Visiting Europe for a month this summer

[TheMetetron]

So it is a possibility that I made a similar thread to this before in OOT, but I can't seem to find it. Regardless, my plans are getting a lot more concrete and I am going to be purchasing airfare and booking hostels in the next week so I figure I'd get some last minute advice on that. Also, I need to start planning the more specific things I am going to be doing in each city.

As some background, this is a trip I am going to be taking with my brother who is 25 (turning 26 while we are in Paris) who has a normal 9-5 job. Hence, this will not be the mega-baller version of Europe, but rather the normal college student version where you stay in hostels. He got a month of paid time off from his work so we could do this, I know we don't have a ton of time, but he'd like to hit the highlights and enjoy as much as he can. Also, don't suggest Eastern Europe. We are pretty much staying in Western Europe for this trip. A later trip of Eastern Europe is not out of the question but that isn't the point of this trip.

You will notice we are mostly flying from city to city. This is pretty much how it is going to be after a lot of debate back and forth. Cheap and quick are the priorities here and taking a train is both more expensive and slower in most instances. In most places, we will be spending 3 days; the exceptions are 4 days in London, 4 days in Paris, and only 2 days in Milan. I will be leaving from Buenos Aires, he will be leaving from San Francisco. We will be meeting up in London.

Here is the tenative schedule:

<u>Sat 7/21 - Thu 7/26: London, United Kingdom</u>

Flights: He is going from San Francisco to London Heathrow on Air Canada with a stopover in Montreal. The flight cost is $1121 roundtrip. He arrives in LHR at 10:15 AM. I am going from Buenos Aires to Amsterdam on Iberia with a stopover in Madrid for $1508 roundtrip. This flight arrives in Amsterdam at 11:15 AM and I will then be taking an EasyJet flight from Amsterdam to London Luton for $53 that will arrive in London at 1:50 PM. I am open for any suggestions on how to get to London cheaper. I am having my flight going roundtrip to Amsterdam because that is the last city we will be visiting. Changing this to London is also doable. It should be noted all of our flights leave on the 21st, but we don't arrive in London until the morning/afternoon of the 22nd.

Hostel: We will be staying at The Generator (http://www.generatorhostels.com/london/) for 4 nights at a cost of $25/pp/night. It is rated 79% on Hostelbookers and seems to have a good location. Bed linen and towels are included. It has free continental breakfast daily and internet (can't tell if it's free or pay).

<u>Thu 7/26 - Sun 7/29: Madrid, Spain</u>

Flight: London Gatwick to Madrid departing at 7:40 AM and arriving at 11:10 AM on EasyJet. Cost is $99/pp. I should mention we decided to take the early flight whenever possible to maximize our usable time in each city. I'm really upset because this flight used to be much cheaper, but appears to have gone up quite a bit lately. Oh well.

Hostel: We will be staying at Mad Hostel (http://www.madhostel.com/index.php) for 3 nights at a cost of $21/pp/night. It is rated 85% on Hostelbookers and like all of my other picks appears to have a good location (as much as I can tell having never been to Madrid). Linens and breakfast are included in the price. Free internet and wifi included here.

<u>Sun 7/29 - Thu 8/02: Paris, France</u>

Flight: We are going from Madrid to Paris Orly on EasyJet departing at 4:40 PM and arriving at 6:40 PM. The cost is $53/pp. I couldn't find anything reasonably priced for earlier in the day or we would have done that.

Hostel: I am really looking for suggestions here. I can't seem to find anything I like too much. Right now the plan is to stay at Village Hostel (http://www.villagehostel.fr/somma2.htm) which got an 80% at Hostelbookers for $29/pp/night. The price includes breakfast. I'm sort of iffy about the location here. It doesn't appear to be anywhere near the center, but is on a metro line. Also, there is a decent chance I don't stay at a hostel while in Paris and instead try to crash at a friend's place.

<u>Thu 8/02 - Sun 8/05: Copenhagen, Denmark</u>

Flight: Paris, Charles de Gaulle to Copenhagen on Sterling Ticket leaving at 10:05 AM and arriving at 12:00 PM. The cost is $78/pp.

Hostel: I can also use some help here The best I've come up with is Hotel Løven (http://www.hostelbookers.com/booking/index.cfm?hostel=8357&amp;fuseaction=hosteldetails). It has a good location, but is pricy at $47/night/pp. It is actually one of the cheaper options. I am also considering this place (http://www.hostelbookers.com/booking/index.cfm?hostel=8084&amp;fuseaction=hosteldetails) which I guess is just some lady's house that she rents rooms out of on the outskirts of Copenhagen. It would require taking a train into the city and depending on the cost of that and if the lady cares what time we return, I may go this route. It'd be sort of nice for my brother to see some of the more small-town Danish lifestyle that I've had a chance to experience. I am up for any suggestions on both Copenhagen and Paris as I feel pretty lost.

<u>Sun 8/05 - Wed 08/08: Berlin, Germany</u>

Flight: Copenhagen to Berlin Schoenefeld on Easy Jet leaving at 9:25 PM and arriving at 10:25 PM at a cost of $37/pp.

Hostel: We will be staying at The Generator (http://www.generatorhostels.com/berlin/) which is the same Hostel that we will be staying at in London. It is $18/pp/night and includes breakfast, bed linens, and towels.

<u>Wed 08/08 - Sat 08/11: Rome, Italy</u>

Flight: Berlin Schoenefeld to Rome Ciampino on Easy Jet leaving at 7:05 AM and arriving at 9:10 AM at a cost of $53/pp.

Hostel: We will be staying at Alessandro Downtown (http://www.hostelsalessandro.com/en/downtown/downtown_1floor.html) at a cost of $36/pp/night. It is centrally located and rated an 85% on Hostelbookers.

<u>Sat 08/11 - Mon 08/13: Milan, Italy</u>

Train: Oh my god, a train ride! It's the end of the world! Yes, we will be taking one train ride from Rome to Milan. Our train leaves Rome at 9:30 AM and arrives in Milan at 2:00 PM. The cost is $66 for a 2nd class ticket.

Hostel: The choice at the moment is Hostel Piero Rotta (http://www.ostellionline.org/regioni.php?localita=146015), but I am open for suggestions. The hostel is $25/pp/night and includes breakfast. It is a bit out of the way and apparently the walk between the hostel and the metro has hookers lining it. Also, seen some noise complaints. I'm torn here. The other one I would stay at is over twice the price but obviously better. Saving $50+ is probably somewhat meaningful to my brother though.

<u>Mon 8/13 - Thu 8/16: Amsterdam, The Netherlands</u>

Flights: We will be arriving on the wonderful world of Easy Jet (I just realized all of our flights except for one within Europe are on EasyJet). Our flight leaves Milan Malpensa at 6:45 AM (ouch!) and arrives in Amsterdam at 8:40 AM. I have a flight out of Amsterdam on the 16th at night and my brother has some ridiculous notion of taking a ferry back to London and leaving from there on the 17th (some weird obsession with crossing the English Channel).

Hostel: We will be staying at The Bulldog (http://www.bulldoghotel.com/inicio-en.htm) at a cost of $38/pp/night. It is rated over 90% on Hostelbookers so I have no questions that it will be a good choice. Includes linen with a good location.


Total Transportation Cost Within Europe: $442 (not including public transit within each city)

Total Hostel Cost: $746 for 25 nights


I am looking for feedback regarding the itinerary in general (but don't stray too far or start recommending Prague), as well as the hostels in Milan, Copenhagen, and Paris. Also, I would like to see some people recommend things to do/see in each city, especially things that can't be missed. Any good recommendations on restaurants, bars, discos, museums, etc in any of the cities is of course welcome.

As time goes on, I will add information regarding the public transportation in each city as well as my list of restaurants to eat at and places to go / things to do. I have only been to Copenhagen and Amsterdam out of the cities we are visiting and in Copenhagen I had a Danish guide so I remember nothing and I only visited Amsterdam very briefly during long layovers.

I will hopefully by July speak semi-fluent Spanish so we won't have any issues in Spain with language. London obviously not going to be an issue either. Amsterdam and Copenhagen both have large percentage of their populations that can speak English as well. I'm a little curious about how much trouble we will have in Italy, Germany, and France though. Any thoughts/opinions on this?

That's it for now as it has taken me forever to type thing whole thing out. I look forward to your comments, suggestions, and criticisms. I hope this thread proves useful by the time it is all said and done. Of course a trip report on this whole thing will be done after I return to BsAs.

[adsman]

Met,

I'll just give you advice on the Italy sector. Milan in August is unbearable. The city empties at this time and is left to any visitor foolish enough to wander in. It is not just the heat but the humidity. I've lived in the tropics and I was stunned at how horrible Milan is at this time. It's also not that great a city, compared to the ones that you're visiting. I think you can do much better here.

Your entire trip is cities. Why not take that weekend in Italy to get out into the countryside? Instead of hitting Milan you could go a bit further North to Lake Como or Lake Garda over towards Verona. The Alps are the place to be in Summer and the nightlife on Garda Lake is sensational.

If you're really stuck on Milan I'll ring a couple of mates who live there and ask what's good to do at that time. English is fairly common in Rome and Venice but that's about it.

[kipin]

Your schedule is way to strict.

There is no way you will want to follow that schedule when you get there. What I would do if I were you is come up with a list of cities you really want to get to, and just make it a point to get there. Or have a general idea of the areas you want to travel in and let the wind take you along.

As for taking trains vs flying, in my experience, trains are a lot better if you are traveling between countries that border each other. I'm not sure how much European travel experience you have but the cheap carriers in Europe advertise as flying into Paris, or Oslo, or Frankfurt but in actuality they fly into a neighboring city that will be like 1.5 hours outside of the city so then you have to pay another 20 euros to be bussed from the outskirt city to the main city.

The eurail pass (http://www.eurail.com/) Allows a lot of flexibility and works really well in my experience.

[ahnuld]

skip milan.

eurail is fine, but im not sure if its cheaper anymore. Flights seem to be the new way to do europe, but I trained around last summer and it was fine. Also, try to go to barcelona if at all possible, definitely worth it.

[fish2plus2]

Met did this thread already and he said they wouldnt have enough time for trains.

[kipin]

OK I just read your itinerary and will comment on the cities I stayed in.

Copenhagen, Denmark: I stayed at a Hosteling International Hostel on the outskirts of Copenhagen that took like a 20-30 minute bus ride to get into the main part of the city. ( http://www.danhostel.dk/vandrerhjem.asp?lan=uk&amp;id=144 ) I think this is the same company, but their location seems to have moved to a better location. Their facilities were clean and the staff was good there from what I remember.

I walked around this city a lot and took pictures. If you are into museums at all the National Danish Museum was pretty good. I don't have a calendar out but if you can avoid being in Copenhagen on Monday you will have a much better time. A lot of the touristy things to do are closed on Mondays. At least at the time of year I was there (late September)

I don't know if you are into graffiti at all, but if you are you should definitely try to check out the rebel town Christiana. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania ) Its a hippie town that has like 800 residents and it had the best graffiti art I've ever seen. (A couple pics are on my website http://www.kipin.net )

I know there was some talk of the Danish government shutting Christiana down when I was there 1.5 years ago so perhaps it no longer exists but its worth looking at if you are trying to kill a few hours. Also, hash is really easy to score if you are into that thing (The dealers all stand outside on "Pusher Street" and offer it to you - I declined /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Berlin, Germany: One of the best parts of my last trip was taking a free walking tour sponsored by this group ( http://www.newberlintours.com/nbt/ ) It was awesome and the guide was very knowledgeable about everything. All the guides are also native English speakers but they also speak German so it is pretty cool.

If you have the chance to do this, it is definitely worth checking out. I also went on their pub crawl and had a lot of fun. You get good discounts on drinks at bars and get to meet a ton of travelers.

I havn't been anywhere else on your list besides Paris and I don't really feel all that confident giving advice on Paris.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Met did this thread already and he said they wouldnt have enough time for trains.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I remember this discussion coming up. Basically, flying is much cheaper and as you can see the schedule is packed. No time for overnight trains and the like.

This decision has already been made so I'd more like to focus on individual cities as well as the hostels I need help picking.

[TheMetetron]

kipin,

That is exactly the kind of post I am looking solicit via this thread. I will look into your recommendations more in depth later, but they look interesting so far. Thanks a bunch.

Even though I've been to Copenhagen, I didn't see a lot of the touristy stuff. I was in an apartment getting drunk a lot and going over to friend of a friend's houses. So I'm definitely looking for advice on Copenhagen. I've spent extension time in the Randers/Aarhus/Viborg area if anyone is interested though /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Not that it is all that relevant but I can speak passable Danish. Ordering train tickets, food at restaurants, asking a girl to give me a blow job (Sut min pik din kælling)... things of that nature. Not sure if this will be helpful or not.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Met,

I'll just give you advice on the Italy sector. Milan in August is unbearable. The city empties at this time and is left to any visitor foolish enough to wander in. It is not just the heat but the humidity. I've lived in the tropics and I was stunned at how horrible Milan is at this time. It's also not that great a city, compared to the ones that you're visiting. I think you can do much better here.

Your entire trip is cities. Why not take that weekend in Italy to get out into the countryside? Instead of hitting Milan you could go a bit further North to Lake Como or Lake Garda over towards Verona. The Alps are the place to be in Summer and the nightlife on Garda Lake is sensational.

If you're really stuck on Milan I'll ring a couple of mates who live there and ask what's good to do at that time. English is fairly common in Rome and Venice but that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the Milan information. The only reason we were going there was because the flights are much cheaper from Milan to Amsterdam then from Rome to Amsterdam. Also, my brother wanted to take a train at some point so it seemed like a decent way to see the Italian countryside.

I am definitely not opposed to cutting Milan down to just one night while in-transit or cutting it out all together. I'm game for any other recommendations you may have instead, but it needs to be fairly easy to fly from wherever you suggest to Amsterdam.

[ISF]

I think I actually stayed at the bulldog in amsterdam like maybe 6 years ago. Think it was only like $15 then. Trip sounds like fun.

[Earl Sleek]

In my experience the language barrier will be more of a problem in France than Germany. Most German's, or at least most of the ones you will deal with, speak at least some English, many very well. I also found them to be very friendly. The French on the other hand are on the whole a much more rude people, at least to the English. There is a fairly widespread attitude of "you are in France, you will speak our language". Even in restaurants where you would think the waiters deal with English all the time, you will find a lot of the waiters absolutely refuse to recognise a single word you say that isn't in French. You should definitely spend some time learning the language before you go, it will make a world of difference (and it's a pretty easy language to learn). Of course there are still many friendly people in France and some great places to visit. If you get the chance you should spend some time in the more rural areas outside Paris, there is a lot of culture there.

If it were me going I would look to cut out a city or two, there is an awful lot of traveling involved in your trip and I would rather have more time to explore each city that would be wasted with so much traveling. You'll find that there is a lot more to each of these places than just the well known landmarks, and I suspect once you are there you will regret having to move on so quickly.

If I had to recommend a city to cut out, I would say London.

[JJSCOTT2]

More info about the French langauage barrier:

I was there for a week last summer (in Nice). I got the feeling and was told by Americans who live there that it's more about making the effort to speak in their language. They appreciate that you try. Never open a conversation in English, attempt to say what you need to say in French, once they see that you are making a good attempt at it most will converse with you in English.

[TheMetetron]

I'm leaning more and more towards taking up the only guy I know in Paris's offer to crash at his place.

[ahnuld]

I did the new berlin walking tour and pub crawl. It was alot of fun and definitely worth checking out. I actually did two pub crawls in berlin, but I cant remeber what the good one is called. In any case, it was the one that had 1 hour off all you can drink to start out, vs the other one which didnt. Made all the differnce.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Why such a hurry man? You are young /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Reduce the number of cities, it is from day2/day3 and beyond you really start to find things you enjoy etc. in a city, stay 4-5 days at least.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Why such a hurry man? You are young /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Reduce the number of cities, it is from day2/day3 and beyond you really start to find things you enjoy etc. in a city, stay 4-5 days at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was just me I'd spend 10 weeks in Europe and visit 8 cities or so. My brother doesn't have all the time or money in the world. He may not be back to Europe for at least 5-10 years after this so he wants to see as much as he can.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Not much to add, since I have mostly stayed on expensive hotels, but choice of cities seems very good, except maybe Milan (haven't been here, but have heard other people than the one in this thread critizising it). What do you want to do in the different cities?

[El Diablo]

Met,

I've done trips like this and I've done trips where I spend much more time in individual cities. I far prefer the latter. However, I do think checking out a lot of places is pretty fun at a young age so you can figure out what you like. But it's way more fun if you do it without planning. Just show up in London w/ a rough idea of places you'd like to check out and a couple of must-see places to get to, then play it by ear. I did that long ago when you had to communicate with locals for things like figuring out where to stay, etc. That was a blast. With the Internet, doing that is trivial.

