do you want to make the button raise less often?

[jonyy6788]

I either raise/fold. If he's a TAGish type player I raise. If he's a nit or a 30/5 donk, I fold. I hate playing OOP and AJs is the ghey.

The resteal becomes especially profitable at NL50+ and it also throws your opponenets off guard when u resteal with AA against their QQ.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
While I do agree that calling here can be very profitable, most learning players (and let's face it, that's what we are here at uNL) would do better playing too nitty vs calling loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. There are quite a few good players that post here though... (at least I think so anyway!)


[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, the average player at our level is playing too loosely, so I do call here fairly often. But with my limited post-flop skills I have to be careful to not run into difficult situations; those are the ones where we learning players make the most - and most expensive - mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

good follow up.


That's the only good argument anyone has given for folding here, imo. If you aren't comfortable post flop AJ oop can get you in alot of trouble. If that's the case though, you should deffinitely try to improve becasue AJs is more then strong enough to play in this situation.

Against a TAG: you get added profit from floating/raising his cbet.

against tight passive: you'll be able to bluff him out of most pots anyway when you don't hit. And if you do and he has you dominated you won't lose a large pot because he won't bet it

against loose passive: value bet hard when you hit

against loose aggressive (bad): c/c all the way if you hit, you'll make alot of money and will be ahead most of the time.


This could be a fold against the two passive players if they are ridiculusly passive, because this raise means that his range is beating you. However, their post flop play is so bad that it probably will still be a good call.

[betafemale]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't AJs (suited does matter) be ahead of a random button's rasing range?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I see it: poker is not about having the best start hand, it is about winning in the long run. The fact that we do not know the villian, our pos and we have a person after us to act means more.

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
I either raise/fold. If he's a TAGish type player I raise. If he's a nit or a 30/5 donk, I fold. I hate playing OOP and AJs is the ghey.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I have stats on villain I'll decide which is best.

But in this example we'Re up against an unknown.
That's why I'll rather call because I can't effectively narrow down his range postflop.
More importantly, I want to exercise pot control. My hand is a typical TP type of hand, if I start bloating it preflop, I'm setting myself up to get into very difficult situations. Sure, the extra equity of hitting a flush is great, but besides that I have very few strong hands that I could hit that like to play big pots.

[betafemale]

[ QUOTE ]
nah I fold AQ as well here to an unknown button raise.


vs an unknown my raise range in the SB is AK and TT+ I call with 22-99 and fold everything else. Call me a nit I care not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our games seem very alike. I also have no problem folding AQ here if it was the same situation. Most people overvalue their cards and think too little about the other things going on in the hand.

[redCashion]

The only way I call here is if it's an aggro loose/bad table with an early raise and 2 or 3 callers. Of course I would have to play it cautiously, but in these kinds of tables I'm looking for any kind of hand to get into pots with.

I 3bet light pretty rarely at NL50, maybe once or twice in a session but this hand is definitely a candidate if your button raiser has a 20% preflop raise stat or higher.

[Leviathan101]

I'm a LAG and against an unknown I still fold here. I need a read before I can make this kind of play. If I repop and get called, I have no idea what his hand range is. I don't know if he only calls with PP and AQ+ or whether he calls with anything he raises with. Their is something to be said for pressing every +EV edge you can get, but until I am a postflop master (not happening anytime soon) I really don't think reraise or calling AJs vs an unknown is +ev here.

Give me any kind of read on the type of player, and everything changes.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
The only way I call here is if it's an aggro loose/bad table with an early raise and 2 or 3 callers. Of course I would have to play it cautiously, but in these kinds of tables I'm looking for any kind of hand to get into pots with.

I 3bet light pretty rarely at NL50, maybe once or twice in a session but this hand is definitely a candidate if your button raiser has a 20% preflop raise stat or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I like 3betting here the most. At these limits people can't usually handle a 3bet +cbet.

[ajmargarine]

"defending your blinds" = myth. When you start to think you have to get involved OOP because you were forced to post a blind, you're in a poker bad place.

As for AJs: All three options are OK. If I had to rate them:

3b &gt; call &gt; fold.

If you 3b, almost always cb.
If you call, lead some flops that you miss completely. As long as you are leading your made hands as well from time to time.

[uuser]

[ QUOTE ]
I usualy asume a player is bad until otherwise proven.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
nah I fold AQ as well here to an unknown button raise.


vs an unknown my raise range in the SB is AK and TT+ I call with 22-99 and fold everything else. Call me a nit I care not.

Yeah we crush his range most likely now - but we have no clue what kind of hand we are up against after the flop comes precisely because his range is so damn large.

it's 25NL - these guys call way too much so we need to make the best hand and showit down most often to win the pot. A few times he has AQ or AK and we are killed and pay him a hefty chunk of our stack - all the dinky pots we win when he has nada don't make up for this in the long run.

at $100NL+ (and perhaps a few times at 50's I'll 3bet) if we're the BB and are closing the action (very important) calling is OK quite often once we have a read on the button.

