Can someone please explain...

[VorShot]

How come every time someone has an over pair like AA or KK and gets check raised all in, everyone says call.

Almost every time i call a check raise push with a hand like AA or KK, it's looking at a set or two pair.

Every time i push AK preflop, i'm looking at KK or AA.

Now, i only have 26k hands, but from what i can tell, i'm watching my stack leave more often then not when i call all in bets or shove all in againts a raise.

Or hands like someone posted here as of recent,

Someone has top set in Position, they bet, get called, the turn fills a flush, everyone says bet about 2/3s pot, and if you get check raised all in, call.

I mean...if the flush just hit why would these fish (even though they are fish) suddenly decide to check raise all in with mid pair?

I really am trying to figure this out. I see winning players say to keep playing situations like these, but every time i do, i'm loosing a stack.

Here are examples of hands...They are not all hands where i lost (as i don't want to make it easy).

(Also, i'm not sure why the converter suddenly decided to not have stack sizes, but in all these hands, effective stacks were 95-100ish BBs)

-----------------------------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.5</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1.6, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.6</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises all-in $14.9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $8.3</font>.

---------------------------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.4</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.2, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises to $2.4</font>, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $9.6</font>

---------------------------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.6</font>, 5 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($1.85, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.85</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises all-in $9.1</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, CO calls, 2 folds, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $0.45</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($1.4, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $1.4</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $6</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $10.15</font>

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
How come every time someone has an over pair like AA or KK and gets check raised all in, everyone says call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they overvalue TPTK/Overpair hands. I've played at .05/.1 FTP and unless you have a read on them that says they are a complete idiot expect a check-raise all in to mean what it suggests. People know that people will call so they push their monsters.

Unless you have a read on them fold.

[Archon_Wing]

Big pot= big hands, but entitles more variance.

Plus this is more situational. Also, it's generally assumed people at these stakes are really bad and will felt random [censored]. In fact, you can still see people doing the same crap at higher levels if you look at BBV. But this is situational, and sometimes you have to be wary of who you're going against. And don't you think that the results for the hands you select would be kinda skewed? It's easier to remember the hands where you lose stacks and easier to forget the ones where people do stupid crap and we don't realize what they have.

Hand 1: You can fold, unless villain has been known to do this; it's a ridiculous over bet on a pretty coordinated board. His range can include a lot of two pair hands.Also, your pf raise needs to account for the limpers

Hand 2: Call and reevaluate the turn? Once again, your pf raise needs to account for the limpers

Hand 3: I don't know, I don't think people check raise their flush draws. I may call sometimes

Hand 4: Board is dry but he could be overplaying an overpair. I'd say it's half and half.

Also you don't have to pot the flop every time. I think mixing in regular continuation bets is productive.

[Check_The_Nuts]

Vor - you may be raising too tight out of the blinds. Three of Four of these hands are from the blinds. Also I'd say the last one you could fold. The others are pretty blah and I'd need stats or something to give a decent opinion....

[VorShot]

But i can look at Poker Tracker and see certain things, such as i AM winning with AA, but it's because of all the small pots i pick up, or the times i'm able to get it all in preflop.

If i play a big pots after the flop, it's very rare that i come out the winner.

I spent a lot of time looking over Poker Tracker before i made this post, so while you are right, i might remember losing when i do, but looking over PT's hands can show me that the times i see someone check raise, i know that i'm losing more often then not.

One of the reasons i AM a winning player with AA is because i stopped stacking off with it.

[VorShot]

So it all boils down to, lots of people here over value over pairs and top pair?

[raistlinx]

Yep. Take everything you read here with a grain of salt. Just because someone says to do it here doesn't mean they know what they are talking about. Especially me LOL

Seriously though, save the big pots with A for when you get your money in before the flop. Pros look to play medium pots with AA after the flop not call check raise all-in's

[VorShot]

That's pretty much how i've been doing.

Everyone here's only line is;
Well, it's micro, so he's a moron, call everything.

[VorShot]

Here's a prime example (and the reason i started looking over PT)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post9030657 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9030657&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post 9030657)

Bet 2/3s, call a shove?!
Just doesn't make any sense.

[raistlinx]

They are wrong.

Of course "it depends" as there are exceptions of course. Say some one raises and you reraise. They raise you back and now you just call to disguise your hand. If the flop comes 843 you can be pretty sure you have the best hand. But if someone just called you pre-flop and then check raises you all in, unless it's a small amount to call you are better letting it go. People will push all in with AJ and they hit TPTK and have a short stack, but not with a full stack.

[raistlinx]

This is a little different. You have top set and even if you are behind you have 10 outs to win. You are betting the turn here because it is unlikely he has a flush and you don't want to give free card and see the 4th heart on the river.