I'd also echo what otehrs said about Milan. If doing two cities in Italy, I'd do Florence and Rome. I haven't been, but everyone tells me the Italian Riviera is a pretty sweet place to visit, not sure if it really makes sense on this trip though.

In Spain, I'd want to hit Barcelona. One of my favorite cities anywhere. Sevilla, Granada, etc. in the south of Spain are all really nice too, but probably won't make sense for you logistically.

I've spent a fair amount of time in all those places except Berlin. Tons to do in all of the cities. Very easy to stay occupied for a week or so in each place. I like it like that because then I don't feel any pressure to check out specific museums or whatever in a short timeframe, just sorta check out stuff at a leisurely pace if I feel like it.

My recommendation would be a few days in London.
Then Paris next for a couple of days.
Then to Madrid and Barcelona for a week.
Then to Florence and Rome for a week.
Then Amsterdam for a couple of days. I'd make this an optional stop, depending on how schedule is going.

Would probably skip Copenhagen, even though it's a pretty sweet city. I just think there's a lot more to see and do in many other places. Also would skip Berlin, because I'm not a big fan of Germany.

Anyway, just another idea that gets you to about the same number of cities, but might be a little easier logistically.

What I'd really do, though, is pick three cities that you really want to go to and plan for a week in each of those places, then have the other places as "fill-in" places in case you decide you want to take off after just a couple of days someplace.

[kipin]

If you are into 20th century history at all don't skip Berlin.

In my eyes that is the city with the most 20th century history in the world.

Berlin was awesome when I went there and would recommend it to anyone. Then again I'm a bit of a history nerd so I guess it appealed to me for specific reasons.

As I said earlier, as well as Diablo mentioned you really shouldn't make a set schedule that you feel like you MUST stick to. When I was in Vienna I originally planned to stay for just 3 days but ended up staying 6 because I found it so awesome. I don't regret that decision at all because I got to do a lot of one of a kind things I wouldn't have been able to do if I had only stayed for 3 days. For example by staying a few extra days I was able to see a ballet in the Vienna Opera House for 5 euros thanks to the student tickets they sell. (Student tickets = the best tickets in the house that they don't sell they release to students an hour before the show starts for 5 euros)

[Spy Dog]

If you asked 100 people 'Florence or Milan', 99 people would choose Florence. I would stay in Florence for 3 days and take a day trip to Siena via cheap bus. You can always take the train to Milan from Florence to catch your flight.

If your flights aren't already booked you can also get cheap fares from www.ryanair.com. (http://www.ryanair.com.) They are usually cheaper than EasyJet. I have flown for 2 cents round-trip a couple of times from Dublin to Belgium. You just have to book a little early.

Edit: Also, make sure you get the high-speed train out of Rome. This can cut your travel time down significantly, although you will pay a slightly higher price. These are the ES* trains.

[JaredL]

Barcelona is a much, much better place to go than Madrid unless you have something in Madrid you that you particularly want to see (Prado museum or Guernica in the Reina Sofia would be the two likely candidates).

I'm sure you will find very few that disagree with that.

[Spy Dog]

I was just checking out www.ryanair.com (http://www.ryanair.com) a little bit. They are constantly having sales. Currently, they are having a sale for travel thru June 30th, which doesn't apply to you. However, it's a 99.99% certainty that they'll have sales later this spring for travel that includes your dates.

After a few clicks I was able to find great deals, like Paris-&gt;Rome for 8 Euro. And Barcelona-&gt;Paris for 1 Cent.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
Barcelona is a much, much better place to go than Madrid unless you have something in Madrid you that you particularly want to see (Prado museum or Guernica in the Reina Sofia would be the two likely candidates).

I'm sure you will find very few that disagree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say this as well. Barcelona at that time of year is THE party down. The beach which is right in the middle of the city is just a 24 hour party zone, with every bar trying to outdo themselves with DJ's and parties. You want to try and find a room at Barcolonetta so you can be right near the action.

There have been a few recommendations for Florence. An awesome city, but not in the 2nd week of August. To tell you the truth Rome will be absolutely heaving as well but you have to do Rome. No reason to survive being with every tourist on the planet in Rome and then following them to Florence though.

I live up in the Italian Alps in Trentino in a valley called Val di Sole. I'm a rafting guide in the summer. If you want I can organise you guys a room up here, take you rafting as well as some wicked downhill mountain biking.

http://www.valdisole.net/

Here's a link to the valley so you can check it out. By train it's about 10 hours from Rome so that's a bummer. But you can get a really cheap internal flight from Rome to Bergamo with Ryan Air. Here's one I've found for you for 15 euro.

http://www.bookryanair.com/skylights/cgi-bin/skylights.cgi


From there you can get a bus right up through the mountains to my valley which takes about 3 hours. Let me know if you're into it and I'll set it up for you.

[TheMetetron]

adsman,

Tell me more about the rafting thing? I don't think he will be down for the mountain biking as he's a fairly big guy, but I can't see how anyone passes up a rafting trip in the Italian countryside. PM me some more details.

[adsman]

I'm the head guide so I can get you down free or close to it. The rafting base is located in the main camping ground in Val di Sole. At that time of the year there will be around 700 people in it, good for partying it on.

Here's a link for our rafting base.

http://www.raftingcenter.it/comeraggiungerci.asp

Here's a link to the campsite. Check out the bungalows, I can organise one of those for you guys.

http://www.campingdolomiti.com/

I'm also opening my own bar/club this summer right in front of the rafting base, so you'll definitely be able to party on. Easy to get here and the closest airport is Milan/Bergamo which is the one in that airfare link. If you want more specific details or want me to organise a room for you just PM me. I'm more than happy to help.

ads.

[ahnuld]

If you want to do Barcelona, I suggest kabul youth hostel. Alot of young people, very clean, 2L of heineken for 3 euros at happy hour, and right in the heart of the action.

http://www.hostelworld.com/availability.php/KabulBackpackersHostel-Barcelona-722

[DemonDeac]

instead of Milan, go to Cinque Terre

just trust me.

[TheMetetron]

Airfares within Europe: Buy now or wait a while?

People keep saying RyanAir will have sales, but they don't appear to do that during busy summer months, do they? Also, they only appear to fly the Madrid to Paris route out of all the trips I am taking. Should I consider reworking the order to make some flights on RyanAir work?

I wish they had they sale they have now for the summer, but I'm not sure it is going to happen.

I'm going to work on some way to cut out Milan now.

[TheMetetron]

No one has hostel or hotel recommendations for Paris or Copenhagen?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

At least NOT wait until a few weeks ahead, the prices on Ryanair etc. jumps up when planes are full and I guess they are in summer, almost all of their planes have a limit on cheap tickets.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
At least NOT wait until a few weeks ahead, the prices on Ryanair etc. jumps up when planes are full and I guess they are in summer, almost all of their planes have a limit on cheap tickets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Ryanair are way cheap if you book in advance. The closer you get the more expensive it gets. I once checked a flight price and 8 hours later it had tripled.

[TheMetetron]

Okay, radical new idea.

I'm throwing out both Copenhagen and Milan in a test here. I'm going to try to extend the time in each city to 4 days with the following exception.

Madrid for 2 days, followed by Barcelona for 3 days. This would change the lineup of the cities to the following:


London - 4 days
Madrid - 2 days
Barcelona - 3 days
Paris - 4 days
Berlin - 4 days
Rome - 4 days
Amsterdam - 4 days

Changes that may still be made include reordering the cities, as well as dropping a day from potentially Amsterdam and/or Berlin and adding that time to somewhere in Spain.

Thoughts on this new approach? I'm creating two competing excel spreadsheets so I can look at this a little better.


Edit: Quick rethinking. This is more what I'm liking. I could theoretically add another day somewhere in here and I'm thinking Paris may be the spot if that happens. I've got one extra day to work with at the moment. Here's the new plan (in no particular order):

London - 4 days
Madrid - 3 days
Barcelona - 3 days
Paris - 4 days (potentially 5 days)
Berlin - 4 days
Rome - 4 days
Amsterdam - 3 days

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I am almost afraid to post in your thread since I know so much on this subject that I am going to nitpick all your plans apart. Are you planning to visit the cities in that order, or geographically?

EDIT: I ask since there seemed to be unnecessary much flight time in your original schedule (and thus I would think unnecessary cost).

EDIT2: Okay, saw you edited in "no particular order" after I posted, so ignore question, but look into prices, I think you will save a bit by shortening the total flight length.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I am almost afraid to post in your thread since I know so much on this subject that I am going to nitpick all your plans apart. Are you planning to visit the cities in that order, or geographically?

EDIT: I ask since there seemed to be unnecessary much flight time in your original schedule (and thus I would think unnecessary cost).

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, nitpick away. That's the point.

I have no set order this point in time, but if you would like to suggest one, I'm all for it.

Edit: The only condition is ending in Amsterdam. We want a few days to relax and get ridiculously high before heading home.

Edit2: Madsen, what flight order do you suggest? We may take some trains if they are feasible.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Barcelona is a much, much better place to go than Madrid unless you have something in Madrid you that you particularly want to see (Prado museum or Guernica in the Reina Sofia would be the two likely candidates).

I'm sure you will find very few that disagree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are both places we would very much like to see and most of the reason for going to Madrid. Based on the suggestion though, I've temporarily added Barcelona on a trial basis. I'm trying to work out the logistics right now.

[ahnuld]

Reina sofia was very nice and worth seeing if you go to Madrid. Another cool thing to do if at all possible is organise to go when they have bull fighting. It isnt very often though, but we were lucky enough to be there the same weekend by chance. Very cool.

In paris we stayed at the 3 ducks hostel. It wasnt my style, aka very dirty, but alot of fun. Really cool people stayed there, the staff is really chill (naked whipped cream fight the day after I left in the main bar) and the beer is good. Location is ok but you will need to take the metro everywhere, but paris has a really good PTS

[Arnfinn Madsen]

It is a bit dependant upon what is cheap flights hubs, London is well connected, Berlin also has a cheap company flying to London and Rome, so something like US&gt;Spain&gt;Rome&gt;Berlin&gt;London&gt;Paris&gt;Amsterdam&gt;US if you can combine that way across the Atlantic. Paris before London could be better but did not find any cheap direct flights Berlin&gt;Paris (that however does not mean it does not exist).

Air Berlin (http://www.airberlin.com/)

[Arnfinn Madsen]

What are you looking to mainly do in the cities?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
What are you looking to mainly do in the cities?

[/ QUOTE ]

- Walk around and soak up the culture. Get to know the layout of the city and the way it works and a feel for what it is like to be there. Find some nice parks to hang out in.

- See some really good museums.

- Eat some good food.

- Possibly catch some good theatre depending on what is going on.

- Experience the nightlife with a preference towards bars and lounges over clubs, but the occasional club is good.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Here is a search engine for Germany, might find some cheap flights/companies there:

fly.de (http://fly.de/)

And of course Ryanair and Easyjet as you know.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Paris and Berlin and Rome are excellent for all of that (with that list it would be my 3 first suggestions actually), since you have all of that in a relatively concentrated centre, so if you get a cheap hostel/hotel centrally you can do everything by foot and all of it is of good quality and interesting and you get 3 different eras (Rome for old history/culture/art, Paris for medieval-19th century history/culture/art, Berlin for newer history). Be aware though that in Paris there are restaurant/clubs and taxis trying to steal your money and in many areas also criminals so there be a bit careful. And don't keep talking about the war in the clubs in Berlin /images/graemlins/wink.gif (not because they are embarrased of losing, but because they are ashamed of the atrocities they conducted and are also often fed up of being confronted with it), but definately go watch some of the war/cold war-history as the Germans portray it very honestly and with humility (not coloured by propaganda as it is i.e. in France, Austria or Russia). In Amsterdam I wouldn't bother with museums etc., just enjoy the coffee houses etc.. London is very spread out in different districts and tube lines and such, so there I would recommend to try to plan in some detail ahead. Spain I don't know.

EDIT: Limit the theater part to London, you can i.e. see Shakespeare and you understand the language /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Or maybe drop London actually? For what you are seeking London is ok/good since it has such a varied offer, but without sort of having the little extra (at least I haven't found). It is fascinating for being very international (it is similar to Oslo if you were there, but much larger) but I have a feeling you are searching for the more distinct local feel. Drop it and you will have more time everywhere and then you may go by train from Paris to Amsterdam (it is about 4 hours), then you also have some flexibility wrt to how long in Paris.

Thalys (http://www.thalys.com/fr/en/)

[TheMetetron]

Revised Schedule:

He found an awesome $602 flight roundtrip from SFO to Paris. I am still starting at a $1,500 flight I haven't pulled the trigger on yet.

7/22 - 7/26: Paris
7/26 - 7/29: Barcelona
7/30 - 8/01: Madrid
8/01 - 8/05: Rome
8/05 - 8/09: Berlin
8/09 - 8/13: London
8/13 - 8/16: Amsterdam
8/16 - 8/17: Paris

We are flying to every city except from Barcelona to Madrid. Total cost of flights/trains within Europe is $350. Total cost of hostels is $705. The only intra-Europe flight I am having trouble finding is Amsterdam to Paris. Looking for suggestions.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
instead of Milan, go to Cinque Terre

just trust me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, we're talking.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
Met,

I'll just give you advice on the Italy sector. Milan in August is unbearable. The city empties at this time and is left to any visitor foolish enough to wander in. It is not just the heat but the humidity. I've lived in the tropics and I was stunned at how horrible Milan is at this time. It's also not that great a city, compared to the ones that you're visiting. I think you can do much better here.

Your entire trip is cities. Why not take that weekend in Italy to get out into the countryside? Instead of hitting Milan you could go a bit further North to Lake Como or Lake Garda over towards Verona. The Alps are the place to be in Summer and the nightlife on Garda Lake is sensational.

If you're really stuck on Milan I'll ring a couple of mates who live there and ask what's good to do at that time. English is fairly common in Rome and Venice but that's about it.

[/ QUOTE ]



Adsman is 100% correct about Milan. Go in and get out. Perhaps, the Italian Riviera. Como or Garda are good ideas too. Day trip to Switzerland maybe.

At any rate - before you board the train in Rome, in addition to your ticket I suggest you get a reserved seat - when you buy a train ticket in Europe you are usually only buying a place on board, not a specific seat. For a nominal fee you can get a reserved seat. This way you are guaranteed 1) a seat and 2) seat near your brother. Especially 2nd class - gets really crowded. Theoretically you could end up standing in the aisle from Rome to Milan if you don’t have a reserved seat.

Before you leave Rome - buy some bread, cheese, wine, bottled water, and salami (or similar) to enjoy on your day trip to Milan. If you have time in Rome you can get this at the out door market, Campo de Fiori, which is an event in itself.

Rome - don’t leave without seeing the Pantheon. I could go on about Rome, let me know how specific you want to get. e.g. Best pizza is in Trastevere district.

[TheMetetron]

RJT,

Get as specific as you want about Rome. I'd love to hear anything you have to offer.

I'd like to grab some sort of picnic lunch and just sit out in an awesome park there... I'm sure one must exist. Best way to go about doing this?

Also, can you get indepth about the Vatican (so touristy, I know). How much time does it take to see, what can you do there, how does one go about attending mass there, etc?

[BigPoppa]

Paris: You can actually find hotels in the Marias area (between Place de la Bastille and Hotel de Ville) for less than the cost of two hostel beds. I'm sure this is also true elsewhere in Paris (and in other European cities).

[BigPoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
Copenhagen, Denmark: I stayed at a Hosteling International Hostel on the outskirts of Copenhagen that took like a 20-30 minute bus ride to get into the main part of the city.

[/ QUOTE ]

The hostel on the outskirts in much niver and newer, but there is an independepent hostel with a much better location. It's next to the train station at the North end of the Stronget. Will try to remember name.

[RJT]

I think audiences with the Pope (actually that means a seat in a large auditorium - or outside in the square sometimes - to hear him speak) are usually conduct on Wednesdays. In the summer, I am not sure of the schedule as he is not always in town then. If this is something that you are interested in, let me know and I will try to get you tickets. I know a few people in Rome.

Regarding a picnic lunch - the perfect spot is the Borghese Gardens. Which is not far from the Spanish Steps which is a must see anyway. In the Borghese park is a great museum (can’t recall the name right now - but I’ll check my tour book) with a few noteworthy items - a few Bernini sculptures in particular. Regarding the meal itself - I’d go with the bread/cheese/salami/wine thing - but if you want a box lunch you should be able to do that easily. If you were staying at a pensione or hotel they could hook you up. But, just ask at the hostel or a nearby café - that shouldn’t be very hard to arrange. There are quite a few cafeteria type places near where you are staying (it looks like you are near the train station - which, btw isn’t the safest area - but don’t worry, Rome is not at all dangerous. Pick pockets are about as bad as it gets ) they’ll make you a box lunch.

