I really wanna talk about....

[ama0330]

....what to do in these spots. What do you do, and why? Villain is meow chow, 20vpip, 11 pfr, meoooow choooow.

Whats the plan?

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $2</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.5, 2 players)
Hero ....

[barryc83]

RR pf a lot to a CO open raise. I'm like 18/12 and I'll raise 68s from the CO.

[Hank Scorpio]

Man, me too...playing hands like this OOP suck.

I think betting is the way to go though isn't it? If called just shut down?

[EMc]

Stop. n. Go.

[Imrahil]

I usually just check/call.

[z28dreams]

I normally just lead here. TT is pretty vulnerable to overcards.

[ama0330]

Ok so we got people saying lead and people saying check call. What are the reasons for both?

ps, assume preflop is standard for now, its not important.

[TheSalche]

Both are tough, check/call gives a chance for the turn to come another broadway card, and you may have been behind anyway. If you donk bet, tough players will raise you here with air and you'll have to fold (cause you would check/raise with tptk usually, maybe even a set).

[ama0330]

Here's my catch 22.

You can't lead, because you cannot bet three streets of value with the overcard out. By that I mean that if you bet and are called, on such a dry board, you cant be sure that you are betting for value on the turn. If you DO bet the turn, and are called, you basically have to check fold the river, and if you are bet into on the turn, you have no idea what you are doing.

BUT

If you check call this board, villain will basically know that you dont have the king, UNLESS you are willing to call the turn - BUT, what hand bets two streets in a raised pot with a king out, that isnt a king?? Or that cant beat a king? So if you check call, you have to fold to a double barrel.

What the hell? Someone has to be able to shed some light on this.

[EMc]

Check/call=&gt;lead turn is my standard here, it allows us to pick off the CB of the villain and if he raises the turn you know you are completely toast. If villain just calls its you should use your descrition here. I think leading is a bad option as you are turning your hand totally into a bluff. Any hand you beat isnt calling and anything that beats you is calling/raising.

[z28dreams]

Like Salche said, I may be more inclined to stop 'n go against a LAG'y player.

The more I think of it the more I like the check/call line on the flop.

[Hank Scorpio]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop. n. Go.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this? I've never heard of it. Tks

[Hank Scorpio]

Even if the board is 8 2 2 instead of an over to your 10s, what do you think is better? In other words, I think a more general discussion of how to play OOP is what I'm confused about. Donking or c / c both have their limitations.

[kaz2107]

i typically 3 bet preflop which makes this spot easier to play

as played tho (assuming villian is decent and will cbet basically everytime) i check call lead turn all day here unless the turn is an A. then i just check fold. if u get raised obv dump and if he calls i look to get to showdown cheap whether u block bet or check call a small river bet

[Panthro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stop. n. Go.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this? I've never heard of it. Tks

[/ QUOTE ]

c/c flop b/f turn. And I use this line alot against LAGtards who frequently double barrel and will raise flop donk bets at will.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stop. n. Go.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is this? I've never heard of it. Tks

[/ QUOTE ]


its to call a street OOP than lead the next.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/call=&gt;lead turn is my standard here, it allows us to pick off the CB of the villain and if he raises the turn you know you are completely toast. If villain just calls its you should use your descrition here. I think leading is a bad option as you are turning your hand totally into a bluff. Any hand you beat isnt calling and anything that beats you is calling/raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that lead the flop is bad and I think that c/c is best. But for the turn, has c/c flop lead turn been workign for you? What is your line for river if your lead is called on the turn? C/c? c/f?

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check/call=&gt;lead turn is my standard here, it allows us to pick off the CB of the villain and if he raises the turn you know you are completely toast. If villain just calls its you should use your descrition here. I think leading is a bad option as you are turning your hand totally into a bluff. Any hand you beat isnt calling and anything that beats you is calling/raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that lead the flop is bad and I think that c/c is best. But for the turn, has c/c flop lead turn been workign for you? What is your line for river if your lead is called on the turn? C/c? c/f?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its worked well for me. I evaluate the river on a case by case basis based on texture, reads, conditions.

[Hank Scorpio]

Do you use the stop n go whenever you're out of position (good hand, marginal hand, etc) (bad hand you obv. check fold) and the board isn't scary? If it is scary and you have a good hand I'm assuming you bet out?

[Jouster777]

If we are going to c/c flop and lead turn...why not C/R the flop? Villain is far more likely than hero to improve with a turn card and FE is at least as good or better to the same size raise.