I like betting 1/2 the pot because it does not tie you to it if he rerises all in but small enough that someone with a two pair or a good flush draw might call. If you bet the pot not only do you have to call because of the pot odds and your 10 outs, but you are also forcing your opponent to play correctly if you are ahead right now, while you are making a bigger error those times you are behind. Many people will call unprofitably with a flush draw on the flop believing if they hit they will make up for it. Don't prove them right. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[prodonkey]

I just checked out my PT stats, this month so far I've had AA 36 times.. i've won 94.44% of the time with them. Of those 36 times.. 4 were big pots with AA vs KK or I flopped a set vs someone that had something decent, and 2 I stacked someone mid stacks with top pair. Most were small pots, picking up the blinds or c-betting and taking the pot.

You have to look at them in context, instead of it being OMFG AA, or KK.. its I have 1 pair. If someone check raises you all in on the turn, how often is 1 pair good?

[VorShot]

Next to freak'n never.

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a little different. You have top set and even if you are behind you have 10 outs to win. You are betting the turn here because it is unlikely he has a flush and you don't want to give free card and see the 4th heart on the river.

I like betting 1/2 the pot because it does not tie you to it if he rerises all in but small enough that someone with a two pair or a good flush draw might call. If you bet the pot not only do you have to call because of the pot odds and your 10 outs, but you are also forcing your opponent to play correctly if you are ahead right now, while you are making a bigger error those times you are behind. Many people will call unprofitably with a flush draw on the flop believing if they hit they will make up for it. Don't prove them right. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant the comments that said call a river shove.

[Spanky1974]

Much of the time at uNL the villains bets give their hand away. I don't see many weak players check raising all-in just for the hell of it. Sometimes an agressive player or a maniac will do this if they see you make a lot of laydowns, but you should be able to spot a maniac and play accordingly. If a passive player takes a line that is designed to get your stack in, it usually means a monster hand.

[prodonkey]

EXACTLY! There are a lot of players that actually think a little bit even in the lower levels. While in the past they may have been doing something basically almost randomly.

[Bowlboy]

A lot of the time that you want to felt AA post flop is in a pot that's been at least 3 bet before the flop, and the flop comes low cards. This makes 2 pair and sets very unlikely which is usually what you are upagainst when you get crai'd.

Consider getting crai with AA on a flop of 892 rainbow. In a pot that you raised and got a caller. You're probably up against 88, 99, or 89 or possibly some overpair smaller than yours. So you need to weigh everything out. If you raised however, and were then 3bet, an overpair or AK-AQ is more likely for villain so call the shove.

[ama0330]

Ive said it before and I'll say it again,

Stacking off with overpairs is uNL's biggest leak.

Dont look at a hand in isolation. What happened pre? What do you know about villain? What is the action which has lead you to this decision? Unless you can absolutely justify a call (which is often the case, of course) you should fold.

[DoGMaTiCMD]

Reads at micro stakes tables are often fairly easy to make and if you have one, stick to it.

Base this decision on your read. If you don't have one, use common sense, board texture, and position.

[Check_The_Nuts]

Vor - that example hand you gave is kinda weird. Its a reraised pot, and both players ~PSB remaining. Any bet made on the turn commits you to calling all in, and if you check the turn you don't know if he's bluffing you or has the nut flush. Very very tricky non-standard overpair hand.

Its a balance I think between whether you think he'll call with a wider range on the turn, or will he bet with a wider range on the river. Also pot odds etc. should be taken into account, and if he would ever bluff in that spot...

you didn't give any stats/reads on any of your hands either. Whether its OK to get it in with an overpair depends a lot on the player IMO....

[sputum]

26k hands at a site should tell you how hands play out more accurately than generic advice given here. Be careful of observer bias though.
Games and sites do vary a lot. As do players on each site. Most posted hands are readless whereas most plays I make at my main game are read-assisted (even 'having no read' is a read if you're used to the site, a few orbits can be revealing without the 'stats' being reliable etc) Your hands are readless and as such I would often call with hands like these, but don't undervalue any information you might have, no matter how slight.
My preferred site has a lot of donkeys who semibluff AI with undercard naked flush draws and the like. Calling an all-in is a simple matter of determining your likelihood of winning vs the pot odds and as such is one of the simpler problems in poker. Fire up pokerstove and play with ranges to see how you fared. You got 26k hands to get likely ranges from. The poker math is done for you. Nothing stopping you coming up with likely answers for your problems yourself. They might not be relevant to others, just as their advice on hands might not be relevant to your particular situation. All hand advice comes with implicit caveats.

[VorShot]

[ QUOTE ]
Vor - that example hand you gave is kinda weird. Its a reraised pot, and both players ~PSB remaining. Any bet made on the turn commits you to calling all in, and if you check the turn you don't know if he's bluffing you or has the nut flush. Very very tricky non-standard overpair hand.