You will have to check the time that the Vatican museum is open. You will want to see the Sistine Chapel. You must get there very early - ahead of time. Especially in the summer - the most crowded time of the year. The lines will be long and you can get shut out - it might close by noon, I can’t recall exactly. But the times are messed up. Once you find out where to go and when - you will see that the museum itself is huge. But, there is a direct route to the Chapel. Along the way, you will still see some of the treasures of the museum.

Make sure you wear long pants and no tank type things when you go to the Vatican, otherwise you will have trouble (might not get in) seeing the Basilica (Church) itself. Inside the church there are many side chapels. Here you can attend mass, no problem. You will have to find out when one is scheduled. I don’t have a calendar, but if you want to do Sunday Mass at the main Altar, I’ll have to find out more about that. Again, I have friends who are priests in Rome, so they can give me details. Tomorrow, I’ll check the calendar and see what days you are in Rome then I’ll send off some e-mails.


Buses are the cheapest way to get around in Rome. When I was a student there we often just got on and off the bus at will. Hardly ever bought a ticket. Tickets are cheap though, so handle that as you are most comfortable. Taxis are cheap, btw. Rome is a great city to walk around. You can cover a lot of territory by walking.

The thing to keep in mind when you are on a crowded bus - pick pockets are at their best. They will reach in your pocket without you realizing it. The other thing to be aware of are the gypsies. They come up to you - mostly at tourist spots, like the Roman Forum - carrying babies or a piece of cardboard to distract you. Once they see you are looking at the cardboard sign, they reach under the cardboard and pick your pocket. They are quick, so be alert. You will see a bunch of them approach you begging - just scream at them to get away (don’t be bashful about this) say it any language. They will leave you alone as long as you let them know you aren’t going to take any …

One of the best things to do in Rome is just to get a seat in a café along a piazza or busy street and just watch the people. Italians are a good looking bunch (men and women) and dress sharply, too. Never a dull moment in the Eternal City. Coffee lover - go to Tasso D’Oro near the Patheon. They pump out the coffee all day long.

This week I’ll look over some stuff I have at my office. I have one or two places in mind for great pizza in Trastevere, which is a pretty young, hip area anyway. And there is a place I love to hit for the grilled lamb and roasted potatoes -kind of touristy, but great food.

Oh yeah, make sure you take the express train to Milan. Or at least a semi-direct one. They have trains that stop in a zillion town on the way. You don’t want to go that way - wouldn’t really be a bad trip, just - you get the idea.

I'll get back to you.

[Specialist]

London: Generator hostel is pretty good for London. Drinks for a pound during happy hour. Some of the rooms can be smelly if you're with a lot of dudes and ventilation isn't that good. Picadilly backpackers is in a great location but not as good a hostel. Much closer to the centre but if you're gettin a tube pass, it's no problem. As a visitor, I find travelling out of the other airports other than Heathrow to be pricey because transportation costs a fair bit.

Barcelona: Kabul hostel no doubt. When I went, I couldn't reserve in advance but I showed up and they had plenty of beds. Don't walk down small streets in the dark. Stick to main streets. Those thieves are slick. Madrid is ok, but definitely more action in barca.

Paris: I stayed at young and happy hostel. Great neighbourhood. Curfew sucks though. Ok hostel.

Berlin: I've stayed at the circus hostels twice. By far the best hostels I've stayed at in Europe. Good hip location in Mitte. One is busier than other but both are very good in
terms of accomodation. Berlin is awesome. Lots of history, and the nightlife is excellent. Many different areas for all kinds of tastes. For walking tours, I like terry brewer. The old man knows a lot about all things important and
interesting.

Roma: Yellow Hostel. Very close to main train station. Clean and good.

Amsterdam: Flying pig hostel. I stayed at the one further out next to vondelpark. City is pretty compact, so it doesn't really matter where you stay.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
The only intra-Europe flight I am having trouble finding is Amsterdam to Paris. Looking for suggestions.

[/ QUOTE ]

The cheap flight airports are usually outside the city, I think that to use a such from Amsterdam to Paris you might end up spending just as long time as taking the train (since it goes centre to centre).

[proell]

I'm actually going to be in Madrid that same week.
I lived there many years ago as a teenager and have been back several times. Awesome city.
Good choice splitting time between there and Barcelona, though. Especially that time of year.
But honestly few cities rival the nightlife of Madrid.

Plenty of great bars and small clubs all over.
And you almost have spend at least one night at one of the big discos:

- Palacio de Gaviria (17th century palace converted into a disco)
- Joy Eslava
- Kapital (huge 8-level club that's always packed and worth experiencing)

check schedules &amp; dress codes.
It's been a few years, so things may have changed! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If you're around on Sunday it can be fun to stroll through the Rastro. Also fun to just hang in Retiro Park and take in a summer vibe of street performers while sipping a beer and eating fried calamari sandwiches and curing a hangover.

Prado = must see

[TheMetetron]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far. Going to go through and get some of these thoughts down and make a new post in a bit.

[TheMetetron]

I need help getting my airline tickets. My best deal is $1500 and there has to be something cheaper! I need to go from EZE to PAR and be there by the 22nd of July. Leave after the 17th of August. Surely someone here can help me come up with something good.

You can get me there a day or two early if need be. You can even get me in a different city in Europe for a few days beforehand if you have to. Also, I can be in a different city in South America beforehand as well, but I'd prefer not to do anything more than a layover in any city but Santiago. You can even have me taking a bus to somewhere else in SA then a plane to Europe. Whatever.

Basically, I don't care what half assed way you use to get me there as long as I am not doing 24 hours layovers in a [censored] city.

The only thing I can really come up with is a flight on Ibera with a stopover in Madrid. It is about $1500 and it seems like there has to be a better deal or a more creative way to do it out there.

The only sites I'm really using are www.aerolineas.com.ar (http://www.aerolineas.com.ar) www.kayak.com (http://www.kayak.com) www.easyjet.com (http://www.easyjet.com) and www.ryanair.com. (http://www.ryanair.com.) Come up with something creative and cheap!

[hyde]

RJT, Thank you for the info, I'm headed to Rome in April. Then Venice.

OP,
The Alps rafting sounds great.
and Venice is better than Milan.
And Munich is better than Berlin.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I have a GPS, so I can search it for airports around paris, how far range you want?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Paris: Many
France: A lot of small ones within 200kms, probably not interesting
234 kms: Charleroi-Bruxelles (Brüssel)
299 kms: Antwerpen
312-360 kms: The London airports
374 kms: Rotterdam
376 kms: Frankfurt

All measured by real distance, train obviously longer.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
And Munich is better than Berlin.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is zero chance this is true.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Paris: Many
France: A lot of small ones within 200kms, probably not interesting
234 kms: Charleroi-Bruxelles (Brüssel)
299 kms: Antwerpen
312-360 kms: The London airports
374 kms: Rotterdam
376 kms: Frankfurt

All measured by real distance, train obviously longer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the idea is to find the cheapest roundtrip from Buenos Aires to almost any city in Europe (or from Sao Paolo or Rio, etc) then add in the cost of getting from that city to Paris to start and getting from that city to Amsterdam to end. I'm just really bad at it.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And Munich is better than Berlin.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is zero chance this is true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on your criteria Berlin&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Munich, based on other criterias it could reverse (there are friends I would rather recommend Munich to).

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Have you been to Sweden? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

You may go on

Kilroy Travels Sweden (http://www.kilroytravels.se/)

I found there for $1,174 via Rio de Janeiro, but this is really a company with a lot of fine print, so I would call them to verify if you are young enough/have the right nationality etc. etc. etc. (I have sold them some of their call center equipment, so it should be a pleasant experience /images/graemlins/cool.gif).

[gobbomom]

ok no one has said this, but I'm a mom, so I will: take extra pillowcases for the hostels. You WILL be exposed to bedbugs, and most likely get lice if you don't.

Secondly, must sees in Paris: Musee D'Orsay (skip the Loevre), Notre Dame, take the canal trip down the Seine, I liked Sacre Coeur(it's also close to the Moulin Rouge). Verseilles was awesome, but it's about a 45 min.? train ride from Paris.

You don't have to speak much French, but you should know the basics. Taking the subway, or better yet the busses, is the best, cheapest way to get around. Buy a 5 day pass.

Hostels in Paris: http://www.hostels.com/en/fr.pa.html

I can ask my daughter if you have any specific questions, she lived in Paris as a student last year. PM me if you want/ need to.

[WillMagic]

some basic stuff:

first, tight schedules are bad. go where you feel. otherwise it's not so much a vacation as a class schedule.

second, you should be bringing a backpack and not suitcases. this may be obvious to you and everyone else but it is so important that it can't be left out. mobility is super, super important on this kind of trip. if your bags are a pain you will stay in one place for longer than you would otherwise. i made this mistake myself and hope you don't.

third, gobbomom's advice on paris is perfect. skip the louvre, hit the musee d'orsay, and take a day to walk (or climb) through montmartre and hit the sacre couer.

fourth, planes are bad and trains are good. especially with the cheap planes you will often have to take long taxi rides out of the city to get to the cheap airports. better to just take the train, which gets you from city center to city center, and is just generally more pleasant. plus trains give you much more flexibility in where/when you go.

have a good trip.

[Matt Flynn]

I'd go to Barcelona and Florence.

[Neuman101]

I studied in Madrid for a semester and am extremely partial to it over Barcelona. However, at that time of year, most folks in Madrid take their vacations and head to the beach. It will probably be 100-110 degrees while u are there. Its a dry heat, but its something else. Hope your hostel has good air conditioning. In addition to the Prado, make sure you go to the Thyssen Bornemisza - its directly across the street, a huge private art collection bought by Spain and now showcased in its own museum. Try and catch a bull fight while you are there (sit in "la sombra" - the shade)

Also, if your cutting out Milan, but want to add Florence, there are very cheap flights from Pisa to Amsterdam on Basiqair/Transavia (Basiqair.com)...Pisa is a 45 min train from Florence and you can see the leaning tower while your there.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]

second, you should be bringing a backpack and not suitcases. this may be obvious to you and everyone else but it is so important that it can't be left out. mobility is super, super important on this kind of trip. if your bags are a pain you will stay in one place for longer than you would otherwise. i made this mistake myself and hope you don't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, this is super important. Nothing sucks more than to drag luggage all over Europe. I travel extremely light.

[Go_Blue88]

I did this last summer--my brief thoughts:

1. Rome is awesome. I was there during the World Cup and it was an insane experience.
2. I stayed at the Bulldog in Amsterdam--it's really cool. You'll meet tons of people, there's a good hangout area (eg- pool tables, big TV w/ every movie ever made, a bar, etc.), and no curfew.
3. BEWARE OF CURFEWS in hostels. Some of them force you to be back by like 11 (or you get locked out)...so be sure to note that. Edit-- By this I mean, don't stay in these hostels.
4. BarTHelona is overrated. I don't get what the big deal is. San Sebastian and Madrid were my favorite places in Spain (although in Madrid, not that man people spoke solid English).
5. Nice, France is overrated. Blahblahblah the water is cool, but that's about it.

I dunno, my buddy and I improvised a lot of it. We had an idea of places we wanted to go to, and if we got tired of one, we'd go to another. Normally we'd book our hostel on the train ride there. However, if you want to get good hostels, this may not be so smart as many of them get booked rather quickly. We stayed in hotels in those instances.

[TheMetetron]

I just had a new idea.

What are people's thoughts on couchsurfing this? I mean, yes it will be like $700 cheaper, but it seems like a cool way to meet some locals as well. Probably not even in all cities, just some of them. Like Amsterdam I'd still want to stay in the Bulldog. Comments?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
I just had a new idea.

What are people's thoughts on couchsurfing this? I mean, yes it will be like $700 cheaper, but it seems like a cool way to meet some locals as well. Probably not even in all cities, just some of them. Like Amsterdam I'd still want to stay in the Bulldog. Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

And I've decided against this idea on my own.

At this point we have now booked our hostels, all of our flights within Europe, and my brother has booked his flight from SFO to CDG roundtrip. I still haven't bought my ticket yet, but I finally found one I like despite the $1500 price tag. I will buy it as soon as I get the okay from someone then we are set.

Here is the final itinerary with final hostel picks and flights.

<u>Wed 7/18 - Thu 7/19 :: In Transit from Buenos Aires to Paris</u>

I will be leaving at night from Buenos Aires(EZE) on Iberia to Paris with a stopover in Madrid for an hour. The total cost is $1491 and this is the only thing I haven't entirely booked yet. Does anyone know anything about Iberia and how they are on long flights? I will be arriving in Paris during the late afternoon on the 19th.


<u>Thu 7/19 - Sat 7/21 :: Arrival in Paris and Marne-la-Vallée, France</u>

http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/thumb/7/79/Disney-castle-03.jpg/450px-Disney-castle-03.jpg

Hostel: We will be staying with a friend of mine in Paris, so it will be the only city where we aren't getting a hostel. Not too sure on what the accommodations are like, but as long as there is a couch we are fine. Should be really nice to have a local here to help out.

After arriving, I'll be spending the night at my friend's place and then for both Friday, July 20th and Saturday, July 21st I will be taking off early in the morning and returning late at night via the RER train to Marne-la-Vallée and Disneyland Paris. The train is about 15 Euros for a day pass each day. I've wanted to see Disneyland Paris for a long time after hearing about it from friends in California and I grew up going to Disneyland in California all the time. It may seem a little weird, but its a high priority for me on this trip to have some time there. My brother is not as into as I am and would've been fine to visit for a day, but he is on a tighter time budget than me, so I'll be doing this before he arrives.


<u>Sun 7/22 - Thu 7/26 :: Brother Arrives and Paris, France</u>

http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/thumb/3/32/Paris-eiffel-tower.jpg/450px-Paris-eiffel-tower.jpg

My brother arrives on Sunday the 22nd sometime in the afternoon from SFO after stopover in Frankfurt. I won't be detailing the types of things we will be seeing yet, because none of that stuff is decided or has even really been looked at yet, but it will come in a future update.


<u>Thu 7/26 - Mon 7/30 :: London, United Kingdom</u>

http://www.christopherholt.com/photos-2002/00_london_galleries/big_ben_buses_01.jpg

Flight: We are on an EasyJet flight from Paris Orly to London Luton that arrives at 14:15. The cost was $62.

Hostel: We are staying at The Generator (http://www.hostelbookers.com/hostels/england/london/1327/) in London. We are there for 4 nights and the cost is about $24.50 per night per person. 80% rating on Hostel Bookers, central location, and free continental breakfast.


<u>Mon 7/30 - Thu 8/02 :: Amsterdam, The Netherlands</u>

http://www.dea.gov/photos/marijuana/marijuana031904_fig1.jpg

Flight: We are on another EasyJet flight from London Gatwick to Amsterdam that leaves at 10:30 and arrives at 12:45. The cost is $57 per person.

Hostel: We will be staying at The Bulldog (http://www.hostelbookers.com/hostels/netherlands/amsterdam/3442/) in Amsterdam at a cost of $38 per night per person. It is rated 90% on Hostel Bookers as is easily the best hostel to stay at in Amsterdam from what I can tell. An attached coffee shop and a location in the red light district. Breakfast and bed linens included; washing machines and internet available.


<u>Thu 8/02 - Sun 8/05 :: Barcelona, Spain</u>

http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/thumb/7/7f/DSCF0158.JPG/800px-DSCF0158.JPG

Flight: We are on a Vueling Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Barcelona that leaves at 12:00 and arrives at 14:15. The cost is $82 per person.

Hostel: The pick for Barcelona was the Kabul Hostel (http://www.hostelbookers.com/hostels/spain/barcelona/3455/) at a price of $34 per night on average. It is rated 82% on Hostel Bookers and has an awesome location. Includes breakfast, but a charge for sheets of 2 Euro. Internet and washing machines available. Has a bar and pool tables on site.


<u>Sun 8/05 - Wed 8/08 :: Madrid, Spain</u>

http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/thumb/d/d3/Madrid_palacio.jpg/800px-Madrid_palacio.jpg

Flight: We are not taking a flight. The bastardly train has won so we will be taking a approximately 5 hour train from Barcelona to Madrid at a cost of $82.

Hostel: We are staying at Mad Hostel (http://www.hostelbookers.com/hostels/spain/madrid/6242/) which has an 86% rating on Hostel Bookers. $21 per night per perrson here with breakfast and bed linen included. Pretty good deal and a good location.


<u>Wed 8/08 - Sun 8/12 :: Rome, Italy</u>

http://wikitravel.org/upload/en/e/ef/Coliseum.jpg

Flight: From Madrid to Rome on a Vueling flight early in the morning (leaves around 7:30). Should give us a good start in Rome though. Cost is $55 per person.

Hostel: We are staying at the Alessandro Downtown Hostel (http://www.hostelbookers.com/hostels/italy/rome/3511/) for $35 per person per night. It is rated 84% on Hostel Bookers and has free breakfast and free bed linens. Has for-pay internet access.