What type of player is he postflop? whats his calling range on a ragged board if we lead into him with a PSB on the turn after calling his almost inevitable flop CB?? if an Ace flops will he take AT to the felt?

vs an unknown we know none of this stuff - and all of it could sway our decision here.

Stop thinking about your cards so much and focus more on the players you are playing.

Don't think " I can raise with AJs but not AJo" think "I can raise this guy and then win the pot on the flop 70% of the time no matter what flops" or "I can call pre and flop vs this guy and lead the turn and he'll always fold without a top hand"

Calling in these spots is fine IF you know the villain and IF you think you're a better player post. Given the table stakes and calibre of opposition (people generally call too much and overplay bad hands) it's not worth the marginal EV.

Play pots in position with big hands and value bet hard.
Play less marginal hands OOP - especially when as in the OP we are the SB and might well end up OOP to 2 villains.

What happens if we call pre and the BB calls pre? - usually people check to the pfr so we check BB checks and then button bets - now what? What kind of player is the BB?? will he raise if we call? will he overcall again or just fold?

I think we are setting ourselves up for trouble if make loose calls preflop and thisleads to us bleeding away 6-8BB on a hand often which decimates our winrate in the long run.

also Why do you want to make the button raise less often?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really about being a nit, being tag/lag whatever you call yourself. It's about maximizing your expected value on each and every play. Marginal EV matters, anything that makes your EV more positive in the long run is the correct decision.

[ QUOTE ]
Stop thinking about your cards so much and focus more on the players you are playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well like I said, no reads. He just sat down so the cards/position are all I have to work with.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't think " I can raise with AJs but not AJo" think "I can raise this guy and then win the pot on the flop 70% of the time no matter what flops" or "I can call pre and flop vs this guy and lead the turn and he'll always fold without a top hand"

[/ QUOTE ]

Well again, read based. Your whole argument is telling me how I should think/play based on reads when I have none.
And AJs has almost 6% more real equity than AJo so mathematically it would be correct to fold AJo. Poker is all math, please don't kid yourself.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens if we call pre and the BB calls pre? - usually people check to the pfr so we check BB checks and then button bets - now what? What kind of player is the BB?? will he raise if we call? will he overcall again or just fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

All these hypotheticals can happen in any hand. You shouldn't not make a play because it could leave you in a tough spot, you should make a play because it makes the most profit. It seems you have a tendency to avoid making hard decisions for a small EV lose. Poker is about making decisions, both easy and hard.

[ QUOTE ]
I think we are setting ourselves up for trouble if make loose calls preflop and thisleads to us bleeding away 6-8BB on a hand often which decimates our winrate in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't favor calling. I favor 3betting.

[ QUOTE ]
also Why do you want to make the button raise less often?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the button is the single most powerful position in poker? When someone raises from the button it is difficult to play against, and even more so once they start abusing the position. Make sense?


Some pokerstove calculations show the following:


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.607% 33.61% 01.00% 2820166172 83488280.00 { random }
Hand 1: 65.393% 64.40% 01.00% 5403146868 83488280.00 { AJs }

AJs is a 2-1 favorite over a random hand.

Let's give the unknown button a modest range.

Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

How much of this range can stand a 3bet? Not much.

Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

We also have to consider the BB, let's say he calls with 10% of the hands as well (reasonable). Not to mention it is even more likely he doesnt have AK/AQ because we hold an ace.

So we immediately make $1.25 80% of the time.

Say we raise the standard 3.5x times his raise.

The button/BB will call 20% of the time so we lose

3.5x.2x.7= .49 cents

But make 1.25x.8= $1.00

so we gain a net of .51 cents by 3betting.

Even IF you opened his calling range up considerably, the 3bet would still be profitable. In fact, we would make more money by 3betting pf and giving up on any flop that didn't hit us hard than by folding outright.

[IsaacAsimov]

I personally would almost always rr AJs against a btn opener.
I do agree that poker isn't alyways only about the cards, but it is clear that we have the equity edge against a rdm btn opener as stated. Therfore playing AJs oop becomes less of a problem. Calling isn't an option for me. I have played NL 25 (FTP, PTY) and I do find ppl respecting 3-bets more at lower stakes than at higher stakes at times.
Taking down the flop pf + taking it down with a cbet on the flop + possibility of hitting a hand make rr for me the right play here.

[IsaacAsimov]

@ speedlimits

It is true what you say about 3betting pf and folding any flop, but you have to consider that a lot of players aren't confident with their post flop play OOP and therefore could easily be loosing a lot more than the dollar they make by openfolding the flop (which probably won't happen).