[Hank Scorpio]

Because you're making the pot big with a marginal hand and you're only getting called with a hand that beats you.

[Jouster777]

I started with "assuming we are going to c/c flop and lead turn"...in which case your same comments apply, do they not?

The main difference to me is that villain gets to see one more card

[KurtSF]

*grunch*

Depends on the victim, errr, I mean villain. Lines I will take include:

(a) donkbet $4.
(2) check/call
(iii) check/fold
(D) check/raise

I find (a) is a good line against a nit who will fold without AA or AK. Nitty McNitterson will likely fold JJ, QQ, and any King less than KQ. Yeah, EZ fold to a riase. (2) is a good line against a LAG who will open raise 15-20% of hands here. Seriously, you're almost certain to have the best hand preflop, and sans a K you still do, so most often you have the best hand, now just give the aggressive fool the rope to hang himself with and he'll fire every street on a bluff. I'll use (iii) a lot against solid players or without a read. If I don't want to get involved in a decent sized pot because I respect the villain or because I don't know where I am, I'll drop this before it gets expensive. And (last) is just teh sexahy! Use sparingly.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
I started with "assuming we are going to c/c flop and lead turn"...in which case your same comments apply, do they not?

The main difference to me is that villain gets to see one more card

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a reason that I switched from C/Ring to this line and I realyl wish I didnt drink that brain cell away.

[Hank Scorpio]

No, they don't apply. By using the stop n go, you're more likely to get called by weaker hands by showing less strength on the flop. Also, the pot won't be as big if villian just decides to call your turn bet.

This thread has potential btw....I think a thread discussing the common lines to be played OOP and IP will be very useful. I might get started on something like that if it hasn't been done already.

[Check_The_Nuts]

EMC - floating is better because you can lead the turn for 1/2-&gt;2/3 pot and still not look weak. If you check raise it should normally be to a full pot or whatever, which is more expensive.

If you are going to lead turn for a full pot, then yeah I'd imagine check raising with TT here is better, but I dunno, with the check/call lead line, you can use that with TPTK or TPGK and still be somewhat OK with calling a turn raise if you think villian is FOS. Check raising flop you can't really do with TPGK or whatever...

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
EMC - floating is better because you can lead the turn for 1/2-&gt;2/3 pot and still not look weak. If you check raise it should normally be to a full pot or whatever, which is more expensive.

If you are going to lead turn for a full pot, then yeah I'd imagine check raising with TT here is better, but I dunno, with the check/call lead line, you can use that with TPTK or TPGK and still be somewhat OK with calling a turn raise if you think villian is FOS. Check raising flop you can't really do with TPGK or whatever...


[/ QUOTE ]
This is not the first time this set of lines has been discussed...that's the best anti-c/r explanation I've seen.

[matrix]

ama:

whats your plan with this hand??

Hero has 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB, folds to CO who raises 4BB, folded to Hero who calls.

flop comes K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (pot 9BB: 2 players)

Hero... ?

[RollTide77]

To me the more cards you play with TT on a K high board the closer you are to getting beat. Your hand most likely isn't going to improve so you want to end it before a J, Q, A, straight, or flush hits.

I always lead the flop and if he RR I'm probably dumping it. If he calls then I'm not leading any more streets during the hand unless a T drops or I feel he's got a lower pair. But even then, who's gonna call with a weak mid pair on a K-high board?

Another point is that the more streets you play the more money you put at risk trying to take the hand. A bluff at the flop costs alot less than a bluff on the turn or river. By c/c and then leading the turn I don't see how you accomplish any more than leading the flop. You're stealing and your steal costs more so if he's got the goods you're out alot more $$. No?

[RollTide77]

[ QUOTE ]
ama:

whats your plan with this hand??

Hero has 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB, folds to CO who raises 4BB, folded to Hero who calls.

flop comes K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (pot 9BB: 2 players)

Hero... ?

[/ QUOTE ]c/f usually. You're beat by any K9+ hand in his range and you don't even have a draw. Plus there's tons of overs coming.

[Vyse]

[ QUOTE ]
By c/c and then leading the turn I don't see how you accomplish any more than leading the flop. You're stealing and your steal costs more so if he's got the goods you're out alot more $$. No?

[/ QUOTE ]

By having a much better chance of succeeding. If I'm the villain and he checks, I'm going to cbet that 99% of the time. When he calls and then leads out on the turn, if I have anything less than the K I am most definitely folding w/o reads. And if an overcard to that TT hits, it makes his hand look even stronger -- assuming I don't have anything, that is.