<u>Sun 8/12 - 8/16 :: Berlin, Germany and Return to Buenos Aires</u>

http://wikitravel.org/upload/shared//8/8a/Brandenburg_gate.jpg

Flights: We are flying on Easy Jet from Rome to Berlin leaving at about 9:30 and arriving at 11:30. The flight cost $55.

On the 17th of August, I have a flight back on Iberia from Berlin to Buenos Aires with a layover in Madrid for an hour. I arrive the next morning in Buenos Aires at around 7:30. This cost was already included up farther in the page.

My brother has a flight on August 17th from Paris to San Francisco with a stopover in Frankfurt. He is going to see if he can skip the first leg and simply take a train from Berlin to Frankfurt and catch his flight back to SFO from there. It may work because there are two different airlines that aren't codeshare partners.

Hostel: We are staying at Mitte's Backpacker Hostel (http://www.hostelbookers.com/hostels/germany/berlin/1504/) which is easily the cheapest hostel of the trip at $13 per person per night. It is rated 89% on Hostel Bookers and not surprisingly doesn't include breakfast or bed linens. Bed linen is 2.50 Euro. Washing machines and an attached bar are at this hostel.


That's the update for now. Should give everyone a good idea of what the final plans are and allow for any suggestions that can possibly be implemented (there aren't many as most things are booked). I will be updating within a few weeks with more detailed things that we will be doing in each city. Hope this post is helpful to some... your feedback definitely has been.


Total Hostel Cost: $572

Total Travel Cost for Me: $1,884

Total Travel Cost for My Brother: $995

[PITTM]

i am tentatively going to europe for 9 days in may with the only necessary stop on the trip being in athens, greece on may 23rd for the champions league final. I have only been to Florence and Bologna, Italy. I will probably want to go to Amsterdam, Spain and maybe Rome, I'm getting pretty excited about planning this baby.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
i am tentatively going to europe for 9 days in may with the only necessary stop on the trip being in athens, greece on may 23rd for the champions league final. I have only been to Florence and Bologna, Italy. I will probably want to go to Amsterdam, Spain and maybe Rome, I'm getting pretty excited about planning this baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are only going to be in Europe for 9 days and want to visit Amsterdam, one or two cities in Spain, Rome, and Athens?

I thought my plans were tight.

[PITTM]

yeah, after reading this whole thread i will probably be leaving rome out of it.

[TheMetetron]

My brother is scaring me. He has managed to plan out the "morning", "afternoon", "evening", and "night" of every day for the entire month. I know once we get there it is going to be really flexible, but he said he wants to have a basic plan so we at least have some sense of what we are doing and then we can stray from it later if need be.

I personally think he's crazy, but I can see the merit to having some things laid out. His list is by no means all-inclusive or non-negotiable, but I suppose it helped him see what we actually had time to do. Don't bother criticizing it here, I agree with you, but I'm going to humor him since I'm more concerned about him enjoying himself than me. I will be back to Europe soon anyways.


With that preface, I am going to begin detailing our plans for each city. It is going to take me a while to get through it all and this is as much for you guys as it is for me (I really need to see it written in my words with some more details filled in to get a feel for what he has planned). Feel free to give me any feedback you have that may prove helpful.


<u><font color="brown">Thu 7/19 - Sat 7/21 :: My Arrival &amp; Marne-la-Vallee</font></u>

<u>Thu 7/19</u>

I get in somewhere around 6pm to Charles De Gaulle and I figure by the time I get my luggage and get to my friend's house in Boulogne on the subway it will be somewhere around 7-8pm. Maybe go out to dinner or just grab something cheap nearby and then go to sleep. I have to get up early the next day so not a whole lot going on today.

I will be buying a Carte Orange for a week, probably for zones 1-5 at a cost of about 31.5 Euros ($41 USD) that will allow me unlimited use of the subway, buses, and RER for the first 7 days I will be in Paris. This will get me from Charles De Gaulle to my friend's place and everywhere I need to go until the last day when I leave from Charles De Gaulle again (that is day 8 in Paris). I'll just pay for that day on its own.

RATP (http://www.ratp.info/informer/anglais/) - Maps, tickets, and itineraries for subway/RER trips in France

<u>Fri 7/20</u>

I have to get up early and be out the door by 7 AM or so. I am going to take the subway to the center of Paris, then an RER train to Marne-la-Vallee where Disneyland Paris is located. I've detailed the journey (which will take about 1h15m or so) in the picture below.

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2085/todlplh6.gif

The plan is to go to Disneyland Paris and Walt Disney Studios on July 20th and 21st. I am getting a 2 day park hopper ticket for 96 Euro ($126) that will let me go back and forth between the two theme parks at will. Disney is really good at separating you from your damn money.

I will be spending the day at the resort going on rides, eating some food, watching fireworks... the usual stuff. At night, I'll go back to the RER station and travel 2 stops to my hotel, The Premiere Classe Hotel, which despite its name is a really basic place. Luckily, despite the misleading name, it is only 39 Euro ($51) per night so all is forgiven.

Premiere Classe Hotel (http://www.premiereclasse.fr/?l=en) - Apparently, they have a bunch of hotels all over France. The one I'm staying at is 2 stops from Disneyland Paris on the RER.

<u>Sat 7/21</u>

More of the same as Friday. I have to check out of my hotel in the morning, so I'll probably just keep my bag (I'm leaving my big bag at my friend's house, only taking a small one to Marne-la-Vallee with me) in a locker at Disneyland. Sure that will cost me some obscene amount because it is Disney. Later that afternoon or night (whenever I get bored), I'll be hoping on the train and going back the same way I came back to my friend's place. Probably won't get back to late and I'll have had a full day, so not a whole lot going on this night either.


My brother gets in the next day, but not until the later afternoon. I'm going to have to find something to do that I want that isn't in his Nazi itinerary before he arrives. More on the rest of Paris after I go over what he has decided he wants to do in this insane spreadsheet thing. Probably have the next few days up in a day or so. I'm going to go back and fill in more details about each day later when I have the time.

[adsman]

Met,

Why oh why oh why would you go all the way to Paris to go to disneyland? I don't understand this. That's a huge waste of money and valuable time. Ditch that idea, head into the historical center of Paris and start bar hopping and scoping chicks. Get a feel of the place. Disneyland......urrrggghhhh.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Met,

Why oh why oh why would you go all the way to Paris to go to disneyland? I don't understand this. That's a huge waste of money and valuable time. Ditch that idea, head into the historical center of Paris and start bar hopping and scoping chicks. Get a feel of the place. Disneyland......urrrggghhhh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said before it is hard to explain. I grew up going to Disneyland in the United States. I've always wanted to go to Disneyland in Paris. I find a flight a few days before my brother came that let me do this. The only reason I'm showing up a few days early is to go there. I know it's weird, but I'm cool with that... it's just something I want to do. I'm going to spend time doing other things in Paris (I'm there for 8 days total) so no worries.

[TheMetetron]

<font color="brown"><u>Sun 7/22 - Wed 7/25 :: My brother's arrival &amp; Paris, France</u></font>

<u>Sun 7/22</u>

My brother arrives later this day, but first I've got the morning to myself. Any suggestions for things to do that we've missed?

My brother arrives around 6pm. I may meet him at the airport since I've got the handy Carte Orange making it free to do so. Head back to my friend's place with him and grab a quick meal as he is probably tired from the travel at this point. Also, his psycho-planning has us getting up early as balls in the morning.

<u>Mon 7/23</u>

Welcome to day one of hell. It's really not that bad, I just find the documents he sent me hilariously funny and detailed. Here is what he has us doing today.

After getting up and out of the house sometime around 7am, we are stopping at the Place de la Concorde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_de_la_Concorde) (pictured below) in the 8th arrondissement of Paris. From what I understand, is it a big public square in Paris in which some 1,300 people were guillotined including Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI. The obelisk was a gift from Egypt and is over 3,000 years old.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Place_de_la_concorde_bordercropped.jpg

After a quick stop by the Place de la Concorde, we are going to talk a stroll through the Jardin des Tuileries near the site which is near the old Tuileries Palace that burned down in the 19th century. It is supposedly very beautiful and has a lot of classic and modern sculptures scattered about.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wfha2000/paris2000/23-1336.jpg

Then it is off to the main attraction of the day, Musée du Louvre (http://www.louvre.fr/llv/commun/home_flash.jsp?bmLocale=en). I think the Louvre really doesn't require any explanation, but this is going to be almost our entire day. We intend to be here by the 9am opening time and don't have anything else planned until the museum closes at 6pm. Of course a lunch to break things up, but this is mostly going to be a day to explore and appreciate as much of the art that is in the Louvre as one day will allow without rushing. Entrance fee is 9 Euro ($12) per person.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Louvre_at_night_centered.jpg

At some point here we are getting dinner. The plan is to continue down avenue des Champs-Elysees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champs-%C3%89lys%C3%A9es) either by walking or bus and go to the Arc de Triomphe (http://www.monum.fr/m_arc/fs_index.dml?lang=en) which shouldn't take too long. 5 Euro or $6.50 for the Arc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/ChampsElyseesArc.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Arc_De_Triumph_Flag.jpg

The last thing planned for the day is to check out Le Tour Eiffel (http://www.tour-eiffel.fr/teiffel/uk/) at night. The lift to the top floor is 11.50 Euro ($15). Nothing planned after that, but going out for drinks is a possibility near where my friend lives.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Tour_eiffel_at_sunrise_from_the_trocadero.jpg/400px-Tour_eiffel_at_sunrise_from_the_trocadero.jpg

<u>Tue 7/24</u>

Today is going to be spent in the 5th and 6th arrondissements of Paris. Get up at some point and get breakfast and take a walk through the Jardin du Luxembourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jardin_du_Luxembourg) to relax and just take in the sights.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Luxemburg-Garden.jpg/800px-Luxemburg-Garden.jpg

Head over the Pantheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panth%C3%A9on%2C_Paris) to check out Foucault's Pendulum and a bunch of dead guys tombs. Entrance is 7.50 Euro ($10). It opens at 10am and we probably want to be there around that time.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Pantheon_paris.jpg

Afterwards, we are crossing the Seine River at Pont au Double to reach Ile de la Cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ile_de_la_Cite) and the reason we are there, Cathdral de Notre Dame de Paris (http://www.cathedraledeparis.com/EN/0.asp). We are going to get down like a hunchback and climb to the top of the towers for 6.5 Euro ($8.50) and take some time to explore the art inside the Cathedral.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Notre_Dame_de_Paris%2C_front_view%2C_summer_2004.. JPG/452px-Notre_Dame_de_Paris%2C_front_view%2C_summer_2004.. JPG

Probably time to head over to the Quartier Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartier_Latin) and grab some lunch at one of the bistros here. Check out the Fontaine St Michel and just hang out for a bit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Fountainstmichel.jpg/450px-Fountainstmichel.jpg

After a while, head over to Saint-Germain-des-Prés and hang relax some more before taking dinner in at Café de Flore over some discussion about existentialism.

http://www.dauphine-paris-hotel.com/imagethematique/Saint_Germain.jpg

After dinner we are going to head about to the Quartier Latin and go drinking at a bar before taking the subway back for the night.

<u>Wed 7/25</u>

Today is apparently museum hopping day. The first one we are visiting is Musee d'Orsay (http://www.musee-orsay.fr/ORSAY/orsaygb/HTML.NSF/By+Filename/mosimple+index?OpenDocument) which opens at 9:30 AM. Entrance fee is 7 Euro ($9.50).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Orsay3.jpg/800px-Orsay3.jpg

After that, we are crossing the Seine River and going to the Centre Georges Pompidou (http://www.centrepompidou.fr/home30ans/index.html) to check out the modern art collection and library. Cost is 10 Euro ($13.50).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Centre_Pompidou_von_Sanmaritane.jpg/800px-Centre_Pompidou_von_Sanmaritane.jpg

Afterwards head over to the neighborhood of Le Marais and if time permits check out the Musée Picasso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_Picasso) which as the name leads you to believe, is the biggest collection of Picasso's works. Cost is 4.50 Euro or $6.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/800px-Musee_Picasso_Paris_Hof.jpg

Grab dinner somewhere in Marais and hang out at Place des Vosges in the early evening. Check out Victor Hugo's house. Eventually go out drinking/clubbing in Place de la Bastille.

http://blog.fon.com/fr/archive/placedesvosges.jpg


That's the end of our touring time in Paris. We leave the next day for London. Any thoughts/comments on our plans? Things you think we should've skipped. Things that we missed? Good restaurants you may know around the areas we will be visiting? Looking forward to your feedback and I'll get London up later.

[Hoya]

You don't really need 4 days in Madrid (I lived there for 6 months). I'd suggest a day trip to Segovia, about a 1 hour bus ride. It is a very cool and very old town, with 2 famous sites: a huge and well-preserved Roman aqueduct, and a fairytale lookalike castle called the Alcazar. It would be a nice change of pace from the modern cities that will dominate your trip.


http://www.wmf.org/resources/photogallery/images/spain_segovia_aqueduct.jpg

http://www.gorzow.mm.pl/~bebelebe/Alcazar%20Castle,%20Segovia,%20Spain.jpg

Nice Cathedral, too

http://www.nishida-s.com/main/categ2/spain-1/spain-1.files/segovia-cathedral.jpg

[LyinKing]

based on experience and your timing, I'd include the French Riviera and also Switzerland.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Disneyland sucks bigtime from what I have heard, if you want to see it, of course go, but don't expect anything. What you want to do in each city is hard to comment on since it is so individual based on taste. You might think you have arrived in Japan though as it will be only you and Japanese up this early /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Your plans for Paris seems good, just adding a few comments:
-Musee d'Louvre. You are going to be there from 9am to 6pm. This sounds like a lot of time but I would advice you not to try to see the whole museum in this time, it will just feel like a big grind as it is huge. Find a few sections you think you like and spend a couple of relaxing hours in each. If your brother says "what haven't we seen yet?" tell him this museum is not meant to cover in one day.
-Champs Elysses. Definately walk it.
-Eiffel Tower. It is very smart to go there at night, not only because the tower is beautiful at night, but the whole surrounding area with the river and all is very beautiful. It also has a great atmosphere. Getting up in the morning is good, but going to bed at 1am that night would be a big loss as Paris at 2-3 am is very nice.
-24/7. Calculate extra time for the walks between the destinations as there are so many regular beautiful houses, cafés etc. to see.
-Quarter Latin. Also very nice at night, but also here it livens up in the evening, I don't remember exactly when the last subway goes but if it goes early check out buses.

Can't name restaurants out of my head, just be aware that if you travel on a budget this is a tough thing in Paris. Around most of those attractions there are overpriced restaurants/cafés, you may end up paying $5 for a glass of water and $10 euro for a beer in a café, not exaggerating. There can be one café like this and another one 20 meters away which is cheap, so take a look at the menu before sitting down. If you dine/drink coffee in the middle during your walks between destinations, you will save some bucks and the cafés/restaurants will have a larger percentage of locals and be cosier and nicer, there much more people will want to chat also if you want to talk to locals.

[Ortho]

Eiffel Tower: It is nicer at night, of course, but in the summer when you are going there will be horrible crowds. I would personally try to hit it first thing in the morning when it opens to avoid the crowds, and look for other nice places to view the city from after dark, like in front of Sacre Couer or the top of the Arc d'Triomphe. Also, there is a public (and free) viewing platform on the roof of the Samaritane department store downtown.

You have planned too long for the Louvre unless you are a big museum head, but the general shape of that day (Louvre, walk through the Jardin de Tuilleries, stop in the Musee de Orangerie if it is open, as they have huge, full-wall canvases of Monet's water-lilies), then walk through the Place de Concorde and down the Champs-Elysses to the Arc d'Triomphe. This is the tried and true tourist path, and it would really be impossible to improve on it.

Your Musee d'Orsay/Pompidou Centre/Picasso Museum day looks quite nice. Also check out the Cafe Beauborg which is right in front of the Pompidou centre. It might be getting on a bit, but for arty French snootiness, it's great. Also close to there is the Museum of Arts et Metiers, which is actually the building that the guy hides in in the novel Focault's Pendulum (and, I'm pretty sure the actual pendulum is here, not in the Pantheon).

Also, when you go to the Eiffel Tower or at another convenient time, get over to the Invalides, which is nearby.

Also, you have to go up to Montmarte to visit Sacre Couer at some time. You can see it from anywhere in the city, it looks like a big onion. The view from here is imo the best view in Paris.

I wouldn't leave a cafe that you are enjoying yourself at to go to another one in the St Germain des Pres area. In addition to Cafe de Flore, there is also Les Duex Magots, which is a famous existentialist haunt, but these places aren't particularly more charming than another other cafe in a good area in Paris, and they are quite touristed.

Also, when you visit Notre Dame, hop across the river to the left bank and visit Shakespeare and Co, the famous English-language bookstore. It'll take 5 minutes and is very cool. If you buy a paperback, they will stamp it with the bookstore stamp for a keepsake.

