Why Write?

[theBruiser500]

What are good reasons for writing, a book? Writing a book takes a long time, it's not physical (so not fun), it's solitary, parts of it are tedious. To me it seems like writing is very much about the end result and the process is something to slog through. The end result is a great book, then people can say "wow look at Danny he's a gifted writer", "danny great book". It's for compliments and fame, they are both powerful but something to strive for?

I'm writing a poker book now and it's taking a long time because my motivation for writing it this whole time has been unclear. Now I've put so much time into it... one thing I tend to do is quit something in the middle of it, so now my motivation can be to finish this project for the simple reason that I started it. Hopefully that will work. Thoughts on any parts of this?

[Borodog]

I definitely have a love/hate relationship with writing. I sometimes hate writing, for the slog that you mentioned, but I love having written. I don't know about for fame, since none of my fiction is published, but for the sense of personal satisfaction.

You've put a lot of investment in time and effort into what you've written so far. If you abandon it now, all of that intellectual capital you've built up there is essentially lost. On the other hand, the investment you've made up to this point is a sunk cost, and only you can decide if the expected value of completion is greater than the costs of completion from this point on.

Edit: PS, good luck, and I hope you choose to finish rather than quit.

[fish2plus2]

you answered your own question kid.

[theBruiser500]

who do you think you're calling kid you punk. also i don't think i did...

[tannenj]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not physical (so not fun)

[/ QUOTE ]

???

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
it's not physical (so not fun), it's solitary, parts of it are tedious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its a preference thing. For some people it is fun. For some people they enjoy the tedeium and the process of it all, of grouping words together to make something "beautiful". They enjoy crafting a story.

Now its like anything else, im sure even the people who enjoy it get frustrated by it and at times dont like it. But in the end I imagine its like a journy. Many people find road trips awesome, yet driving down boring stretches of highway can be considered very sucky.

Also, many people find physical things very unfun. Riding a bicycle across america to many would be considered the most unfun thing they could do.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Zeno]

Why do anything, Dan? That's rhetorical, please don't answer.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm writing a poker book now and it's taking a long time because my motivation for writing it this whole time has been unclear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you admit your motivation is unclear for writing the book, this has the definite possiblitly to translate into the book itself and make it less than your best effort and damage the subject matter, organization, and writing style and tone. But that is just a side observation.

[ QUOTE ]
It's for compliments and fame, they are both powerful but something to strive for?


[/ QUOTE ]

Approval from your fellow man? See Mark Twain and others.

Fame is no sure test of merit, but only a probablility of such: it is an accident, not a property of man. -Thomas Caryle.

-Zeno

[Slap My Jack]

You seem to be asking about the reasons for writing your specific book, and not so much of a general case for writing.

Many people get some satisfaction out of being productive and/or doing work that produces something; this seems central to your motivation.

Another reason is to record your thoughts, getting them out of your head. It is also a process that attempts to enforce an order on thought. Your reasoning and ideas become subject to analysis, and that is part of why it is difficult. We all have vague ideas or conceptions or paths of thinking. Writing attempts to order and justify them, or explain how they are logical. Doesn't always work, but the discovery of weaknesses can be quite beneficial to yourself, particularly if you're writing on poker strategy.

[cbloom]

Bruiser, I'm trying to get into writing and here's why :

1. I like working out my thoughts on a topic and recording them, I find that it greatly clarifies my own thinking. Sometimes when I write something up in detail I realize I was actually all wrong about it and I learn something. edit : pretty much what Slap said

2. You can make decent money with pretty small time investment and you can work from home, make your own hours, etc. (it's very unlikely you will make big money, but it does happen if you get lucky)

3. If you write fiction, chicks will dig you; obviously if you write a poker book or something technical you will only get the love of fat internet guys.

4. Writing a significant book on a topic gives you credentials as an "expert" on that topic (deserved or not) which can easily lead to lots of other gigs, such as lucrative speaking engagements, TV appearances, articles for newspapers & magazines, etc.