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
"defending your blinds" = myth. When you start to think you have to get involved OOP because you were forced to post a blind, you're in a poker bad place.

As for AJs: All three options are OK. If I had to rate them:

3b &gt; call &gt; fold.

If you 3b, almost always cb.
If you call, lead some flops that you miss completely. As long as you are leading your made hands as well from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I agree. Also when I titled the post "Defending Your Blinds," it was more to get people's attention and less about defending the small % of money that you are forced to put into the pot.

[tufat23]

i 3-bet 99%, but thats how i roll. i certainly dont consider folding

[Warteen]

3-bet all day long. Lead any flop and take it down preflop or on the flop everytime he doesn't have high pockets or flop a monster (in which case you get away from it and improve your image against a new villain).

[kazana]

Raising range:
[ QUOTE ]
Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the nitpicking, but:

You said his raising hands consist of 20 hands (not sure if I've counted correctly the way you've done it).
So, if he's calling with that 16 hand (again, the way you counted it) range, it's not automatically +EV.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising range:
[ QUOTE ]
Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the nitpicking, but:

You said his raising hands consist of 20 hands (not sure if I've counted correctly the way you've done it).
So, if he's calling with that 16 hand (again, the way you counted it) range, it's not automatically +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 16 hands. If he is calling with less hands it is more EV to 3bet.

[Unknown Soldier]

the action doesn't end pf guys.....

[kazana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising range:
[ QUOTE ]
Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the nitpicking, but:

You said his raising hands consist of 20 hands (not sure if I've counted correctly the way you've done it).
So, if he's calling with that 16 hand (again, the way you counted it) range, it's not automatically +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 16 hands. If he is calling with less hands it is more EV to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
3 AKs
6 AKo
3 AQs
6 x 11 22-TT, QQ
3 x 2 JJ, AA
==============
= a lot more than 16?

Or let me explain the other way around:
He's <u>not</u> calling with T9s+, AT, AJ, AQo, which, according to your logic, would be 9 out of 169.

16 / (16+9) &gt;&gt; 10%

Edit: Counting is difficult. fixed.

[Leviathan101]

[ QUOTE ]

AJs is a 2-1 favorite over a random hand.

Let's give the unknown button a modest range.

Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

How much of this range can stand a 3bet? Not much.

Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

We also have to consider the BB, let's say he calls with 10% of the hands as well (reasonable). Not to mention it is even more likely he doesnt have AK/AQ because we hold an ace.

So we immediately make $1.25 80% of the time.

Say we raise the standard 3.5x times his raise.

The button/BB will call 20% of the time so we lose

3.5x.2x.7= .49 cents

But make 1.25x.8= $1.00

so we gain a net of .51 cents by 3betting.

Even IF you opened his calling range up considerably, the 3bet would still be profitable. In fact, we would make more money by 3betting pf and giving up on any flop that didn't hit us hard than by folding outright.

[/ QUOTE ]

But how you can assume that is his range in calling or 4 betting? You have NO IDEA what he calls with. The key issue here is that villian is a unknown. Maybe he calls everything that he raises with. Maybe he does only call with AK,AQs,22+. The problem is when he does call, which one is it? You don't know. Suddenly you are playing a hand that can very much be dominated, but could also be a reasonable favorite. But, when he calls how do you know if he has AK or QTs? So when you lead the ace and he calls you, where do you stand? You don't know. If there is a T48 flop and you c-bet and he calls? Most of the time a C-bet will work, but when you make a real hand and get action you have no idea where you stand. He could be a calling station, and floats your c-bet in a reraised pot. Then again he might be a nit and can't fold he QQ on that King high flop cause he can't give up his good hands. The problem here is that you have no idea what his actions mean since you have no experience. So I feel you can't assume any reasonable hand range here. This is 25nl and frankly you have no idea what they are capable of. You can't assume their raising range is "modest." If it's wider they may very well call you with QTs because "it's suited, have to play it." But the problem is you can't tell which one it is. This is the problem with a complete lack of reads. You have no idea.

However, all that aside...
It's probably +EV to 3-bet here if you play very well postflop. But for most players at our caliber, I don't think it's +ev to 3 bet here against an unknown.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising range:
[ QUOTE ]
Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the nitpicking, but:

You said his raising hands consist of 20 hands (not sure if I've counted correctly the way you've done it).
So, if he's calling with that 16 hand (again, the way you counted it) range, it's not automatically +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 16 hands. If he is calling with less hands it is more EV to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
3 AKs
6 AKo
3 AQs
6 x 11 22-TT, QQ
3 x 2 JJ, AA
==============
= a lot more than 16?

Or let me explain the other way around:
He's <u>not</u> calling with T9s+, AT, AJ, AQo, which, according to your logic, would be 9 out of 169.