Finally, for events, pick up Pariscope magazine. It has traditionally had an English section in the back, but the events listings are very easy to translate. It costs like 50 cents and is available from any newsagent.

Imo there's not much over by the Place de la Bastille that isn't better somewhere else.

[stealyourface]

i think you should go to Prague.

[TheMetetron]

Hoya,

We are only in Madrid for 3 days, not 4.

Madsen,

We certainly aren't trying to see the entire museum in one day, we are well aware that won't happen. The pace is going to be very relaxed and that is the reason we are taking the whole day, so we can see at least a little bit of the museum at the relaxed pace we want.

Also, wrt Disneyland Paris. I could sit at the regular Disneyland in Anaheim all day long by myself and not go on any rides and enjoy myself. Something about the childhood memories it evokes really makes me happy. I know it won't be exactly the same in Paris, but I hear the park is much more beautiful. Also, it is something I've wanted to do since I was younger.

stealyourface,

Thanks for the help! I'll add it right away!

All,

Great suggestions so far and thanks for the feedback. I am in the process of trying to get Stars to pay for my airfare since I totally forgot they had travel certificates until now. Waiting to hear back on what kind of deal I can get.

[Hoya]

I see - if it is 3 full days I think it is still worth the trip (you'd be back in Madrid for dinner).

Sounds like you'll have a lot of fun.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I know a few restaurants which are not so expensive and are great but it is completely brainlock wrt to names, I will try to remember or else I will post a route description later. Buy Crepes with Nutella and banana or other flavors, btw, they are fantastic. Also Creme Brulee for dessert if you eat in an ok restaurant. Especially the last one you should catch as it is quite rare outside France.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I guess you want to meet girls too. French girls are not really fun to flirt with at all. BUT, there are quite a few foreign girls living there and they are usually very fun, I guess it is sort of natural selection, it's a city that attracts liberal openminded people. If you like latinas and have catched a few moves I recommend Latina Café on Champs Elysses, but it is expensive, but so are really all good clubs in the centre. Maybe your friend can show you a similar place cheaper.

[TheMetetron]

Hoya,

I appreciate the suggestions, but I plan to live in Spain at some point in the future. I will have time to do all of my sidetrips in Spain, France, Italy, etc at that point if I don't get to do it sooner. As you can see our limited time budget makes big trips outside of the city very difficult.

[TheMetetron]

I have a few problems with my France itinerary looking back at it. Well, not so much with the itinerary itself, but some of the details.

Apparently, the Carte Orange is only good for a Sun-Sat week and not 7 days from when you buy it. Since I arrive on a Thursday, this makes the whole thing sort of useless for me. I will probably just buy 10 packs of subway tickets for 10.90 Euro. I'm not sure how I will do the RER trains I need. I'm trying to find some way to get the exact prices for different RER trips, but it doesn't seem to be working out so well for me. Anyone have any ideas?

Also, since I won't have unlimited RER privileges I'm considering staying at a hotel near Disneyland Paris where I can just take a local bus instead of an RER train. This one came up in a search, but I'm not so sure about it. Thoughts?

http://www.planetholiday.com/hotels/europe/france/paris-disneyland/du_moulin_hotel.html

I am going to do London right now to avoid losing more money at poker and since I can't sleep yet.

[Ortho]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a few problems with my France itinerary looking back at it. Well, not so much with the itinerary itself, but some of the details.

Apparently, the Carte Orange is only good for a Sun-Sat week and not 7 days from when you buy it. Since I arrive on a Thursday, this makes the whole thing sort of useless for me. I will probably just buy 10 packs of subway tickets for 10.90 Euro. I'm not sure how I will do the RER trains I need. I'm trying to find some way to get the exact prices for different RER trips, but it doesn't seem to be working out so well for me. Anyone have any ideas?

Also, since I won't have unlimited RER privileges I'm considering staying at a hotel near Disneyland Paris where I can just take a local bus instead of an RER train. This one came up in a search, but I'm not so sure about it. Thoughts?


[/ QUOTE ]

The metro thing is too cheap to bother worrying about. Just buy the "carnet" of 10 tickets like you've planned above. I didn't get your full schedule but the only time you'll use the RER is to the airport, Disney, and Versailles if you go. It's not particularly expensive and imo not really worth worrying about ahead of time.

There is literally nothing interesting instead of Disneyland in the area east of the city where Disney is. I personally drove there when I went so am not familiar with the exact logistics of getting there on the RER, but I think that you'd definitely be wasting a night if you stayed out there--just stay in the city and do whatever you have to do RER-wise to get there in the morning, rather than cooling your heels out there after the trains stop running, and then presumably moving hotels again back to Paris after you go to Disney etc. It's not that far--perhaps 1.5 hours tops depending on where you are staying in the city.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

as others have said, going to Disneyland Paris is waste of time. staying at a hotel out there would be doubling down on this mistake. just buy a single RER ticket.

some other general comments, half grunching this thread. dedicate more time in Paris to spending hours in cafes and restaurants. this is really the best thing in Paris. granted I've seen all the sites in Paris (a lot of which like the Arc de Triumphe and Place de Concorde are pretty meh), but if I had 1 day in Paris, I would spend a lot of it just walking around eating and drinking.

[O Fen�meno]

If you are in Madrid and want "American food" a safe bet is VIPs. There are like 40 of them in the city

[TheMetetron]

<u><font color="brown">Thu 7/26 - Mon 7/30 :: London, United Kingdom</font></u>

<u>Thu 7/26</u>

We have a 14:00 flight out of Paris, Charles De Gaulle Airport on EasyJet. Through the magic of time travel we arrive in London Luton Airport at 14:15, a mere 15 minutes later.

Using the wonderfully convenient easyBus (http://www.easybus.co.uk) for only £2 ($4) per person we are getting dropped off one block from the Victoria tube station where we catch the Victoria line to Green Park and switch to the Picaddilly line getting off at Russell Square where our hostel is located. You apparently need to book the easyBus ticket at least 6 weeks in advance to get the ridiculously low fare though. The bus ride is about an hour and 15 minutes to Victoria station and from there it is another 15 minutes on the tube to Russell Square. I'm expecting to be checked into the hostel by 17:00.

We are staying at The Generator (http://www.hostelbookers.com/booking/index.cfm?hostel=1327&amp;fuseaction=hosteldetails) hostel in London. It is located near the Russell Square station on the Piccadilly Line in Bloomsbury. We are paying £12.25 ($24.50) per person per night. It is a 78% on Hostel Bookers and is London's biggest hostel. It includes free bed linen, towels, and a continental breakfast every morning. Also has free luggage storage, in-dorm lockers, and a free drink upon arrival. Happy hour from 18-21 with £1.50 pints in the attached Generator Bar. They also have "value dinners" or whatever they call it available in the hostel, which is basically just pizza, burgers, salads, etc that you can buy there for cheap. 24 hour pool tables and laundry facilities also available.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7282/hostelgeneratoriw3.jpg

Also worth mentioning is the way that the tube works. By far the best way to do ticketing is via the Oyster Card (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card) system. Walk up fares are £4 without an Oyster Card or £1.50 with one. Obviously, a huge difference and incentive to pick one up. Buses are usually £2, £1 with an Oyster Card. Here is a link for the London Underground (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/).

The best thing about Oyster cards is the daily capping. Once you reach a certain amount of fares charged to your Oyster Card in a day, you are not charged for any additional travel. For instance, say that on a Saturday I take a tube ride to the first place I want to visit. Then I want to see something else across town so I take another tube ride. I want to see another attraction fifteen blocks away so I take a bus. Finally, I need to get back to my hostel, so I take one more tube ride. Normally, that would be 3 tube rides at £1.50 each and one bus ride at £1. Instead of being charged £5.50, I am charged the daily cap of £4.60. The daily cap is £6.10 ($12) if you travel before 9:30 on a weekday during the 24 hour period or £4.60 ($9) otherwise. This is 50 pence cheaper than just buying a paper travel card with the obvious advantage being if you don't use the Oyster Card enough to reach the daily cap, you are charged less. Obviously, there is no reason not to use an Oyster Card when visiting London unless you hate money. There is also a £3 refundable deposit for receiving a pay-as-you-go Oyster Card.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6600/oysterbusbu5.gif

Anyways, after we arrive by 17:00 we don't have any real plans for the night. We will probably just stay in the Bloomsbury area and hit some pubs and meet some people in the hostel. I'm open for good dinner recommendations nearby. It is possible we see a show this night if we can find something good and cheap.

<u>Fri 7/27</u>

So today we are waking up around 9am to be have time to get ready, eat hostel breakfast, and be at the British Museum in time for its 10am opening time.

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5185/800pxbritishmuseumfromnyo8.jpg

The British Musem (http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/), like all other national museums and art galleries, does not charge an admission fee which is especially nice because of the expensive GBP. This museum seems pretty awesome with a good diversity of antiquities. Obviously, the Rosetta Stone and the Parthenon Sculptures are high on the must see list. We only have a few hours budgeted here, which may be cutting it short.

Around lunch time (1-2pm) we are taking the Piccadilly Line to Leicester Square to grab some lunch and head to the National Gallery (http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/) which is also free to visit. It has a fairly extensive collection as well and we will spending a few hours here as well.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5821/800pxnationalgallerylj2.jpg

Those two museums comprise our entire daylight hours for today and there is nothing planned until the evening except for randomly wandering around Piccadilly Circus / Leicester Square / Trafalgar Square so we have some decent flexibility if we really like one of the museums and want to see more.

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2415/trafalgarsqucanadahsearxc6.jpg

We are going to grab a bite to eat somewhere in the West End at night (open to restaurant recommendations again) and then either catch a stand-up show at the Comedy Store (http://www.thecomedystore.biz/) which has an 8pm show for £16 ($32) or a 12am show for £13 ($26) or go watch a movie in Leicester Square. The 8pm show is the current front-runner and lasts a bit over 2 hours. Possible bar/nightclub shenanigans likely somewhere in the West End afterwards, recommendations again appreciated.

<u>Sat 7/28</u>

This is going to be a somewhat early day; we will probably be out the door of the hostel by 8:30 or so. The plan is to take the Piccadilly Line to Green Park and switch to the Victoria Line one stop to the Victoria station. Then walk over to Buckingham Palace and take a quick look from the outside (the apartments are closed while we are there, but we probably wouldn't see it anyways).

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3589/buckinghampalace2clondovq4.jpg

After the quick stop, we are going to walk through St. James Park on the way to Westminster Abbey (http://www.westminster-abbey.org/) which is where the British royalty are crowned and many are buried. It is ridiculously overpriced at £10 ($20) for admission, but what are you going to do? It's not like I'm coming to London and NOT seeing the inside of Westminster Abbey. It opens at 9:30am and I want to be there not much later than that time.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1593/westminsterabbeywestxh3.jpg

After maybe an hour checking out the church, we are going to take the walk over to the House of Parliament, officially known as the New Place of Westminster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Houses_of_Parliament). We are unfortunately visiting while Parliament is in session and not during the summer recess so we can't visit the inside of the building. All we are going to do is take a quick stop by to hear the bells ring and admire it from the outside.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/6107/palaceofwestminsterarpwj4.jpg

ThenWe take either the District Line 8 stops or so to Whitechapel. We are going to grab some lunch in this working-class neighborhood and then do a unique creation of my brother. He is going to make his own Jack the Ripper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_The_Ripper) tour in the Whitechapel area for us. Yes, he's that twisted. Basically, he is going to find out where all of the bodies were found and other places of interest related to him in the area and we are going to just check it out and take some pictures. Should be a twisted and fun experience and also allow us to see some of the poorer areas of London. He hasn't finished it yet, but when he is done, I'll update this section. We need to leave Whitechapel by about 2:30pm.

Then it is time to hop back on the tube (we are using it a lot today) three stops to Monument where we switch to the Central Line and go one more stop to St. Paul's. You guessed it we are going to be visiting the cathedral, crypt, and towers of St. Paul's Cathedral (http://www.stpauls.co.uk) for the low price of £9.50 ($19). The views from the cathedral and supposedly very beautiful and I expect to spend about an hour here.

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9713/441pxstpaulscathedralsodm4.jpg

Then it is back on the Central Line for two stops to switch at Holborn and go back to Russell Square on the Picadilly Line and the hostel. Take a quick nap, shower, and change into something more appropriate for the evening. Head out of the hostel by about 6:30 or 7pm.

We are then heading two stops on the Piccadilly Line to Leicester Square where we switch to the Northern Line and get off at the Waterloo Station. Here we are going to get in line for the London Eye (http://www.ba-londoneye.com/) which costs £13 ($26) and will probably take 30 minutes to an hour to get through the line plus another 30 minutes for the ride. Can't forget to bring binoculars for this.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/4059/800pxlondoneyetwilightajx6.jpg

Then probably find a nearby bar to grab some drinks and pub grub for dinner while waiting for it to get a bit later. Around 11pm or so take the Bakerloo line two stops to Elephant &amp; Castle and get in line for entrance to The Ministry of Sound (http://www.ministryofsound.co.uk/clubbing/) disco. Entrance is probably going to cost around £13 ($26) and there is no bar located inside. That's okay because this is an awesome electronic-music club and alcohol is not the drug of choice. There hasn't been much thought put into how to get back from the club when the tube is closed, but I'm sure we can figure that out. It should be a good warm up for Amsterdam.

<u>Sun 7/29</u>

We get to sleep in a bit and plan to be out the door by 9:30am or 10am after some satisfying hostel breakfast.

Take the Picadilly Line to Holborn, Switch to the Central Line at Bank / Monument and then get on either the District or Circle Line for one stop to Tower Hill where we are going to check out the Tower of London (http://hrp.org.uk/tower) which costs £16 ($32) to enter. This used to be both a prison and royal palace and houses the Crown Jewels and the Queen Mother's Orb as well as other cool things. Free guided tours are given every half hour on the half hour that start by the first gate. It should take about 2 1/2 hours to see everything here.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6352/656pxtoweroflondon2ctrask7.jpg

After that we are going to take the half mile walk across the London Bridge and over to the Tate Modern (http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/) which is free to enter. We may grab a light snack (probably no real lunch today) from one of the cafes while taking several hours to check out some really awesome 20th century art from the likes of Picasso and others.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7014/800pxtatemodernlondon20xr8.jpg

Then we are planning to grab some dinner somewhere nearby (suggestions?) and hang out for a bit until walking over to the Globe Theatre for the 6:30pm showing of Shakespeare's Love's Labour's Lost where we are going to have yard "seats" which means stand up, son. We chose this option not only because it is cheap but it seems like the best experience as much as I'd like to sit on my lazy ass for the play. Tickets are £6.75 ($13) a piece.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6655/globetheatrelondonwy4.jpg

After that, we hop back on the Northern Tube Line to Monument / Bank and then on the Central Tube Line to Holborn, then the Piccadilly Line to Russell Square and back to the hostel. Get some rest and get ready for the flight to Amsterdam the next morning.

<u>7/30</u>

Today we have to be up and out early. We have a 10:30am flight from London Gatwick, which means we should be there no later than 9am. We are taking the tube to London Victoria (Piccadilly Line to Green Park, Victoria Line one stop to Victoria) for the last time and then getting on a train operated by Southern from Victoria to Gatwick Airport that leaves at about 8:20 and gets to the airport around 8:50 (can't book tickets until 90 days in advance). The cost is £9 ($18) which is £6 ($12) cheaper than the Gatwick Express.

Hostel Cost: £49 ($96)
Tube Cost: £15.10 ($30)
Airport Transport Cost: £11 ($22)
Museum/Cathedral/Attraction Cost: £48.50 ($95)
Entertainment/Nightclub Cost: £35.75 ($70)

<u>Total Cost Per Person:</u> £159.35 ($313) excluding flights and food/drinks.

[Ortho]

London:

-Just take the easybus to Baker Street instead. It'll save you like 1/2 hour of sitting in traffic. Then get into the tube and take the Circle, Hammersmith and City, or Metropolitan lines to King's Cross and walk to your hostel. This will save at least an hour.
-Generator is fine for a party hostel, and is very well priced for London.
-Spot on about Oyster card. A must.
Day 1:
-British Museum and National Gallery: Good.
-Restaurants: There are some OOT threads on this.

Day 2:
-(Sorry: edit)Just take the Piccadilly Green Park and walk to Buckingham Palace from there. It's like 2 blocks. This walk from there to Westminster Abbey and Parliament is good. After, I'd recommend you just walk across Westminster Bridge to the South Bank where the Aquarium and London Eye are right then, then walk along the South Bank all the way to the Tate Modern, go across the Millenium Bridge, and end up at St Pauls. This is the trail I take people on.

Day 3:
-Imo Tower of London is overpriced, but well worth it as tourists. A nice 1/2 day or so can be made that goes Tower early before crowds-&gt;across Tower Bridge-&gt;Globe-&gt;Tate Modern.