[orange]

c/c flop is fine. turn play is based off the card and how aggro villan is. if he's pretty aggro i would just check again. overall, at this level, i would check again most times. people dont double barrel nearly enough to make our line exploitable.

[ama0330]

If we stop and go this flop, what hand are we representing? i.e. if you cbet a flop like this, are called, and then you get bet into on a blank turn, do you think its the king?

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
If we stop and go this flop, what hand are we representing? i.e. if you cbet a flop like this, are called, and then you get bet into on a blank turn, do you think its the king?

[/ QUOTE ]
we are repping exactly what we have, a mid pair most times. sometimes we can play this way with a set. Kings arent really in our hand range (what King would you have here? KQ sometimes, KJ prob not, etc). To good hand readers, a raise is pretty profitable if your in villan's spot, especially if you know your playing vs. a TAG.

i dont mind checking turn again and probably folding to a double barrel. as stated before, players dont double barrel at these stakes enough to make our line exploitable. most times players will check turn.

[Antinome]

I often donkbet here as part of a general strategy for getting my best hands paid off. It isn't entirely a bluff when TT is in the middle of my range for donkbetting. Because I do this I do not have to be check raising sets, top two, TPTK or generally engaging in slowplay of any kind. some opponents figure out or are predisposed to believe I donkbet light and play back hard with anything. Those I don't need to donkbet light; if I do I don't know what they'll reraise me with, so I'm more likely to stop n go them. Others never catch on or are predisposed to think donkbets are strong, so I do their cbetting for them and pick up all the flops they miss. My favorite ones will start calling me here with 44+ and then we get into some really interesting poker.

Different post-flop strategies and different opponents will dictate different strategies here, but don't dismiss the humble and oft-maligned donkbet out of hand.

[Mal_Pais]

[ QUOTE ]
I often donkbet here as part of a general strategy for getting my best hands paid off. It isn't entirely a bluff when TT is in the middle of my range for donkbetting. Because I do this I do not have to be check raising sets, top two, TPTK or generally engaging in slowplay of any kind. some opponents figure out or are predisposed to believe I donkbet light and play back hard with anything. Those I don't need to donkbet light; if I do I don't know what they'll reraise me with, so I'm more likely to stop n go them. Others never catch on or are predisposed to think donkbets are strong, so I do their cbetting for them and pick up all the flops they miss. My favorite ones will start calling me here with 44+ and then we get into some really interesting poker.

Different post-flop strategies and different opponents will dictate different strategies here, but don't dismiss the humble and oft-maligned donkbet out of hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. I see the merits in check-calling, but I want to discourage Villian's c-bet, so I often donk the flop here, and if raised I fold and if called I shut down unless I improve. Probably not the optimal line, but I remember when I played UB, Villians would fold here regularly and show me hands like JJ or QQ. I miss UB and the FOLD AND SHOW button.

The problem I see with check-calling is that we still have no idea what Villian holds by the turn. What's our plan if we don't improve? Hope he checks behind?

The donk bet either protects our best hand or gives us an idea of his hand if he raises the flop while the bets are cheap. The problem I run into with donkbetting this flop is that if he calls, I have to go into "keep the pot small" mode, not knowing where I'm at in the hand, leading to more expensive decisions on later streets. The donk bet gives me the opportunity to take it down on the flop.

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I see with check-calling is that we still have no idea what Villian holds by the turn. What's our plan if we don't improve? Hope he checks behind?



[/ QUOTE ]
you still dont have any idea what villan has by the turn if he calls your flop bet. betting for information " " is meh.

[Check_The_Nuts]

Orange - in a vacuum I like your line, and would definitely use it once in a while. But overall I'm not a huge fan, because as someone said earlier, a good player will raise the turn with a wide range of hands since its very profitable.

I can come up with a method to make this unprofitable very fast.

With your line, if I have a monster I don't want to check/call then check/raise turn. Kinda sucky, and points to a huge hand. No way can villian play back at that.

If I called preflop with 76s in the BB here then I would do whatever was exploitable to the player I called with this against (I would probably only just call if the player was very exploitable postflop). If he gave up on cbets a lot, then floating with such a hand is a good idea, or if he folded to donkbets too often, then I would lead out, etc. I don't think that hand is particularly relevant to a pair hand.