16 / (16+9) &gt;&gt; 10%

Edit: Counting is difficult. fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it's more than 16 hands my fault. I meant 16 types out of the 169 starting hands.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raising range:
[ QUOTE ]
Say any pocket pair/910s and up/A10o-AKo.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Say he will call with AKs,AK,AQs,22+. (mistake to call with small pckts)

16 hands out of 169. So less than 10%? Somewhere between 9-10% of the time he will call our 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the nitpicking, but:

You said his raising hands consist of 20 hands (not sure if I've counted correctly the way you've done it).
So, if he's calling with that 16 hand (again, the way you counted it) range, it's not automatically +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 16 hands. If he is calling with less hands it is more EV to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
3 AKs
6 AKo
3 AQs
6 x 11 22-TT, QQ
3 x 2 JJ, AA
==============
= a lot more than 16?

Or let me explain the other way around:
He's <u>not</u> calling with T9s+, AT, AJ, AQo, which, according to your logic, would be 9 out of 169.

16 / (16+9) &gt;&gt; 10%

Edit: Counting is difficult. fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah its more than 16. I need to redo the EV Calc

[carnivalhobo]

i didnt read much of this thread, but folding here is really bad.

[munkey]

Sometimes I 3bet, especially if I have some info on villan which I almost alwasy have, I like them to have a wide BTN PFR range and ability to fold as postflop I rue OOP.

Mostly I fold, mainly vs unknowns/potential calling stations/tricky players I don't want to play OOP.

Occasionally I call, usually when pots going multi-mutliway for big hand potential as I do with other Axs if feeling frisky. Or villan has wide likely dominated Ax range and will payoff a mid-sized pot.

The problem I have is how to play this hand postflop, as making mistakes are much more costly with the stack/pot ratio of a 3bet pot.

I think for us UNLers if in doubt fold,if u want to play pokah 3bet.

[Pokey]

Against an unknown, with a player to act behind me, I wince and fold.

A few thoughts:

<font color="blue">1. Being ahead of villain's range is largely irrelevant.</font> We're not in a hot-and-cold situation; rather, we're going to have to play poker postflop. We'll be out of position against a person who is (a) aggressive or (b) holding a great hand or (c) both. We have no idea who this opponent is, so the odds of misreading his plays will be very large. We're OOP, so we stand to lose much money if we're behind but win noticeably less if we're ahead. We can't trust most flops, so we won't be completely comfortable postflop barring a miracle.

<font color="blue">2. Against a relevant range, our hand doesn't look great.</font> Without knowing villain's steal probability, we have to assume it's relatively low, since most uNL opponents aren't big on stealing the blinds. Given that, we should assume (until proven otherwise) that this is a legitimate raise. Against a pocket pair, we're behind immediately. Against a strong ace, we're even farther behind. Again, position is incredibly important here, and we don't have it.

<font color="blue">3. Domination sucks.</font> Whenever I have a mediocre ace and I'm facing a raise, I worry about domination. AK and AQ really blow us out of the water, here, and they are VERY safely in villain's range. The worst part about domination is that you fold when you miss but you lose even MORE when you hit a second-best hand. Given that villain's extraction capabilities will be maximized due to position (there's that word again), I'm deeply afraid of playing easily dominated hands.

<font color="blue">4. Suited cards help extremely little when your opponent won't give you a free card.</font> It's dramatically more likely that we'll flop a four-flush than that we'd flop a made flush. When we hit our draw, what's the plan? B/3BAI? CRAI? Check-call? Hitting a flush draw is fantastic in a limped pot, or a raised pot, or a multi-way pot, but heads-up in a reraised pot it adds very little value, and serves to tie us to the pot, potentially costing us our stack.

<font color="blue">5. Defending your blinds is tricky, and should be done with great caution.</font> I've found that in a typical blind-stealing situation I usually win more money per hand than the blinds themselves. What does this mean? It means that when I attempt to steal the blinds the defenders are SO bad at what they do that they lose more money than they would if they just folded 100% of the time. Out of position, with dominated hands, with a weak plan, and facing a raise, you're all but doomed. You're not supposed to win money from the blinds; you're supposed to lose. The goal is to lose the least, and that happens just as often by folding weak holdings as it does by aggressively playing strong hands.

<font color="blue">6. Want to be aggressive? Do it with the right hands.</font> Good hands for a blind reraise would be any pocket pair, AK, and suited connectors: powerhous hands, hands where you'll know where you stand postflop, and hands that can create sneaky monsters. If an opponent is running you over, feel free to open up your range, but against a complete unknown there's no reason to risk your stack to protect your dime. AJs is a strong holding in an unraised pot but after a complete unknown with position raises you it starts to suck. In general, you should always be looking for reasons to fold from the blinds, and you should always be looking for reasons to raise from late position. I would rather defend my blinds 10% of the time than 20% of the time -- this is a "less is more" situation, and tight blind play is the road to success in ring play.