-Also, on the tourist trail you have missed Soho and Covent Garden, and I'd personally recommend doing your bar night in these area rather than way out at Elephant and Castle, which isn't near anything else. There is much more here. Also, the tube stops at 12-ish, and you can walk home to Russel Sq from West End or Covent Garden but E&amp;C is dodgy late at night. Your nightlife options within 30 min walking distance or short bus ride to your hostel are infinite.

Getting to Gatwick: Walk to King's Cross and take the Thameslink. It's probably cheaper and it's definitely easier.

Entertainment in general: Grab a copy of Time Out.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Entertainment in general: Grab a copy of Time Out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true of any city where Time Out is published, including Buenos Aires. I'm aware of it.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
London:

-Just take the easybus to Baker Street instead.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is an option. If it is once we get on the bus, I'll do it but the site is saying there is only one stop option at Victoria.

[ QUOTE ]
-Generator is fine for a party hostel, and is very well priced for London.
-Spot on about Oyster card. A must.
Day 1:
-British Museum and National Gallery: Good.
-Restaurants: There are some OOT threads on this.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good, where is the OOT thread? Could you link me to it by any chance?

[ QUOTE ]
Day 2:
-(Sorry: edit)Just take the Piccadilly Green Park and walk to Buckingham Palace from there. It's like 2 blocks. This walk from there to Westminster Abbey and Parliament is good. After, I'd recommend you just walk across Westminster Bridge to the South Bank where the Aquarium and London Eye are right then, then walk along the South Bank all the way to the Tate Modern, go across the Millenium Bridge, and end up at St Pauls. This is the trail I take people on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Problems: We want to the London Eye at night. And the Tate Modern is probably one of the highest London museums on our list; we definitely want to spend significant time at it. I appreciate the tube suggestion though and we'll just do that instead of switching lines.

[ QUOTE ]
Day 3:
-Imo Tower of London is overpriced, but well worth it as tourists. A nice 1/2 day or so can be made that goes Tower early before crowds-&gt;across Tower Bridge-&gt;Globe-&gt;Tate Modern.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think most of London is grossly overpriced. Nonetheless, you have to do it at least once. That's pretty much our last day and we are using the whole day for it.

[ QUOTE ]
-Also, on the tourist trail you have missed Soho and Covent Garden, and I'd personally recommend doing your bar night in these area rather than way out at Elephant and Castle, which isn't near anything else. There is much more here. Also, the tube stops at 12-ish, and you can walk home to Russel Sq from West End or Covent Garden but E&amp;C is dodgy late at night. Your nightlife options within 30 min walking distance or short bus ride to your hostel are infinite.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll consider it but Ministry of Sound is high on the list.

[ QUOTE ]
Getting to Gatwick: Walk to King's Cross and take the Thameslink. It's probably cheaper and it's definitely easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oddly it is quicker to take the metro then the train instead of the train from King's Cross. Still the price is the same and its definitely easier, so I'll probably just do what you are suggesting.

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, this is super important. Nothing sucks more than to drag luggage all over Europe. I travel extremely light.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best travelling advice I ever had? Take half as much luggage as you think you'll need, and twice as much money.

Words to live by.

Also, I've stayed in hotels all over Europe and have never had either bedbugs or lice. If you're worried, avoid confusing flophouses with hotels.

[Ortho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
London:

-Just take the easybus to Baker Street instead.



[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is an option. If it is once we get on the bus, I'll do it but the site is saying there is only one stop option at Victoria.

[/ QUOTE ]

The site I see here (could be different in the UK) gives two different routes from Luton, Victoria and Baker Street. Link (http://www.easybus.co.uk/Timetable/OurRoutes2.asp?SD=922444720070226084342)

Incidentally, I forgot to mention that I don't like the bus option at all (although I understand that it saves money). Luton is way out there, nowhere near the City, and the bus really sucks. It will be busy, the traffic will be bad, Luton is reporting roadworks that I'm not sure will be done by July, etc. If this is the spot to save money, then that's fine, but I would vastly prefer taking the Thameslink here too, though obviously £11 is more than £2.

Also, if you are going to take the bus, it's probably worth booking easybus ahead of time only if you can get the £2 fare, as the National Express from Stansted airport (which is about the same distance as Luton) is only like £7 or £8 single, and I'm sure that there are 10x as many National Express buses per unit of time as Easybuses. This is not something that I actually book ahead for when going/returning--I just turn up and buy a ticket from the driver or on the train platform.


[ QUOTE ]
Good, where is the OOT thread? Could you link me to it by any chance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I can't seem to find it now and have no idea why. Also, it was for highish-end stuff, and I see you are somewhat concerned about price. The thing that I personally use for finding every day, reasonably priced stuff is "Time Out's Guide to Cheap Eats", though that may also be standard in towns where Time Out publishes. This won't be the food end of your Europe trip, I'm suspecting, though if you get over to Whitechapel I recommend having a curry in Brick Lane.

[ QUOTE ]
Problems: We want to the London Eye at night. And the Tate Modern is probably one of the highest London museums on our list; we definitely want to spend significant time at it. I appreciate the tube suggestion though and we'll just do that instead of switching lines.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree with what you're saying here (London Eye at Night and time for Tate Modern). I actually just meant that you can walk past the London Eye and Tate Modern (this is where the bridge is to get across to St Pauls) when you're going along the south bank, and then actually visit them at a different time. The bit that you are talking about (Parliament to St Pauls) walking probably takes 40 minutes or something, and is one of my favourite parts of London, not because of destinations so much as it is just a nice place to walk, has good views of London, good people-watching and cafes, etc. and is better than travelling in the tube.


[ QUOTE ]
Getting to Gatwick: Walk to King's Cross and take the Thameslink. It's probably cheaper and it's definitely easier.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Oddly it is quicker to take the metro then the train instead of the train from King's Cross. Still the price is the same and its definitely easier, so I'll probably just do what you are suggesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you mean the train from Victoria? Perhaps it's somehow quicker on paper, but the tube times are notional only. There is just no way that getting into the tube at Russell Square, changing to get to Victoria, and then taking a train from Victoria at the height of the morning commute with luggage is going to be faster (or more pleasant) than taking the Thameslink, though the actual train trip from Victoria, if it is nonstop, might be a bit quicker. I show about an hour from King's Cross Thameslink with trains going every 30 minutes or something, and after trying just about every way, that is what I use to get to Gatwick from home. I'm sure either way will get you there, although I definitely wouldn't mess around with the bus on this day. I have chewed my nails too many times on the bus (if you fly too early in the morning, you're typically stuck with the bus unless you take a taxi or drive) wondering if the traffic would clear in time to get me to the airport.

[LB_001]

I've been thinking of doing something similar to this but always held back because all my friends are too busy working and are generally broke. How easy is it to meet other people in the hostels and do stuff with them, or is everyone pretty much on their own schedule? I'm just worried I'll get there and end up by myself 90% of the time and bored a lot. I'm sure it'll still be a great trip but just wondering if people think it will be a lot better if I wait for a friend or two to come with. I guess there might be some companies that offer group packages/tours or something, not sure if those would be any good though...

[Ortho]

Imo, it's just like life, only a bit easier to meet people.

If it is easy for you to meet people, then you will probably love living in hostels in Europe and will make a lot of friends and have a good time with them. If you are a loner, you will probably just let it go by, but you will still likely meet some people, because they will approach you. I am quite introverted, but even I met and had conversations, beers, etc. with people in almost every hostel I stayed in.

Also, it is imo easy to meet people from the countries that you are travelling through if you are polite, etc. as you are interesting to them because you are a foreigner. Of course, this applies much less to places like London or Paris, where there are foreign people everywhere.

Personally, I would prefer travelling alone and meeting new people or meeting up for part of the trip with friends, as I feel that the dynamic of the group tends to take over sometimes and I don't like feeling that I'm losing my one chance at doing x in city y because I am being polite to my friends. But I am an introvert. However, after a couple of months of travel, even I was getting really lonely and chatting up the cashier, etc. so it's probably good to have people around. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I personally wouldn't recommend package tours, etc.. I think it would certainly be better to wait for some friends to become available than to commit to a long holiday with strangers.

[TheMetetron]

I am going to repost my trip up until the time I leave London because some of the things have changed and I want to be accurate. Amsterdam will be up in a few days.


<u><font color="brown">Thu 7/19 - Thu 7/26 :: Paris, France</font></u>

<u>Thu 7/19</u>

I get in somewhere around 6pm at Charles De Gaulle and I am taking the RER Line B to St-Michel Notre-Dame then switching to Line 10 of the Paris Metro until Boulogne Pont de St-Cloud. The cost for the trip is 8.10€ ($10.65) and it will take 1 hour and 15 minutes.

It should be around 7:30-8pm by the time I get to my friend's house in Boulogne. I will probably go out to dinner somewhere nearby and then go to sleep. I have to get up early the next day so not a whole lot going on today except getting situated.

RATP (http://www.ratp.info/informer/anglais/) - Maps, tickets, and itineraries for subway/RER trips in France

<u>Fri 7/20</u>

I have to get up early and be out the door by 7 AM at the latest, probably earlier because I want to grab some breakfast first. I am going to take the subway to the center of Paris, then an RER train to Marne-la-Vallee where Disneyland Paris is located. I've detailed the journey (which will take about 1h15m to 1h30m or so) in the picture below. For both today and tomorrow I am getting a Mobilis Pass good for zones 1-5 for 12.40€ ($16.30) which is basically a day pass for the RER/Metro/Bus. It is cheaper than two one way RER tickets and will also cover my Metro use during the day. Also allows me to go to the mall one RER stop away from Disneyland Paris for free if I was so inclined. Do not ever get a Paris Visite pass, they are pretty much the same thing as a Mobilis but more expensive.

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/2085/todlplh6.gif

The plan is to go to Disneyland Paris and Walt Disney Studios on July 20th and 21st. I am getting a 2 day park hopper ticket for 96€ ($126) that will let me go back and forth between the two theme parks at will. Disney is really good at separating you from your damn money.

I will be spending the day at the resort going on rides, eating some food, watching fireworks... the usual stuff. I am planning on taking a break in the middle of the day by sneaking into one of the hotel pools nearby to take a nap. I haven't quite worked out the logistics of this sneaking, but they are French so it can't be that hard.

At the end of the day I am taking the RER A back (and probably sleeping the whole way). The next morning I have to get up early again.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3879/450pxdisneylandpariscasqy7.jpg

<u>Sat 7/21</u>

There is pretty much no point of detailing this day. It will be exactly the same thing as the day before. Another mobilis pass for 12.40€ ($16.30) is the only added expense since the ticket I bought yesterday is good for 2 days.

<u>Sun 7/22</u>

My brother arrives later this day, but first I've got the morning to myself. I haven't figured out what I'm going to do yet, but I think explore the area near where my friend lives and sleep in late are both very likely.

My brother arrives around 6pm. He is going to get to Boulogne the same way that I did when I arrived. We will grab a quick meal as he is probably tired from the travel at this point. Also, his psycho-planning has us getting up early as balls in the morning so I can't imagine doing much more than heading off to bed early.

<u>Mon 7/23</u>

After getting up and out of the house sometime around 7am, we are taking the Line 10 Metro to La Motte Picquet Grenelle where we switch to Line 8 and continue to the Concorde stop (travel time: 21 min) for the Place de la Concorde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Place_de_la_Concorde) (pictured below) in the 8th arrondissement of Paris. From what I understand, is it a big public square in Paris in which some 1,300 people were guillotined including Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI. The obelisk was a gift from Egypt and is over 3,000 years old.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Place_de_la_concorde_bordercropped.jpg

After a quick stop by the Place de la Concorde, we are going to talk a stroll through the Jardin des Tuileries near the site which is near the old Tuileries Palace that burned down in the 19th century. It is supposedly very beautiful and has a lot of classic and modern sculptures scattered about.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/wfha2000/paris2000/23-1336.jpg

Then it is off to the main attraction of the day, Musée du Louvre (http://www.louvre.fr/llv/commun/home_flash.jsp?bmLocale=en). I think the Louvre really doesn't require any explanation, but this is going to be almost our entire day. We intend to be here by the 9am opening time and don't have anything else planned until the museum closes at 6pm. Of course a lunch to break things up, but this is mostly going to be a day to explore and appreciate as much of the art that is in the Louvre as one day will allow without rushing. Entrance fee is 9€ ($11.85) per person.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Louvre_at_night_centered.jpg

At some point here we are getting dinner. The plan is to walk down avenue des Champs-Elysees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champs-%C3%89lys%C3%A9es) and go to the Arc de Triomphe (http://www.monum.fr/m_arc/fs_index.dml?lang=en). 8€ ($10.50) or 5€ ($6.60) for people 18-25 to go to the top of the Arc.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/ChampsElyseesArc.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Arc_De_Triumph_Flag.jpg

The last thing planned for the day is to check out Le Tour Eiffel (http://www.tour-eiffel.fr/teiffel/uk/) at night. We are going to take the Line 6 Metro 3 stops to Trocadero then cross the river to get to the Tour Eiffel. The lift to the top floor is 11.50€ ($15.15). Nothing planned after that, but going out for drinks is a possibility near where my friend lives.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Tour_eiffel_at_sunrise_from_the_trocadero.jpg/400px-Tour_eiffel_at_sunrise_from_the_trocadero.jpg

<u>Tue 7/24</u>

Note: For the next two days, we are going to be buying a Paris Museum Pass (http://www.parismuseumpass.fr) for 30€ ($39.55) which will give us entry into every cathedral and museum we are visiting during those 2 days. It will save us 6.60€ total. Visit the web site to find participating museums and to decide if it will save you money. I will still list the individual prices of each museum/cathedral for your reference.

Today is going to be spent in the 5th and 6th arrondissements of Paris. Get up at some point and take the Metro Line 10 to Cluny-La Sorbonne then switch to RER B by taking metro walkway to Saint-Michel Notre-Dame and and get off one stop later at Luxembourg (travel time: 29 min). Grab breakfast somewhere nearby and take a walk through the Jardin du Luxembourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jardin_du_Luxembourg) to relax and just take in the sights.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Luxemburg- Garden.jpg/800px-Luxemburg-Garden.jpg

Head over the Pantheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panth%C3%A9on%2C_Paris) to check out Foucault's Pendulum and a bunch of dead guys tombs. Entrance is 7.50€ ($9.90) or 4.50€ ($5.95) for persons aged 18-25. It opens at 10am and we probably want to be there around that time.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/Pantheon_paris.jpg


I'm expecting to spend about 2 hours at the Pantheon and since we are already in the Quartier Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartier_Latin) it probably isn't a bad idea to check out the streets and grab some lunch at one of the bistros here. Also check out the Fontaine St Michel and just hang out for a bit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Fountainstmichel.jpg/450px-Fountainstmichel.jpg

Afterwards, we are crossing the Seine River at Pont au Double to reach Ile de la Cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ile_de_la_Cite) and the reason we are there, Cathedral de Notre Dame de Paris (http://www.cathedraledeparis.com/EN/0.asp). We are going to get down like a hunchback and climb to the top of the towers for 6.50 ($8.60) or 4.80€ ($6.20) for people 18-25 and take some time to explore the art inside the Cathedral. I'm expecting another 2 hours inside the Cathedral.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f7/Notre_Dame_de_Paris%2C_front_view%2C_summer_2004.. JPG/452px-Notre_Dame_de_Paris%2C_front_view%2C_summer_2004.. JPG

While we are in Ile de Cite, we are going to check out La Sainte-Chapelle (http://www.monum.fr). This is apparently one of the most beautiful chapel interiors in existence. Tons of color in the lower chapel, but the upper chapel is the real treat and (pictured below) is filled with a ton of stained glass windows that are a sight to see. Entrance is 7.50€ ($9.90) or 4.80€ ($6.30) for people aged 18-25.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Sainte_Chapelle_-_Upper_level_1.jpg/399px-Sainte_Chapelle_-_Upper_level_1.jpg


Also going to check out La Conciergerie (http://www.monum.fr) while we are here. Entrance is 6.50€ ($8.60) or 4.50€ ($5.90) for people 18-25. A combined ticket with La Sainte-Chapelle apparently exists but I couldn't find more information about it (specifically, the price). If it is there, we will get it. For those that don't know, Conciergerie was originally built as a royal palace, but was later used as a prison during the French Revolution and as a place to torture people. Marie Antoinette's cell is here and is now a chapel. There are also a lot of exhibits/artifacts from the era here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1e/Conciergerie_Paris_DSC00684.jpg/800px-Conciergerie_Paris_DSC00684.jpg

Afterwards we are heading over to Saint-Germain-des-Prés for some dinner at Café de Flore while having a discussion about existentialism.

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/2774/mediumdsc02081sd6.jpg

After dinner we are going to head back to the Quartier Latin to go drinking at a bar before taking the night bus / taxi back to my friend's place.

