Transition from 10NL 6max to 25NL 6max

[Bowlboy]

I've taken a shot at 25NL before with no success. Played 2k hands or so and lost 4 buyins. Decided that perhaps I wasnt ready. I've played over 50k hands at 10NL (i know this is pretty sick) and have beaten it consitently. I've cashed out a few times though for personal financial reasons /images/graemlins/frown.gif which has been slowing down me building my bankroll up to the 20 buyins that I feel comfortable with playing 25NL. Anyhow, I'm there again and have been playing 25NL the past couple of days. First day was ok made $50 4tabling for like 4hours. It was up and down quite a bit though. Last night I was down $70 fast climbed back up and got knocked down again several times. Finally ended my session after 2k hands up another $10. Woot! So it seems that there are definitely some adjusting needed for me to get settled in at 25NL but I just might be ok given some time.

One thing that I have noticed though, is that 10NL and 25NL are nothing alike. I've heard people say that there really is no difference and that if you are beating 10NL consistently you can move up no problem. I'm finding it much more aggressive, and a lot of players are a lot tighter. I'm not getting the action off of my sets like I did at 10NL. Seems like I'm mostly just getting action when I dont want it. Hey maybe chalk it up to variance, but after several thousand hands against hundreds of players
and it still seems a lot tougher than 10NL maybe it is?

Last night, it seemed like no matter what table I went to, everybody was playing TAG or something close to it. At the very least it seemed that most players, say 75%+ had a pretty solid preflop game, which is half the battle for me in extracting money. A lot of players are playing back at my cbets and costing me lots of money because I keep folding to these flop raises when I had nothing. This is something that I'm not used to. I tried adjusting. One guy that raised all my cbets everytime he saw a flop with me did it again and I 3bet the flop and he folded. Did the same thing again and he folded. From then on he backed off of me, and started playing very straightforwardly against me. I was actually able to raise a few of his cbets with air and take some pots away from him.

I started experimenting a bit against a few other players by raising their cbets in position and folded them out. One guy I think had enough of it, and I stacked his over pair to my flopped trips /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Basically, it seems that straight forward play will still work against the LPP's and what not for obvious reasons. Against the more aggressive players however I'm losing money on cbets getting raised unless I put in a couple of 3bets on the flop here and there just to let them know I cant be pushed around. If I get caught doing this so be it, as it sets me up to get huge action the next time I've got a monster.

Is it typical at 25NL tables on stars to not find any LPP's with like 50%+ vpip? The average VPIP was like 27% last night. Maybe I have to keep switching tables to find good ones? I found a few tables that were just rock gardens too with average vpip under 20%. I didnt stay too long at those.

What are the best times to get on 25NL 6max on stars? For the most part I'm coming across way too many people that just seem to know what they're doing and that's no good for me. I think I'm definitely solid for 10NL but I cant help but feel that I've got so much to learn in order to be able to beat 25NL. Kind of discouraging considering the amount of hands I've played, and the amount of time I've put into learning.

Any advice, words of wisdom from those who have recently moved from 10NL to 25NL, specifically on stars but I suppose it doesnt matter much on which site?

Hi Bowlboy, I am pretty much in the same situation as you and probably not the most experienced 25NL player. Only 3.5bb/100 Pt so far over 9000 hands.
I did the move to 25NL, but I did find it`s pretty much the same as 10NL (0.10c bb). However, I did noticed the same differences as you did. As you mentioned people will float more. So adjusting, like you have allready done is important. Also, firing 2nd barrels against players who float alot is necessary.

Things I am focusing on 25NL that I have not so much at 10NL

Changing gears, depending on my table image. Loosen up PFR when people fold to much to my raises and tighten up when you get to many callers.

Table selection, The regulars on 25NL are tougher than 10NL, however the fish are the same, so table selection becomes more important.