Raising is better than calling here, but I personally think folding is better than raising against an unknown. I'm more than willing to fight from the blinds, but not with an easily dominated hand and not without knowing who my enemy is.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, with a player to act behind me, I wince and fold.

A few thoughts:

<font color="blue">1. Being ahead of villain's range is largely irrelevant.</font> We're not in a hot-and-cold situation; rather, we're going to have to play poker postflop. We'll be out of position against a person who is (a) aggressive or (b) holding a great hand or (c) both. We have no idea who this opponent is, so the odds of misreading his plays will be very large. We're OOP, so we stand to lose much money if we're behind but win noticeably less if we're ahead. We can't trust most flops, so we won't be completely comfortable postflop barring a miracle.

<font color="blue">2. Against a relevant range, our hand doesn't look great.</font> Without knowing villain's steal probability, we have to assume it's relatively low, since most uNL opponents aren't big on stealing the blinds. Given that, we should assume (until proven otherwise) that this is a legitimate raise. Against a pocket pair, we're behind immediately. Against a strong ace, we're even farther behind. Again, position is incredibly important here, and we don't have it.

<font color="blue">3. Domination sucks.</font> Whenever I have a mediocre ace and I'm facing a raise, I worry about domination. AK and AQ really blow us out of the water, here, and they are VERY safely in villain's range. The worst part about domination is that you fold when you miss but you lose even MORE when you hit a second-best hand. Given that villain's extraction capabilities will be maximized due to position (there's that word again), I'm deeply afraid of playing easily dominated hands.

<font color="blue">4. Suited cards help extremely little when your opponent won't give you a free card.</font> It's dramatically more likely that we'll flop a four-flush than that we'd flop a made flush. When we hit our draw, what's the plan? B/3BAI? CRAI? Check-call? Hitting a flush draw is fantastic in a limped pot, or a raised pot, or a multi-way pot, but heads-up in a reraised pot it adds very little value, and serves to tie us to the pot, potentially costing us our stack.

<font color="blue">5. Defending your blinds is tricky, and should be done with great caution.</font> I've found that in a typical blind-stealing situation I usually win more money per hand than the blinds themselves. What does this mean? It means that when I attempt to steal the blinds the defenders are SO bad at what they do that they lose more money than they would if they just folded 100% of the time. Out of position, with dominated hands, with a weak plan, and facing a raise, you're all but doomed. You're not supposed to win money from the blinds; you're supposed to lose. The goal is to lose the least, and that happens just as often by folding weak holdings as it does by aggressively playing strong hands.

<font color="blue">6. Want to be aggressive? Do it with the right hands.</font> Good hands for a blind reraise would be any pocket pair, AK, and suited connectors: powerhous hands, hands where you'll know where you stand postflop, and hands that can create sneaky monsters. If an opponent is running you over, feel free to open up your range, but against a complete unknown there's no reason to risk your stack to protect your dime. AJs is a strong holding in an unraised pot but after a complete unknown with position raises you it starts to suck. In general, you should always be looking for reasons to fold from the blinds, and you should always be looking for reasons to raise from late position. I would rather defend my blinds 10% of the time than 20% of the time -- this is a "less is more" situation, and tight blind play is the road to success in ring play.

Raising is better than calling here, but I personally think folding is better than raising against an unknown. I'm more than willing to fight from the blinds, but not with an easily dominated hand and not without knowing who my enemy is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post. I think all 3 are perfectly acceptable but my goal was to determine which has the most ev. You think folding does? Does this change with AQo? What about AQs. From the gist of your post you fold AQs here too.

We are ahead of button's range and the question here is position. Position is hard to quantify in terms of value but we all know being in position has positive EV, and being out of position has negative EV.

I guess it comes down to, how much is position worth?

[Messiahkid]

[ QUOTE ]
There's this guy who like 8 tables and plays 37/30 or something crazy like that. His steal % is around 66 so I've started raising his 3xbb raises liberally from the SB and BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's probably me because there are tons of weak tight players at FTP 50NL

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, with a player to act behind me, I wince and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are ahead of button's range and the question here is position. Position is hard to quantify in terms of value but we all know being in position has positive EV, and being out of position has negative EV.

I guess it comes down to, how much is position worth?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are missing the point.

it has waaaaay more to do with button being an unknown (not to mention the guy still to act beind us) than it has to do with us being OOP .

vs certain types of villains a call is best here - vs others a fold - vs others a raise.

because we haven't got the slightest clue about this villain folding is best imo.

Generalising the button is probably raising a hand we are WA of and he'll probably (taking into account the quality of the average villain at uNL tables) call too far with bad hands and be next to impossible to bluff.

so once the flop comes we are WA/WB more often than not which neatly drops us into a RIO spot.