5. If you become respected/popular as a writer, you can get "fluff" writing gigs, such as travel writing, food reviewing, or "what it's like to go to soccer camp" which are basically do fun [censored] for free and write about it, which is a pretty sweet deal.

[disjunction]

I once heard a writer on NPR say something like this:

You will only be a successful writer if you can't not write.

[wet work]

I think you really need to find out your motivation for writing the book. Without an answer to that question you may not be able to really put yourself fully into it, which I think you really need to do. I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know. Is it money? A strong desire to impart the knowledge you have? Or any of a million other reasons?

It's a bit concerning that you find the process of writing boring/tedious. It seems like that would make your motivation for doing it that much more important, almost to the point of feeling that you absolutely HAVE to do it in order to finish it. And finish it to a degree where you're proud of the finished product. Just wanting to finish it because you've already invested alot of time may be enough to get it done. But are you going to be happy with the end result if you just slog it out just to be done with it? You should probably either immerse yourself fully into it or abandon it altogether.

Why write?
I guess there are a ton of answers to this one. But I feel true writers write because they have no choice, it's just what they are/do. To use an example from this site, I think KKF (who I don't know at all) writes because he has to. It's just a part of his make-up as a person. IMO people like this don't even have a choice in the matter. Even if noone ever read their writing they would still be writing. I also feel, for the most part, that these are the people who actually end up being published and making a career out of writing.

just kind of rambling, hope some of that made sense.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's not physical (so not fun), it's solitary, parts of it are tedious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its a preference thing. For some people it is fun. For some people they enjoy the tedeium and the process of it all, of grouping words together to make something "beautiful". They enjoy crafting a story.

Now its like anything else, im sure even the people who enjoy it get frustrated by it and at times dont like it. But in the end I imagine its like a journy. Many people find road trips awesome, yet driving down boring stretches of highway can be considered very sucky.

Also, many people find physical things very unfun. Riding a bicycle across america to many would be considered the most unfun thing they could do.

Different strokes for different folks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar interesting post. I understand why somone would want to make something beautiful with a movie, or art, or music but not with a book. Maybe I see books as more a way to get information then as art.

[theBruiser500]

"Since you admit your motivation is unclear for writing the book, this has the definite possiblitly to translate into the book itself and make it less than your best effort and damage the subject matter, organization, and writing style and tone. But that is just a side observation."

Yeah you're right thanks. "Approval from your fellow man? See Mark Twain and others." What about Mark Twain? I actually started reading his autobiography a little while ago on Andyfox's recommendation. I had a hell of a time finding it, bookstores don't like to publish it, they'd rather publish other people writing about his life instead for some reason.

[theBruiser500]

"Why write?
I guess there are a ton of answers to this one. But I feel true writers write because they have no choice, it's just what they are/do. To use an example from this site, I think KKF (who I don't know at all) writes because he has to. It's just a part of his make-up as a person. IMO people like this don't even have a choice in the matter. Even if noone ever read their writing they would still be writing. I also feel, for the most part, that these are the people who actually end up being published and making a career out of writing. "

Maybe KKF or one of these people would be kind enough to explain themselves to us here. Cbloom, very practical reasons.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
bookstores don't like to publish it,

[/ QUOTE ]

First, bookstores generally just distribute and sell books, publishing firms do the actually publishing etc. If I didn't like you I would not be such a nit.

But yes, finding Twain's Autobiography on a self will not happen often. Most larger booksellers or chain stores can order the book for you, or amazon would have it I'm sure.

Reading what Andy Fox recommends is always a wise choice. I hope you finish reading Twain's autobiography (the one edited by Charlas Neider I would guess).

It is more about the concept of self-approval (and all the antecedents and ramifications that entails) than fame that you should read Mark Twain. My specific recomendation is a short essay Twain wrote in 1901: Cone-pone Opinions.