When I loose 2 or even 3 buy ins at 25NL and see 75$ gone I felt uncomfortable, cause it looks like a lot of money and I was used to 25 or 30$ swings at 10NL. So I`m slowly getting used to that and think more in terms of buy ins in propotion to my bankroll. I also play fewer but longer sessions, works best for me cause i build big stacks and find it easier to stack the fish and push around the Tags.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
I've taken a shot at 25NL before with no success. Played 2k hands or so and lost 4 buyins. Decided that perhaps I wasnt ready. I've played over 50k hands at 10NL (i know this is pretty sick) and have beaten it consitently. I've cashed out a few times though for personal financial reasons /images/graemlins/frown.gif which has been slowing down me building my bankroll up to the 20 buyins that I feel comfortable with playing 25NL. Anyhow, I'm there again and have been playing 25NL the past couple of days. First day was ok made $50 4tabling for like 4hours. It was up and down quite a bit though. Last night I was down $70 fast climbed back up and got knocked down again several times. Finally ended my session after 2k hands up another $10. Woot! So it seems that there are definitely some adjusting needed for me to get settled in at 25NL but I just might be ok given some time.

One thing that I have noticed though, is that 10NL and 25NL are nothing alike. I've heard people say that there really is no difference and that if you are beating 10NL consistently you can move up no problem. I'm finding it much more aggressive, and a lot of players are a lot tighter. I'm not getting the action off of my sets like I did at 10NL. Seems like I'm mostly just getting action when I dont want it. Hey maybe chalk it up to variance, but after several thousand hands against hundreds of players
and it still seems a lot tougher than 10NL maybe it is?

Last night, it seemed like no matter what table I went to, everybody was playing TAG or something close to it. At the very least it seemed that most players, say 75%+ had a pretty solid preflop game, which is half the battle for me in extracting money. A lot of players are playing back at my cbets and costing me lots of money because I keep folding to these flop raises when I had nothing. This is something that I'm not used to. I tried adjusting. One guy that raised all my cbets everytime he saw a flop with me did it again and I 3bet the flop and he folded. Did the same thing again and he folded. From then on he backed off of me, and started playing very straightforwardly against me. I was actually able to raise a few of his cbets with air and take some pots away from him.

I started experimenting a bit against a few other players by raising their cbets in position and folded them out. One guy I think had enough of it, and I stacked his over pair to my flopped trips /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Basically, it seems that straight forward play will still work against the LPP's and what not for obvious reasons. Against the more aggressive players however I'm losing money on cbets getting raised unless I put in a couple of 3bets on the flop here and there just to let them know I cant be pushed around. If I get caught doing this so be it, as it sets me up to get huge action the next time I've got a monster.

Is it typical at 25NL tables on stars to not find any LPP's with like 50%+ vpip? The average VPIP was like 27% last night. Maybe I have to keep switching tables to find good ones? I found a few tables that were just rock gardens too with average vpip under 20%. I didnt stay too long at those.

What are the best times to get on 25NL 6max on stars? For the most part I'm coming across way too many people that just seem to know what they're doing and that's no good for me. I think I'm definitely solid for 10NL but I cant help but feel that I've got so much to learn in order to be able to beat 25NL. Kind of discouraging considering the amount of hands I've played, and the amount of time I've put into learning.

Any advice, words of wisdom from those who have recently moved from 10NL to 25NL, specifically on stars but I suppose it doesnt matter much on which site?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually in the opposite situation of you. I was playing 50NL and had to drop down to 25NL because I was getting run over.

Stay on Stars, the games are probably easier than Full Tilt. What are your Ptracker/Pokerace #'s? If you don't have those two programs you should get them ASAP. Right now I'm actually 6 tabling 25nl on FT and running at 11pt/bb over 2k hands (small sample size I know) but its definitely difficult.

A couple of things to consider, you should be 3betting more. If you know the button likes to steal, 3 betting with low pckt pairs/suited connectors is a pretty good counter.

Open up from the Button/CO more. Play hands like K9s/J8s etc (depending on image) and tighten up OOP.

Bet your hands hard, ALMOST never slowplay. If you flop a set, bet it, if you flop a flush/full house/quads BET IT.

Otherwise don't try to get too fancy. If people are raising your cbets with air don't 3bet them with air. Just pick your spots and value bet more.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

[Vyse]

FT games are definitely tougher, filled with TAGs -- is it profitable to turn into a LAG?