AJs is pretty - but it doesn't play well OOP postflop vs a wide range.

Try to avoid spots that come up often that keep costing you a call preflop and then a PSB call on the flop only to find villain bets the turn and all of a sudden our TPGK doesn't look so sweet. It's only a small loss but it's an oft repeated mistake and those ones are the most expensive in the long run.

Have a little patience and stop playing in the dark - figure out who your opponents are and THEN exploit them, don't think "wow I have AJs I have to call/raise this hand is too good to fold"

Yes it's weak - yes it's tight - yes I hate folding good cards but what value do you really expect to get out of this spot in the long run??

[corsakh]

If the villain is position aware, I 3bet. If not, fold.

ps Listen to Pokey /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Tien]

I RERAIIISEEEEEEEEE

[Tien]

Calling is horrendous, folding is too weak.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is horrendous, folding is too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the reference, Green Plastic, one of the best and most loose aggressive online players, usually just mucks AJ here.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling is horrendous, folding is too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just for the reference, Green Plastic, one of the best and most loose aggressive online players, usually just mucks AJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please tell us where you got this information ?

[thedustbustr]

quick grunch: its not "defending your blinds" per se, but rather, is he opening light enough that my hand is way ahead right now, even oop?

Just calling is unacceptable, and I aggree with Tien that folding is to weak. Button raiser doesn`t has any info on us either, so calling a re-raise from the blinds is pretty hard decision for him. We are ahead of a lot of button raising hands. If we do reraise him preflop we must be able to evaluate and be able to fold, depending on the postflop action.

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]


Try to avoid spots that come up often that keep costing you a call preflop and then a PSB call on the flop only to find villain bets the turn and all of a sudden our TPGK doesn't look so sweet. It's only a small loss but it's an oft repeated mistake and those ones are the most expensive in the long run.



[/ QUOTE ]

This really struck me as a potential quite significant leak, as you say it costs quite a few BBs and can occur fairly often. I often notice in some sessions where I may have won a few decent 1/2 stack pots but am up slightly because of these kinds of sized pots, often PFR,cbet and folded turn type of pots.

Time to break out PT and check this out l8er. If only I could use SQL I would be able to query for all these type of scenarios.

tks matrix I'm fairly sure there's some spots where I do this.

[bozzer]

Firstly, if this is AJo, then I think calling is by far the worst option. Without reads its a coinflip whether to raise or fold. The correct option depends heavily on how comfortable you are OOP, and what sort of player they are.

AJs, more arguments can be made for a call, but I still prefer a raise. I am significantly less likely to fold though. But again there is a different correct answer for all of us. This is one of those situations where the correct answer can be completely different for different players.

Sorry to sound vague, but i hope my answer gave an idea of what I would do.

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
Just for the reference, Green Plastic, one of the best and most loose aggressive online players, usually just mucks AJ here.


[/ QUOTE ]
When he's playing 25NL? /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I generally call here. I have an OK hand vs an unknown. No problems with reraising also, folding smells bad at my stakes.

[BobAllinSki]

3 betting this hand is a bluff, personaly I'd rather have 67s or 99 as it plays the rest of the hand a lot easier, but if you think now is a good time to bluff then go for it, you still have some potential if called.

Calling is a leak against aggro opponents, you will win a big pot when your ahead and loose a big pot when behind, against opponents who have a wide button raising range but are overwise predicatble &amp; passive postflop a call can be ok.

There isnt any shame in folding, dont let your opponents you can make these folds but how your hand fairs against villains range isnt all that counts, its also how it plays and you have a hand that will likely loose big or win small, even if it wins well over half the time it might still be -EV.

[AceLuby]

Folding is ridiculous.

Raising has its points, but against an unknown I don't think it's best.

Calling IMO is best. I mean if this was UTG I raise this every time, so in the BB I for sure call this. Post flop I lead out w/ TPTK, 2 pr, flush draws and such and usually c/f missed flops, but not playing this hand is riduculous.

Folding is weak.

[RollTide77]

I think reraising is dangerous cuz you've just increased the size of the pot on the flop so no matter what hits if you want to keep your $$ your going to have to put alot more in.

I'd probably call and look for the flush, top pair, or two pair. If I get a draw on this and he gives me the odds (4-1 on each street) I'm calling it down. If I have top pair or two pair and I get alot of fight from him then I'll probably fold by the turn thinking he's got a set or better kicker.

But if he keeps raising my blinds THEN I might try repopping and see if he'll fold. I know at my level (mostly 10NL) they're not going to fold.

[solinar]

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, with a player to act behind me, I wince and fold.