<u>Wed 7/25</u>

Today is apparently museum hopping day. The first one we are visiting is Musee d'Orsay (http://www.musee-orsay.fr/ORSAY/orsaygb/HTML.NSF/By+Filename/mosimple+index?OpenDocument) which opens at 9:30 AM. Entrance fee is 7.50€ ($10.35) or 5.50€ ($7.25) for people aged 18-25. We get there by taking the Line 10 to Sevres-Babylone then switching to the Line 12 for 2 stops to Solferino (travel time: 28 min).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Orsay3.jpg/800px-Orsay3.jpg

After that, we are taking the Metro Line 12 from Solferino to Concorde then switching to Line 1 and continuing to the Hotel de Ville stop (travel time: 10min). We are here for the Centre Georges Pompidou (http://www.centrepompidou.fr/home30ans/index.html) to check out the modern art collection and library. Cost is 10€ ($13.20) or 8€ ($10.55) for people aged 18-25.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Centre_Pompidou_von_Sanmaritane.jpg/800px-Centre_Pompidou_von_Sanmaritane.jpg

Afterwards head over to the neighborhood of Le Marais and if time permits check out the Musée Picasso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_Picasso) which as the name leads you to believe, is the biggest collection of Picasso's works. Cost is 6.50€ ($8.55) or 4.50€ ($5.90) for people 18-25.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/800px-Musee_Picasso_Paris_Hof.jpg

Grab dinner somewhere in Marais and hang out at Place des Vosges in the early evening. Check out Victor Hugo's house. Eventually go out drinking/clubbing in Place de la Bastille. Night bus / metro / taxi back to my friend's house.

http://blog.fon.com/fr/archive/placedesvosges.jpg


<u>Thu 7/26</u>

We have a 14:00 flight out of Charles De Gaulle Airport on EasyJet bound for London. We are taking the RER B to the airport which costs 8.10€ ($10.65) and takes about 1:10 in travel time. We will probably be at the Metro station around 11:00 in the morning.

That's the end of our touring time in Paris. Any thoughts/comments on our plans? Things you think we should've skipped. Things that we missed? Good restaurants you may know around the areas we will be visiting? Looking forward to your feedback.


Hostel Cost: 0€ ($0) lol friendaments
Metro Cost: 27.10€ ($35.75) for him; 51.90€ ($68.40) for me; both including airport transportation
Museum/Cathedral/Attraction Cost: 55.50€ ($73.20) for him; 151.50€ ($199.75) for me including Disneyland Paris

<u>Total Cost Per Person:</u> 83€ ($109) for him; 203€ ($267) for me. Excludes food/drinks and flights.

[ahnuld]

dude, wtf, plz dont go to europe and have every hour planned. Just have a general idea of what you want to see in each city before you go.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
dude, wtf, plz dont go to europe and have every hour planned. Just have a general idea of what you want to see in each city before you go.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, wtf, doing way too much in way too short of a time.

also, dude, wtf not my idea.


Seriously, the problem is we really only have 3 full days in each city with one day on each side for traveling. We know the things we want to do in each city, the problem is budgeting our time correctly. First, the things have to be close to each other so we aren't looking like a bunch of retards wasting time getting lost or crossing town every time we want to go somewhere new. Second, we have to see what we are actually going to have time for so that we can make a general plan that allows certain things to be cut if we want. Without any sort of plan, it may end up we run out of time to see something we really wanted to see.

It may seem really stupid to some people to do it this way, and I definitely wouldn't do it if I was going by myself (mostly because I'd just take more time in each place and relax), but with a limited amount of time and a lot to see this really does work quite well. I'm also weird and enjoy planning a vacation almost as much as going on one. Certain vacations have certain objectives. When I take a cruise, I don't even think about it until the day I leave and just relax for a whole week. When I go backpacking to Europe for a month and want to see 7 cities with my brother who won't be back to Europe for a while, I want to make sure we are efficient as we can be.

And this really is to maximize efficiency. Trust me, we aren't the type of people who won't tell this itinerary to [censored] itself if we find something we'd rather do. But it is a good general idea that can be changed as we go along. And it ensures that at the very least we can see what we really want to.


Edit: I don't really know how to explain it any better. I'm 100% confident when the trip is over, we will look back and be glad we did things this way. Also, not every city is this detailed. Amsterdam, for instance, has like 3 places we want to go in the 3 days we are there and then a whole bunch of getting high, meeting people, walking around, and partying. Different objectives for different cities. Paris/London just happen to have a ton of things we want to see.

[mwalsh2020]

This sounds like an amazing trip. If you haven't already, I would recommend comparing prices at ryanair.com as they offer some great rates for purchases made 2 weeks ahead of time.

I would echo the sentiment of others that the time you will enjoy and remember most from this trip will not be the typical attractions that you are so anxious to see, but rather the odd stroll through a park, or a certain bistro that you take some time out to relax at.

As for Paris, Barcelona, or Berlin, I HIGHLY recommend Big Tire(?) Bike Tours. I think that's the name of the company. I did a bike tour with them last summer in Paris and it was a really fun, relaxing way to see the city in a couple of hours.

Not to hijack, but I really like this forum and I'd love to post my tentative itinerary for a European vacation that I am planning on taking with a few other friends. Would that be appropriate for this thread?

[Cancuk]

I know that you said that you want to go to DisneyLand in Paris, but i'm going to go ahead and beg you not to. Paris is one of the most exciting/amazing/beautiful cities in the world. Why would you want to spend your time in DisneyLand? It's not going to be THAT different that the California/Florida versions. Please don't do this.

[Cancuk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

second, you should be bringing a backpack and not suitcases. this may be obvious to you and everyone else but it is so important that it can't be left out. mobility is super, super important on this kind of trip. if your bags are a pain you will stay in one place for longer than you would otherwise. i made this mistake myself and hope you don't.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, this is super important. Nothing sucks more than to drag luggage all over Europe. I travel extremely light.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The less the better. Pack your bag then take half of it out. Seriously.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to hijack, but I really like this forum and I'd love to post my tentative itinerary for a European vacation that I am planning on taking with a few other friends. Would that be appropriate for this thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems pretty appropriate. Fine with me and hopefully I learn something from it.

[mwalsh2020]

Originally we were going to get hooked up by my friends parents who have a time share in Cabo which they were going to trade for weeks in Europe. Unfortunately, that all fell through so now we'll actually have to pay for accommodations. One good piece of news is that we will get 50 percent off a five day stay at a Marriot hotel in either London or Paris.

I'd like to plan the trip so that while we are staying in hostels for some of the time, we are able to alternate between them and hotels (for a good sleep/shower etc).

With that in mind, I'd like some help/feedback in constructing the best European vacation for my friends and I possible given roughly a $3k limit, not counting airfare. We are planning on staying for roughly 4 weeks or so if we can make the money last that long.

We have agreed on a few cities that are absolute must see for everyone in the group: London, Paris, Barcelona, Rome and Athens. Fairly standard. However, I've seen all of those except Barcelona and Athens and I'd like to see a bunch of other places, if only for a couple of days. I am aware of the danger of going to too many places and I want to balance out the negatives of hopping place to place with the positives of seeing a lot of Europe.

The second tier of cities that I/we would like to see is Madrid (and some time in Portugal would be great), Berlin, Copenhagen, Geneva, Prague and obviously some more time in Italy (probably Florence and Venice).

Also, my gf and I will be able to stay with some relatives in Ireland for around 4 days or so, and this will come at the end of our trip.

How many cities do you think its realistic to fit into a four week trip? I was tentatively thinking that it could go something like this:

week 1- london/paris
week 2- portugal/spain/monoco
week 3- rome (and any other good italian city as a day trip or two?) and athens
week 4- copenhagen, berlin, prague

Logistically, I think this might be too tight of a fit, although I'm honestly not sure as it depends on whether we are happy on trains looking at the countryside or if flying a lot of places doesn't add up to costs that are unbearable.

This may be an improved idea:

day 1-3 london
4-6 barcelona
5-7 madrid
8-10 paris
11-12 versailles (south of france also?)
13-14 geneva
15-16 copenhagen
17-18 berlin
19-20 prague
21-24 rome
25-28 other italy
29-31 athens

Sorry, I know this is a ton of rambling and I'm still working ideas around in my head. Let me know what you guys think. Any and all advice or suggestions are welcomed.

[TheMetetron]

Keep in mind that travel effectively kills a day for doing too much of anything unless you are leaving very earlier in the morning.

With our plan, the days we leave for a new city are pretty much rest and relaxation days because otherwise we would be doing too much.

We are spending 4 days in each city (a few only 3), but that really only gives us 3 full days to do things. If you are only in a city for 2 days, you really only have 1 and obviously won't see much of anything.

We are doing 7 cities in about 4 weeks and we are feeling the squeeze. Anything more is downright suicidal in my opinion.

Also, depending on how your itinerary works out, taking planes may actually be cheaper than traveling via train (it was for us). This has the added benefit of giving you more time in Europe.

I also think your $3k figure is horribly low for 4 weeks. For us, we are spending about $600 on hostels during that time (and spending 4 nights with a friend in Paris) and about $400 to travel in Europe. Add in another $100-200 per city for museum entrance, public transit, etc and we are spending around $2,000 before we eat any food or drink a drop of liquor. If you can eat in Europe for a month on $1,000, more power to you, but I think that is incredibly unrealistic especially if you ever go out at night.

Also, look into Athens more. It isn't all that great and was dropped from our itinerary after originally being included.

Drop Geneva, not worth going to on its own.

[mwalsh2020]

Very good points. One thing I'm particularly curious about is at what point it would be worth purchasing a Eurail pass. I used one last summer and was really disappointed that after paying around 500 bucks or whatever, I still got hit with hidden "reservation" fees for extended trips from Venice to Paris and Paris to Amsterdam. I suppose a combination of intra-Europe flights combined with eurail would probably allow for the greatest flexibility, but I'd like to do nothing but cheap, quick flights with occasional train usage if possible. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, either check your PMs or could you please let me know how on God's green earth your brother got a flight for 600 dollars? I've searched for hours and can only find 1000 dollar flights. Help! =)

[mwalsh2020]

What are peoples' thoughts on Lisbon, Portugal?

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
Barcelona is a much, much better place to go than Madrid unless you have something in Madrid you that you particularly want to see (Prado museum or Guernica in the Reina Sofia would be the two likely candidates).

I'm sure you will find very few that disagree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've lived in Madrid for half a year and I love the city very much, but I completely agree with this statement.

The biggest reason to go to Madrid as tourist, is the superb musea. Reina Sofia for modern art (Picasso, Miro, Dali), el Prado for classical art (Velasquez, Goya, el Greco, e.a.) and the fantastic Thyssen Bornemisza for a cross section of Art History (1 or 2 pieces from almost every artist that matters).

Food &amp; nightlife is very good as well, but you kinda need to know the city before you really know where to go.

There are some great sights near Madrid though, such as Segovia, el Escorial and Toledo. They could all be a reason to go, but you'd be visiting Madrid to actually visit another city. Which is no problem of course, but a bit more of a hassle.

Other cities in Spain are much more wonderful in themselves, such as Granada (Alhambra) or Sevilla.

Barcelona is a truly great visit.

So in conclusioin, I'd only visit Madrid if you know very well beforehand why you are visiting that city, otherwise you may be dissappointed.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

I lived in Athens for 3 months. It's the quintessential city that doesn't have a lot of traditional sightseeing to do, is not very pretty, but is an amazing place. Great food, great nightlife, great culture, very relaxing.

[Marnixvdb]

btw it surprises me a bit to see Versailles, Geneva and Copenhagen on the list? Nice cities, but wouldnt be my first choices. I live in Europe (the Netherlands) and I've never been to those cities, and even though I would like to visit them some time, I wouldn't include them on a Europe round trip. What are your reasons for picking them?

Re: trains/flight

If you get good ticket deals, flying can be less expensive than traintickets.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

Versailles isn't really a city, more like a day trip from Paris. still, I wouldn't go there unless I had 7 days in Paris, unless I had some particularly strong interest in landscaping or near-modern castles.

I've only been to Copenhagen once, it's fine. more to see and do in other cities I think.

flying can indeed be a good deal, but be real careful with RyanAir. lots of their airports can be very difficult/expensive to get to/from (like Milan Bergamo). Some are fine, like London Stansted. others are a pain but mayb worth it, like Brussels Charleroi.

basically, for travel within the 'core' of Western Europe, trains are probably easier. From southern Italy, Greece, Ireland, England, or places like that, flying can be a great choice.

[britspin]

Metetron- I know this might sound like a stupid idea, but if I'm around at the time, and you're planning to visit London around the 27th July, I'd be more than happy to show you round Parliament (I work in Parliament and have a security pass, so we can go to places the tourist guides won't go).

It'd have be on a weekday, though, so might disrupt your planning. PM me or post here if interested...

cheers.

[Shadowrun]

[ QUOTE ]
Metetron- I know this might sound like a stupid idea, but if I'm around at the time, and you're planning to visit London around the 27th July, I'd be more than happy to show you round Parliament (I work in Parliament and have a security pass, so we can go to places the tourist guides won't go).

It'd have be on a weekday, though, so might disrupt your planning. PM me or post here if interested...

cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you like v for vendetta?

[Im_Your_ATM]

Before this thread dies out I thought I'd try to get some recommendations as well.

On June 24th I'll be in Tanzania for Kili climb and safari with a friend who is volunteering there. I'm debating if I should continue traveling from the 14th to the 24th, go to Tanzania and volunteer with him on the 15th or go back to the U.S. and fly back again. #3 option seems dumb.

Below is my friend's itinerary for us (he's been to Europe unlike me). I'd like to mix in the rafting that one of the posters mentioned but other than that I don't have enough knowledge to critique the proposed itinerary so please give some input.

One other question: if I stay abroad what is the best way to get my Kili climbing gear over to Tanzania? I don't want to carry it my whole Europe trip. 1. ship it by itself 2. send it over with my friend leaving from NY on the 24th even if it might be his third piece of luggage and must pay $$$ 3. carry it you baby

I can go between June 2 and June 15. Here is what I came up with so far:

June 2- Miami-Athens (Spend 3 days there going around the Islands)
June 4- Athens-Berlin
June 6- Berlin-Geneva
June 8- Geneva-Amsterdam (From here we can get back to Athens in the below way, or try to get the return ticket from elsewhere)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 11- Amsterdam-Milan
June 14- Milan-Athens

The total cost up until Amsterdam is $265 with taxes, and all the way back to Athens is $417 with taxes. Turns out my frequent flier ticket won't work for this trip because it is the busiest time of the year, but I can use the free complimentary first class ticket and we can split the cost, or try to find some cheap airfare. Looks like it'll be over $1,000 either way.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Metetron- I know this might sound like a stupid idea, but if I'm around at the time, and you're planning to visit London around the 27th July, I'd be more than happy to show you round Parliament (I work in Parliament and have a security pass, so we can go to places the tourist guides won't go).

It'd have be on a weekday, though, so might disrupt your planning. PM me or post here if interested...

cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did this with a friend who is an elected official in the Danish parliament and I thought it was awesome. I'd definitely be interested.

July 27th is a Friday, would it be possible to do it that day? I didn't think tours were open yet at that time so we didn't really have plans to go inside, but if it can be done that'd be cool.

What do you do there? They are fine with you bringing visitors? PM me and we can figure out the details.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

It's getting a bit messy, so don't really know what to comment/which advice to give. Geneva, really a [censored] city as in city for partying, staying in hotel, going to nice places, also a lot of people only speak French and people are generally arrogant and it is dirty. But there are some informative things (maybe not what you want to do in your holiday). You can visit the UN headquarter or the Red Cross headquarter or CERN and get good info about a lot of stuff. It is also a great base for a road trip part of the journey if you like nature, if you head southwest you drive into some of the most beautiful parts of Europe in France. It is nice in winter for skiing, but it is more beautiful in summer, absolutely fantastic. Again a matter of taste.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Here is a site with pictures of the Alps around Grenoble (close to Geneva):

Grenoble Cycling pages (http://www.grenoblecycling.com/the-Alps.htm)

This one, just amazing, almost feel like going there tomorrow morning thinking about it:
Col du Galibier (http://www.grenoblecycling.com/Col-Galibier.htm)

[Arnfinn Madsen]

To the newest arrivals, slow down your speed, remember that when you go from Athens to Berlin or something similar everything is totally different, your mind needs some time to get adjusted to the new place, after a few days you start to feel the vibe more, then it is stupid to have to start thinking of packing bags, the greatest times are almost always from day 3-4 and on in the city/area.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
It's getting a bit messy, so don't really know what to comment/which advice to give. Geneva, really a [censored] city as in city for partying, staying in hotel, going to nice places, also a lot of people only speak French and people are generally arrogant and it is dirty. But there are some informative things (maybe not what you want to do in your holiday). You can visit the UN headquarter or the Red Cross headquarter or CERN and get good info about a lot of stuff. It is also a great base for a road trip part of the journey if you like nature, if you head southwest you drive into some of the most beautiful parts of Europe in France. It is nice in winter for skiing, but it is more beautiful in summer, absolutely fantastic. Again a matter of taste.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely loved Geneva and took a trip to Lausanne but it definitely doesn't seem like something most people would want to go to. Hard to get by without speaking French and it is very dirty. I'd recommend Zurich over Geneva if you really feel the need to go to Switzerland. Much better for partying.