I have 3bet the turn once with 99 on a T8xx board and the guy folded (I used this line). But I've only done that once ever, and its a pretty crazy thing to do.

[Check_The_Nuts]

The 76s hand i was just replying to the earlier hand posted that went K74 or whatever, and we held 76s.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]

If I called preflop with 76s in the BB here then I would do whatever was exploitable to the player I called with this against (I would probably only just call if the player was very exploitable postflop). If he gave up on cbets a lot, then floating with such a hand is a good idea, or if he folded to donkbets too often, then I would lead out, etc.

I don't think that hand is particularly relevant to a pair hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the OP hand on the flop we have middle pair with no draw OOP to a preflop aggressor.

in the 76s hand we have middle pair OOP with no draw to a preflop aggressor.

It's essentially the same hand. (Yes I can count I know a Ten has 3 more pips than a seven and there are a couple of extra overcards we are wary of but really whats the difference?)

In both the OP hand and the 76s example I call the flop (as villain is almost always cbetting here no matter what he holds) and look and see what happens on the turn after I check it to him - if I turn three of a kind - yahtzee lets go to value town and look for bet/3bet action - otherwise I am usually check folding.

We aren't I think giving up much value this kind of spot is ReverseImpliedOddsVille - often we check fold the best hand to a double barrel on the turn. This is OK tho cos sometimes he has the K or JJ or somesuch that he isn't folding that beats us and we have to pay lots to find this out. The monies we lose the few times we are crushed far outweight the meager value we can get the more frequent times we are ahead imo.

vs some players I c/c my MP all the way to SD - vs an aggro player I'm inclined to c/c down and make him show m a better hand (cos he'll often bluff so I am beat lessoften) vs a more passive postflop player I just c/fold the turn.

This spot sucks - being OOP sucks and I will do everything I can to avoid getting myself into this spot in the first place - and usually that means re-raising preflop, then representing the K on teh flop and most often taking it down there or preflop.

CTN: "a good player will raise turn with variety of hands"

this is $50NL the numbers of "good" players who will raise the turn or who will pick your hand on the turn as being MP no draw and play back at you just enough to force a fold are very very slim on the ground, most 50NL players IME can't and won't raise the turn on a bluff here.

...

Cliffnotes:

with middling pocket pairs OOP either call preflop and look to spike a set or reraise preflop and look to represent a big hand on the flop and take the pot with a CB bluff.

re-raising is better imo - but sometimes you need to swing both ways for balance - I don't think there's much wrong either with just c/f flop now and then - what line to take and when is entirely opponent specific.

In general forget about small pots OOP look to steal a few here and there but if called let them go - instead look to play big pots in position, we don't have to win everypot.

[tx_saluki]

When I first read the post of the 76s hand I was thinking the same thing and I am surprised that people would c/f the 76s but c/c or even c/r the Ts. Beyond the "prettiness" factor of the Ts, how are they a better hand? IMO, the 76s has more potential since you have 5 outs to improve against Kx or 88+ instead of just 2 outs (ignoring the 88, 99 that beats you in hand 2 and you beat in hand 1).

For both hands I like c/c, lead turn better than c/r flop because you get to see one more card. Most players do not like to fold on the flop after they put money in unless you make a &gt;pot sized raise. So you are putting more money in for them to just call. The c/c lead turn allows you to see the turn and reassess where u are at. If another over comes it is an easy c/f turn, if a card lower than T comes you can lead 1/2 - 2/3 pot and then fold if raised (still cheaper than the c/r flop option). If a T comes then you just hit the jackpot.

[Check_The_Nuts]

matrix - was just pointing out that good players raising the turn doesn't make floating unprofitable. In fact it can be more profitable against such a player.

I agree most 50NLers won't make that turn raise. Was just countering an earlier point that someone made about raising the turn with a wide range....

and I never said anything but always floating here, or taking one line, etc. In NL sometimes we must vary our play /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[jskinn04]

Being OOP against a good player with a middle pair is likely -EV. Why was the plan preflop to flat call, not reraise? Were you set mining? Did you think he would c-bet whiffed hands and give up? (suggest c/c flop, c turn). Did you think he would fire 3 barrels with five high so you could call him down? Did you think he'd only bet if he flopped top pair (c flop, lead safe turn)? Do you think he'll only call a donk with top pair?

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
c/c flop is fine. turn play is based off the card and how aggro villan is. if he's pretty aggro i would just check again. overall, at this level, i would check again most times. people dont double barrel nearly enough to make our line exploitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
thank you orange