NL50: Flatcalling a minraise with a set?

[gir]

Villain is 50/18/3 with a read that he'll minraise a flush on the river (he's done it before). Given this specific read, do I flat call this?

I didn't bet the flop or turn because of the tricky plays that were going on against villain. My only question is how to play the river.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($109)
SB ($48.75)
BB ($65.50)
UTG ($31.88)
MP ($36.90)
Hero ($322.76)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, Button calls $2.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds.

Flop: ($6.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($6.25) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($6.25) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $20</font>, Hero...

[HighestCard]

I call pretty quickly here. It looks like you are attempting to steal the pot. Even with your read I think you are ahead enough here to call.

[gir]

I'm calling...at the very least. I'm asking if I should be doing more than that...ie. Raising.

[and12006]

If he's min-raised a flush before he could just be doing the same thing so a call is fine I think because if you re-raise and he goes over the top etc. then you lose your raise, by calling you just stand to lose that if infact he has the flush.

[gir]

You're right...I was just being results oriented. He had a set of 3s and I'd been playing a long time trying to get his stack specifically.

[RAHZero]

What kind of flush checks behind that turn (except maybe the nut flush)? I dunno, I really doubt he's got the flush here. The problem is, I don't really know what calls a 3-bet here that you have beat, except maybe a horribly played QJ (or 33, which he had, and played terribly). I think I just flat call this, since a lot of hands we have beat will fold to the 3-bet and we've got a really ugly decision if he shoves.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
He had a set of 3s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I love slowplay donks.

Bet for value - call minraise is probably fine. Given the fact that this particular sort of donk would never bet the flush on the turn, no matter how low, I wonder if a case can be made for check-call on the river?

Obviously in this particular case, check-call cost you money. However, there are more cases where he hits a flush and check-call saves you money, and possibly other cases where he bets top pair or busted draws or who knows what but folds to your bet.

If he checks something like top two behind then betting the river for value is probably a clear choice, but if he "senses weakness" a lot and expects to take the pot away from you then check-call is an awesome way to maximize value. Or conversely, if he'd fold AQ or two low pair to your bet here then there's not a lot of value to be had by betting.

So -- all told, saving money to a flush, making money from a bluff or weaker made hand, and losing value for this particular set-over-set, I think the case for check-calling the river could be made, but it depends on the villain.

[gir]

He actually has a really messed up tell where he'll over-bet with nothing and small bet with a great hand.

Great post by the way. Thanks (and I see your point). I suppose it has to be read dependant for a case to check-call, otherwise, I'd c-bet the flop, check the turn, and bet the river.

[ahnuld]

meh. If we had 50 bux id consider raising. This deep its a call always.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flush checks behind that turn (except maybe the nut flush)? I dunno, I really doubt he's got the flush here. The problem is, I don't really know what calls a 3-bet here that you have beat, except maybe a horribly played QJ (or 33, which he had, and played terribly). I think I just flat call this, since a lot of hands we have beat will fold to the 3-bet and we've got a really ugly decision if he shoves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think a nut flush can slowplay sometimes on the turn if opponent shows weakness?

[AKQJ10]

For some reason donks often slowplay non-nut flushes. You'd think it's obvious that there ar potentially seven outs to beat them (if Hero has one flush card), but they're unfazed.

[Requin]

Yeah I call. Fwiw I bet the turn though. Guy's not very good, might call you with bare heart, might fold a better pp, might save you from being bluffed off the best hand on the river, you often have outs ect. I think a bet is +ev with any heart in your hand here, and since you practically have air I'm not worried about turning my hand into a (semi)bluff.

[thetruest]

why do you think he played the 33 terribly

[RAHZero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What kind of flush checks behind that turn (except maybe the nut flush)? I dunno, I really doubt he's got the flush here. The problem is, I don't really know what calls a 3-bet here that you have beat, except maybe a horribly played QJ (or 33, which he had, and played terribly). I think I just flat call this, since a lot of hands we have beat will fold to the 3-bet and we've got a really ugly decision if he shoves.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you think he played the 33 terribly?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn he had bottom set with three to a flush on board and checked behind. That's the definition of donkalicious slowplaying.

[thetruest]

[ QUOTE ]
If he checks something like top two behind then betting the river for value is probably a clear choice, but if he "senses weakness" a lot and expects to take the pot away from you then check-call is an awesome way to maximize value. Or conversely, if he'd fold AQ or two low pair to your bet here then there's not a lot of value to be had by betting.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why, or who, would not bet AQ on that flop. Possibly a complete idiot would slowplay two pair, but even then i don't see anyone doing it other than possibly a complete newbie to hold em.

[AKQJ10]

On a tangent: Heads-up in some particular one-on-one battles against aggressive and thinking opponents, I might occasionally check behind with TPTK or top two, even on a two-suited board. But I'd probably not do it with both a flush and an obvious straight draw. The reasoning is that I'm giving up value by giving draws a free card, but my single opponent is unlikely to have that one particular draw, and in return I'm reminding my aggressive and thinking opponent that a flop check doesn't mean it's open season to steal the pot.

But again, that doesn't apply here on a S+F board, and it wouldn't involve checking a third-suited turn. So you're right -- my analysis above considering AQ isn't very good.

[corsakh]

Probably not. I don't think he is going to call a 3bet without a flush.