-Zeno

[Potvaliant]

[ QUOTE ]
My specific recomendation is a short essay Twain wrote in 1901: Cone-pone Opinions.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

Corn-pone Opinions.

Sorry, I'm pretty much always a nit.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand why somone would want to make something beautiful with a movie, or art, or music but not with a book. Maybe I see books as more a way to get information then as art.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't you ever read a beautiful book? A beautiful story? The word beautiful could be misleading, but you know what I mean - a collection of words on a paper that when you read it you felt like going on some unique journey?

"A book must be an ice-axe to break the seas frozen inside our soul." - these are words by Kafka. I think that seeing books as a way to transmit information or something like that, is really missing something huge about words and humanity.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My specific recomendation is a short essay Twain wrote in 1901: Cone-pone Opinions.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

Corn-pone Opinions.

Sorry, I'm pretty much always a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Damn poor typing skills on my part, or a from of dyslexia.

-Zeno

PS- Thanks for the correction, the title was something critical to get right.

[keikiwai]

I'll take your question as a general one and not just about your poker book.

Why do people write?

There are many reasons.

1) Some people must write. They have things inside that need to get out or need to be worked through. And for them this is best done through writing. Some people sculpt, some make music, some write. Examples could be if you've gone through a life changing experience like watching a close one die, getting over a sickness or knowing you'll sucumb to it, or succeeding at something you've always wanted to do, or discovering something very bad or very good. So it's part digestion, part getting out of your system, and part sharing.

Writing is very good at this because it is a solitary process. If you want to make a movie, you have to deal with many other people involved in the process. Often you are not ready for this until after writing.

2) I find writing physical. I enjoy typing and seeing how fast I can go.

3) Some poeple want to "leave something behind." There are many ways to do this, and one of the ways is writing. It is a way to leave an imprint on the world that will last for a long time.

4) It's a way to make money if you're good or popular.

I'm sure there's many other reasons to do it.

Most people I know about who write do not love it all the time. Many authors describe the writing process as something like giving birth (or what they imagine giving birth is like). The process is painfull and ugly but the results are good. Some writers enjoy the solitary toil, but I'm sure no one enjoys it all the time.

Try making a long term goal for when you will finish the whole thing, and make short term goals for individual chapters or pages. That way there's light at the end of the tunnel.

gl

[asofel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My specific recomendation is a short essay Twain wrote in 1901: Cone-pone Opinions.

-Zeno

[/ QUOTE ]

Corn-pone Opinions.

Sorry, I'm pretty much always a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Damn poor typing skills on my part, or a from of dyslexia.

-Zeno

PS- Thanks for the correction, the title was something critical to get right.

[/ QUOTE ]

awesome

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
I once heard a writer on NPR say something like this:

You will only be a successful writer if you can't not write.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was going to say this exactly. i don't see how you can truly be a great writer any other way.

otherwise, it's just a variation on homework

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I once heard a writer on NPR say something like this:

You will only be a successful writer if you can't not write.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was going to say this exactly. i don't see how you can truly be a great writer any other way.

otherwise, it's just a variation on homework

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, I don't think this is true at all. A ton of the greatest writers in history did it for the money. People like Dickens, lots of beat types like Henry Miller, maybe Shakespeare, Pushkin, etc. etc.

edit : the whole idea that you should enjoy your work and that you can only succeed if you "do what you love" is a totally modern invention that's only been around since the 1950's or so.

[juanez]

[ QUOTE ]
edit : the whole idea that you should enjoy your work and that you can only succeed if you "do what you love" is a totally modern invention that's only been around since the 1950's or so.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I read somewhere a while ago (no, I have no source, sorry) that the VAST majority of people who "do what they love" are lower-income folks. That's fine if you're cool with that, of course, but the "do what you love and the money will come" notion is sort of a new age myth. How many artists have a "day job"?

