50nl: QQ - help me play them right

[MFpoker]

i'm in the worst poker rut of my life and i need your help. what was i supposed to do here? was i just destined to lose from the beginning?

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($54.35)
BB ($52.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, BB calls $1.75.

Flop: ($4.50) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $4.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18</font>, BB calls $13.50.

Turn: ($40.50) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $34.1 (All-In)</font>, BB calls $32.70 (All-In).

River: ($107.30) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $107.30

[raistlinx]

I have never played at UB so don't know the players, but with an overpair here you want to play a medium sized pot.

My play here is to raise to about $13 on the flop and check behind on the turn for pot control. If no overcard comes I will call a value-ish looking bet on the river or value bet myself if checked to.

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never played at UB so don't know the players, but with an overpair here you want to play a medium sized pot.

My play here is to raise to about $13 on the flop and check behind on the turn for pot control. If no overcard comes I will call a value-ish looking bet on the river or value bet myself if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]
No no no, you don´t raise less for pot control, that is completely backwards. You either raise the amount op did because villain is aggressive and you think you will be ahead enough if you get it all in on the flop. This is not a bad idea since the flop is drawy but could backfire /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The other line, "pot control", you just call the flop, this accomplishes a couple of things, you keep the pot smaller, you get to see what villain does on the turn before you commit to the pot, you induce action from worse hands who will either valuebet with worse or bluff. Obv you let a ton of hands that is drawing live get a free look at the turn.

My line here, HU, would be exactly how op played it. QQ is a more than decent holding on this board.

[SpecT]

you played this fine i think. Flop raise is good as its a pretty drawy board so u dont want to be giving them cheap cards. Also, i like the raise to $18 because it lets us get it allin on the turn (which is wat we want to do) for less than a PSB which could get a draw to call.

I think you played it fine, if u lost here its just a cooler. Dealing with ur downswing though, id do some reading up on the threads in the uNL sticky, especially the ones about a downswing. Also, try posting some troubling hands (it doesnt matter if u won or lost them) rather than just the ones u got unlucky in. Coolers are part of poker, it all evens out in the long run anywayz /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have never played at UB so don't know the players, but with an overpair here you want to play a medium sized pot.

My play here is to raise to about $13 on the flop and check behind on the turn for pot control. If no overcard comes I will call a value-ish looking bet on the river or value bet myself if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]
No no no, you don´t raise less for pot control, that is completely backwards. You either raise the amount op did because villain is aggressive and you think you will be ahead enough if you get it all in on the flop. This is not a bad idea since the flop is drawy but could backfire /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The other line, "pot control", you just call the flop, this accomplishes a couple of things, you keep the pot smaller, you get to see what villain does on the turn before you commit to the pot, you induce action from worse hands who will either valuebet with worse or bluff. Obv you let a ton of hands that is drawing live get a free look at the turn.

My line here, HU, would be exactly how op played it. QQ is a more than decent holding on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misread my post. I didn't say I'd check behind on the flop, but raising him 3x will accomplish the same thing as 4x. The check on the turn was for pot control. You want to play a medium sized pot, not a huge pot. Save them for the big hands. I'm always looking for people who overvalue TP or an overpair at my tables.

[SpecT]

raistlinx - this is a very drawy board and there's not too many hands we're afraid of atm. We dont want to b giving away free cards and also want to b putting as much money in the pot on the flop as we can. Raising to only $13 makes it a $30 pot on the turn wen they both have $38 effective stacks, which makes it awkward. raising to $18 makes it an easy push on the turn and is less than a PSB so draws are more likely to call us

[raistlinx]

I don't think a draw often pot's it here on the flop and if he does a raise to $13 only gives him under 3-1 to call. If he donks the turn when a draw hits you can get away form the hand.

A pair is just not that strong a hand to be pushing hard with. Pushing on the turn is a sure way to get stacked in the long run by better players.

Yes I admit you can do it at the microlevels and over time get paid off by the QJos hands, but you will never move up without getting beat back down by smarter players who won;t play a big pot with out a big hand. And isn't that the real goal here?

[Imrahil]

You played it fine. An overpair is big HU. Sorry if he had T9o or T9 of spades.

[SpecT]

yes i guess your small raise does have merits although i dont see how we are getting away from this if he donks into us on the turn. like, u think ur gunna fold an overpair to a $15 bet into a $30 pot? no, ull call, and then probably b pot committed on the river. im going to bed now, but i have one last point:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I admit you can do it at the microlevels and over time get paid off by the QJos hands, but you will never move up without getting beat back down by smarter players who won;t play a big pot with out a big hand. And isn't that the real goal here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is incorrect, although i may have misunderstood you. From wat i can gather, your basically saying to make sub-optimal plays at a given limit, which are optimal plays at a higher limit, so u dont have trouble wen u move to that new limit. At these micro limits, players will go broke with AJ, KJ, QJ, mayb even JT, just coz players at higher limits dont stack off with these hands mean nothing. Our goal is to play as optimally as possible at any single limit, and then adjust your game after you move up, not the other way around. If ive mis interpreted you then ignore this :P

gnight everyone

[Acein8ter]

It's always tough to play agsinst and read flopped sets...

[Waingro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have never played at UB so don't know the players, but with an overpair here you want to play a medium sized pot.

