I've lost my cahones!!

[ama0330]

We are $80 deep at NL50. Villain is 24/12/2.3 over a big sample and is a meow chow abc run of the mill tag. Could be uNL 2p2 even.

What do you say? Am I teh giant Vag? I think the initial raise was a little small.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $6</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $18</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $12 returned to SB.

Results:
Final pot: $13

[ye1tzen]

Probably. What are the stacks?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
We are $80 deep at NL50.

[/ QUOTE ]

[davidyang]

Does he have a read on you? What's your image at the table? I feel like I would at least call, and see a flop. Folding preflop with kings makes me feel icky, even against a TAG.

[ye1tzen]

[ QUOTE ]
We are $80 deep at NL50.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ack, sorry.
Re-raise should have been bigger. I don't think I could lay it down. I'd really have to have a feel for the table to be sure they had AA.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Does he have a read on you? What's your image at the table? I feel like I would at least call, and see a flop. Folding preflop with kings makes me feel icky, even against a TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

My image is really tight, ive been attacking the button but I am totally behaving myself. About 19vpip I would say.

[SCBielski]

A post explaining the math behind this exact scenario was just made, which basically says never make this fold preflop. I can understand why you are making this laydown but I'd shove personally just because I refuse to fold KK preflop, particularly at uNL. You just see QQ or JJ here too often to fold this at these stakes.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
A post explaining the math behind this exact scenario was just made, which basically says never make this fold preflop. I can understand why you are making this laydown but I'd shove personally just because I refuse to fold KK preflop, particularly at uNL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Link?

[SCBielski]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...;gonew=1#UNREAD (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9047793&amp;an=0&amp;page=0&amp;gone w=1#UNREAD)

[GrinningBuddha]

Never underestimate the ability of your opponents to ignore image and fall back to the basic "I have QQ against the BB, I'm golden!"

I don't fold this here and get stacked if he has AA. &lt;shrug&gt;

[Hank Scorpio]

You're so deep. I might re-raise again and fold to a push

[orange]

[ QUOTE ]
You're so deep. I might re-raise again and fold to a push

[/ QUOTE ]
thats pretty poor...4-betting w. the intention of folding KK is not really great.

i would typically call here OP, but I don't think its too big of a deal.

[ama0330]

Well these were the main questions that I needed to clarify.

1. Given my table image which is squeaky clean, what is his 4 betting range, given that he hasn't done it at all yet?
2. If I call, and the flop comes low, and he leads, what do I do to avoid RIO?
3. If I decide I like my hand, I am basically push or fold here right?
4. Do I want to commit 150bbs to a raise that will only fold worse and be called by better?

I got that far then timed out.


FWIW I just played exactly the same hand against him, he raises SB, I repop with AKo, he folds. Retrospective justification?

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're so deep. I might re-raise again and fold to a push

[/ QUOTE ]
thats pretty poor...4-betting w. the intention of folding KK is not really great.

i would typically call here OP, but I don't think its too big of a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

tbh when I folded I was like "meh, doesn't matter too much really." Glad you feel the same.

[CHUDO]

LOL i bet villian got KK too :P

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL i bet villian got KK too :P

[/ QUOTE ]

I also thought about this, whether a call or a fold is better preflop if you feel like you might be splitting.

[jonyy6788]

These spots come up quite a bit and I've found a majority of the time I'm beat.

Here's the dealio, u got KK, u push and he's calling $60 with AK/QQ/JJ????????

[prodonkey]

I've done this a couple times lately and I've been looking at AA every time. I haven't seen a tag 4 bet without AA or KK in a long time.

[RAHZero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
LOL i bet villian got KK too :P

[/ QUOTE ]

I also thought about this, whether a call or a fold is better preflop if you feel like you might be splitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously with money already in the pot, calling for a split is better than folding.

Yeah, your RR was too small, I think $7.50 or $8 is good here. As played, I call the 4-bet and try to get it all-in on the flop. I'm a pretty straight-forward TAG most of the time, and I've 4-bet QQ and AKs in these spots before, so folding here seems pretty weak.

[ QUOTE ]



1. Given my table image which is squeaky clean, what is his 4 betting range, given that he hasn't done it at all yet?
2. If I call, and the flop comes low, and he leads, what do I do to avoid RIO?
3. If I decide I like my hand, I am basically push or fold here right?
4. Do I want to commit 150bbs to a raise that will only fold worse and be called by better?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. AA-QQ, AKs? For some, this may only be AA or KK. I may also be biased from playing NL 100 lately, where the games are really aggro.

2. Shove flop. After that action, he never folds QQ there if he's invested that much.

3. No, if you shove PF here you only get called by AA or KK, the QQ and AKs will get away.

4. Absolutely not, which is why you call here and play poker on the flop.

[Paul Thomson]

your preflop raise to $6 sucks! make a real raise and probably get it all in.

[Voy Por Ustedes]

I've seen as weak as 99 in this spot; though that was a Scandi. I would never fold this PF.