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
FT games are definitely tougher, filled with TAGs -- is it profitable to turn into a LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

TAGs at this level suk, you shouldn't have a problem owning them tbh. Also, if there aren't an abundance of fish at your table you should either move tables or move site. Even when I play 200NL, if there are more than 2 TAGs at my table I just move.

Stick to TAG - I wouldn't play any looser than 22/17 at these games, maybe 25/20 at a real push.

[ama0330]

There is a big difference in playing for profit and playing to better yourself. If you are having trouble building your roll you should be playing super super tight, like 16/10 and just betting purely for value. As you gain experience and you start to recognise profitable situations you can open that up a bit but you should basically just be a total nit until you get your confidence up at this new level.

[Bowlboy]

All good advice ty. If I were playing my usual 6tables and bringing in 11PTBB/100 I'd basically be playing pro. I doubt I'm going to be getting a winrate anywhere near that for a long time though /images/graemlins/grin.gif

To be honest, I suspect that aside from me needing to adjust to a bigger tougher game, variance has given me a good slap in the face at 25NL. I'm hoping this turns around soon so that I can get comfortable a start winning solidly for awhile. Then variance won't scare me anymore, just how it doesnt even make me blink at $10NL.

[matrix]

Jay and ama have nailed it.

stick with TAG - play very nitty fold almost everything UTG and in the blinds - play a a few more hands in LP

there's not much value in opening up past 20/15 or so until you can read hands pretty well. To learn to do that you need experience - have patience, play tight, put in the hands and let the money look after itself.

[Bowlboy]

I've actually played 11k hands at 25NL and am ahead a whole $31! My overall stats are 18/13/3.79. My vpip UTG is about half of my VPIP OTB same goes for PFR%. Although, I'm sure there is room for some improvment, ie, tighten up even more UTG and maybe LAG it up a bit more OTB, I am definitely playing tight and very conscience of position.
I dont open limp, and i'm not afraid to 3bet or get it all in where I think I'm getting the best of it. Most of my problems lie post flop where I'm being pushed off hands. I would love to be able to play nitty for now and make steady money but I think to effectively be a nit post flop I'd have to do it preflop, other wise I end up folding way too many hands after the flop where I have raised pre.



Nevertheless, I'm losing money from the blinds and UTG. I

[KurtSF]

Variance is a bitch. Keep plugging.

[kyleparks]

i was making 21.50$/hr playing 25nl 6max on FTP. it seems that FTP has loosened up and stars has gotten extremely tight after party closed its doors.


trick to making money at 25nl = overbetting the pot with the nuts

[Leviathan101]

Lol... I can't beat 10nl, but crush 25nl and can beat 50nl.
I think that's funny.

I do think FTP is filled with TAGs and Weak Tight players, which is one of the reasons I like to play LAG.

Seriously thought, Kyleparks is right.

Use the stack a donk play a lot. It works.

You should be able to beat 25nl pretty easily. Adjusting is the key.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FT games are definitely tougher, filled with TAGs -- is it profitable to turn into a LAG?

[/ QUOTE ]

TAGs at this level suk, you shouldn't have a problem owning them tbh. Also, if there aren't an abundance of fish at your table you should either move tables or move site. Even when I play 200NL, if there are more than 2 TAGs at my table I just move.

Stick to TAG - I wouldn't play any looser than 22/17 at these games, maybe 25/20 at a real push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually don't get involved with them unless I have strong reads (admittedly, TAGs are easier to read from the get go than other types). But besides that, I don't know how to get involved with them besides taking their blinds.

[Miraculix]

[ QUOTE ]

Use the stack a donk play a lot. It works.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi.

Information on this please!?

// M

[Check_The_Nuts]

Bowl there is usually at least one or two fish at the tables at 25NL I find. Yeah I agree the limits play very differently. You need to judge when to cbet better/more often.

3betting with air....I didn't think anyone else but me did that. Pretty sure your laggier than I am though, which is probably why yur having a hard time adjusting...

[kabouter]

Why cash out at this level? Just go flip some burgers if you really need the money, you want to move up right?

I cashed out only once so far, and that was because UB and neteller screwed things up, so I'm keeping that money, but I'm not planning on cashing out again till I got at least 10k.