My play here is to raise to about $13 on the flop and check behind on the turn for pot control. If no overcard comes I will call a value-ish looking bet on the river or value bet myself if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]
No no no, you don´t raise less for pot control, that is completely backwards. You either raise the amount op did because villain is aggressive and you think you will be ahead enough if you get it all in on the flop. This is not a bad idea since the flop is drawy but could backfire /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The other line, "pot control", you just call the flop, this accomplishes a couple of things, you keep the pot smaller, you get to see what villain does on the turn before you commit to the pot, you induce action from worse hands who will either valuebet with worse or bluff. Obv you let a ton of hands that is drawing live get a free look at the turn.

My line here, HU, would be exactly how op played it. QQ is a more than decent holding on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misread my post. I didn't say I'd check behind on the flop, but raising him 3x will accomplish the same thing as 4x. The check on the turn was for pot control. You want to play a medium sized pot, not a huge pot. Save them for the big hands. I'm always looking for people who overvalue TP or an overpair at my tables.

[/ QUOTE ]
And I think you misread mine. My point is that if you think you can control the size of the pot by only raising to $13 you are wrong. You re-open the betting so he can push w/e draw or made hand he was planning to push. And the pot is still huge so any action on the turn basically commits you to the pot. What is your play if villain blocks the turn for say $13?

All it does is give him good odds to continue if he is in fact drawing.

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
yes i guess your small raise does have merits although i dont see how we are getting away from this if he donks into us on the turn. like, u think ur gunna fold an overpair to a $15 bet into a $30 pot? no, ull call, and then probably b pot committed on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If calls your flop raise and bet's 1/2 the pot into the turn without a read I'd think more than likely he is trying to build a pot with a monster.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes I admit you can do it at the microlevels and over time get paid off by the QJos hands, but you will never move up without getting beat back down by smarter players who won;t play a big pot with out a big hand. And isn't that the real goal here?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i think this is incorrect, although i may have misunderstood you. From wat i can gather, your basically saying to make sub-optimal plays at a given limit, which are optimal plays at a higher limit, so u dont have trouble wen u move to that new limit. At these micro limits, players will go broke with AJ, KJ, QJ, mayb even JT, just coz players at higher limits dont stack off with these hands mean nothing. Our goal is to play as optimally as possible at any single limit, and then adjust your game after you move up, not the other way around. If ive mis interpreted you then ignore this :P

gnight everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

Well yes that is what I am saying, but for not quite that reason. If you are starting out playing at the micros then yes I think you should play sub optimally at first and take the smaller variance while you get your feet wet. Learn to play the game the right way, not how to play optimally at the micro levels.

Once you can do this, then you can adjust your game for these levels by placing more value into overpair hand, etc. (of course you can also just move up) Now you are making a specific adjustment to your "A" game to fit the game you are in.

When people give advice at the micro levels I think this should come out in the advice. I think it is better to give "correct" advice rather than advice that will work at the micros but get the guy killed when he tries to move up and wonder why he always loses a stack when he has a big pocket pair.

I certainly can't say anyone taking the stand that you should always try to play optimally for the game (or level)is wrong. But for me as I start back at NL play I'd rather get the good plays ingrained in me again and again even at the cost of some profit. Yeah I'll play a few more hands at .05/.1 before I move up and yeah I'll be pissed when I could have pushed an overpair harder, and the same will probably happen at the next level when I move up. But I feel I will have less trouble adapting to the smarter players at the higher levels rather that take that crash while I figure out "oops I can't push that hard anymore here"

Just my opinion. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It's always tough to play agsinst and read flopped sets...

[/ QUOTE ]

I must say I would have probably gone the same line bet 12$ or 13$ on the flop and check behind on the turn, eventhough your giving a free card on the river. It`s pretty hard to put villain on a hand, and I prefer playing a medium size pot here.

[MFpoker]

Let me explain what i was thinking.

villain is 26/17/2.75 after about 250 hands.

Pre-flop: villain is fairly loose and somewhat aggressive. in hind sight maybe i should have raised the flop a little more because most people don't take raises as seriously in heads up and i knew this guy to call crap. another big hand he won with someone else was when he was aggressive with second pair poor kicker (k8 on an A-high board), and then got lucky with 2 pair later in the hand. when he called i figured he had a Ax Kx Qx or something. possibly suited. maybe a low PP. he would have re-raised with a bigger one. I was thinking semi-crap hand.

flop: he bets flops a lot and i have an overpair. i think he's playing a draw aggressively and re-raise. i start to doubt he has a draw a little bit when he calls.

turn: harmless card and a check to me... i really think i'm best. push.

river: oh thank goodness! no spade!

showdown: oh [censored] 9Ts

i put went over the hand with a simulator and i was a very slight 51.5% favorite on the flop. on the turn i was 70.%5.

(.17 x $107) -$34 = -$15.81 (assumed flush draw EV)
(.30 x $107) - $34 = -$1.9 (actual EV)

so either way i ruined his odds on the turn. my regret though is that

a) my read could have been very wrong given the evidence
b) when he was calling bets like $18 does it matter what he has? he's probably calling my push.

of course b) is good in the long run if i have him beat. so i dunno. also, flop reads with data are fairly easy in a lot of instances, but post flop reads get a lot trickier fast. blah....

[RAHZero]

If this is a heads-up game (which it looks like), then I don't see anything wrong with your play. Even good players are never letting go of top pair HU, so your overpair is likely to be good here and be called by a AJ/KJ/QJ type hand very often. And checking behind for pot control on the turn sucks balls on this board, unless you like giving villains free cards when they're on a flush draw (and this is a very classic FD line in a HU game).