How to beat calling stations?

[kekedarius]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($20.45)
BB ($95.55)
UTG ($26.80)
MP ($19.95)
Hero ($54.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, SB calls $2.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($8) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($8) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, SB calls $7, UTG folds.

River: ($22) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $22

Villains are about 60/5/0. Both players have a history of calling down every single street with as little as bottom pair bottom kicker. What are you supposed to do against this type of player? Cbetting seems to only bloat the pot, and value betting can only be done if you actually make your hand. I'm at a loss on how to go about this.

[raistlinx]

You have to wait for your made hands and then value bet them. Running the nuts into them always works well. It's not fun poker but it is the only thing that works. Toss c-betting out the window unless you have some good outs to improve.

[Hank Scorpio]

check the turn there

[kekedarius]

[ QUOTE ]
You have to wait for your made hands and then value bet them. Running the nuts into them always works well. It's not fun poker but it is the only thing that works. Toss c-betting out the window unless you have some good outs to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

So just check/fold any time you don't nail a flop? That sounds so wrong /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[raistlinx]

I know. But it is the only way to beat them.

[lynxman73]

the key to beating calling stations is losing NOTHING when you miss, which is not that hard to do. just value bet. don't cbet cuz all the great pros do it on tv and you see everybody on 2 plus 2 do it or you've had them tell you to do it. adapt, adapt, adapt!!!!

[AKQJ10]

If they're true calling stations, they're not going to bet much. So you'll be checking a lot of flops behind insteaxd of CBing, which is great when you catch cards like here. Otherwise just run all the cards out and see who wins, which will more often be you since you're starting with good hands.

I don't think checking the turn is correct here -- with two opponents and no flop bet, you're paranoid to assume someone must have a ten -- but be very ready to give up your top pair, depending on the identity of any raiser of course.

It'd have to be some sort of awful calling station to make betting the river correct here. If he'd often look you up with a pair of nines or less then it's defensible.

[sputum]

Just bet when you want them to call. Nothing better than a guy who checks and calls.
As for the hand in question - I like betting the turn for value but would probably make it less, around $4-5. Like river check.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm at a loss on how to go about this

[/ QUOTE ]
What sort of opponents do you prefer? TAGs? Nits? Send your stations this way, I'll deroll them /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Against true stations I like to play less aggressively in the early rounds. Bloating the pot early often makes them calling less of a mistake, especially against shorties as you are here. I'm still thinking this through but if your preflop raise has a fold equity of near-zero then why not raise less? (I'm always raising this here of course) maybe $1.50? This gives you max IO per player of 14-1 ish plus rather than 8/1 and 10/1 and imo this helps the skilled player more, gets you a free turn card just as often if you decide to take it etc.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Toss c-betting out the window unless you have some good outs to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's one more nit to pick with this. C-betting has two purposes: to protect a dodgy hand with showdown value and to semibluff with a hand that missed the flop. It's not always clear which is which. If you CB AK on a JT7 flop, you're betting for value/protection if your opponents happen to hold A6s and 64s. You're betting as a bluff if one opponent happens to hold 44 or T9.

Calling stations are frustrating to play against because they'll call down with 44 there, so you definitely should CB less. But if you can make a decent guess that you're ahead -- say with AK unimproved heads-up on the flop -- you should still bet to protect your hand. Any hand without an ace or king has six outs to beat you.

[raistlinx]

There are just too many ways a board of JT7 could have connected with the calling stations. Now if you have a flush draw and gutshot straight draw to go along with your two overcards then by all means cbet it, even just a flush draw. But with only 6 outs and not all of them clean I just don't see the value in cbetting into calling stations.

[kfactorx]

There are a few different ways to play with calling stations, but I think the safest (not necessarily most profitable) would have to be ONLY betting when you hit. Although this might not get as much money as other strategies, it will almost surely make you money (and surely, a good amount too).

[bohus04]

value bet them to death,
i think checking turn is bad and im definitly betting it even thought a bit less

[Esection]

if they call everything, only bet when you want them to call.

[DoGMaTiCMD]

tighten up bro. It sucks to play micro, as it often doesnt prepare you for a nl100/200 game.

Use pot control for your mediocre hands and take advantage of their bad play when you have a very good hand.

I find just really thinking about what you have to gain and lose, and reallly analysing the situation with the time you have to do so will make your winrate and skill really jump.

[miw210]

Value bet when you have it

[AKQJ10]

I don't think you got my point. If the calling station has Q9 on a JT7r flop, you don't have six outs. You have an immense number of "outs" (all 33 blanks or aces, but you need two of them, or to improve with something like an A - 9 board). If you knew what your opponent had, you would decide to protect ace-high and charge Q9 a huge price to draw out.

In that case your bet with AK isn't in hopes that Q9 will fold; it's that Q9 will pay to draw out and miss.

In practice, heads-up you have no idea whether you're against 44 or Q9, so you sometimes make a bet that's part semibluff (where you do have a six-outer) and part protective value bet. The semibluff portion is worthless against a CS, so you will CB less often, but you will sometimes still wish to protect your nut ace-high.

Just assuming AK is always behind and drawing to six outs if it doesn't pair the flop is the wrong way to think about AK, particularly heads-up.

[raistlinx]

No I get your point, I just don't agree with it. You are assuming he is on a draw. While one possibility is that he is drawing (and I agree with you if we know he is) there are many hands he could have with a J or a T in it.

If you have AK and don't hit the flop you don't have a hand to protect you have a semi-bluff and we have already agreed that is not a smart play against calling stations.

[AKQJ10]

The point isn't that you know he's on a draw; the point is that you don't know, and it's dubious to always passively check it down and give him all the free cards he desires in the assumption that he's already paired.

[raistlinx]

Against a normal player yes, but not against a calling station. You will essentially be bluffing off your chips on three streets to find out if he was on a draw or not.

[Triggerle]

I have recently (15k hands ago) begun to adapt a style against calling stations that involves letting them run me over, sometimes for hours, while trying to lose the least and then make it all back and then some once I have a hand.

Sure it is painful to watch a complete retard amass a huge stack by being lucky and me being passive but I find it much more painful to give my money away aggressively when there is zero fold equity.

The important thing is to only do this to the calling stations and at the same time play your normal game against the TAGs at the table.

[Angrymoog]

I agree with Broadway on this one, in the case of AK at least. Your cbet has no value as a semibluff, but it would be technically a value bet if opponent is unpaired, which is 60% of the time, and it lets you see the next card with a little larger pot when you do hit.

[CHUDO]

Against CS i play passive until i catch at least two pair then make them pay for the last time they caught that river streight after i overbet the pot, easy money but takes time and patience.

The most annoying thing about calling stations is that the usually leave after they get lucky for a lot of money cos they know they r gonna lose it