Its a balance I think between whether you think he'll call with a wider range on the turn, or will he bet with a wider range on the river. Also pot odds etc. should be taken into account, and if he would ever bluff in that spot...

you didn't give any stats/reads on any of your hands either. Whether its OK to get it in with an overpair depends a lot on the player IMO....

[/ QUOTE ]

The hand wasn't mine, i just thought the advice given was pretty much just the usual; GOGOGOGOGOGOGO, when i feel like maybe there's a fold there.

and about pot commited and such, i don't remember, i only glanced at the hand, but i thought it was a deep stack hand.

Either way, it was only an example, though it is possible i didn't pick a good one.

[corsakh]

Depends on the villain and the board, if it is coordinated or not.

[VorShot]

Unless you hit a set, your hand is never the best hand possible on the flop with a big pair...coordinated flop or not.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you hit a set, your hand is never the best hand possible on the flop with a big pair...coordinated flop or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unccordinated board eliminates a lot of hands that give you trouble - trips, straights, flushes, combo draws, two pairs. However two pair is not a terrible scenario for you, since a paired board will usually save you.

The only good hands left are overpairs and sets. Players like getting all in on overpairs, so this is good news for you. The only thing to worry about is a set.

And here you should look into preflop play, how many people are still in the hands, villains position, his agression and tendencies, your image and personal history with this opponent.

Folding AA on T72r is pretty much the same as folding 22 on the same board deepstacked.

[TheSalche]

Vor, we all need to avoid stacking off with these big hands post flop, but at micro its usually right to do so on certain boards ... ill stack off AA all day on a K72 flop, just because they'll overvalue AK a lot here, etc. There's plenty of times to fold overpairs vs. nits. Ex: I 3bet preflop with AA and get called by a nit, board comes 8TQ. I bet and he calls. What can he have here that we beat? JJ? KK? Much more likely to have TT or QQ there ... of course he did have TT so that's a little biased.

NL hold'em is a game of trying to take very little information and extrapolate it based on previous experiences. You're never gonna be right all the time, so you just do your best,etc. If you're still winning a good amount with AA/KK you're doing fine. There's plenty of up and downswings where you're rockets will win all the time or they'll lose all the time.

[KurtSF]

VorShot,

Hey man, I remember you were doing a no-deposit BR climb. How's that going? Anyway...

See my post in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=9056012) regarding how much to call when a draw comes in. Let's look at your example hand the same way.

Preflop: a $1.80 pot, where you probably have 66% equity against these two villain's hand ranges, and put in $.6, you've "made" $0.60.

Flop: Top set, wahoooo!!! You put in $1.77 of $3.54. After he calls, let's significantly up the chance he has a FD from "random" to about 20%. So 20% of the time you have about 70% equity, and 80% of the time you have 90% equity. You have a MONSTER. You just "made" another $1.27 in EV, making your total on the hand $1.87.

Turn action #1: The flush just filled. Uh oh. So 20% (our guess how often villain has the FD) you have about 20% equity, and 80% you have about 80% equity. Checking here is wrong for a number of reasons. First, we have an equity edge here with (we think) about 68% of this pot, so for every dollar that goes in the pot from here on out we get 68% of it, and so, we want lots of dollars to go in the pot. And secondly that card was as likely to give the villain a good draw (a hand with one /images/graemlins/heart.gif, far far more likely than a hand with 2 :hearts:), and we want to protect our hand. So we bet 2/3 pot, or $3.60. Based on reads let's say he's 2:1 to call this instead of fold. We've now "made" $3.50 on this hand so far. Very good!!

With me so far? Let's now go into the hypothetical where villain shoves.

Turn action #2: Villain has check-raised all in for $6.88. Oh [censored]! This action completely changes what we think villain has. I'd say he's now 90% to have a made flush that dominates up and we only have 20% equity, and maybe 10% to have an under-set (66?) or a combo draw (Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif?) or a bluff (???) that we still dominate with, say, 75% equity. Our new understanding say we are only 25% from here on out. We have to call $3.22 to win $15.88 in the pot. We eaily have pot odds to call this on the end. Also, the $3.22 we are putting into the pot when we are "behind" is less than the $3.5 we've made on the play of the hand so far, so the amount we lose on the call (.75 * 3.22 = $2.41) is less than the amount we made previously ($3.5, total EV of how this went down is +$1.09). This is a cinch call.

You play this way every time you will make a lot of money.

[Check_The_Nuts]

holy crap mathy posts ^^^.

I usually check call lead here, like half pot-3/4 pot, I dunno how I pick the number. Kinda wondering how big EMC makes the turn.