A few thoughts:

<font color="blue">1. Being ahead of villain's range is largely irrelevant.</font> We're not in a hot-and-cold situation; rather, we're going to have to play poker postflop. We'll be out of position against a person who is (a) aggressive or (b) holding a great hand or (c) both. We have no idea who this opponent is, so the odds of misreading his plays will be very large. We're OOP, so we stand to lose much money if we're behind but win noticeably less if we're ahead. We can't trust most flops, so we won't be completely comfortable postflop barring a miracle.

<font color="blue">2. Against a relevant range, our hand doesn't look great.</font> Without knowing villain's steal probability, we have to assume it's relatively low, since most uNL opponents aren't big on stealing the blinds. Given that, we should assume (until proven otherwise) that this is a legitimate raise. Against a pocket pair, we're behind immediately. Against a strong ace, we're even farther behind. Again, position is incredibly important here, and we don't have it.

<font color="blue">3. Domination sucks.</font> Whenever I have a mediocre ace and I'm facing a raise, I worry about domination. AK and AQ really blow us out of the water, here, and they are VERY safely in villain's range. The worst part about domination is that you fold when you miss but you lose even MORE when you hit a second-best hand. Given that villain's extraction capabilities will be maximized due to position (there's that word again), I'm deeply afraid of playing easily dominated hands.

<font color="blue">4. Suited cards help extremely little when your opponent won't give you a free card.</font> It's dramatically more likely that we'll flop a four-flush than that we'd flop a made flush. When we hit our draw, what's the plan? B/3BAI? CRAI? Check-call? Hitting a flush draw is fantastic in a limped pot, or a raised pot, or a multi-way pot, but heads-up in a reraised pot it adds very little value, and serves to tie us to the pot, potentially costing us our stack.

<font color="blue">5. Defending your blinds is tricky, and should be done with great caution.</font> I've found that in a typical blind-stealing situation I usually win more money per hand than the blinds themselves. What does this mean? It means that when I attempt to steal the blinds the defenders are SO bad at what they do that they lose more money than they would if they just folded 100% of the time. Out of position, with dominated hands, with a weak plan, and facing a raise, you're all but doomed. You're not supposed to win money from the blinds; you're supposed to lose. The goal is to lose the least, and that happens just as often by folding weak holdings as it does by aggressively playing strong hands.

<font color="blue">6. Want to be aggressive? Do it with the right hands.</font> Good hands for a blind reraise would be any pocket pair, AK, and suited connectors: powerhous hands, hands where you'll know where you stand postflop, and hands that can create sneaky monsters. If an opponent is running you over, feel free to open up your range, but against a complete unknown there's no reason to risk your stack to protect your dime. AJs is a strong holding in an unraised pot but after a complete unknown with position raises you it starts to suck. In general, you should always be looking for reasons to fold from the blinds, and you should always be looking for reasons to raise from late position. I would rather defend my blinds 10% of the time than 20% of the time -- this is a "less is more" situation, and tight blind play is the road to success in ring play.

Raising is better than calling here, but I personally think folding is better than raising against an unknown. I'm more than willing to fight from the blinds, but not with an easily dominated hand and not without knowing who my enemy is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great points Pokey. My question for you, however, is AJs playable for you in the SB when you are playing 3-handed? And if so, how is this situation any different (other than maybe the Button doesn't realize its the same as 3handed)?

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising is better than calling here, but I personally think folding is better than raising against an unknown. I'm more than willing to fight from the blinds, but not with an easily dominated hand and not without knowing who my enemy is.


[/ QUOTE ]

Everybody else's opponents must play better than mine at 25NL. It's a vulnerable spot to be sure but the majority of villains play terribly postflop - aggro or not.

[ QUOTE ]
there's no reason to risk your stack to protect your dime

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm not protecting my dime. Or risking my stack any more so than usual.
I've got enough to see a flop and BB 3-bets are pretty uncommon. The points Pokey makes are valid (obv) it's the presumption of opponent suckiness that lets me call. I've found very very few players to fear at this level so far. BB may well come along after I call and that'd be lovely.
Folding here is OK as general advice but me wanna play this./images/graemlins/crazy.gif 3-betting completely readless seems reckless. Folding vs an unknown 25NL player seems limp, even taking Pokey's reasoning into account. It's marginal tho. If I'd just moved to FT from Stars I'd probably bin it to start with. On home ground I'm happy that calling is marginally profitable.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]

This really struck me as a potential quite significant leak, as you say it costs quite a few BBs and can occur fairly often.
Time to break out PT and check this out .

[/ QUOTE ]

Been there done that during my recent hiatus.

this kind of spot and spots like it where I played even worse hands in sucky position with no reads were about the biggest leak in my game I found in the long run.

This is why I am still banging on about folding here /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Play a 1000 hand session - call in pots like this 10 times and fold to the turn bet losing 10BB

boom you just blew off a 100BB stack - in installments.

I really looked hard at places like this and there just isn't a whole lot of value to be had playing this hand in the long run (unless I got my sums wrong)

all you guys who say raise or call here:

where's the value?

show me the value.