[Marnixvdb]

In Switzerland, the Thermen in Vals (http://www.therme-vals.ch/) (near Chur, quite a hassle to get there) is maybe the most beautiful place you can visit. The bathing house is one of the most intriguing recent pieces of architecture in Europe, set in a wonderful small village deep in the Alps. Would be a perfect place to refresh yourselves for a day or two, even though I doubt it would fit well into any itinerary.

[DONKTARDO]

i think you should go to europe forever because no one here like you.

[mwalsh2020]

Ok, new plan. Instead of viewing the trip as four weeks, I guess I'm going to have to plan it for only 4k (including the flight there). Therefore, the trip may be closer to three weeks depending on how expensive things are.

I did a rough calculation of flights yesterday and it came to $290 for London&gt;Barcelona&gt;Madrid&gt;Paris&gt;Rome&gt;Berlin&gt;Dublin (not counting the train that will be used to get from Barcelona to Madrid. Using the hostel numbers from the OP, it seems that accomodations will run approximately $30 per person per day. All in all, it will be roughly 1000 for intra europe travel and accommodations.

Assuming the flight to Europe costs 1k, that leaves me with 2k for food, museum entraces, incidentals etc. I think we are planning on going out to one fairly nice restaurant per country and trying to eat decently but cheaply the rest of the trip. Any recommendations on how much we should expect to pay in food costs on a per day basis? How about museum entrances and the like? Any help on this matter is greatly appreciated because the 4k total cap is now more of a consideration rather than staying for a set amount of time.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[TheMetetron]

I'd say $50 per day for food is close to correct unless you are eating the cheapest thing you can find at every possible meal. If you are going out every night to a decent place, add more. This is mostly for like cafe food and similar.

Drinks are going to kill you though. I'd be wary of this.

[SoCalRugger]

What are opinions on Monaco? Worth spending a day in?

I'm doing 4.5 months in Europe, but I'm seeing some rugby world cup matches at the end of the trip, which means I need to have a schedule in place so I can make a specific city on a specific date so I don't miss them. Right now, it looks like I can do an overnight train from Venice to Monaco, spend the day in Monaco, then do an overnight train from Monaco to Barcelona. Or I could skip Monaco and just fly from Venice to Barcelona for $60 and give myself an extra night in Barcelona (I already have 3 full days, 2 nights planned for Barcelona). Thoughts?

[mwalsh2020]

How did you come up with the 100-200 dollars of museum entrances per city? Is this a very rough estimate or is there no chance we can really do it any cheaper?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
How did you come up with the 100-200 dollars of museum entrances per city? Is this a very rough estimate or is there no chance we can really do it any cheaper?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the estimate we had for museum entrances, transport to/from the airport, and public transit within a city. Those were the exact prices for Paris ($100) and London ($200).

[Thremp]

SoCal,

Monaco is awesome. Check out all the topless MILFs on beach.

[mwalsh2020]

If I had two days to spend in Munich or Vienna, which do you guys think is better?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
If I had two days to spend in Munich or Vienna, which do you guys think is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Vienna is more beautiful and more interesting. If you haven't been to "Eastern" Europe, from Wien you can also take a quick trip into Bratislava and see the contrast.

[mwalsh2020]

My apologies for the last inquiry regarding Vienna and Munich, since neither easyjet nor ryanair fly to those locations. Instead, we are considering three choices in Germany: Berlin, Hamburg and Frankfurt. We REALLY want to see at least one old, cool German castle. I know that Berlin is great for 20th century history, but we'd like to see a castle so if anyone is familiar with the geography of Germany, which of these three places would provide the best combination of providing a good taste of Germany while allowing us to see a castle. Unfortunately, we only have 3 days for this part of the trip.

[rudolphf]

Beware of ryanair, I know its all about getting from a to b but if theres a problem and there often is with these, theyll be of no help whatsoever. Also they always fly to an airport situated in what can only loosely be labeled the city theyre claiming to fly to.
http://www.airlinequality.com/Airlines/FR.htm

[mwalsh2020]

I used them this past summer and didn't have a problem, but then again, I didn't use them for very many cities. We are visiting London, Dublin, Paris, Lisbon, Barcelona, Rome, Venice, and somewhere in Germany but are not planning using Ryan air for Lisbon because they don't go there. Any of these other cities have an airport that is way far away that Ryan air uses?

[rudolphf]

Dublin is fine, theres only one airport.
Barcelona - Ryanair fly to Girona not Barcelona, it can be a nightmare getting public transport into Barcelona as the airport isnt used much, easyjet fly to Barcelona, much better option if its available. If youre going from Dublin to Barcelona AerLingus are your best bet, also check their prices wherever you fly from Dublin.
Paris - I dont know Paris but the Ryanair flight is listed as Paris (Beauvais) have a look where Beauvais is, its certainly not the main airport in Paris, same goes for the other locations, they put the name of the airport in brackets beside the city name, google the bracketed bit.

[RoundTower]

Beauvais is outside Paris a bit, the main way to get there is via shuttle bus which takes about 45 min and costs about 10 euro.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
My apologies for the last inquiry regarding Vienna and Munich, since neither easyjet nor ryanair fly to those locations. Instead, we are considering three choices in Germany: Berlin, Hamburg and Frankfurt. We REALLY want to see at least one old, cool German castle. I know that Berlin is great for 20th century history, but we'd like to see a castle so if anyone is familiar with the geography of Germany, which of these three places would provide the best combination of providing a good taste of Germany while allowing us to see a castle. Unfortunately, we only have 3 days for this part of the trip.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW Bayern has much more visible pre-20th history including medieval charming towns and castles (it wasn't so devastated during the war), so I would choose Munich if that is possible, and then rent a car. Then you can also visit "Disney":

http://www.neuschwanstein.de/images/neuschwanstein_start.jpg

Link (http://www.neuschwanstein.de/english/index.htm)

and Regensburg (100 km on the Autobahn is 45 mins or less):
http://www.wissens-quiz.de/wissen/bildung/media/8/88/210704_regensburg_neupfarrplatz_aus_richtung_kassi anspla.jpg
Regensburg (http://www.regensburg.de/tourismus/international/english/index.shtml)

Divert from the Autobahn whenever you are hungry and find a Gaststätte in a small village, they are usually very cosy and have very good, cheap food.

EDIT: That last picture did not really do the city justice, it is much much nicer.

[bpc009]

[ QUOTE ]
I used them this past summer and didn't have a problem, but then again, I didn't use them for very many cities. We are visiting London, Dublin, Paris, Lisbon, Barcelona, Rome, Venice, and somewhere in Germany but are not planning using Ryan air for Lisbon because they don't go there. Any of these other cities have an airport that is way far away that Ryan air uses?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know your exact itinerary, but it sounds like you're bouncing all over the place and don't just have one push off point. If that's correct, then I highly suggest expanding beyond Ryanair and looking at the other discount airlines as well. There is a plethora to choose from, and could put Vienna and Munich back in play.

[mwalsh2020]

thats a great idea... i've only heard of and used ryanair and easyjet, could you recommend the names of others?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
thats a great idea... i've only heard of and used ryanair and easyjet, could you recommend the names of others?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are very many of them, one way to go can be to look at an airport's website and see which airlines travel where.

[mwalsh2020]

are there no castles anywhere near Berlin, Frankfurt, or Hamburg?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
are there no castles anywhere near Berlin, Frankfurt, or Hamburg?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty, but won't be so much history besides that. I haven't been to any, so I don't know what is nice, but I remember seeing some nice ones west of Frankfurt.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

Here you can probably find a nice one west of Frankfurt:

Castles (http://www.welterbe-mittelrheintal.de/index.php?id=35&amp;L=3)

[ArturiusX]

Anyone have any information on Moscow? I'm flying in there for 4 days, I have no hotel at this stage, and need to apply for a visa. Any advice?

[Chillee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How did you come up with the 100-200 dollars of museum entrances per city? Is this a very rough estimate or is there no chance we can really do it any cheaper?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the estimate we had for museum entrances, transport to/from the airport, and public transit within a city. Those were the exact prices for Paris ($100) and London ($200).

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be a bit much to me regarding Paris.
The Louvre cost 10€/day/person, and almost the same for Musée d'Orsay.

[mwalsh2020]

We are now going to a German city called dortmund, and I was wondering if anyone has any specific recommendations for stuff to do there. Also, visiting Prague for a few days and would love recommendations, thanks.

[1957 Chevy]

I've spent time in most of the cities you're visiting, but out of all of them, know the most about Amsterdam. You mentioned you were interested in "getting ridiculously high". Here's a quick rundown on some coffeeshops, from my perspective:

Amnesia: Between Leidsplein and the Dam Square, it's my favorite coffeeshop. Very chill spot. Great for spending afternoons. Nice clientile full of friendly regulars, board games constantly being played, and some great organically grown weed.

DampKring (spelling?): Up the street from Leidsplein just past the Flower Market. Really cool atmosphere with crazy East Indian/Alice in Wonderland?? kind of decor. HUGE menu with all organic weed. Awesome music all the time and a full bar. I would buy all my weed from there if I were you. Only downside is it gets VERY crowded, especially at night.

La Trujillo: Close to Amnesia. Good coffeshop for mornings/early afternoons. Family owned with a great sandwhich menu.

The Grey Area: Just around the corner from Amnesia. Amsterdam's only American owned coffeeshop. Extremely small. Only visit to chat with one of the owners (who are very cool) and buy an "American style eighth".

The Dolphins: Just off Leidsplein. Not as good as it used to be, but still fun with cool decor. Don't buy weed from there though, it's no good. I may just have a sentimental attachment to the place, because it was one of the first coffeeshops I ever visited. But it's worth a stop.

If you're staying in the Bulldog, you'll be close to the Red Light District. A fun night is starting at the bottom (northeast end) of the Red Light and working your way southwest through all the bars until you make it to the Dam Square. While you're there make sure you catch a Live Sex Show at the place that has a giant "penis" fountain in the front (can't remember the exact name). It's not as sleazy as you'd think. It's more of a "show" than actual sex (although the definitely do have sex onstage). It's a bit pricey (30 eruos), but you can watch for as long as you want (they repeat the shot over and over with slight variations) so you can get your money's worth.

The Rembrandtplein is also a cool, often overlooked area of the city with nice affordable restaurants and cool bars. While you're there, check out the Ice Bar. I can't remember what the actual name is of the bar, but it's in the middle of the square and basically it is a room that is below freezing. Everything is made of ice. You are given a parka and gloves and served drinks in giant blocks of ice. Pretty fun.

Definitely visit the Van Gough Musem and Reijksmusem. If you want it to, that could take three days in itself. Skip the TroppenMuseum, but give the Zoo a visit.

Quick Tips: Buy a 15 eruo stripcard right when you get there. You use it for trams. Don't stamp it unless you're asked to (which is rare), and that will take care of your public transportation for the length of your stay.

The trams stop running around 12:30am so try and make your way toward your hotel so you can walk home at the end of the night. Otherwise you can take a night bus which costs 3.50 euros to take you pretty much anywhere in the city.

Don't order a glass of water in a restaurant. It comes from a bottle and will cost, on average, 4.60 eruos. A big beer in a restaurant usally costs 4.50, so just drink that.

Be alert when walking through the red light disctrict late at night, and try to avoid cutting through one of the many alleyways.

Leidsplein is overrated, but an easy place to go for an always active nightlife.

Don't buy weed at the Bulldog, even though it'll be easy because you're staying there. Their weed sucks.

When you go into a coffeeshop, you can smoke your own weed, but you have to order a drink (not a law, just the code of ethics). Order a pear Looza (juice). They're awesome.

Have a blast and take pics!

[TheMetetron]

There are Ice Bar's in other cities as well. I've been to the one in Stockholm. It was interesting once, but a fairly big waste of time in general.

I'll keep your other recommendations in mind. I have a feeling we will go a bit more towards the psychedelics than marijuana in our drug choice though. Some "hard drugs" may or may not be on the menu depending on our mood.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
Beauvais is outside Paris a bit, the main way to get there is via shuttle bus which takes about 45 min and costs about 10 euro.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but keep in mind CDG isn't exactly in downtown Paris either. if I was backpcking these days, I would do RyanAir and Easyjet for all long hauls. it also makes going to southern Italy/Greece/Scandinavia much easier to get to from the standard Paris/Madrid/Munich central Europe itinerary

[TheUsher]

dude i'm in the middle of a europe trip right now for a month and i could def tell you that any sort of strict plan is dumb. it's ok as a general guideline on what you'd want to do but things come up where you might want to extend/shorten your stay in a city.

i'm travelling w/another 2+2er right now and we'd both admit that having no plan on what to do is one of the most satisfying feelings ever. it's fun being able to do whatever you want and randomly getting into weird situations while in another country. think of it like this.. if you could pick the easy way to do something or another way where it might still work out.. which would you rather do? so far we've been picking the latter option and it's been amazing.

oh btw, wtf, $750 for 25 nights in hostels? we're getting owned then for what we're paying per night in the places we've been at so far.

i'd def be worried though bout what type of places you're staying in because even a regular room in decent hotels here is 8x8 or something insanely small w/no space to walk around.

oh and also.. budget for europe? that's no fun. it's going to be hard to stick to. you're going to be shocked when you see some of the prices for stuff here. like in london it's 2.3x+ the cost of what it might be back home.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

TheUsher,
I think it is mainly a question about how you travel. If you do what you feel like, go where you want you often end up paying much for hotel rooms, rental cars etc., but whereas if you plan as TheMetetron it is much cheaper. I would think the "no plan"-way costs at least twice as much, if you arrive in a city late in the night or over a dinner decide to stay there, many places the hostels are already closed and many cheap hotels booked up. It is also hard to orientate wrt prices for different alternatives some places (try to make a 55 year old grumpy woman who speaks only Polish explain you how you can get a discount /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) so to avoid hassle you end up taking the first thing that looks good regardless of price. It is priceless though /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[TheMetetron]

Madsen said what I was going to. I've done things both ways. I just got back from Chile and had absolutely no plan. I intend to go back there for 3 weeks next year and just wander around doing whatever looks fun, but that certainly isn't for all. I also have way more time than most people to do as a please.

With my brother coming along, it makes so much more sense to plan things out. He knows a lot of things that he really wants to see and would be upset if he didn't. He also makes only $50k per year and doesn't have an asston of money to be throwing around. Hence, some planning is required.

Also, I've lived in some of the most expensive European countries in the past, trust me I'm aware of what things cost. The key to big cities is not get tourist ripped off by paying tourist prices for meals and other things. Learning to read menus in languages other than English is a hugely +EV play for eating cheaply in Europe.

[TheMetetron]

Also, you are getting ripped off at hostels if you are paying double what I am. All of the hostels I'm staying at are at least 80%+ on hostelbookers and have gotten a ton of positive reviews.

[EmpireMaker2]

skip berlin go to munich, skip madrid go to barcelona, skip milan go to florence or rome, unless ur really into fashion.

[steel108]

Sorry to bump, but TR??????????? I'm going to Europe for 30 days in December and would like to hear your reviews.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to bump, but TR??????????? I'm going to Europe for 30 days in December and would like to hear your reviews.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be in the travel forum sometime this week.

[steel108]

A lot of people are saying that a plan isn't good for traveling in Europe, but in order to save money on airfare within Europe, you have to buy tickets early. How do I reconcile the two?

[AMT]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people are saying that a plan isn't good for traveling in Europe, but in order to save money on airfare within Europe, you have to buy tickets early. How do I reconcile the two?

[/ QUOTE ]


get the sure things down (France, Amsterdam, somewhere in italy im sure, london, etc...) and plan convenient train rides to neighboring countries (cheap and convenient; also generally cheap to travel within europe)

[cwsiggy]

Is there a reason you aren't even considering Prague?? (don'tknow if that airline travels there though)

Skip Berlin and go to Prague.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a reason you aren't even considering Prague?? (don'tknow if that airline travels there though)

Skip Berlin and go to Prague.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure who this is meant to be for, but Berlin was by far one of the coolest cities I visited in Europe. I'd be very upset if I skipped it. Of all the cities I visited London &amp; Amsterdam would've been the first 2 to go. Rome is 3rd except it is pretty cool to visit once... I just don't see anything to see there after you visit once.

[cwsiggy]

Oh well -It was meant for OP and I missed the non Eastern Europe part.

[delaware99]

new to the thread, Looking for some advice on the Greek Isles.

Initial thoughts for my honeymoon in October '08 is a 3 day visit to Athens then 5-7 day cruise around Greece and Turkey.

Anyone do this or something similar? Any thoughts, or advice would be great.