[fish2plus2]

Whenever I read a great book, I want to write because I have seen greatness and want to be great myself. I am sure there are better examples of writers on 2+2 than me though.


I have alot of respect for writers. Its not like guys playing in a band, getting drunk and getting girls, or even someone painting who has something to show to peope regardless that will impress them. Writing seems the loneliest of all the arts.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Writing seems the loneliest of all the arts.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is extremely lonely, however most great writes IMO had/has this tendency for solitude to begin with, so in a way writing does not make them more lonely than what they already are, and might even serve them as some kind of a comfort, last stop before real self-destruction and non-functional life.

A writer told me once that if not for writing he probably couldn't do anything "normative" in life at all, so it is amazing for him that something that he sees as almost a disease, or a symptom of a disease - writing - can help him gain a real status in the real world of "normal" people (he is a well known writer in Israel).

[Dominic]

writing sucks. having written, however, is a great feeling.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I once heard a writer on NPR say something like this:

You will only be a successful writer if you can't not write.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was going to say this exactly. i don't see how you can truly be a great writer any other way.

otherwise, it's just a variation on homework

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, I don't think this is true at all. A ton of the greatest writers in history did it for the money. People like Dickens, lots of beat types like Henry Miller, maybe Shakespeare, Pushkin, etc. etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are very likely fewer of these than you think (and probably close to none over the last 50 years). serious literature isn't really something someone gets into for "the money". it might be something they keep doing for that reason, but the hurdles you have to overcome early on pretty much weeds 99% of those people out. or, they get published b/c they're famous already (sitcom stars, etc), but what they write isn't all that good.

there are just too many other ways to make money that are so much easier.

note: i'm talking merely about "serious literature", not self-help books or trashy romance novels or bad genre books or whatever. people who aspire to be great writers, not merely best-selling authors. (not that the two can't converge. just look at Stephen King)

[Phat Mack]

I think the best reason for writing a book about poker is that it will force you to clarify your thinking.

When you write, you sit in judgment of your own thoughts, and it is extremely difficult to let something muddled get by. To me, this is the greatest joy, and the greatest frustration, of writing.

[maryfield48]

In addition to all the reasons given above, there are a few who write because if they didn't, The Lounge would never have any threads.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
What are good reasons for writing a book?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am writing because writing a no-limit book is an interesting project and cool thing to do and have done. Also, I have some ideas about the game that I wanted to clarify by writing about them, and I like to teach (not sure about my motivations for liking teaching). Another big part is the newness of it. I like to do new things.

Money's not a big motivator, but is obviously welcome. There are many other uses of my time that would provide equivalent or better income. However, I will cash those checks and enjoy doing it, plus I especially look forward to leveraging whatever free beer equity results.

I don't know about fame for a poker writer. Maybe within the small subset of the poker community that reads and digests books. The appreciation of people I respect is far more motivating than fame. Also, a downside is it seems poker books are magnets for negative criticism.

I have to exert a small amount of willpower to write. But I like doing it and get into it, sometimes like a mad scientist, especially when well rested. It's harder to do after a full-time job and busy family and community life. I'm a little envious of those who can put many of their best hours into their projects, writing included.

[theBruiser500]

Thanks for the responses all, this forum is a nice change from every other forum on this site.

[cbloom]

BTW I also started writing a poker book but got burned out. I'm not enough of an expert on poker to really write a book, and don't have a name that would sell copies, but there was one concept that I wanted to teach which has never been in a poker book before. That concept is the Bayesian approach to hand analysis, in which you use prior probabilities and conditional probabilities to compute the probabilities of future outcomes. I believe it is the best way to authoratatively analyze poker situations. Maybe I should just condense it into a little article...

This is part of the problem with writing "to work it out for yourself" or "to get it out of your system". If those are your motivations then you have zero motivation to actually finish it.