Give the button a range - and stove it. Make some assumptions as to how a LP might play post or a rock or a LagDonk, work out how much you might make per hand from calling here and from raising here and get back to me.

I really don't see how this hand makes us money considering the likely quality of opponent who is a level zero/one thinker who is only playing the cards they were dealt.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
BB may well come along after I call and that'd be lovely.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you sure about that??

why is the BB coming along for the ride a good thing?

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[ QUOTE ]
Folding is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

why? - explain yourself.

Show me the value.

[Archon_Wing]

I prefer folding, because I suck postflop and I don't really see why we should play a big pot with this. AJ doesn't really flop very much, so are we really getting it in with a TP hand? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Raising is good, and if the guy is a loose raiser I like it very much so. It's the sexiest option imo. If you are truly ahead of villain's range here, then there's a chance you can take down the pot right here. If people fold to anything at these levels, then it's a healthy reraise preflop.You're definitely not calling a 4 bet anyways, plus it's much scarier if you continuation bet.

I hate calling. What do you want on the flop? A J is best, I don't know about the K. Monsters usually aren't going to get you much action. And you're gonna miss much more than you hit. So what? Donkbet out into a hand with no initative, and fold out worse hands while most likely not folding out better ones? And of course, there's a good chance villain might raise here, and even if his range is any two cards, are you going to put more money with A high. I feel two things happen: You end up c/f the flop, or your bet goes called/raised and you have to abandon the pot anyways. Nah, that's why I just folded. And yea, since people like to call at these levels with almost anything, that's yet another issue.

[sputum]

[ QUOTE ]
why is the BB coming along for the ride a good thing?


[/ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer to play this 3-handed than HU. Are you sure you would not? Why would the bb folding be a good thing after I call?
I feel I have a very good edge postflop on the vast majority of my opposition. I can hit my hand in a variety of ways and we're deep enough to take advantage of those times, especially with a cbet coming our way from hands that miss a lot of the time.
How much of my call do you think I'll lose on average? How expensive a mistake is calling here in your opinion? I like my hand.
What characteristics would you have needed to detect in the button to make this a non-fold? How do they differ from the 'average' 25NL player given his button raise here is all you've got to go on? How does your play, especially postflop, compare to the 'average' 25NLer?
Folding is easy and maybe saving the effort for more propitious circumstances makes sense overall if MTing but I'm happy to tangle with an unknown with AJs, oop or not.

[sputum]

Oh and Pokey, why the wince? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ama0330]

I want to jump in here and say that folding is not -EV, its 0ev because you've already posted the blind and you can't get it back. Its not "yours" per se, its just in the pot already and you cant do anything about it. Its not really "yours" to defend in a mathematical sense.

I think it depends a lot in this situation, if the button has been opening a lot ill 3bet this all the time just to shove it up his ass and push him around. If this is an unknown, I might call and see if I can take it away with a float. But I'm just as happy folding too, it really depends on so many things and I doubt that at NL25 this play is exploitable enough to be called a leak.

[whyzze]

I can see through pure math and hatred of money that a fold here can be good. But at these stakes it is wrong to fold here.

No read on villian. Well now is our chance to get one by 3-betting, or playing postflop.

I like the 3bet for obvious reasons, and I probably do it 50% of the time here, depending on my mood.

When I think about it though. I like a call the best. Simply because people at these limits play terrible in 3bet preflop pots. For example:

He has KK and opens on the button, I reraise with my AJs. Flop is Axxr. I lead for pot...he tanks, and pushes because he cant fold KK in a reraised pot. Now Im folding, kiss goodbye to the money. But thats just one example.

If we call. The postflop play is very easy. We are well ahead of his range, and our position is not bad at these stakes, I dont mind being OOP of preflop raiser.

Axxr flop, we c/c flop. c/f largish turn bet. Value bet river.

K/Qxxr flop, c/f flop. Lead/fold turn. check river if we miss. (we get info here, and could easily split)

Jxxr flop, check raise flop-fold to 3bet, pot control pot control pot control if he calls.

Draws, check raise flop-fold to push, double gutters, and flush draws.

xxxr flop, raise or check raise, probably check raise to get that cbet outta him.

If this gets felted we now know villian. If it doesn't you have just created a great image.

[iminurhead]

as Tien..............RAISE THAT (CENSORED) UP!...otherwise if u dont trust ur post flop play ....fold

[AceofSpades]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Assume 100BB effective stacks and Button is unknown</font>

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $1</font>, Hero ?

<font color="green">Please give a reason for why you chose either fold/call/raise</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

HERO calls and leads any flop. Assuming no read that button will call with air. His range includes enough non-pairs to make it an autobet I think... Players don't bluff raise with air enough to make a bet suck here