[wet work]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses all, this forum is a nice change from every other forum on this site.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea this forum is shaping up to be what I really come to the 'other topics' for. I basically just lurk in the strat forums but as far as other topics go I'm drawn to the discussions that have some sort of substance and I feel I've learned/been exposed to a lot of stuff I might not otherwise be.

Anyway, have you considered possibly just putting what you have so far on the side until you feel you're ready to come back to it. I write songs and often come up with parts of songs that I just can't finish. It will just sit there unfinished and then out of the blue the rest just comes. I can think of one tune in particular where this period was several years. There's no rule that says you have to finish it right now.

I don't know if you've been using another person to read what you have so far but I find this helps me a ton with songwriting. It doesn't have to be an editor or anything, maybe just someone whose opinions or knowledge you value. I do think you'd want to choose someone that will give you honest criticism though anything else would most likely be useless to you. Alot of times I've found that having another person involved, for me at least, can be a real catalyst. If you really want to finish this thing you should be willing to do whatever it takes. Just based on what I've read of your other posts you seem like an adventurous/highly motivated person. I'm sure you have a number of people in your life that would be willing to help you out.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I also started writing a poker book but got burned out. I'm not enough of an expert on poker to really write a book, and don't have a name that would sell copies, but there was one concept that I wanted to teach which has never been in a poker book before. That concept is the Bayesian approach to hand analysis, in which you use prior probabilities and conditional probabilities to compute the probabilities of future outcomes. I believe it is the best way to authoratatively analyze poker situations. Maybe I should just condense it into a little article...

This is part of the problem with writing "to work it out for yourself" or "to get it out of your system". If those are your motivations then you have zero motivation to actually finish it.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

Sklansky has written extensively on Bayesian analysis of hands.

[Cornell Fiji]

I have not read all of the responses but I have always seen the creation of art as a human's effort to achieve immortality.

I don't know if you will consider your poker book to be art; if not, then your intrinsic desire to teach might be a primary motivating factor

[Duke]

In "The Selfish Gene", Dawkins makes mention of communicating via vast distances, and the time lag involved. To summarize the concept, think of instant messaging. Conversations go something on the order of:

A:Sup?

B:Nothing. Sup with you?

A:Got some new movies, how you running?

B:[censored]. What movies?

A:<list of movies>

B:Oh nice I saw <X> and it's good.

Now, imagine if you had to wait for 4 minutes between messages, because of transmission delays. You'd want to say more in each statement (basically everything you planned on saying that didn't require a response to trigger it), so it might look more like:

A: Hey man, I got some new Movies. <list of movies>. Did you see any of them? What should I watch first? How are you doing, and are you running good?

B: Yeah, I saw <X>, and it was pretty good. I don't know about the others. I'm still running [censored], so I'll probably have to get a real job at some point.

As the time lag becomes greater, you'll try to put more into each message, because you won't be getting sufficient responses to split it up.

A book is basically that, but taken to the logical extreme. You put a whole lot into it, because you won't likely have feedback from readers at all, and certainly not from people far in the future that you'll be speaking to through that creation.

Dawkins used the idea to address genes carrying data from one generation to the next, and not being able to rely on any input to change the message, but I feel that it applies to the goal of most books: To send a message to peers and future generations that you'll never meet, but have something that you'd like to pass on to.

Much as Einstein regarded as Politics being for the moment, and an equation being for eternity, a book can speak throughout the ages, where a forum post will be forgotten in short order.

[LearnedfromTV]

The reason I write is that I like to think about and interpret the world. My brain is very restless and disorganized; writing forces me to organize and articulate the reactions I have to what happens around me. Mostly essays, but also some poetry and fiction.

I have never tried to publish but if I ever write anything I think is good enough and/or fits with a certain publication I will try. I've nearly sent some pieces to a few magazines a couple times, but I always decide they aren't good enough. I've also had thoughts of creating a website to post things I've written, but fame and money are not primary motivators. I don't have a blog; the journal format isn't my taste.